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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 04:21:33 pm

Title: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 04:21:33 pm
The Blue Planet team is proud to present FreeSpace Blue, a gently remastered rebuild of FreeSpace 2!

TAG missiles work, and oh man are they good. Dialog you've never heard before has been unlocked.

Slaying Ravana doesn't suck (as much). High Noon is a knock-down slugging match between titans, and you get to play spotter for the Colossus' full beam armament. Their Finest Hour makes some kind of sense. A Game of TAG is a little less frustrating. Your Vasudan wingmen stopped showing up with Akhetons.

The Morningstar and Circe are viable weapons, and the Lamprey, well, it might be...

If you want an excuse to replay FreeSpace 2, you've got it.



Play it right now! Included in Blue Planet. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90802.0)



We're actively looking for more suggestions, ideas, and things to fix! This is a beginning, not an end. You've got sixteen years of experience with this game. Speak up!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 03, 2015, 05:43:06 pm
Make the PromR useful? (I know you have a nice fluff explanation for BP but as a design element in FS2 it sucks.) For that matter, make the Akheton worthwhile (a la the Scalpel?)
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Luis Dias on November 03, 2015, 05:45:37 pm
"Included in Blue Planet"?


INCLU
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Luis Dias on November 03, 2015, 05:52:33 pm
I'm definitely playing it.

Like... ahhh... next month?!?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 06:05:35 pm
Make the PromR useful? (I know you have a nice fluff explanation for BP but as a design element in FS2 it sucks.) For that matter, make the Akheton worthwhile (a la the Scalpel?)

Buffing the Prom R would buff the NTF against new pilots, which is dangerous. An Akheton buff could work!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 03, 2015, 06:10:04 pm
Give the NTF the PromR#****ty, then. Loading the PromR is a really easy and obvious thing to try and it takes way too long to realise that it's worse than the Subach in every single way.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Goober5000 on November 03, 2015, 06:27:37 pm
Ooh.  I am intrigued. :yes:

If you want an excuse to replay FreeSpace 2, you've got it.

Or an excuse to procrastinate. :nod:
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 03, 2015, 06:53:22 pm
I'm very busy with Freelancer right now (single-player mode) and so I wish to remain focused on it for the time being. When I'm done though, I will definitely be playing this! I have played the original FreeSpace 2 single-player campaign so many times that I am sure to notice all of the differences - at least for the way I play it and for the weapons I prefer. I'm especially looking forward to the unlocked dialog.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Klaustrophobia on November 04, 2015, 09:45:03 am
Ya know, over the years while playing I've had many, MANY thoughts of "why didn't they just....", but for the life of me I can't recall a single one of them now.  Will post if any come back to me.


Oh, one just struck me.  Capital ships being invulnerable to fighter weapons.  Uhg.  I get the idea, and a reduction factor would certainly be appropriate, but I think it would be better to still have the ability to kill things given enough time with primaries.  For example the Moloch in the nebula mission where you have to protect the Aquitaine as it is repaired (I really suck at remembering mission names).
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Snarks on November 04, 2015, 10:40:17 am
Do something about the Maxim and Trebuchet? Those weapons always felt just a little too effective against capital ships. In return, make the new GTA bombers actually more agile to represent their fluff.

Maybe it's asking too much, but I would like to see the FS2 era ships actually feel superior to the FS1 era ships. It always bothered me that the new GTVA gear wasn't actually that much better (arguably worst in some cases) than the old buckets of junk the NTF are flying, despite all the dialogue claiming otherwise. Obviously this would make the gameplay a lot easier, so I'm not crossing fingers. At the very least, make the Serapis better because that thing is held together by duct tape.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 10:44:31 am
The Maxim now has an ammo cap to make it slightly less degenerate. We could look at further nerfs.

I think the Treb is fine since it has counter plays by the late BP2 era.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 04, 2015, 11:39:15 am
You're thinking of Argonautica. I think that fighters being unable to destroy corvettes and higher is completely fine, their primaries can only damage the hull surface, they can't penetrate deep enough to destroy the whole ship.

The new and working TAGs will give you an easier time destroying that Moloch as they will cause a massive beam barrage from friendly warships.

Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 11:47:00 am
I'd be up to buff the Boanerges as long as the buffs fit its role - an attack bomber with no turret. Speed and maneuverability would be top picks, as would shield/HP. Burner sustain is a great way to buff a ship without overly changing its dogfight behavior.

I don't want to touch the Piranha because so many warships use it.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 04, 2015, 11:58:52 am
I know its a bit more work, but why not make the capships use some kind of piranha#cap version instead thats the same as the current useless one is right now.

The Piranha desperately needs some kind of buff or functionality rework.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Lorric on November 04, 2015, 12:05:00 pm
I don't know if you could do anything about it or if it would be too radical, but something of a disappointment for me in Freespace 2 are the missions where by far the most effective strategy is to just sit there pumping trebs at things. It's effective but it isn't any fun. I've also never liked the feel of that myself. If Trebs are so effective, why bother with anything else? You'd think capships would just launch trebs at things. Especially with the presence of the maxim in the game.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 12:09:18 pm
I know its a bit more work, but why not make the capships use some kind of piranha#cap version instead thats the same as the current useless one is right now.

The Piranha desperately needs some kind of buff or functionality rework.

I guess the question is whether a Piranha#bomber or Piranha#turret is less work. Probably the bomber edition.

It would need a rerole as a defensive weapon, and I'm not sure instantly how to do that without turning it into the Slammer. Salt the spawn with a few harder-hitting, more agile submunitions?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 04, 2015, 12:24:00 pm
Launching trebs is a FOO strategy. Killing a whole wing of heavy bombers that take 4 trebs to kill can be done with only trebs but it's almost always faster to take an interceptor, max out your engines and wreck them close-range with primaries and tempests.
Trebs are rarely the 'best' strategy, but it's very easy and effective enough in most cases, especially on lower difficulties.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: jr2 on November 04, 2015, 01:51:52 pm
Ya know, over the years while playing I've had many, MANY thoughts of "why didn't they just....", but for the life of me I can't recall a single one of them now.  Will post if any come back to me.


Oh, one just struck me.  Capital ships being invulnerable to fighter weapons.  Uhg.  I get the idea, and a reduction factor would certainly be appropriate, but I think it would be better to still have the ability to kill things given enough time with primaries.  For example the Moloch in the nebula mission where you have to protect the Aquitaine as it is repaired (I really suck at remembering mission names).

How about kicking in the reduction rate at 5% hull strength or so?  Basically you can reduce the larger ship to floating scrap, but actually penetrating to do critical damage will take a really long time with fighter weapons.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 04, 2015, 03:20:00 pm
Please align all the briefing grids. It bugs me tremendously how sloppy  :v: has been with this  :p

Edit: Can you fix this mission so this doesnt happen?
(http://i1054.photobucket.com/albums/s490/kingspoon/Junk/screen0768_zpszzklm8hq.jpg~original)
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aesaar on November 04, 2015, 03:39:22 pm
Oh, one just struck me.  Capital ships being invulnerable to fighter weapons.  Uhg.  I get the idea, and a reduction factor would certainly be appropriate, but I think it would be better to still have the ability to kill things given enough time with primaries.  For example the Moloch in the nebula mission where you have to protect the Aquitaine as it is repaired (I really suck at remembering mission names).
I completely disagree with this.  The idea that a lone fighter could kill a 2-3km destroyer (or even an 800m corvette) with nothing but the FS2 equivalent to 20mm guns is just dumb.   Hell, I advocated giving all destroyers the supercap flag and only giving that flag to bombs and other dedicated antiship weapons.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 04, 2015, 03:47:06 pm
Ya know, over the years while playing I've had many, MANY thoughts of "why didn't they just....", but for the life of me I can't recall a single one of them now.  Will post if any come back to me.


Oh, one just struck me.  Capital ships being invulnerable to fighter weapons.  Uhg.  I get the idea, and a reduction factor would certainly be appropriate, but I think it would be better to still have the ability to kill things given enough time with primaries.  For example the Moloch in the nebula mission where you have to protect the Aquitaine as it is repaired (I really suck at remembering mission names).

No, you can enable the Aquataine to kill the Moloch; you just have to play the level on Medium or higher difficulty and you have to stay within range of the Moloch because you're providing sensor support.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Lorric on November 04, 2015, 04:29:14 pm
Oh, one just struck me.  Capital ships being invulnerable to fighter weapons.  Uhg.  I get the idea, and a reduction factor would certainly be appropriate, but I think it would be better to still have the ability to kill things given enough time with primaries.  For example the Moloch in the nebula mission where you have to protect the Aquitaine as it is repaired (I really suck at remembering mission names).
I completely disagree with this.  The idea that a lone fighter could kill a 2-3km destroyer (or even an 800m corvette) with nothing but the FS2 equivalent to 20mm guns is just dumb.   Hell, I advocated giving all destroyers the supercap flag and only giving that flag to bombs and other dedicated antiship weapons.
I also like the fact fighters can't kill the bigger ships.

The Moloch mission is a pain, but it can still be EMP'd to death.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 04:36:51 pm
Ya know, over the years while playing I've had many, MANY thoughts of "why didn't they just....", but for the life of me I can't recall a single one of them now.  Will post if any come back to me.


Oh, one just struck me.  Capital ships being invulnerable to fighter weapons.  Uhg.  I get the idea, and a reduction factor would certainly be appropriate, but I think it would be better to still have the ability to kill things given enough time with primaries.  For example the Moloch in the nebula mission where you have to protect the Aquitaine as it is repaired (I really suck at remembering mission names).

No, you can enable the Aquataine to kill the Moloch; you just have to play the level on Medium or higher difficulty and you have to stay within range of the Moloch because you're providing sensor support.

Now you can TAG her too.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 04, 2015, 04:46:09 pm
Do something about the Maxim

The Maxim is almost certainly intentional, given the point at which you get it in the campaign you're flying a Serapis and the caps will eat you alive if you have to close. Literally the first mission you get it it's there so you don't have to close with a bunch of highly explosive gas miners.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 04, 2015, 05:37:20 pm
Ya know, over the years while playing I've had many, MANY thoughts of "why didn't they just....", but for the life of me I can't recall a single one of them now.  Will post if any come back to me.


Oh, one just struck me.  Capital ships being invulnerable to fighter weapons.  Uhg.  I get the idea, and a reduction factor would certainly be appropriate, but I think it would be better to still have the ability to kill things given enough time with primaries.  For example the Moloch in the nebula mission where you have to protect the Aquitaine as it is repaired (I really suck at remembering mission names).

No, you can enable the Aquataine to kill the Moloch; you just have to play the level on Medium or higher difficulty and you have to stay within range of the Moloch because you're providing sensor support.

Now you can TAG her too.

hahaha yeah! "Tag! You're it, b*tch! Go for it, Aquataine!"
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Hotshot05 on November 04, 2015, 06:06:15 pm
In the Mission "Proving Grounds" seems to be a Bug.

I complete the Mission with the Aquitaine escaping and get a successfull Debriefing.
However i cant go to the next Mission. It keeps on telling me that i failed the Mission.


sadpanda.jpg
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: niffiwan on November 04, 2015, 06:11:42 pm
IIRC that's been fixed recently, please rerun the installer or manually install the current bpc-core file.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 06:18:12 pm
Correct, that got hot fixed.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 04, 2015, 06:28:12 pm
Major complaint:
BP's team hatred for ambient lighting.
I already noticed Fs2 blue being so absurdly dark (it made me increase my not already insignificant launcher ambient light setting from 120 to 140, to little avail), but I just realized its because ambient lighting is set to 0 in the mission files. (Unlike their retail values).
It makes things so incredibly hard to see that I simply cannot comprehend why this is considered a good thing by anyone. Please increase these values!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Megawolf492 on November 04, 2015, 07:39:23 pm
We're actively looking for more suggestions, ideas, and things to fix! This is a beginning, not an end. You've got sixteen years of experience with this game. Speak up!

I don't know how much of the storyline you would like to touch, but there is this:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=86136

Also, maybe fixing the command briefing where the Vasudan commander says "The Colossus sustained moderate damage" after High Noon, even though it didn't get a scratch (given, that could have been fixed with your in-mission changes, but that always bothered me).
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Mars on November 04, 2015, 08:55:34 pm
It sustained damage driving its cannons hard enough to destroy the Sathanas.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 09:23:26 pm
And got owned by the Sathanas' secondary beam batteries :blueplanet:

I have no idea why the ambient lighting is zero, I can look at that. What the ****. I literally used the retail missions!

First, I'd like to say that I love the FS2 plot. FS1 had a more epic finale IMO, but overall FS2 was more in depth. But there was always one part that seemed strange to me. After the events of "Straight, No Chaser", the player naturally would be shaken up a bit, with the discovery of a second Sathanas. In the debriefing however, the Vasudan squad leader (do we ever get his name?) says that there are multiple Juggernauts in the nebula. He says this in such a "Oh, by the way..." manner that it doesn't give much weight to the revelation. Also, in "Into the Lion's Den", Snipes refers to the Sathanas that almost hits you as "Sathanas Number 3" instead of number 8 or 13 or something. If he knew about the second Sathanas, shouldn't he also know about the others, even if he and/or command doesn't know the exact number? I think that at some point, the plot was changed and that changing it back would make the whole story that much better.

You have the player and everyone else think that there is only a second Sathanas headed to Capella. That would still initiate the evacuation of the Nebula (and the continuing evacuation of Capella too). Rescuing the Aquitaine in the next mission would still make sense. By the way, in that mission ("Argonautica"), there is an unused debriefing stage applauding you for sighting the (singular) Shivan juggernaut.

When you get to "Into the Lion's Den", the revelation of a THIRD sathanas will be even more shocking, kinda literally. And each new Sathanas sighted will make it even more menacing, making it a very dramatic slow reveal instead of a ho-hum "By the way...". Snipes' comments would make much more sense ("We got to warn the Alliance!"). In the success debriefing, he says that he warned the Alliance that multiple Juggernauts are headed to Capella. That wouldn't make much sense if they already knew that. You could have Xinny and Zero mildly freaking out (why don't they talk in the mission?) to add to the drama. This mission is already pretty epic and I think that a few changes would make it even more epic, along with the entire storyline.

As far as I can see, the only changes needed would be the debrief for "Straight, No Chaser", saying that there is only another Sathanas, and the Command Brief for "Exodus", officially revealing the existence of multiple Juggernauts, since the SOC missions are optional.

This is interesting but I don't see a realistic way to implement it with existing voice assets.

Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on November 04, 2015, 10:09:35 pm
A relatively minor issue:

In the third mission of FS2 (called "Roman Blunder" IIRC), the Psamtik is sent in to help with enemy cruisers.  However, it never fires its capital beams.  Admittedly this doesn't matter for the Fenris, but it was in position to fire on the Leviathan.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 10:17:02 pm
That's actually talked up in the Hatshepsut tech description. She's using main beam power to charge her drives.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Admiral Acorn Squash on November 04, 2015, 10:20:08 pm
Last week I just finished my replay of BP and the original campaign, now I feel obligated to do it again  :shaking:.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 05, 2015, 08:45:28 am
I dont know how willing you are to change missions up completely, but king's gambit literally plays itself. No player input required.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2015, 08:46:40 am
Yeah, I noticed that! It's easy as hell. What's up with that? I remember it being pretty challenging...
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: perihelion on November 05, 2015, 10:45:39 am
Maybe I am missing something obvious, but where are the Tech Room Intelligence entries?  All I see is a "Notice" saying that I need to update my links???
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 05, 2015, 11:06:07 am
They're in the new "database".
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2015, 12:36:00 pm
Play in campaign mode, click 'database' on the briefing screen.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 05, 2015, 04:29:43 pm
The new tag is rad, very nice during the mission Endgame. Though the mass on it is kind of hilariously large, it knocks fighters around so hard. Also during Endgame, the Iceni sort of bumps on the nose of the collossus when it jumps in.

On another note, for some reason the debriefing never seems to play the victory music. (Unless I'm misremembering what the victory music sounded like...)
Not true, disregard.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2015, 04:32:01 pm
Play in campaign mode, click 'database' on the briefing screen.

Whoops, sorry — you won't be able to do this unless you're playing one of the BP campaigns.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 05, 2015, 05:22:40 pm
Jah jah, I like new High noon. Actual fighter cover and the collie actually looking like she is giving it all she's got.

The mission didn't really end properly for me though, in that cancer wing directive never got cleared and no RTB directive.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on November 05, 2015, 05:25:46 pm
Play in campaign mode, click 'database' on the briefing screen.

Whoops, sorry — you won't be able to do this unless you're playing one of the BP campaigns.

So we won't be able to see intelligence entries in FSBlue?

Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on November 05, 2015, 05:57:25 pm
Also during Endgame, the Iceni sort of bumps on the nose of the collossus when it jumps in.
Yeah, I think it does that with the stock 2014 MVPs as well.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2015, 06:04:45 pm
Play in campaign mode, click 'database' on the briefing screen.

Whoops, sorry — you won't be able to do this unless you're playing one of the BP campaigns.

So we won't be able to see intelligence entries in FSBlue?

They're exactly the same as why you'd see playing the other campaigns.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on November 05, 2015, 06:10:39 pm
A minor question that came up after completing a FSBlue mission:

I completed a mission and there was a quick sentence in debriefing about getting an ace medal (something like 'you have enough kills for an ace medal').  However, this line had no accompanying audio whereas usually Petrarch says something about it.  Was this intended or have I got a bug?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2015, 06:24:31 pm
Petrarch is disabled because we don't want him popping up in BP.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 05, 2015, 08:52:10 pm
Wait... so this is an improved retail FreeSpace 2 single-player campaign, but wtihout Petrarch?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 05, 2015, 08:59:07 pm
Wait... so this is an improved retail FreeSpace 2 single-player campaign, but wtihout Petrarch?
Just the lines for the ace medals
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 05, 2015, 09:22:35 pm
Obviously Petrarch is there in the very first CBrief and the rest of the game that doesn't include stuff that could accidentally pop up while playing BP. The easiest solution was simply to remove the voice files for promotions and ace-medals so you don't get Petrarch congratulating you for killing 160... GTVA fighters in WiH.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Veers on November 05, 2015, 11:44:00 pm
I imagine he might be confused as he gets older. Happens to the best of us.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2015, 11:51:51 pm
Of course Petrarch has all his usual lines, he's just not going to pop up to give promotions and medals.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: mjn.mixael on November 06, 2015, 12:13:44 pm
Sounds like a feature request to me. Lame to have to disable that for one campaign in a mod to prevent it from affecting the other.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 06, 2015, 03:58:28 pm
Known issue: sometimes when you start FSBlue you have no weapons available in the tutorials or first mission of the campaign, because campaign starting weapons aren't loaded properly.

Fix: delete Freespace2\data\players\[playername].FreeSpace2.csg and try again.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 06, 2015, 04:16:23 pm
Yeah, weird stuff sometimes happens if you have 2 different campaigns with the same name. I had a similar issue with BP complete when I still had .csg files for BP1 and 2.

An alternative is to simply clone your pilot, transferring over HUD, graphics, and controls setup without the save files.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on November 06, 2015, 04:43:02 pm
Found an amusing bug. In The Place of Chariots, NTF sentryguns use the GTL Anemoi icon. :) Also, they talk of Lokis, but the first enemies on site are actually Hercs.

Also, I have a suggestion. Remastered and expanded soundtrack would really help the atmosphere. Right now, it just lacks... epicness of BP. Belisarius' arrival just doesn't feel like a big deal, while a proper audio cue could make it a much more notable event.

EDIT: Also, why are Shivan bombers using Terran torpedoes? We have plenty of Shivan missiles available already. The nebula doesn't seem to be as bad as it used to be, either (can target Kappa until they vanish). Discovery should probably have some cargo as well.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 06, 2015, 08:07:39 pm
Sounds like a feature request to me. Lame to have to disable that for one campaign in a mod to prevent it from affecting the other.
Campaign files can specify different debriefing personas for different missions, with it just defaulting to Petrarch if one isn't provided, and each "$Promotion Text:" in medals.tbl can have a corresponding "+Persona:" (followed by another "$Promotion Text:" if you want to specify more personas/the default).

The downside is that you have to actually supply audio files for this new persona; otherwise, it will say "hmm, that audio file doesn't exist, guess we'll just use Petrarch's line for that". Although if FS Blue is currently supplying empty audio to overwrite Petrarch's audio files, it should be trivial to just move those to a different index.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FIZ on November 06, 2015, 09:55:13 pm
I feel somewhat a tiny bit responsible for this... FS Blue.  I look forward to playing it.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Goober5000 on November 06, 2015, 11:01:16 pm
Petrarch is disabled because we don't want him popping up in BP.

AdmiralRalwood posted what I was going to say:

Sounds like a feature request to me. Lame to have to disable that for one campaign in a mod to prevent it from affecting the other.
Campaign files can specify different debriefing personas for different missions, with it just defaulting to Petrarch if one isn't provided, and each "$Promotion Text:" in medals.tbl can have a corresponding "+Persona:" (followed by another "$Promotion Text:" if you want to specify more personas/the default).

The downside is that you have to actually supply audio files for this new persona; otherwise, it will say "hmm, that audio file doesn't exist, guess we'll just use Petrarch's line for that". Although if FS Blue is currently supplying empty audio to overwrite Petrarch's audio files, it should be trivial to just move those to a different index.

You can see it in the campaign editor screenshot here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/File:CampaignEditLoop.JPG), labeled "Debriefing persona index".  This is how we got the FS1 debriefing voices to play properly in FSPort.  Likewise for your new squadron leaders in Silent Threat: Reborn.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 07, 2015, 12:11:02 am
Complicated features get triaged out close to release, alas.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 07, 2015, 12:53:41 am
Also, they talk of Lokis, but the first enemies on site are actually Hercs.

EDIT: Also, why are Shivan bombers using Terran torpedoes? We have plenty of Shivan missiles available already.
I bet battuta used retail mission files instead of MVP's. Both those things are fixed in MVP missions.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 07, 2015, 01:17:55 am
You're not wrong, which is really frustrating. :( I'll have to redo all the load out edits on the MVPs missions.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on November 07, 2015, 03:43:48 am
You're not wrong, which is really frustrating. :( I'll have to redo all the load out edits on the MVPs missions.
It's ok, I did the same mistake a few years ago and had to run a diff between my remastered missions & the MVP ones while trying not to break stuff. It was really frustrating, but I didn't want some retail mission-design bug to slip in, or missing out on some other MVP improvement.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 07, 2015, 09:35:46 am
I used MVPs missions as base for everything where I did major tweaks — I just apparently clicked the wrong window while setting up the rest of the missions to avoid NTF fighters with Prom S/Balor default loadouts.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Mars on November 07, 2015, 01:30:21 pm
I forgot how many cruisers you end up killing in FS2
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on November 07, 2015, 01:36:45 pm
I noticed that too.  On the first FSBlue mission where you encounter the Shivans (where the Carthage and Dashor come in) the Shivan bombers used Cyclops.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 07, 2015, 01:43:10 pm
I'll fix it up on Sunday or Monday.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on November 07, 2015, 05:36:03 pm
Another suggestion: checkpoints. Especially in Mystery of the Trinity and similar missions, where you fly around for a long time and can screw up towards the end, forcing a restart.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Farkas on November 08, 2015, 12:21:05 pm
Damn, Battuta you doing too well... Now I have to go through the FS2Blue, the re-released BP, Zookeepers FoTG (if playable...) AND StarCraft 2 is about to come next week! Oh and I should work too... and sleep :shaking:
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 08, 2015, 01:46:25 pm
Do you think you could spice Argonautica up a bit? It's a really lazy designed mission, the last, entirely too long, 6 minutes just involve you and three wingmen intercepting the same few waves of respawning bombers. There is no challenge or interesting narrative going on there. Not even Tag can save it, because the Aquitaine has so few AAA turrets left in that mission.

Also, how about giving the saths in into the lion's den actual models?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Goober5000 on November 08, 2015, 03:24:25 pm
Do you think you could spice Argonautica up a bit?

As a suggestion, I always thought this part of the debriefing was interesting:

Code: [Select]
$Formula: ( false )
$Multi text
    XSTR("Your sighting of the Shivan juggernaut has provided Intelligence with valuable information regarding the potential strength and movements of the enemy fleet.", 1710)
$end_multi_text
$Voice: SM305_DB_03.wav
$Recommendation text:
    XSTR("", 10)
$end_multi_text
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 08, 2015, 03:41:22 pm
Dig up any unused dialog and I'll try to find places to use it!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Veers on November 08, 2015, 05:15:39 pm
Also, they talk of Lokis, but the first enemies on site are actually Hercs.
I bet battuta used retail mission files instead of MVP's. Both those things are fixed in MVP missions.

I always attributed this to Intelligence screwed up, there were bound to be holes in everything. Intel can't be perfectly accurate. :)
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 15, 2015, 12:45:47 pm
Can my computer handle the Enhanced Graphics?

i5-2500K @ 4.50 GHz
8 GB of DDR3 1866 memory (I know a lot more about my memory than that, so just ask if you need to know more)
GTX 780 @ 1228 MHz core, 6300 MHz memory (I know a lot more about my video card than that, so ask if you need to know more)
1680x1050 resolution

If you need any more information about my computer in order to answer this question, then please ask.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 15, 2015, 06:28:17 pm
Is pretty close to my pc, which can handle it just fine, so yes.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Thisisaverylongusername on November 15, 2015, 06:32:32 pm
Zeta wing of Hercules fighters in As Lightning Falls is wielding Balors. Make them wield Kaysers instead!  :D
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 17, 2015, 04:43:18 pm
Is pretty close to my pc, which can handle it just fine, so yes.

Thank you!

What are your PC's specs?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 17, 2015, 05:25:16 pm
We've shipped a new patch!

Maxims will have slightly reduced damage versus large ships.
The Bakha is now a fighter-bomber available in all Vasudan missions.
You fly the Sekhmet in Bearbaiting/High Noon.
TAG systems received a slight nerf.
A number of bugs got fixed.
As Lightning Fall has visual clues indicating the position of the next beacon.
The Prometheus R has been buffed to about the same level as the Subach.
Weapon energy levels on FS2 ships have been reworked.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 17, 2015, 05:27:58 pm
We've shipped a new patch!

Maxims will have slightly reduced damage versus large ships.
The Bakha is now a fighter-bomber available in all Vasudan missions.
You fly the Sekhmet in Bearbaiting/High Noon.
TAG systems received a slight nerf.
A number of bugs got fixed.
As Lightning Fall has visual clues indicating the position of the next beacon.
The Prometheus R has been buffed to about the same level as the Subach.
Weapon energy levels on FS2 ships have been reworked.

I've never needed visual clues. Can I disable them?

Each buoy points to the next buoy (each buoy is "looking" directly at the next one). You can also rely entirely on your radar.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cyborg17 on November 17, 2015, 05:56:22 pm
What are the general energy differences?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 17, 2015, 06:15:50 pm
Is pretty close to my pc, which can handle it just fine, so yes.

Thank you!

What are your PC's specs?
i7-2600k 3.4ghz
8gb ram
GTX 760, also running on 1680x1050
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 17, 2015, 06:36:13 pm
Is pretty close to my pc, which can handle it just fine, so yes.

Thank you!

What are your PC's specs?
i7-2600k 3.4ghz
8gb ram
GTX 760, also running on 1680x1050

Oh wow. Good! I was worried when I saw "You should only use these if your video card can handle 4096x4096 sized textures without choking". I was like, "um... I'm a geek and a nerd, yet, I don't know. So, crap... I need to ask." lol

Thank you, Spoon!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 19, 2015, 11:11:08 am
Hey guys! I'm really proud of one of our latest changes.

All ships in FreeSpace 2 will now drop flares instead of countermeasures. They should behave exactly the same in gameplay terms, but you'll now be able to see when your target is trying to decoy your missiles. And they look really gorgeous!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 19, 2015, 11:57:17 am
Hey guys! I'm really proud of one of our latest changes.

All ships in FreeSpace 2 will now drop flares instead of countermeasures. They should behave exactly the same in gameplay terms, but you'll now be able to see when your target is trying to decoy your missiles. And they look really gorgeous!
I am really looking forward to playing now!!! I'll be able to play starting sometime tomorrow or maybe Saturday!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: jr2 on November 21, 2015, 09:35:29 am
Hey guys! I'm really proud of one of our latest changes.

All ships in FreeSpace 2 will now drop flares instead of countermeasures.

Nitpick: Flares are countermeasures.  :P

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flare#Countermeasure
A special variety of flare is used in military aircraft as a defensive countermeasure against heat-seeking missiles.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 21, 2015, 10:41:46 am
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 22, 2015, 01:58:12 am
Nitpick: Flares are countermeasures.  :P
Except in FSO they're considered weapons.

I CAN NITPICK STRONGER THAN YOU
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 22, 2015, 08:06:21 am
Nitpick: Flares are countermeasures.  :P
Except in FSO they're considered weapons.

I CAN NITPICK STRONGER THAN YOU
FSO also considers countermeasures to be a type of weapon, and these flares are still considered countermeasures by FSO.

MY NITPICK-FU IS STRONGER THAN YOURS
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on November 22, 2015, 09:35:47 am
 :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 22, 2015, 09:46:56 am
Let's post about this cool campaign and more stuff we can fix!

I'm planning to look at King's Gambit and Rebels & Renegades. Anything else?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: deathspeed on November 22, 2015, 01:32:43 pm
I'm having a blast playing through this campaign right now; I just finished "Into the Maelstrom."  I don't have anything jumping out that i'd like to see different with gameplay, but I have noticed several times where the game cuts off dialog or cutscenes.  I may just restart the campaign, so I can note them as they happen.

Great work, guys!!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: The Dagger on November 22, 2015, 02:03:22 pm
In Proving Grounds you are supposedly providing targeting data to the Aquitaine, but it really doesn't feel like it. The Aquitaine barely shoots that Moloch, whether or not I'm over there.

In The Sixth Wonder, disabling and disarming the Cato ruins the mission since even if the Colossus arrives it will not fire on it. Destroying the Cato allows the Hawkwood to arrive and be blown to pieces. Maybe the Hawkwood arrival queue should be timed or linked to one of the bomber wings. It doesn't make any sense for it to wait until the Cato has been blown, specially if the Colossus is in station. Also, the Colossus should beam the Cato if its still there.

I used a Pegasus on Endgame and I was constantly getting targetted by AA beams from the Aelous. It didn't felt quite stealthy.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TacOne on November 22, 2015, 02:35:47 pm
I just finished the final mission. It was a blast running through the original campaign again. The new TAG stuff made it a lot more useful than it used to be.

The issues I can remember right now:
The morning star didn't seem to have any effect on the Pegasi in Proving Grounds, which used to be my primary way of keeping them off the cruiser (and nothing else in the entire game, pretty much).
In one of my tries at Bearbaiting, the destroyer got its engine subsystem knocked out by the Sathanas and couldn't jump out. Since it's invulnerable the Sathanas just kept shooting impotently at it until I finished off the beam cannons.
The dialogue in High Noon was spotty, as in it didn't have any flow at all. It felt like the timing on the dialogue triggers were off, but perhaps that's an artefact left over from the original mission. It's always bugged me that the dialogue doesn't change even when the Sathanas has been completely defanged. Would love to see the mission changed to something like the old High Noon 2.0 from Dilmah G.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 22, 2015, 02:41:10 pm
The Morningstar isn't gonna do **** to those guys, nope. Does the mission text suggest you use Morningstars?

I think the tradeoff is worth it to make the Morningstar possibly useful elsewhere in the game.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TacOne on November 22, 2015, 02:45:18 pm
Edited my post above while you were replying.

The Morningstar isn't gonna do **** to those guys, nope. Does the mission text suggest you use Morningstars?

I think the tradeoff is worth it to make the Morningstar possibly useful elsewhere in the game.

There's no suggestion to use it, but it's supposed to knock things around, which is useful when you want to keep something you can't kill from targeting your horribly fragile cruiser.
It used to work and now it doesn't, is what I'm saying, and if it's not supposed to work then I don't know how to "win" that fight.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: The Dagger on November 22, 2015, 03:23:23 pm
Using morningstars does kick them a bit, a concentrated barrage does move them and distract them.

Also, in A Monster in the Mist, the Ptah first bank is unassigned by default and I also get hit by AAA beams.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 22, 2015, 04:02:01 pm
In one of my tries at Bearbaiting, the destroyer got its engine subsystem knocked out by the Sathanas and couldn't jump out. Since it's invulnerable the Sathanas just kept shooting impotently at it until I finished off the beam cannons.

I've definitely got to fix that!

Quote
The dialogue in High Noon was spotty, as in it didn't have any flow at all. It felt like the timing on the dialogue triggers were off, but perhaps that's an artefact left over from the original mission. It's always bugged me that the dialogue doesn't change even when the Sathanas has been completely defanged. Would love to see the mission changed to something like the old High Noon 2.0 from Dilmah G.

The mission's already been changed! Keep an eye on the Sath, never loses its bite.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 22, 2015, 04:14:08 pm
And if I recall Proving Grounds right you can save the cruiser by EMPing the Pegasus fighters.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TacOne on November 22, 2015, 04:22:53 pm
The mission's already been changed! Keep an eye on the Sath, never loses its bite.

Oh yeah I noticed the carapace beam array, it was glorious :D
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on November 22, 2015, 05:46:34 pm
In Proving Grounds you are supposedly providing targeting data to the Aquitaine, but it really doesn't feel like it. The Aquitaine barely shoots that Moloch, whether or not I'm over there.
What difficulty level? It needs to be on Medium or higher for this to work.

In The Sixth Wonder, disabling and disarming the Cato ruins the mission since even if the Colossus arrives it will not fire on it. Destroying the Cato allows the Hawkwood to arrive and be blown to pieces. Maybe the Hawkwood arrival queue should be timed or linked to one of the bomber wings. It doesn't make any sense for it to wait until the Cato has been blown, specially if the Colossus is in station. Also, the Colossus should beam the Cato if its still there.

I used a Pegasus on Endgame and I was constantly getting targetted by AA beams from the Aelous. It didn't felt quite stealthy.

Damn. I always use the Pegasus in Endgame. Sigh.

Is this happening to the rest of you?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: The Dagger on November 22, 2015, 06:11:20 pm
In Proving Grounds you are supposedly providing targeting data to the Aquitaine, but it really doesn't feel like it. The Aquitaine barely shoots that Moloch, whether or not I'm over there.
What difficulty level? It needs to be on Medium or higher for this to work.
I'm on Medium.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 22, 2015, 06:13:35 pm
So I need to:

Guardian Phoenicia engines in Bearbaiting

Check out Aquitaine targeting in Proving Grounds (did you try this with TAG missiles? may need to look at that too)

Make the Cato self-destruct when disarmed and disabled in The Sixth Wonder, or make the Hawkwood arrive even if the Cato hasn't exploded.

Consider building a SEXP stealth system for the Pegasus, Fedayeen-style.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: The Dagger on November 22, 2015, 06:46:03 pm
Consider building a SEXP stealth system for the Pegasus, Fedayeen-style.

If you're doing it for the Pegasus, consider the Ptah too.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: providence932 on December 01, 2015, 12:15:33 am
So what's new with TAG-A and TAG-B Missiles in FS: Blue? Are they actually worth carrying around? Do they trigger greens? I've always been generally confused with their use outside of specific moments like Lopez trying to fry an AWACS.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 01, 2015, 12:21:55 am
Shoot them at a fighter and you'll see!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: deathspeed on December 05, 2015, 05:57:02 pm
A Game of TAG was much more fun today than it was the last time I played it!!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on December 05, 2015, 06:58:30 pm
Just in case someone might want to...

NO SPOILERS, PLEASE.

I haven't played this yet. :)

So, please, don't even post what happens with the new TAG missiles. lol I'm getting a little excited reading about this, but my time is being consumed by more important things right now. :/
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Maverick_BB110CB on December 06, 2015, 12:19:16 pm
Did I just hear Corey's voice in Dunkerque as one of the wingmen? Could it somehow get there by accident?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 06, 2015, 12:23:12 pm
It could.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on December 06, 2015, 03:05:20 pm
Who's Corey?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 06, 2015, 03:18:03 pm
Your older male wingman from AoA. Part of a Freudian trio with Bei(the player) and Taylor.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 06, 2015, 04:19:40 pm
It's probably not Corey though, I'd bet it's one of the WiH UEF personas that was voiced by Ransom.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 06, 2015, 09:42:48 pm
If there was an unassigned persona in that mission, I think it's entirely possible for it to randomly pick the Corey persona.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: ssmit132 on December 07, 2015, 03:21:12 am
Yes, and since I think Corey is the first new one in the list, you're more likely to hear him.

Amsuingly, this also happens to capships you can order, and the line picked is random out of all personas of the correct species. Imagine my surprise in Endgame when I ordered the Monitor to attack something and got "**** these bastards". :p
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Nyctaeus on December 07, 2015, 10:17:43 am
(http://i65.tinypic.com/nv6zrr.jpg)

Seriously :wtf: ??

I mean addonital Sathanas beams are not bad idea at all, but I don't get the point of spam of SReds. I would rather see 2 or 4 LReds places in various points of the hull... Or make MRed.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 07, 2015, 10:29:17 am
I also wasn't really a fan of how getting a TAG on the Sathanas results in the Colossus immediately sprouting its own forest of beams. It felt gamey as hell, introducing some noise would help a lot.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 07, 2015, 10:40:04 am
The SRed spam is awesome and cool.

The Colossus doesn't grow any new beams, it just fires its standard load out.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on December 07, 2015, 02:21:09 pm
I thought the beamspam was awesome, don't change please.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 07, 2015, 03:54:30 pm
2 LReds would far out-damage the Collie's broadside of 3 BGreens and would still do more when it overloads those into LRBGreens. So you'd basically be forcing the player to take those out too.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 07, 2015, 04:36:29 pm
The SRed spam is awesome and cool.

The Colossus doesn't grow any new beams, it just fires its standard load out.

I mean how all its beams fire at once, including, as I recall, the AAAs. It looked pretty bad.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 07, 2015, 04:50:21 pm
That's just how TAGs work. AFAIK they don't magically reset the cooldown on any of the beams, they just make them fire when you TAG the sath. They're ULTRA AAAs so they can't fire without a tag which leads to those huge barrages.
The LRBGReens will fire normally.

Would you prefer if TAGs caused only a part of the beams to fire of it the beam barrage wasn't so well co-ordinated?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 07, 2015, 06:01:20 pm
I'd prefer if a) there weren't a dozen AAAs firing uselessly at the Sath, and b) there was a bit more noise in the main beams' firing pattern so the scripting is less obvious.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 07, 2015, 06:07:00 pm
AAAs do damage and look cool.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 07, 2015, 06:22:57 pm
Dozens of beams firing at once is a pretty big and jarring difference from the way capship combat looked in FS2 retail and I'm clearly not the only one who thinks this, but apparently you've already made up your mind.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 07, 2015, 07:11:42 pm
It's pretty much exactly what capship combat looked like in retail FS2. When a Ravana jumps in it fires all of its beams at once if they're in range. And it's especially what capship combat looks like in Bp2 due to not inserting a random refire delay.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: IcemanFreespace on December 07, 2015, 07:47:34 pm
Why would a ship NOT fire all of it's beams? It's a great improvemet, can't wait to try it all.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 07, 2015, 08:04:10 pm
It's pretty much exactly what capship combat looked like in retail FS2. When a Ravana jumps in it fires all of its beams at once if they're in range. And it's especially what capship combat looks like in Bp2 due to not inserting a random refire delay.

When a Ravana jumps in it fires two beams, not a dozen tiny AAAs.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on December 07, 2015, 08:09:58 pm
Why would a ship NOT fire all of it's beams? It's a great improvemet, can't wait to try it all.

Exactly. It's a war. This is the way it would be in real life. You don't go easy on your enemies.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: GhylTarvoke on December 07, 2015, 08:22:45 pm
Well, the Shivans sometimes seem to...
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on December 07, 2015, 08:25:36 pm
Well, the Shivans sometimes seem to...

Well, the game isn't perfect. I think in real life, a species like that would be far more brutal and aggressive.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Droid803 on December 07, 2015, 09:39:00 pm
It's pretty much exactly what capship combat looked like in retail FS2. When a Ravana jumps in it fires all of its beams at once if they're in range. And it's especially what capship combat looks like in Bp2 due to not inserting a random refire delay.

When a Ravana jumps in it fires two beams, not a dozen tiny AAAs.

That's because it doesn't HAVE a dozen tiny AAAs. :rolleyes:
The Colly does so why not fire them.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 07, 2015, 10:07:55 pm
Dozens of beams firing at once is a pretty big and jarring difference from the way capship combat looked in FS2 retail and I'm clearly not the only one who thinks this, but apparently you've already made up your mind.

If it didn't look different how could you tell it was working?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 07, 2015, 10:18:58 pm
I think you should set it up so that the beams fire in order of their distance to the Sathanas, possibly to the tune of "Blackbird" by The Beatles.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 08, 2015, 12:55:18 am
Dozens of beams firing at once is a pretty big and jarring difference from the way capship combat looked in FS2 retail and I'm clearly not the only one who thinks this, but apparently you've already made up your mind.
Given that the FS2 retail capship combat in that mission sucked balls, that's actually a nice compliment.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: qwadtep on December 08, 2015, 01:31:16 am
Why would a ship NOT fire all of it's beams? It's a great improvemet, can't wait to try it all.

Exactly. It's a war. This is the way it would be in real life. You don't go easy on your enemies.
You're straining your logistics network if you fire everything haphazardly. You don't turn your AA guns on a surface combatant or your CIWS on the horizon except out of desperation; doubly so in Freespace where you're dealing with energy weapons on shared power grids and heatsinks. The Colly's imploding under the stress of her LRBGreens in High Noon, it doesn't make sense for her to worsen it for the superficial damage of lighter weapons.

Of course, all bets are off in Their Finest Hour since it's exactly that sort of desperation. If all you've got left to shoot the Yamato at Samar is your pistol, then lock and load.

The beams should probably be sequentially locked from back to front as the Colossus blows up, though, so it stops shooting from empty space.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 08, 2015, 01:46:29 am
But that's exactly what warships do with their AAA beams if they ever get in range of a warship with no other targets to shoot at. All AAA beams can be fired directly and are actually quite good if scripted to target subsystems.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 08, 2015, 05:55:45 am
Yeah, firing AAA beams against other warships is standard practice in FS2.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 08, 2015, 07:27:35 am
My major complaint here is that the beams fire all at once, when you fire a TAG. This makes no sense: the Colossus' fire control isn't slaved to your fighter. I think it could do with being toned down some.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 08, 2015, 07:29:43 am
It is because it's not within 1500 range of the Sathanas and the weaker AAA beams can't produce a bottle at that range without TAG systems.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on December 08, 2015, 09:32:48 am
It's pretty much exactly what capship combat looked like in retail FS2. When a Ravana jumps in it fires all of its beams at once if they're in range. And it's especially what capship combat looks like in Bp2 due to not inserting a random refire delay.

When a Ravana jumps in it fires two beams, not a dozen tiny AAAs.
When a Ravana jumps in, it fires four beams from two firing points with the usage of beam-fire sexp because **** logic. Those Corvettes are scripted to die.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Nyctaeus on December 08, 2015, 03:12:24 pm
Current fix of RAND_MAX may cause more problems with SRed spam. Currently they always fire to rear part of the Colossus because of previous limit. I guess most of players stay next to the Colossus in High Noon after disrming Sath's beam cannons. It may be hard to avoid beam fire, when all the SReds fires all across the Colossus hull.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Kestrellius on December 08, 2015, 08:14:58 pm
Okay, I know nothing about this project other than what I've read in this thread, but if something like this hasn't been already done:

Would it hurt to give us access to Best Ship (i.e. the Pegasus) in more than one mission? Like, for example, in the last arc, when you're supposed to be this big fancy squadron leader who has his pick of craft? Never understood why they did that. And if you're only going to pick one mission, why "Endgame"? It's not like that's a particularly stealth-oriented operation.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 08, 2015, 08:23:59 pm
Endgame already had the Pegasus available.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on December 08, 2015, 08:31:59 pm
Endgame already had the Pegasus available.
Yeah, thats kind of what he was saying.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 08, 2015, 08:38:37 pm
Well, it would make sense if you could choose pretty much anything the Aquataine has on board.
Speaking of loadouts I noticed the Bakha is availible in the zod arc as a strike bomber but most of those missions don't also include the cyclops so it's basically just a herc 2.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Goober5000 on December 08, 2015, 10:29:37 pm
Current fix of RAND_MAX may cause more problems with SRed spam. Currently they always fire to rear part of the Colossus because of previous limit. I guess most of players stay next to the Colossus in High Noon after disrming Sath's beam cannons. It may be hard to avoid beam fire, when all the SReds fires all across the Colossus hull.

Avoid the beam and you won't get hit, pilot.

(In this case, that's actually useful advice.  Try hiding behind the Colossus, or above or below it.  No need to position yourself directly between the Sath and its target.)
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: qwadtep on December 09, 2015, 12:05:56 am
But that's exactly what warships do with their AAA beams if they ever get in range of a warship with no other targets to shoot at. All AAA beams can be fired directly and are actually quite good if scripted to target subsystems.
If they get in range. We aren't talking about a close broadside duel, but an artillery battle where the Colossus is devoting all available power to overload its main beams. Having it go ham with every other beam as well just because the player shot a TAG is silly.

Best Ship (i.e. the Pegasus)
That's a funny way to spell Ares.

Speaking of the Pegasus, I recommend we use live ammunition in Proving Grounds, and guardian Delta when they hit 30% or something.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 09, 2015, 12:44:14 am
If they get in range. We aren't talking about a close broadside duel, but an artillery battle where the Colossus is devoting all available power to overload its main beams. Having it go ham with every other beam as well just because the player shot a TAG is silly.
It happens when the Sath is TAGged by anyone and the beams are off cooldown. The Colossus isn't even firing 3 of its main beams once it starts overloading anyway. There's no reason to think the problem lies with the whole reactor grid rather than the heatsinks and sub-reactors powering those beams.
Doing extra damage when it can just makes sense.


That's a funny way to spell Ares.

That's a funny way to spell Perseus.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: pSimon on December 09, 2015, 08:05:21 am
Speaking of the Pegasus, I recommend we use live ammunition in Proving Grounds, and guardian Delta when they hit 30% or something.

I'd concur with that.   Delta wing feel a bit too invulnerable now, as you can't knock them about with the Morningstar any more.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Mars on December 09, 2015, 09:12:48 pm
Make Delta tough (set phasers to test) and disable them at some threshold to make the objective accomplishable in Insane.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 09, 2015, 09:24:27 pm
It's a good idea.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on December 09, 2015, 10:50:25 pm
Spoiler:
So is the TAG-A supposed to have a mass so huge it knocks Seraphims around like toys, or did that get fixed and I missed it because I was too far along in the game?

I very much enjoyed FS:Blue after playing it from start to finish. It's definitely a massive improvement over the original, but on Easy the improved AI almost makes it feel like Very Easy. That or I'm a lot better due to War in Heaven conditioning.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 09, 2015, 11:32:14 pm
The AI uses the FS2_retail profile. Some turrets will fire A LOT faster due to the 'same turret cooldown' flag though so friendly warship will be a lot better at killing things.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on December 11, 2015, 11:58:05 am
How would I go about installing FS2 Blue without Blue Planet, for the sake of drive space? Do I need the BP core thing, or is there a way to use the FS2B vp file in, say, the Media_VPs 2014 mod?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 11, 2015, 12:06:43 pm
You need BP. I don't know exactly what you could strip out to save space. Presumably the BP audio VPs, at least...ah, but then you might get errors when it loaded the BP weapons tables...
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on December 11, 2015, 04:26:56 pm
You need BP. I don't know exactly what you could strip out to save space. Presumably the BP audio VPs, at least...ah, but then you might get errors when it loaded the BP weapons tables...

I imagine stuff like that would be in the BP core VP... Heck, I'll start experimenting and see what happens. I can't imagine needing the 4GB of BP visuals and audio to play a modified retail campaign.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 11, 2015, 06:00:13 pm
I imagine the problem is that the engine has to look through BP's ship table to see the changes made to retail, which means it'll also see all of BP's original ships, which means it'll look for their models, which means it'll panic and die without the visuals files.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 11, 2015, 06:06:46 pm
Correct, that's pretty much what I'm thinking.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on December 11, 2015, 06:06:55 pm
Well can't even play the full mod. It gives me some wonky error when I click "Play"
(http://s11.postimg.org/i5iyjzleb/Screen_Shot_2015_12_11_at_17_03_26.png[p3d][/p3d])
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cyborg17 on December 11, 2015, 06:17:17 pm
Are you trying to use FSO 3.7.2 or a recent nightly?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on December 11, 2015, 06:18:49 pm
Are you trying to use FSO 3.7.2 or a recent nightly?

3.7.2 official release. Followed installation instructions to the letter.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 11, 2015, 06:20:35 pm
Open the Blue Planet install thread, follow the big red link to grab a newer build.

Here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90802.0
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cyborg17 on December 11, 2015, 06:22:04 pm
Well, actually ---- oh Batts beat me to it.  ;7
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on December 11, 2015, 06:33:32 pm
That did the trick. Mine must not have been new enough.

Wonder if someone could possibly modify FS2 Blue to work without Blue Planet vps. I'm not getting the frame rate I usually do and would like to free up some drive space eventually.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 11, 2015, 06:38:45 pm
Check your launcher to be sure shadows are off, and if necessary turn off deferred lighting, postprocessing, and other features.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on December 11, 2015, 07:02:22 pm
What is differed lighting, anyhow? I disabled it and it did wonders for my FPS but I don't see anything lacking visually.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 11, 2015, 11:36:41 pm
What is differed lighting, anyhow? I disabled it and it did wonders for my FPS but I don't see anything lacking visually.
Deferred lighting basically means that the scene is rendered multiple times, with the lighting being done in a separate pass after geometry. It's all very technical and I don't really understand the finer details of the rendering engine (or even the broad strokes of the rendering engine, really, for that matter), but the upshot of it is that it drastically increases the number of light sources that can be projecting light simultaneously at the cost of poorer performance, depending on the mod/mission and the system FSO is being run on.

If disabling it gives you an improved framerate, then feel free to leave it off.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aetyrno on December 12, 2015, 02:28:17 am
Something strange going on with the shadows of the Knossos portal, in the lens flare... A Lion at the Door.

http://i.imgur.com/6ki1Q1o.png (http://i.imgur.com/6ki1Q1o.png)

Edit - not just Knossos - all ship "shadows" in the lens flare seem to do that.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on December 12, 2015, 12:49:11 pm
I've experienced some graphics glitchery as well, but only in the nebula. The little lights on ships have squares around them and when the Trinity exploded in the first nebula mission it made all kinds of weird artifacts.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on December 13, 2015, 02:51:44 am
I've experienced some graphics glitchery as well, but only in the nebula. The little lights on ships have squares around them and when the Trinity exploded in the first nebula mission it made all kinds of weird artifacts.

Something strange going on with the shadows of the Knossos portal, in the lens flare... A Lion at the Door.

http://i.imgur.com/6ki1Q1o.png (http://i.imgur.com/6ki1Q1o.png)

Edit - not just Knossos - all ship "shadows" in the lens flare seem to do that.

Run the debug builds, then post the fs2_open.log that appears in the main FreeSpace 2 folder.

I'm guessing either your graphics cards are oooold, or ya gotta update ya dang drivers. Eicca, what launcher are you using?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: deathspeed on December 13, 2015, 03:37:35 pm
Another member posted the same thing here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90877.0), but it wasn't resolved.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on December 13, 2015, 03:42:17 pm

I'm guessing either your graphics cards are oooold, or ya gotta update ya dang drivers. Eicca, what launcher are you using?

wxL, latest I think, for OSX.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aetyrno on December 14, 2015, 08:32:07 pm
I've experienced some graphics glitchery as well, but only in the nebula. The little lights on ships have squares around them and when the Trinity exploded in the first nebula mission it made all kinds of weird artifacts.

Something strange going on with the shadows of the Knossos portal, in the lens flare... A Lion at the Door.

http://i.imgur.com/6ki1Q1o.png (http://i.imgur.com/6ki1Q1o.png)

Edit - not just Knossos - all ship "shadows" in the lens flare seem to do that.

Run the debug builds, then post the fs2_open.log that appears in the main FreeSpace 2 folder.

I'm guessing either your graphics cards are oooold, or ya gotta update ya dang drivers. Eicca, what launcher are you using?

i7-3570K (mildly overclocked), 16GB DDR3-1600, GTX 660 Ti (2GB), up to date drivers. Nowhere near overheating or anything.  Noticed the other guy that posted about this had a 660, very similar but not the same as the Ti.

I'm running fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE2_20151121_71cf169.exe.   Command line C:\Freespace 2\fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE2_20151121_71cf169.exe -mod bpcomplete,mediavps_2014 -missile_lighting -3dshockwave -post_process -soft_particles -fxaa -fb_explosions -enable_shadows -cache_bitmaps -dualscanlines -targetinfo -orbradar -rearm_timer -ballistic_gauge -ship_choice_3d -weapon_choice_3d -3dwarp -warp_flash -snd_preload -mipmap -fullscreen_window  -spec -glow -env -mipmap

 Before I started typing this reply, I verified the squares were present.  Closed game, started debug version, waited for it to load (30+ seconds to load the mission, even on a SSD? Is that normal?) and the bug was not present.  Restarted the game twice, then went back to the non-debug version, bug is not there.  I'll have to play a few missions then come back and see.  Verrrry bizarre.

As a side note, no log file appeared at all.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on December 14, 2015, 11:21:33 pm
I'm dumb. fs2_open.log appears in the root's data folder, not in the root folder itself. Herp derp.

Turn off mipmapping. It's redundant and causes more problems. Odd how you have it twice, though.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aetyrno on December 15, 2015, 12:48:15 am
It's OK, I derped too.  When I searched for .log files, I thought it was already 2016 so I ignored the one created today.

I had cleared out and reinstalled the launcher - apparently the default settings had it added onto the custom flags, and hitting "all features on" added it somewhere else.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on December 28, 2015, 07:10:02 pm
I've just got to the Proving Grounds. I have to say, I really dislike the Morning Star's revamp. Damage went up, but the kinetic effect went away. This makes it useless for both keeping stealth fighters off Oberon (they now don't seem to care if you're shooting at them or not) and disrupting bomber formations. It still works as an anti-bomb weapon, but the shockwaves look really ugly. This rebalance made it be of somewhat more use in regular situations, but it's now useless in the few places the old version was good to have.

Also, Inspiration's cargo is "nothing" (King's Gambit). I think it should be carrying something. Same thing with Venture in the next mission.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aesaar on December 29, 2015, 03:20:24 am
So your problem with the new Morning Star is that it's more generally useful and less of a gimmick weapon?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 29, 2015, 03:24:05 am
Yeah, let's not pretend it was useful anywhere outside of Proving Grounds. It wasn't even good for disrupting formations because it cost so much energy(more than the kayser!) to fire meaning you'd be better off just using a real weapon to kill them instead.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on December 29, 2015, 04:23:31 am
Even if it's more useful, I literally don't use it outside of Proving Grounds. There's no point. Damage dealers all the way, baby.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Droid803 on December 29, 2015, 11:59:49 am
Why kill its one gimmick though?
Surely you could have buffed the damage and kept the kinetic effect.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 29, 2015, 01:49:04 pm
Losing control is anti fun for players. Still, it might be worth bringing it back so as to keep compatibility with the CB text...
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TwoCables on December 29, 2015, 04:46:35 pm
Yeah, I will often never even use it in Proving Grounds because once the first part is over with, I need real weapons. So I usually load out with my favorite weapons and just allow Delta to win so that I can get on with what really matters. I don't want to be stuck with just ONE useful gun the whole time.

I have always found the Morning Star to be the most useless weapon in Freespace 2. I am far faster at getting my job done with dual HL-7s or better (with missiles, of course).
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on December 30, 2015, 08:30:14 am
Yeah, let's not pretend it was useful anywhere outside of Proving Grounds. It wasn't even good for disrupting formations because it cost so much energy(more than the kayser!) to fire meaning you'd be better off just using a real weapon to kill them instead.
True, I would have decreased its energy cost. This is mostly a problem in higher difficulties. On easy, this was a somewhat useful anti bomb/bomber supplementary weapon. Dual HL-7s are, strictly speaking, not any more effective than a single one, due to ROF reduction. The second slot is good to use for a supplementary weapon such as Morning Star. TBH, the most useless FS2 weapon for me was the Prometheus R, followed by Akheton SDG.
So your problem with the new Morning Star is that it's more generally useful and less of a gimmick weapon?
Yes. FS has many other "generally useful" weapons. Shortly after you get Morning Star, you get Prometheus-S, which now makes it utterly obsolete. It sort of had its niche before, even if it was very situational. If anything, the role it now fills should be filled by Prometheus R (which is utter crap, unfortunately).
Losing control is anti fun for players. Still, it might be worth bringing it back so as to keep compatibility with the CB text...
It's not you who is losing control there, isn't it? I don't remember AI being issued Morning Star very much. You can keep the kinetic effect off (or reduce it) on the "D" version if you feel the need to balance stuff for multiplayer. Besides, compatibility with the CB text would also be good to have, since it's now quite blatantly false.

I'd make the Morning Star keep the current stats, but lose the shockwave and gain the kick. Essentially, bring it more inline with FS1's Flail. A decent early shield breaker with an added kinetic effect. Flail was also a surprisingly good subsystem killer.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 30, 2015, 09:51:07 am
Dual HL-7s are, strictly speaking, not any more effective than a single one, due to ROF reduction.
This is only true of 4/2 banks, like the Myrmidon. For a 2/2 pair like the Perseus or Herc 2, firing both banks gives you a 50% DPS increase, as the ROF reduction for two linked banks only drops it to 2/3rds.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 30, 2015, 10:32:49 am
Your math is off. 2 bank 'DPS' is 2 while 2+2 makes it 4x0.666..=2,666... It's a 33% increase, a 50% increase would take it to 3.
50% is the difference between a 4-bank and 2+2
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 30, 2015, 11:00:56 am
Your math is off.
Yes, it is. The point, however, remains unchanged.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aesaar on December 30, 2015, 12:04:14 pm
Yes. FS has many other "generally useful" weapons. Shortly after you get Morning Star, you get Prometheus-S, which now makes it utterly obsolete. It sort of had its niche before, even if it was very situational. If anything, the role it now fills should be filled by Prometheus R (which is utter crap, unfortunately).
It's better for it to be made obsolete by the Prom-S than to be useless from the start.  Gimmick weapons suck.

Quote
It's not you who is losing control there, isn't it? I don't remember AI being issued Morning Star very much.
Why do you think that is?  The kinetic effect is what makes the Morning Star completely unusable by enemy AI because it just isn't fun to get shot by it.

It's really funny to put it on bomber turrets because it makes them almost completely untouchable.  Same goes for warship turrets.  That's not good design.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 30, 2015, 12:12:37 pm
It's not you who is losing control there, isn't it? I don't remember AI being issued Morning Star very much.
You're mistaking effect and cause. The MS isn't issued a lot to AI because it would suck for the player (same as EMP). By making the MS more of a "standard" weapon, it opens the way for it to be used more widely in the future.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 30, 2015, 02:20:10 pm
Exactly.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on January 02, 2016, 05:20:54 am
Except that with Prom S, Prom R (it sucks, but for AI that's what you may want), Kayser and the HL-7, I think that there's hardly any reason to add Morning Star to the list of "regular weapons". The only reason to use it now is that it comes before Prom-S (only a few missions, but still). For AI, this limitation doesn't really apply. The only thing that differentiates Morning Star is the range, which is longer than the typical engagement range with AI. It would be fine if it wasn't for poor hull damage, as fighters are near impossible to hit from this far (for both player and AI) and large ships have no shields to strip off. As it happens, we have another long range weapon that does hull damage - the Maxim.
Quote
You're mistaking effect and cause. The MS isn't issued a lot to AI because it would suck for the player (same as EMP). By making the MS more of a "standard" weapon, it opens the way for it to be used more widely in the future.
No, I'm not. I'm pointing out that in retail FS, it's a player-only weapon, so as far as retail experience goes, nerfing the kinetic effect only harms the player. I have never felt the need for yet another regular weapon. It's been changed from useless to redundant, a lateral move IMO.
Quote
It's better for it to be made obsolete by the Prom-S than to be useless from the start.  Gimmick weapons suck.
How about making it somewhat useful even after Prom-S is introduced? Kinetic effect should stay, because it's what sets it apart from other weapons. Gimmick-only weapons suck, but if it's got useful damage on top of that, it might be fun to use. Flail was like that, being a decent shield killer for early FS1 missions. It wasn't used much by AI (well, except if you gave it to them, which was kind of fun), but I haven't heard complaints about it.

Now that I think of it, there might be another way of approaching the problem (inspired by the "bomber turrets" comment). The kinetic effect is only so problematic because Morning Star has a ridiculously long range. If it was, say, a very short ranged weapon, it could become an interesting element. It would kick you off if you came close to the bombers, forcing you to engage them with long-range weapons and missiles instead of going in very close (like I usually find myself doing). Of course, nerfing the range severely enough to make this work would also severely limit the (already limited) usefulness to the player unless damage was buffed to be very high. This would result in an utterly bizzare weapon (does high damage, but tends to knock enemies right out of its pathetic range :)) that I'm not sure would be fun to use, though.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on January 02, 2016, 08:00:34 am
You're mistaken. The current Morning Star has capabilities no other weapon can provide. (And the Prom R has been buffed to about Subach levels too).

The Morning Star won't be designed as a player-only weapon because we want the ability to give it to Tev enemies
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Bryan See on January 02, 2016, 11:56:28 am
What about FS1-era Shivan fighters and bombers such as the SF Scorpion, the SF Gorgon, and the SB Shaitan? What about them?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Nyctaeus on January 02, 2016, 05:22:51 pm
What about... What o__O?

They are not present in FS2 campaign neither in FS2: Blue. This is not gonna change.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Mars on January 02, 2016, 07:14:30 pm
Two of them are some of the ugliest fighters in FS1 and one of them never appeared in FS1, FS2, or Blue Planet.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on January 02, 2016, 08:17:25 pm
You're mistaken. The current Morning Star has capabilities no other weapon can provide. (And the Prom R has been buffed to about Subach levels too).
What would those capabilities be? It's sort of a long range anti-shield weapon. It's also a decent anti-bomb weapon. What can I do with it that I can't do with a Prom S (or any other gun, for that matter)?

Also, I would really like the tech description (and CB that introduces it) not to be a complete lie. Whatever it is, it's currently nothing like the Flail. Really, BP should introduce more new GTVA weapons than just the Balor (consider that as GTVA replaced every single weapon aside from Prometheus and Hornet between FS1 and FS2), instead of appropriating FS2 ones into a completely different role from what they used to be.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 02, 2016, 08:47:22 pm
The techroom description was changed, the briefing is voiced and therefore has to stay. As for new GTVA weapons there's the Balor and the Balrog, you don't really need much more than that considering how much warships weapons have changed.

The 32 year gap between FS1 and FS2 didn't radically alter warships or warship weapons aside from beams and flak. The 18 year gap between FS2 and BP added more new warships and changed all the beams and PD turrets on the new stuff. 3 new corvettes, 2 destroyers, and 1 cruiser vs 1 destroyer, 1 corvette, and 1 cruiser.

It's not too much to assume that gimmick weapons weren't worked on that much as they never saw use. Maybe there simply wasn't a demand for a new Akethon, Lamprey, or Morning Star. You could make a point for a maxim or missile straight upgrade but they're already good enough(the maxim and treb are too good, actually). Making newer, better versions would require a lot of rebalancing.

The morning star fills a niche for 4-2 fighters flying intercept that use the balor in their 4-bank and can't use the maxim in their 2-bank. It's the best bomb intercept weapon and having 2000 range helps kills bombs if your primary is the 1100 range balor. It's straight up better than the Prom-S in that role as the prom has a low firerate and less range.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on January 02, 2016, 09:01:16 pm
You're mistaken. The current Morning Star has capabilities no other weapon can provide. (And the Prom R has been buffed to about Subach levels too).
What would those capabilities be? It's sort of a long range anti-shield weapon. It's also a decent anti-bomb weapon. What can I do with it that I can't do with a Prom S (or any other gun, for that matter)?

Also, I would really like the tech description (and CB that introduces it) not to be a complete lie. Whatever it is, it's currently nothing like the Flail. Really, BP should introduce more new GTVA weapons than just the Balor (consider that as GTVA replaced every single weapon aside from Prometheus and Hornet between FS1 and FS2), instead of appropriating FS2 ones into a completely different role from what they used to be.

With how poor it is in comparison to the Tornado, it could be argued the Hornet was defacto replaced.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 02, 2016, 09:19:56 pm
Also, creating new weapons would completely miss the point. Some of these updates were made so that the FS2 weapon pool is more varied and not just a choice between the highest DPS weapon you can access atm(Hl-7 start,  PromS/Kayser later) and the maxim as the only other useful primary.

With the new stuff you actually have a reason to take the Circe for the anti-shield alpha or the lamprey to shut down cruisers and easily take them out. There are weapons you can feel good about having in your 2-bank aside from the maxim because they have real situational use, not just a gimmick that simply never paid off.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on January 02, 2016, 11:53:17 pm
You're mistaken. The current Morning Star has capabilities no other weapon can provide. (And the Prom R has been buffed to about Subach levels too).
What would those capabilities be? It's sort of a long range anti-shield weapon. It's also a decent anti-bomb weapon. What can I do with it that I can't do with a Prom S (or any other gun, for that matter)?

Also, I would really like the tech description (and CB that introduces it) not to be a complete lie. Whatever it is, it's currently nothing like the Flail. Really, BP should introduce more new GTVA weapons than just the Balor (consider that as GTVA replaced every single weapon aside from Prometheus and Hornet between FS1 and FS2), instead of appropriating FS2 ones into a completely different role from what they used to be.

The goal with FS Blue is to make the FreeSpace 2 primaries more interesting within FreeSpace 2.

The Morning Star can proximity-detonate and deal CIWS damage, making it excellent against bombs at long range.

The Morning Star's original niche as described in the voiced CB is not an interesting design space right now.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aesaar on January 03, 2016, 02:05:46 am
Also, I would really like the tech description (and CB that introduces it) not to be a complete lie. Whatever it is, it's currently nothing like the Flail.
And if Battuta had any interest in making a Blue version of FS1, you can bet that the Flail would change too.  Almost certainly not going to happen though.  It needs it a lot more, but it's also not worth the effort.

With how poor it is in comparison to the Tornado, it could be argued the Hornet was defacto replaced.
The Hornet wasn't replaced because the GTVA has millions of them stockpiled and they're still useful against Shivans.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Kie99 on January 05, 2016, 04:39:58 am
Can't get past Proving Grounds no matter what.  Tried completing it legit, using standard cheats, spamming Volition Bravos, failing five times, nothing.  Has anyone else had a similar problem?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on January 05, 2016, 09:35:22 am
Update your FS Blue install to the latest release, try again.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on January 05, 2016, 01:38:48 pm
How are Hornets still useful Aesar?  If you have access to both, why not take Tornadoes?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 05, 2016, 02:12:54 pm
You can carry more of them and they can be dumbfired to kill cruisers and freighters quickly. Tornados need a lock to do damage.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 05, 2016, 02:18:47 pm
Also they are still good enough to track bombers, and the AI will use them better against freighters and cruisers than they would tempests or even cyclops.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 05, 2016, 03:06:13 pm
How well AI uses them is getting game-y though, not a real in-universe reason.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: BirdofPrey on January 05, 2016, 03:09:40 pm
And if Battuta had any interest in making a Blue version of FS1, you can bet that the Flail would change too.  Almost certainly not going to happen though.  It needs it a lot more, but it's also not worth the effort.
Now what's wrong with the flail?  Why would that need a change?
Sure lacking (appreciable) hull damage can be a bummer, and the knock around isn't all THAT useful, but it strips shields better than most other things and the high volume of fire and lack of hull damage makes it good for intercepting warheads especially ones fired against soft targets.
Both of those factors make it a great second slot primary against bombers.

As for Hornets, even if Tornadoes are a definite upgrade, there's sometimes an advantage to being able to hold more shots worth of hornets, and they are still plenty effective against bombers and basilisks who can't effectively dodge them, and can be fired from the hip against larger ships.  Also, tempest isn't any better at tracking in high angle scenarios than the hornet; it just has the advantage that you're less likely to only get a partial hit.  I'd go as far as to say the Hornet is the Apollo of the missile world: competent at most everything, but great at nothing, so in a varied environment it does well (since you can't take a missile for every specific scenario), otherwise there's better things.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 05, 2016, 03:42:12 pm
How well AI uses them is getting game-y though, not a real in-universe reason.
As far as I'm concerned, in-universe it means rookies will also be able to use them better - pretty sure it makes sense for rookies in-universe to be able to use hornets better than tempests.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 05, 2016, 03:58:52 pm
The Hornet is hardly good at everything though. That honour belongs to the Tempest. The Hornet is good at killing cruisers and bombers and not much else. And even then the Tempest is better for that unless you commit to Hornets and take 2 banks so you can rapidly switch and dumbfire them.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aesaar on January 05, 2016, 10:48:06 pm
How are Hornets still useful Aesar?  If you have access to both, why not take Tornadoes?
Because they're there and you don't need Tornadoes to kill bombers.  This is a strategic concern, not a tactical one.  You give pilots Hornets because they're dependable and you have a ****load of them.

Now what's wrong with the flail?  Why would that need a change?
Same thing wrong with the Morning Star.  Whack effects aren't fun, which means you can't outfit enemies with weapons that have it.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on January 06, 2016, 06:49:48 am
The goal with FS Blue is to make the FreeSpace 2 primaries more interesting within FreeSpace 2.

The Morning Star can proximity-detonate and deal CIWS damage, making it excellent against bombs at long range.

The Morning Star's original niche as described in the voiced CB is not an interesting design space right now.
That sounds like something GTVA would develop in order to counter UEF's bomb swarms. Yeah, I suppose I can try using it in bomb-heavy missions, but as far as I'm concerned, the old version would've worked for that purpose well enough if it wasn't for the energy drain (it did work on lower difficulty levels). Shivans don't use huge bomb swarms, so I see no particular reason to have a weapon specifically designed to deal with them. "Can't give it to (enemy) AI" is a crappy reason for depriving the player of an otherwise useful weapon. FS2 is ultimately player-oriented, there's nothing wrong with having a weapon which "player/friendly AI only".

I would certainly have been against changing Flail at all. In fact, all the original FS1 weapons are perfectly fine except for the Synaptic. Silent Threat introduced a few of marginal utility, which carried over to FS2 with little improvement.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 06, 2016, 09:41:46 am

 depriving the player of an otherwise useful weapon.


We're talking about the Morning star here. Stop pretending it was useful in any way aside from saving the Fenris in Proving Grounds.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aesaar on January 06, 2016, 03:17:49 pm
That sounds like something GTVA would develop in order to counter UEF's bomb swarms. Yeah, I suppose I can try using it in bomb-heavy missions, but as far as I'm concerned, the old version would've worked for that purpose well enough if it wasn't for the energy drain (it did work on lower difficulty levels). Shivans don't use huge bomb swarms, so I see no particular reason to have a weapon specifically designed to deal with them. "Can't give it to (enemy) AI" is a crappy reason for depriving the player of an otherwise useful weapon. FS2 is ultimately player-oriented, there's nothing wrong with having a weapon which "player/friendly AI only".
Considering FS Blue is essentially the BP continuity version of FS2 (you might be able to tell by the name and the fact that it needs BP to run), having a weapon which is player/friendly AI only is absolutely an issue.

And if you don't like that, there is nothing stopping you from removing the edits made to the Morning Star yourself.  It's not like it's hard.

Quote
I would certainly have been against changing Flail at all. In fact, all the original FS1 weapons are perfectly fine except for the Synaptic.
You're kidding, right?  This has got to be a joke.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on January 06, 2016, 03:50:26 pm
The Morning Star is better and more fun now, but if we find ways to improve or redesign it further in playtesting, we'll chase those too.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on January 07, 2016, 07:46:33 am
For the record, I don't think so. It's marginally more useful, but I consider it a wasted opportunity. The idea that "all weapons need to be fun when used against the player" is a needless restriction that feel right out of a multiplayer game. It's not any less of a contrivance than seeing a weapon that is only used by friendlies.
We're talking about the Morning star here. Stop pretending it was useful in any way aside from saving the Fenris in Proving Grounds.
No, but it could be made useful. There are far better ways of making it so, among them being actually making it "Flail Mk2" it's supposed to be. The current weird "anti-bomb flak" with anti-shield effect is kind of meh.
Quote
I would certainly have been against changing Flail at all. In fact, all the original FS1 weapons are perfectly fine except for the Synaptic.
You're kidding, right?  This has got to be a joke.
And what exactly would be the problems with the original FS1 weapons? The Disruptor and ML-16 were of limited utility later on, but this was by design (seeing as they were pre-shield era weapons). Synaptic was crap, but all similar weapons were. I didn't see any problems with the others, last time I played.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2016, 08:47:41 am
Player-AI parity is a BP design tenet.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: QuantumDelta on January 07, 2016, 10:10:57 am
Just a note;
The morning star was used in 50-75% of multiplayer load outs. BD and I were amongst the few that didn't carry it as standard, but even we used it on occasion (me more than him, mostly to manipulate opponents..)

Single player... poor mans maxim.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on January 07, 2016, 06:07:02 pm
Interesting. You're talking about PvP, right? I would expect it to be annoying to other players. But then again, while "fish, fire and (forgot the third one, was it EMP?)" were not used in MP on a gentleman's agreement (at least as far as I've read during one wiki binge), this one was very much in use.

Is the retail Morning Star really as annoying in hands of AI as it's made out to be (note, we're not talking turrets, as they're governed by slightly different rules to main guns), or is that actually a misconception? I know that their firing technique is somewhat artificial, not to mention heavily altered by difficulty. Maybe the solution would be not changing the Morning Star, but making the AI use it more like a human player would?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aesaar on January 08, 2016, 02:39:17 am
And what exactly would be the problems with the original FS1 weapons? The Disruptor and ML-16 were of limited utility later on, but this was by design (seeing as they were pre-shield era weapons). Synaptic was crap, but all similar weapons were. I didn't see any problems with the others, last time I played.
How about the fact that the Avenger was according to stats flat-out the best weapon and if you took anything else you were less effective?

Quote
Is the retail Morning Star really as annoying in hands of AI as it's made out to be (note, we're not talking turrets, as they're governed by slightly different rules to main guns), or is that actually a misconception? I know that their firing technique is somewhat artificial, not to mention heavily altered by difficulty. Maybe the solution would be not changing the Morning Star, but making the AI use it more like a human player would?
Make and play (on insane) a test mission and put it on bomber turrets and enemy fighters.  Try to score kills with your primaries.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on January 08, 2016, 03:52:48 am
How about the fact that the Avenger was according to stats flat-out the best weapon and if you took anything else you were less effective?

Quoting for truth. The only other primary I use in FS1 is the Banshee, and that's only when I'm sure I'll be facing lots of shivan fighters, otherwise you better go for the Avenger, as the Prom's pitiful shield damage, lower fire rate and higher energy usage makes it underwhelming in comparison.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on January 08, 2016, 06:13:38 am
I always thought that the Avenger had a problem with shield damage (hence pairing it with Flail). The Banshee was always my favorite, with Prom being a close second (it made a wonderful capship killer). But then, you're mostly fighting the Shivans in FS1, with only a few mission that have Vasudans as primary enemies. Flying a Herc, I always used a Banshee in the lower slot (for killing fighters) and Prom S in the 4-gun bank (for maximum anti-capship DPS). I suppose the Avenger might've been superior against the Vasudan fighters.
Make and play (on insane) a test mission and put it on bomber turrets and enemy fighters.  Try to score kills with your primaries.
Bomber turrets I can agree with. As I said, they don't fire the same way as primaries do. I would expect them to be trouble. Having them mounted on a fighter with low agility, however (or a bomber), could make them manageable. Alternatively, an agile but flimsy fighter that could be easily taken out with missiles (Morning Star doesn't interfere with your turning ability, IIRC). I really wonder how it worked in multiplayer, where it somehow managed to be commonplace, despite the supposed "anti-fun" effect.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: BirdofPrey on January 08, 2016, 06:59:35 am
The Avenger has the highest average damage which makes it good for everything, and also boasts a good volume of fire.
The Prometheus has higher DPS vs hull, but with the lower shield damage, it will take longer to destroy a fully shielded target which is compounded by the fact Shivans have low hull HP but high shield HP.  Banshee has the highest shield damage of any weapon that still does hull damage, and matches nicely with the shield/hull HP split Shivans have, but the high energy requirement makes sustained fire difficult and only two fighters (Hercules and Valkyrie) can actually mount it.

Theoretically, using a Flail, Banshee or S-Breaker to take down shields and then swapping to a Prometheus would let you take down targets most quickly, but that's not so easy in practice against the smaller, more maneuverable fighters, and if you also need to take a disruptor, isn't an option.  That tends to leave the Avenger as the most useful primary followed by the Banshee when taken alone.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: GhylTarvoke on January 08, 2016, 07:53:43 am
The Avenger also sounds so nice when firing.  :D
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aesaar on January 08, 2016, 09:08:19 am
The Avenger also sounds so nice when firing.  :D
No FS1 weapon sounds nice when firing.  FS1 had awful sound design.

tss tss tss tss tss tss


I always thought that the Avenger had a problem with shield damage (hence pairing it with Flail). The Banshee was always my favorite, with Prom being a close second (it made a wonderful capship killer). But then, you're mostly fighting the Shivans in FS1, with only a few mission that have Vasudans as primary enemies. Flying a Herc, I always used a Banshee in the lower slot (for killing fighters) and Prom S in the 4-gun bank (for maximum anti-capship DPS). I suppose the Avenger might've been superior against the Vasudan fighters.
  The Avenger does more shield damage than the Prometheus and nearly identical hull damage.  It also has a lower power draw, longer range, and higher velocity.  It's better.  There is absolutely no reason in FS1 to take any weapon other than the Avenger and maybe the Banshee.


Quote
Bomber turrets I can agree with. As I said, they don't fire the same way as primaries do. I would expect them to be trouble. Having them mounted on a fighter with low agility, however (or a bomber), could make them manageable. Alternatively, an agile but flimsy fighter that could be easily taken out with missiles (Morning Star doesn't interfere with your turning ability, IIRC). I really wonder how it worked in multiplayer, where it somehow managed to be commonplace, despite the supposed "anti-fun" effect.
Or, even better, you could just turn it into a weapon that doesn't suck the fun from combat when you stick it on enemies.  You're devoting a lot of effort into thinking up way to keep this weapon's gimmick and I don't understand why.  It's not even an interesting gimmick.

And who gives a **** about FS2 multiplayer?  The issues with FS2's netcode means the meta there is nowhere near the same as it is in singleplayer, and no one is designing multiplayer mods.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: The E on January 08, 2016, 09:14:39 am
Getting bounced around by morning stars in multi is also not fun.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: GhylTarvoke on January 08, 2016, 09:18:52 am
No FS1 weapon sounds nice when firing.  FS1 had awful sound design.

tss tss tss tss tss tss

... okay, you have a point. I think it sounds nice when compared with everything else.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 08, 2016, 10:07:41 am
it's better than the new balor sound effect at least
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Aesaar on January 08, 2016, 11:39:37 am
it's better than the new balor sound effect at least
If you have ideas for a better one, I'm all ears.  Seriously, I've looked for one but have found nothing suitable.  I'm very open to a replacement.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 08, 2016, 11:55:47 am
I don't really know why you replaced the old sound, to be honest. It at least had an impact.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2016, 12:21:18 pm
Wasn't the old sound the Shivan Light Laser? I think it got cut for being kind of shrill.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Hades on January 08, 2016, 02:20:14 pm
I really wonder how it worked in multiplayer, where it somehow managed to be commonplace, despite the supposed "anti-fun" effect.
It wasn't despite of that feature but because of it that it became so commonplace in multiplayer. How can the enemy player even fire back if they're busy being bounced around?

Generally speaking if something is being taken 50%-75% over everything else in a game you've also run into balancing issues as well. Sometimes, from stats or from design; the latter of which is the case here, as the Morningstar's stats were very underwhelming.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Dragon on January 08, 2016, 05:19:04 pm
On the other hand, it had no "house rule". To prohibit it. From what I read, Infyrno and EMP (the latter being subject to similar criticism when given to AI) were not commonly used precisely because getting shot by them wasn't fun. Why was the Morning Star different? If it was so "not fun" why didn't it end in the same basket as Infyrno?
The Avenger does more shield damage than the Prometheus and nearly identical hull damage.  It also has a lower power draw, longer range, and higher velocity.  It's better.  There is absolutely no reason in FS1 to take any weapon other than the Avenger and maybe the Banshee.
Fair enough, so perhaps Avenger could use a nerf to both stats. I didn't use it because I tend to believe loadout screen stats at the time I played FS1, I suppose.
And who gives a **** about FS2 multiplayer?  The issues with FS2's netcode means the meta there is nowhere near the same as it is in singleplayer, and no one is designing multiplayer mods.
Well, BP has a multi component, which Hades has a badge for. Also, ideally, there would be no significant difference between combat with AI and combat with human players (at least as far as BP goes, with its entire "player and AI equality" shtick). We're still quite far from that ideal, but that doesn't mean we can't be thinking of how to get closer to it.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Hades on January 08, 2016, 05:32:14 pm
BP Multi is effectively dead because everyone lost interest due to the decrepit state FSO's multiplayer is in.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 08, 2016, 05:40:57 pm
As one of the few people who has even played multiplayer within the past couple years, let alone one of the developers who've attempted to fix multiplayer issues, I can assure you that nobody plays multiplayer, and probably won't until something drastic happens.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on January 08, 2016, 09:27:14 pm
Based on the comments here, I found out that the Avenger was better than the Prometheus in FS1.  I honestly didn't know that.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: BirdofPrey on January 08, 2016, 09:36:12 pm
That's probably because the fitting screen lies.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Galemp on January 09, 2016, 12:33:17 am
Just like the Boanerges' supposed maneuverability.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 09, 2016, 06:16:49 am
or the myrm's supposed notapileof****ness
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 09, 2016, 07:08:11 am
BP Multi is effectively dead because everyone lost interest due to the decrepit state FSO's multiplayer is in.
And would require a significant modding overhaul just to be compatible with current BP versions, as it was based on now obsolete BP versions from years ago. And yes, FSO multi is not exactly in a playable state right now.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2016, 08:05:49 am
Just like the Boanerges' supposed maneuverability.

I think we buffed the Boa to make that more true.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Hades on January 09, 2016, 01:58:55 pm
We did. Turns a little better and has stronger afterburners now so it's not tied or behind the Ursa in both.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: QuantumDelta on January 14, 2016, 06:26:09 pm
What changed in FSO Multi to make it not playable?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 14, 2016, 07:34:52 pm
Not sure when you last played it, but currently the netcode makes it basically unplayable. The relation between shooting and hitting is arbitrary and players teleport around so you just end up with mass collisions everywhere as it's impossible to predict where the server thinks you and everyone else are.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 14, 2016, 07:37:56 pm
What changed in FSO Multi to make it not playable?
This is an open question, however it's inarguable that the latency is untenable in its current state. At some point, I intend to see if it's still possible to play retail multi in direct IP mode to make a proper comparison.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2016, 10:48:22 am
As of 3.6.10 even LAN co-op was very nearly unplayable off host.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: jr2 on January 17, 2016, 10:39:02 am
'twould be cool if it was just a bug that, once fixed, made multi at least enjoyable again.  :nod:

Especially if it was a retail bug that was exacerbated or only manifested by FSO improvements or somesuch.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on January 17, 2016, 01:47:33 pm
That's probably because the fitting screen lies.

If there's ever another FSPort version, should the screen be changed to show the Avenger is more effective?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Mars on January 17, 2016, 07:29:38 pm
That's kind of a touchy issue. In one ideal the weapons would be rebalanced. The fsport team has not generally followed that ideal, radical change isn't something the fsport team really like to do. AFAIK fsport is still set up to run on vanilla fs2, and the weapon stats etc. have been picked to be as true to an authentic fs1 experience as possible.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Galemp on January 18, 2016, 12:27:45 am
We wouldn't say no to an FreeSpace Blue prequel.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on January 18, 2016, 01:23:24 am
That's kind of a touchy issue. In one ideal the weapons would be rebalanced. The fsport team has not generally followed that ideal, radical change isn't something the fsport team really like to do. AFAIK fsport is still set up to run on vanilla fs2, and the weapon stats etc. have been picked to be as true to an authentic fs1 experience as possible.

If the Avenger is actually better than the Prometheus in FS1...then changing the stats displayed for it onscreen to reflect that fact wouldn't be a 'rebalancing' would it?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: BirdofPrey on January 18, 2016, 05:36:54 am
That's kind of a touchy issue. In one ideal the weapons would be rebalanced. The fsport team has not generally followed that ideal, radical change isn't something the fsport team really like to do. AFAIK fsport is still set up to run on vanilla fs2, and the weapon stats etc. have been picked to be as true to an authentic fs1 experience as possible.
It's not really the stats that are the problem.
As I said, the game lies to you.  The loadout screen says the Prometheus has better shield damage than the Avenger, which isn't true.  it gives descriptors to all the weapons that essentially imply that whatever weapon you got most recently does the most damage.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Mars on January 22, 2016, 08:09:55 pm
The stats are absolutely the problem in the sense that it would make more sense to boost the Prometheus damage rather than change the command briefing to say "It's kind of beside the point now that we have the Avenger, but our scientists invented this!"
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on January 22, 2016, 10:45:24 pm
That's kind of a touchy issue. In one ideal the weapons would be rebalanced. The fsport team has not generally followed that ideal, radical change isn't something the fsport team really like to do. AFAIK fsport is still set up to run on vanilla fs2, and the weapon stats etc. have been picked to be as true to an authentic fs1 experience as possible.
It's not really the stats that are the problem.
As I said, the game lies to you.  The loadout screen says the Prometheus has better shield damage than the Avenger, which isn't true.  it gives descriptors to all the weapons that essentially imply that whatever weapon you got most recently does the most damage.


That's kind of what I was saying earlier.  I believe the loadout screen for the Avenger says "low shield damage" and the Prometheus says "high shield damage".  Shouldn't the Avenger description be changed onscreen?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: QuantumDelta on January 23, 2016, 10:55:48 am
I like how the complaint is network code when the difference between the network code now and the network code in the 90s is zero.
....And connections are better these days, and people played it just fine back then.
Game is no different now and hasn't been ever. It's totally playable, and modern games have the same problem (SC/E:D/Valkyrie).
Meh. HLPs opinions of multi is one of the things that made me give up giving a **** here :(
Multiple times...
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 23, 2016, 11:01:31 am
I've played a fair amount of PvP in E:D and I've never seen the kind of stuttering people complain about in FSO multi.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Spoon on January 23, 2016, 11:04:49 am
I like how the complaint is network code when the difference between the network code now and the network code in the 90s is zero.
....And connections are better these days, and people played it just fine back then.
Game is no different now and hasn't been ever. It's totally playable, and modern games have the same problem (SC/E:D/Valkyrie).
Meh. HLPs opinions of multi is one of the things that made me give up giving a **** here :(
Multiple times...
Because you are the only person who holds this opinion. No matter how many times you repeat "it was fine back in 1999!", this isn't going to magically change what people are experiencing with FSO right now in 2016. You think the multiplayer netcode holds up, good for you! Nobody else seems to agree with you.

"Stop complaining about the netcode guys, none of your perceived issues are real. It's fine because I said so! I'm so tired of telling you guys this, why won't you just accept that it's perfectly fine and playable?" <-- literally you.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Hades on January 23, 2016, 12:58:02 pm
The fsport team has not generally followed that ideal, radical change isn't something the fsport team really like to do.
If that were true, the Typhon and at least one other ship wouldn't have been given check hull flags on its turrets, they're perfectly willing to bend gameplay when they want to
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on January 23, 2016, 01:36:42 pm
The stats are absolutely the problem in the sense that it would make more sense to boost the Prometheus damage rather than change the command briefing to say "It's kind of beside the point now that we have the Avenger, but our scientists invented this!"


What would you change about the Prometheus:

Hull damage?
Shield damage?
Range?
Rate of fire?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Mars on January 23, 2016, 02:13:16 pm
Probably hull damage to be more in line with how its built up in game. Once again, the Avenger outperforms it in every way. It doesn't need to be better than the Avenger, it just needs to have some reason to recommend it. Even if its speed was increased from 450 to be more in line with the Banshee, that would be a big step forward.

If that were true, the Typhon and at least one other ship wouldn't have been given check hull flags on

Fair enough.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on March 27, 2016, 06:52:16 pm
The stats are absolutely the problem in the sense that it would make more sense to boost the Prometheus damage rather than change the command briefing to say "It's kind of beside the point now that we have the Avenger, but our scientists invented this!"

Swap The avenger and Prometheus stats?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 27, 2016, 08:03:38 pm
If anything like this is ever done(and it would require a lot more polish and rebalancing than FS2) swapping the Prom and Avenger stats definitely isn't the way to do it. Almost all FS1 primaries and even missiles do pitiful shield damage which leads to dogfights dragging on without the player being in any danger. The prom could probably use a big damage buff at the cost of fire rate, make it what the promS is in Fs2, the big alpha weapon. Maybe increase the range to match the Avenger as well.
The Avenger could also be slightly buffed to do a bit more shield damage at the cost of some hull damage, bringing it close to the DPS of the buffed prom without making either the obviously "best choice".

The problem is that the Avenger and Prometheus are very similar in what they do and the Avenger does it slightly better, giving you no reason to take the Prometheus.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Goober5000 on March 29, 2016, 10:07:00 am
The fsport team has not generally followed that ideal, radical change isn't something the fsport team really like to do.
If that were true, the Typhon and at least one other ship wouldn't have been given check hull flags on its turrets, they're perfectly willing to bend gameplay when they want to

The "check hull" flag can be found on the Typhon, the Typhon Hulk (which is probably a mistake), and the Ankh, but only in the FSPort MediaVPs.

And regardless, I would hardly call the "check hull" flag a "radical change", which was Mars's point.  The flag was introduced as a way to avoid certain model problems that were present in mediaVP models but not present in the original retail models.  (Come to think of it, updates to the collision code in recent years may mean the flag is no longer required.  This bears reinvestigation.)
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2016, 12:02:47 pm
How's the TAG balance in the latest iteration?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on April 22, 2016, 07:51:05 pm
I recently completed FSB for the first time.  I believe that I hadn't updated to the very latest iteration, as I got a lot of in-game warning messages regarding missing weapons, which I believe were the Piranha#bomber.  I expect that if I were to replay these missions with the latest iteration, these messages would disappear.

Anyway, on to the awesome.  Love the new Kayser and Prom-S.  The beam-spam in High Noon when you hit a ship with a TAG is overwhelmingly AWESOME! :yes:

There is one thing that I am surprised that you haven't appeared to have changed, is the rogue transports in Into The Maelstrom.  By the Colossus' message, I would expect that these ships were intended to arrive just after it sends its I-Am-Here message.  Unfortunately, their initial orders are to dock with the 2 gas miners, and then the Colly.  Unfortunately, due to the imprecision of waypoint following, these ships never actually reach the end of their waypoints and sit there spinning around a spot they can never seem to get to.  I decided to make an altered version of the mission, having those transports arrive when prompted, having the convoy clear their orders when they get within 25m of their waypoint.  I also moved their destination waypoint closer to the jumpnode so they get less battered by rocks.  I also gave the two transports different dockpoints on the Colossus to go for.  The default mission orders has them going for the same dockpoint.

I'm also disappointed by the limiting ammo capacity for the Maxim.  :ick:
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on June 06, 2016, 05:34:38 pm
Overall, Blue is fantastic. But a few polish things to perhaps take a look at.

I still have difficulty getting the Aquitane to destroy either Shivan corvettes in both evac from nebula missions. It would be nice if these missions were slightly modified so that destruction of these ships is at least possible. Such as allowing Alpha wing to fly bombers. And yes, this was on Medium difficulty. Each corvette always survives with around 15% health left.


During Apocalypse, the dragons are a nightmare if you pick a slower craft, and since it's a red alert mission. Yeah, it's not great. My usual strategy of using the Lemnos as a fire base didn't work until I picked a Eyrinres and trebbed the Rakshasha before it did too much damage.

It would also be nice to select the Pegasus again, I love that fighter, and you never get to use it after that one mission where Bosch runs the blockade.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on June 06, 2016, 07:28:01 pm
Overall, Blue is fantastic. But a few polish things to perhaps take a look at.

I still have difficulty getting the Aquitane to destroy either Shivan corvettes in both evac from nebula missions. It would be nice if these missions were slightly modified so that destruction of these ships is at least possible. Such as allowing Alpha wing to fly bombers. And yes, this was on Medium difficulty. Each corvette always survives with around 15% health left.

Did you try TAGging them?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on June 06, 2016, 07:47:00 pm
In regards to the second Moloch... I always load-out with one bank of Trebs so I can take it out by myself.

BTW, Battuta, your end quote tag turned out to be an end QUITE tag, so your own reply ended up within the quote brackets.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: deathspeed on June 06, 2016, 08:27:30 pm
How's the TAG balance in the latest iteration?

"A Game of TAG" was actually fun this time through, and i even purposely selected TAG missiles in later loadouts.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on June 06, 2016, 08:30:51 pm
Overall, Blue is fantastic. But a few polish things to perhaps take a look at.

I still have difficulty getting the Aquitane to destroy either Shivan corvettes in both evac from nebula missions. It would be nice if these missions were slightly modified so that destruction of these ships is at least possible. Such as allowing Alpha wing to fly bombers. And yes, this was on Medium difficulty. Each corvette always survives with around 15% health left.

Did you try TAGging them?

Nope, I'll give that a try. The results were pretty spectacular in High Noon!

I'll also come in favor of, "fire all batteries" at once does look really cool.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Erebus Alpha on June 06, 2016, 11:09:04 pm
I think I found an easter egg. The briefing animations are now much more high-rez than retail FS2's, and the text is now readable. In the first mission, we get to read some of Bosch's crimes:

- No permit for lemonade stand
- Withholding logs from The E
- Attempted takeover of HLP
- Stockpiling Bosch Beer
- Getting Goober drunk

I cannot help but wonder what other easter eggs exist within Freespace Blue!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: ssmit132 on June 06, 2016, 11:55:17 pm
That's an easter egg in the high-quality CB animations from the MediaVPs, not from FS Blue.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AtomicClucker on June 07, 2016, 01:36:48 am
Well, I'm playing my 2nd run of FreeSpace Blue... with a mouse.

In all madness, I'm a nutcase, but hell, the Perseus is awesome and a TAG missiles are great.

I really don't have many nitpicks aside from realizing how quickly I plowed through it the first time.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on June 08, 2016, 02:14:40 pm
Playing through Freespace 2 Blue, I just did the Great Hunt. The mission went normally and the Shivan cruisers were destroyed, as well as the Lysander. As soon as it did, I jumped out and got the "you retreated without authorization, and will be put on trial" debrief. That being said, when I clicked accept results, I was able to proceed with the campaign normally with no additional retries.

Which objectives in FS2 will actually cost you the mission? Are there objectives you can fail and still proceed like in Wing Commander? I'd test it myself, but I'd have to restart the campaign.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on June 08, 2016, 02:24:50 pm
You probably returned to base before authorization but after the mission had registered the "okay to go to next mission" event in the campaign file.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on June 08, 2016, 03:02:52 pm
Didn't even realize that was possible. Pretty cool, it's nice to be able to throw one in command's face once in while. Given they'll shoot you and only you most of the time after failing against impossible odds.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on June 24, 2016, 06:13:50 am
I love what you did with Slaying Ravana! Although the starting position of Epsilon wing needs a look.

Just curious: Has the Boanarges changed at all? It seems just like the deathtrap it always was.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on June 26, 2016, 04:36:11 pm
This has probably been asked (and it might have been me that did it) but why is all of Blue Planet required to play FS2Blue? I think it'd be quite nifty to be able to play the remastered campaign without needing the 4GB of Blue Planet along with it.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on June 26, 2016, 08:12:06 pm
Partly for development reasons. FS Blue was a last-month crunch addition to the project (because when we're done with all our blocking issues on BP, instead of releasing like sensible people, we go insane with bonus features). We didn't want to take time to disentangle all the dependencies.

Partly because FS Blue relies on BP content such as ship, weapon, and AI tables. Which I guess is the same reason. It's work to sort all that **** out.

I feel like Slaying Ravana might be too quick now; although, does that just put it in line with the early game difficulty curve? Probably, yeah...
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on June 26, 2016, 08:43:04 pm
Well, the campaign itself is a single less-than-5MB VP file called "bpc-fs2blue.vp", and "bpc-core.vp" is around 21 MB and contains all the tables. I'm not sure if anything relies on changed model files, though (for extra turrets, for instance). If it did, though, they'd probably be the MediaVPs' models, and therefore combining those two VP files with the 2014 MediaVPs could, theoretically, be all you need to play FS: Blue by itself. I would just note that I obviously haven't tested this myself, and do not really recommend it if you have the space/bandwidth to download all of BP Complete.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: eicca on June 26, 2016, 11:19:25 pm
Well, the campaign itself is a single less-than-5MB VP file called "bpc-fs2blue.vp", and "bpc-core.vp" is around 21 MB and contains all the tables. I'm not sure if anything relies on changed model files, though (for extra turrets, for instance). If it did, though, they'd probably be the MediaVPs' models, and therefore combining those two VP files with the 2014 MediaVPs could, theoretically, be all you need to play FS: Blue by itself. I would just note that I obviously haven't tested this myself, and do not really recommend it if you have the space/bandwidth to download all of BP Complete.

Just tried it. Throws errors before pilot selection and then freezes at the mission loading screen.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Darius on June 26, 2016, 11:50:29 pm
Some of the sounds and music tbls reference non-MVP stuff
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on June 27, 2016, 01:31:24 am
I feel like Slaying Ravana might be too quick now; although, does that just put it in line with the early game difficulty curve? Probably, yeah...

Well, it certainly is a lot less underwhelming then the original was, but it still is rather underwhelming for a boss battle.
The question is, to me: Do you intend FS2Blue to be played by people who have already played FS2 or do you intend for it to be a game where absolutely fresh players can run around? If it's the latter, you really ought to do something about the intro movie being a massive spoiler for the campaign, whilst if it's the former you can easily tweak the difficulty. Right now, The Romans Blunder is a more impressive mission, as it requires you to actually do some tactical planning. On the other hand, Slaying Ravana is basically a case of throwing in a few bombs and make sure that a fighter does not tail you. It kinda undersells the shivans as a fearsome enemy in contrast to A Lion at the Door, too.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on June 27, 2016, 02:16:37 am
Yeah, Slaying Ravana was made intentionally easier because it was the first bombing mission and bombing in Freespace generally sucks. Making a hard bomber mission without fixing the inherent problem with bombers is just sadistic.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on June 27, 2016, 07:54:16 pm
Sounds like the Ravana needs some plot armor.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on June 28, 2016, 07:59:00 am
Huh, so the COlussus did nto fire any of it's beams when Koth tried to ram it.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Kestrellius on June 28, 2016, 10:11:24 am
Seems like it'd be easy enough to fix Slaying Ravana -- give it a ton more hitpoints, and give the player a much larger number of bombers to work with. It's larger in scope without being significantly harder, and, as an added bonus, huge volleys of bombs look awesome.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on June 28, 2016, 11:03:39 am
It's already got a ton more HP, and maneuvers, and more defensive armament! Adding more bombers will reduce the player's marginal contribution, which makes the mission feel less interesting. It may just need slightly more toughness on the Ravana.

But it is a notorious difficulty spike, I'm not 100% sad to see it a bit nerfed.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on June 28, 2016, 06:04:14 pm
How about giving it one of the more rapid-fire AI types?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: DefCynodont119 on June 28, 2016, 06:48:33 pm
Random Idea, (and I know It does not 100% fit current BP canon) But what if we made the Terran ship into a GTC Cretheus? http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTC_Cretheus the FS2 styled flak gunboat thing. then put it just below and slightly to the left of the players start position, and move the Vasuden corvette back to it's original spot.

It could provide cover for the bombers and have little impact on the Ravana's health due to it's lack of anti-warship beam weapons. As for the plothole, the BP tech room says that It was interned to be deployed by that time anyway- but was delayed.  just say that this was the 1st prototype and the one in Vassago's Durge was the 2nd.

plus it's got much more AAA flak/beams and the mission dialogue calls for a cruiser anyway.



but I'm just babbling off the top of my head here.  :wtf:
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on June 29, 2016, 02:30:13 am
You can also just use an Aeolus?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on June 29, 2016, 02:44:02 am
The suggested ship is non-canon. The point is to improve on the original FS2 campaign without fundamentally altering the story. Introducing a non-canon ship would be a pretty fundamental alteration. An Aeolus would be campaign appropriate.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: DefCynodont119 on June 29, 2016, 03:25:49 am
Well, yes (and I addressed that) but given the changes already made, the changes to the weapons, (Balor available in certain missions) (not to mention the redoing of many techroom entries) It did not seem like it was beyond what they would do as it's just one ship, but meh an Aeolus is perfect too.

The point was that it would help give the player cove without providing beam support, (It could be the extra beams that create the need to beef-up the Ravana in the first place) and as a ship the Cretheus perfect for that role. an Aeolus would work great too, I just figured It'd be nice to have the Cretheus appear more then once in the entire mod.   :drevil:

As I said, Thinking off the top of my head.  :ick:

I agree though, the mission was too much of a difficultly spike.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: LaineyBugsDaddy on June 30, 2016, 10:45:54 am
I was under the impression that the Balor being available was a bug they were working on.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 21, 2016, 04:21:08 pm
Heya, Blue Planet's post-processing shaders appear to make the game look quite a bit darker!
I made a few comparison shots, using the same (default - presets off) lightning settings for all shots, the only difference being either The Mod Used or the Post Processing Shader on/off.

BPOff: Freespace Blue with Post Processing off.
BPOn: Freespace Blue with Post Processing on.
MVPOn: MediaVPS with post processing on.
Vanilla: Just to show how far the game has come :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Luis Dias on July 21, 2016, 04:25:58 pm
god that ship's ugliness is generalised in all post-processing options...
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on July 21, 2016, 04:41:53 pm
Lol we were just complaining about how dark everything is on internal. Somebody better look at that table!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on July 21, 2016, 05:01:02 pm
-Joshua-, is that in 3.7.4 or with a recent nightly build? It's just that HDR completely changes lighting and you don't appear to have something glowing in front of you to make it obvious which one it is.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 22, 2016, 12:40:27 am
It's 3.7.4 final.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 22, 2016, 05:34:01 am
Currently playing Rebels and Renagades: When the Hinton is destroyed, Beta and Delta wings go to "No orders" instead of guarding the Iceni. This does make the subsequent section with the asteroids a bit harder: 2/3rds of the squads really shouldn't be fiddling their thumbs.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Goober5000 on July 22, 2016, 08:24:58 am
It's like that in the original retail mission too.  That's not to say that changing it isn't a good idea.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on July 22, 2016, 11:20:07 am
Did a pass to make King's Gambit less self-playing. Should be in next patch.

Morningstar and Piranha also got buffs.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 23, 2016, 04:09:25 pm
Huh, so AAA beams don't damage asteroids, whilst my Subach HL7 one (6) shots them. That's a bit weird.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 26, 2016, 04:33:06 am
The Ship-Guardian on Alpha 2 in A Game of Tag looks weird when her engines are disabled... The mission appears to be even more frustrating then the original, with the Warspite often simply refusing to open fire  :ick:

I mean... That whole mission, I don't remember it being this frustrating. But it's terrible! Do you:
1) Stay on the tail of that enemy Mara, so that you are then destroyed by the Warspite's AAA beam (seriously: the thing takes of 50% of your hull with one stray hit but it needs multiple barrages to finish a mara!)?
2) Dodge away of that enemy Mara, so that that Mara then gets the lock on you because the Warspite's AAA beam missed the 6 shots you get?
3) Don't attack those Taurvi's because there is a Manticore on your tail, only to find out that the Warspite simply does not fire it's weapons after you tag the thing?
4) Quit the mission entire and choose to complain about the whole thing on the forums, coming across as relentlessly ungratefull for what is otherwise a stellar work?
5) Decide to play the missions a few times, only to see the same problems happen consistently along multiple playtroughs?
6) GRRRRrrrrr
7) Note that replacing the hyperAAA beams with the Deimos's standard green beams neatly solves problem 1 and 2?
8) That also would just look damn cool!

... Does the starboard front beam on the Warspite work at all? Aforementioned manticore tends to be straight in that things cone of fire, whilst the Maras that are often in full frontal view and yet only get the port side beam after them.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on July 26, 2016, 08:24:33 am
That mission should be a lot less frustrating than retail due to the buffs to the TAG missile's fire wait...
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 26, 2016, 09:10:57 am
Have you folks by any chance made any changes to the ultra AAA beam? I checked the mission on retail and there the warspite fires quite bit more relentlessly. Any tagged target on retail can be relied upon to die. Not so in the BP version. As the mission files are identical I suspect that changed weapon tables are the culprit.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on July 26, 2016, 09:16:22 am
Don't think so. The changes probably lie in the move from free fire to a repeating fire-beam event.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 26, 2016, 09:25:59 am
Don't think so. The changes probably lie in the move from free fire to a repeating fire-beam event.

Huh, looking trough the weapon tables it does appear that BP reduces the miss factor of the ULTRA beam but this should make it more potent, not less. Unless that thing is in backwards.

Repeating fire-beam might be it? The retail AAA beam fires continiously whilst the BP beam takes a break inbetween firing.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 26, 2016, 12:59:07 pm
Okay, I took another look at that mission, and I made one change: Turret 23 is a Terslash in the ships.tbl, just like turret 24. However, in the mission (in both retail, MVP and BP variants) that turret is a lonely flak gun. Meanwhile, turret 24 is an Ultra AAA.

... Am I now crazy, or is turret 23 one of the Deimos's frontal beams? Changing turret 23 to a Ultra AAA ensured that both frontal beams fire at the targets you tag at first. This makes the BP variant of the mission quite a bit easier, and might be a great avenue to explore that mission further. The way the Warspite is kitted out in any current variant makes little sense.

edit: For instance, try reversing any changes [v] makes to the warspite's loadout, except replacing the Terslashs (turret 11,12,23,24) with the Hyper AAA.

edit2: Simultaniously, the lack of kinetic properties to the new Morning Star does make the proving grounds mission a bit weird. Protecting the oberon is now simply impossible, whilst it was doable (if extremely hard) to fend off Delta wing in the original with the original Morning Star. Delta wing appears to have no incentive to break off their attack when they are not taking any damage. Perhaps Ship-Guardian them?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on July 26, 2016, 02:57:40 pm
Try EMPs on Delta
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: MitoPL on July 27, 2016, 07:26:42 am
The suggested ship is non-canon. The point is to improve on the original FS2 campaign without fundamentally altering the story. Introducing a non-canon ship would be a pretty fundamental alteration. An Aeolus would be campaign appropriate.

How about Mentu? If I recall properly, it hasn't got any beam cannons (except AAA).
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 27, 2016, 07:41:18 am
Try EMPs on Delta

No joy!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 27, 2016, 08:01:09 am
Well, that's not the fault of the EMPs. If you can't get a visual you need to keep your eyes open.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on July 27, 2016, 10:37:04 am
Well, that's not the fault of the EMPs. If you can't get a visual you need to keep your eyes open.

I had a visual before I launched all those EMPs into them...  :nervous:
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 27, 2016, 02:02:41 pm
Delta don't even seem to react much to your fire except by sometimes turning away after you sustain fire on them for a few seconds. EMPs seemed to do nothing. Moving on to the Tiamat, I kept it in sensor range for about as long as it was actually in the mission and I even shot out its engines. The Aquitaine still quickly moved past it to an angle where none of its beams could fire, so the Tiamat couldn't be killed. That was pretty annoying.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: galonrever on July 28, 2016, 02:22:57 am
More of a question than anything... I've got 3.7.4 installed and downloaded all the mods (from FSOinstaller), and I'm playing through the Freespace 2 campaign that's present in Blue Planet's campaign room... it is just called 'Freespace 2', right? It's not meant to be Freespace Blue or anything? Just wondering as I'm not noticing a huge difference between the reg campaign and the new one.

To be fair, I haven't used TAGs yet, or done High Noon (just finished the first set of SOC missions) so maybe I just haven't encountered a huge change yet...

(Hope this wasn't covered earlier in the thread... didn't have time to browse all 16 pages   :P )
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on July 28, 2016, 02:41:59 am
More of a question than anything... I've got 3.7.4 installed and downloaded all the mods (from FSOinstaller), and I'm playing through the Freespace 2 campaign that's present in Blue Planet's campaign room... it is just called 'Freespace 2', right? It's not meant to be Freespace Blue or anything? Just wondering as I'm not noticing a huge difference between the reg campaign and the new one.
No, it should say "Freespace Blue" in the campaign room. Please post your fs2_open.log file.  Instructions on how to do this can be found in this post.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: galonrever on July 29, 2016, 12:21:43 pm
Here's the log. I ran this off the Blue Planet mod, though I have checked the Blue Planet 2 mod to see if Freespace Blue showed up there, but saw nothing...

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on July 29, 2016, 12:51:37 pm
You're running an older version of Blue Planet. Download Blue Planet Complete from the FSO installer or the Blue Planet forum!
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on July 29, 2016, 01:51:59 pm
Delta don't even seem to react much to your fire except by sometimes turning away after you sustain fire on them for a few seconds. EMPs seemed to do nothing. Moving on to the Tiamat, I kept it in sensor range for about as long as it was actually in the mission and I even shot out its engines. The Aquitaine still quickly moved past it to an angle where none of its beams could fire, so the Tiamat couldn't be killed. That was pretty annoying.

The same thing happened to me.  No matter the difficulty level I can't get the Aquitane to kill the Tiamat.


Also on this mission, without the kinetic effect it's a lot more difficult to 'protect' the Oberon early on.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 29, 2016, 02:06:22 pm
Yeah I think the mission needs some scripting so Delta are forced into evading after a few hits.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: galonrever on July 29, 2016, 08:53:32 pm
You're running an older version of Blue Planet. Download Blue Planet Complete from the FSO installer or the Blue Planet forum!

Oh, thought I'd done that - must have missed a step! Thanks guys! I really love this community - somewhere else there would have been insults hurled and such, but here? The civility is wicked-good!

But, even using the latest FSOinstaller - I get the image attached below :(

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on July 29, 2016, 09:07:41 pm
You need to select "bpcomplete" as your folder, not "blueplanet". Blueplanet is the old release that doesn't include FSBlue or many other changes.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: galonrever on July 30, 2016, 03:15:04 am
You need to select "bpcomplete" as your folder, not "blueplanet". Blueplanet is the old release that doesn't include FSBlue or many other changes.

Ah, my mistake - thanks guys!

EDIT: WOAH! Played through up to the Vasudan nebula operations - the changes are fantastic! Loving the morning star, it's actually useful now - and great work on the Slaying Ravana mission, that was a massive improvement. Looking forward to the rest of the campaign :D
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2016, 05:09:36 pm
How y'all liking the new new Slaying Ravana? King's Gambit any less self-playing?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on August 10, 2016, 03:36:47 pm
How does one properly test self-playing? Is it not giving any input at all or giving out orders only but otherwise not influencing?

If the former, the missions are defenitely not self playing but that's mainly because Alpha wing's bombers stay on your wing and don't attack at all :P

When C-3-9'ing King's Gambit, the Deimos class corvettes, the NTC Liberty and the NTT Inspiration don't make it, but the NTD Uhuru and the Leviathan class cruisers survive. Partly this is due to how the Mjolnir beam cannons are aligned: They miss all their shots on the NTD Uhuru (!) whilst connecting a fair few times with the Deimos class corvettes. However, the NTD Uhuru and a cruiser surviving still indicates mission succes, although it probably will make the later missions a lot harder (although I don't know how as I aced the mission in my campaign playtrough and just fired up the techroom to check). If you want to get that Distinguished Flying Cross you definitely need to put some work in.

As a possible suggestion to make the mission harder: Ensure that any hostile craft in the mission prioritize the Mjolnirs. Right now, the Deimos class corvettes are not a threat to any friendly assets in the mission, whilst you as a player should have an incentive to try to bomb their frontal beam cannons.

Strangely, I found the Sicilain Defense much easier then King's Gambit, whilst it's defeinitely less self playing when checking in the tech room. But if you can keep the Hyksos alive (which simply requires bombing the starboard side beam turrets) the other hostile craft seem to blow up almost instantly.

As a side side note: Into the Maelstrom: one of your wingmates calls out a mayday after a friendly corvette (forgot it's name) says that they are not allowed to leave their position but that they will deploy another wing of fighters. Shouldn't this dialog be the other way 'round?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on August 10, 2016, 03:47:24 pm
The new new slaying ravana is defenitely *WOW*. I was always impressed by The Great Hunt, and Slaying Ravana now matches that feel.

Warships in the FS2 bombing missions do seem a bit weird though: They often make no effort to improve their firing position on other craft. The Ravana stands still being pummeled whilst it could try to bring it's frontal cannons to bear on the warships harassing it, and the captains of the ships in King's Gambit seem to furiously spam ALT+J like they have been told this mission would be self playing, making no effort to improve on either their own odds or the odds of the craft behind them.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on August 16, 2016, 04:28:16 am
Yah I saved the Abraxis! ... Why don't I get credit for that? :P
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on August 17, 2016, 04:14:20 am
Question: The Malta appears in Apocalypse, but where do the other ships in the Bastion's escort go?

edit (because my double posts have become insaanee)

Yay I finished it! First time I finished the whole thing on insanity, which is nice.

I still have *thoughts* about Apocalypse though:

First of all, there's a bit of weirdness regarding the fighters and capitals that get carried over. I can understand that mission balance requires that only a limited set of fighters or cruisers get carried over, but the current method is a bit crude: The Malta gets carried over if the malta survives, but if the Ertenax and the Templar both survive whilst the Malta is destroyed apocalypse is still harder then it would be if you lost two cruisers but saved the Malta. From a reward perspective, this makes no sense.

My suggestion would be to ensure that if you manage to save atleast one cruiser, the cruiser with the least amount of hull damage is carried over to Apocalypse. The final mission appears to have scripting disabled to make all three of them appear but that might screw up with balance a bit too much (Even if Apocalypse is damn hard, but it should be).

The same with fighters: It makes no sense that you get all your fighters when Alpha and beta and gamma 1,2 survive, but none if only gamma 3,4 and delta survive.

Secondly, the mission has voice files for every ship that makes it trough the node, even if the convoys have no chance of surviving. This could be a boon to make the mission less predictable. Right now, anyone who has played apocalypse knows when it will end, thus encouraging the player to bolt it after a certain set of time is passed. Perhaps make that timer a *lot* more random. Sometimes earlier to catch out veterans, whilst often longer to coax people into tempting fate and trying to save a few more transport ships. The way the current mission is designed makes Petrarch's speech on how Alpha 1 heroically decided to stay behind seem like a complete sham. Simply being nearby the third or fourth convoy makes running in the default herc II impossible.

Perhaps, try making that mission play exactly like Petrarch paints it and tie the apocalypse to the flight path of a random transport ship: When that transport ship is about 50 seconds away from the node, trigger the supernova and have that ship be attacked by shivans so that the player is actually forced to choose between just bolting for the node and trying to cover that last transport ship at the risk of their own life.

I have no idea if such a thing even can be fredded but I DARE YOU.

(Also, do the AI actually use trebuchets?)
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on August 17, 2016, 09:33:13 pm
It might be fun to just make the supernova counter longer, so you have more time to make a decision between "supernova beginning!" and the shockwave impact.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on August 18, 2016, 05:23:44 am
Retail AI can't use trebs and that's unlikely to change in FSBlue all that soon. Maras and Basilisks are equipped with like 80 trebs by default, imagine what every mission would look like if they actually used them.

Another problem with upgrading the AI is that it would require a lot of rebalancing and in some missions you have a tight script to follow due to the unchangeable voice lines.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 18, 2016, 06:54:38 am
The AI are set to 'guard alpha 1' in a lot of missions, I noticed, and become way way way more effective when ordered to engage. This is on medium, of course.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on August 20, 2016, 11:15:57 am
I reliaze that BP needs this for story reasons, but I am slightly sad that the rank.tbl has been effectively nullified. My score says that I should be Lt. Commander by now, but FS blue never acknowledges this :(

Retail AI can't use trebs and that's unlikely to change in FSBlue all that soon. Maras and Basilisks are equipped with like 80 trebs by default, imagine what every mission would look like if they actually used them.

Thing is, you don't need to modify the AI for all the campaign, one just needs to either tell wingmen in the latter missions to start using them (isn't there a sexp for that?) or ensure that the player is either explicitly or implicitly told never to use the Trebs for AI wingmen.

The AI are set to 'guard alpha 1' in a lot of missions, I noticed, and become way way way more effective when ordered to engage. This is on medium, of course.

Guard alpha 1 is usefull for maintaining a tighter formation though. You don't want to be pounced by a few dragons whilst the rest of your wing is killing asteroths a few klicks away. Enemy fighter's manouvrability increases considerably at higher difficulty levels as the handicap they get tapers off. If a dragon is on your tail, your only hope is a friendly warship or wingman nearby (and preventing them from getting on your tail is much easier with wingmen or warships nearby).
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Kolgena on September 14, 2016, 03:59:07 am
In Feint Parry Riposte, I'm losing the friendly leviathan every time the Orion shows up on insane. It gets instagibbed by the BGreens and there's nothing the player can do.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on September 16, 2016, 06:37:52 am
I'm noticing that Shivan fighters tend to go off to some random ****ing location at full burn.

In A Lion at the Door, I noticed a wing of Astaroths (and one lone Astaroth) 15 ****ing klicks out from the battle flying off into some random point in space. In the following mission, when encountering the first wing of Manticores, only two engage, but the other two are nowhere to be found.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on September 20, 2016, 02:10:16 pm
Also, uhhh... cruisers like the Fenris and Leviathan have turrets labeled AAA Beam/Turret, but have laser turrets instead. Also, the Hawkwood in The Sixth Wonder decided it wanted to use its main beams against my Perseus instead of Enif Station. I was nowhere near Enif Station or even in the line of fire.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on September 20, 2016, 02:57:31 pm
If the mission file has altered the warship's default loadout then its turret names will not match.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on September 21, 2016, 04:27:44 pm
Granted, I just remember them being more formidable.

Also, in Love the Treason and But Hate the Traitor, rebels attack the Sunder and Omega transport when they're supposed to be either ignoring or waiting. Was a nasty little surprise (and a little amusing) for all 5 fighters in Traitor to destroy the Omega transport and Niven telling me I'm the cold-blooded killer.

[EDIT] Also, I continue to run into the issue of the rather sadistic nature of ship's gunners targeting me with their main anti-capship beams. Seems to affect the Deimos corvettes the most.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Bryan See on September 26, 2016, 06:33:51 am
Can the Hecate or other destroyer classes or above survive such attacks?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on September 26, 2016, 09:47:03 am
Can the Hecate or other destroyer classes or above survive such attacks?
No idea what you are talking about, but I'm gonna go with "yes".
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Joshua- on September 26, 2016, 03:21:44 pm
Can the Hecate or other destroyer classes or above survive such attacks?
No idea what you are talking about, but I'm gonna go with "yes".

"Hugeship" flag?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Kiloku on October 14, 2016, 08:12:11 am
I'm unable to destroy the first enemy ship (NTD Uhuru) in The King's Gambit. It jumps out extremely quickly, and (as Joshua stated), the Mjolnirs miss their shots completely.

I tried ordering my allies to disable it and to destroy it. Neither attempt changed the results. I bombed the engines and TAGged the Destroyer. None of these attempts changed the result.

The ship arrives at 0:10, and leaves at 01:13. 1 minute is far too little time to take down an Orion with blind Mjolnirs.

(I'm playing on Normal Difficulty)

edit: I might have talked too early. I tried a loadout with Stilettos and just barely managed to disable it before it left. The Deimos afterwards was a bit difficult but manageable (because I needed to rearm, so some time was lost)

edit 2: Still find it too difficult to kill it regardless.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on October 14, 2016, 09:15:08 am
The Mjolnirs in that mission have actually always (afaict) been blind, firing on fixed axes.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Kiloku on October 14, 2016, 12:48:58 pm
Even with the fixed axes, shouldn't they wait until the target is within their line of fire, rather than just shooting at nothing before its subspace portal has even finished opening?

(Unsure if they miss in the same way in Retail)
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on October 15, 2016, 03:31:24 am
I think the AI just checks (citation needed) the turret's field of view as it would any other weapon, meaning that no matter how tight it is, it's never going to be a straight line of fire.

My gut feeling is that it's been like this since retail.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Kolgena on October 20, 2016, 02:25:22 am
I'm unable to destroy the first enemy ship (NTD Uhuru) in The King's Gambit. It jumps out extremely quickly, and (as Joshua stated), the Mjolnirs miss their shots completely.

I tried ordering my allies to disable it and to destroy it. Neither attempt changed the results. I bombed the engines and TAGged the Destroyer. None of these attempts changed the result.

The ship arrives at 0:10, and leaves at 01:13. 1 minute is far too little time to take down an Orion with blind Mjolnirs.

(I'm playing on Normal Difficulty)

edit: I might have talked too early. I tried a loadout with Stilettos and just barely managed to disable it before it left. The Deimos afterwards was a bit difficult but manageable (because I needed to rearm, so some time was lost)

edit 2: Still find it too difficult to kill it regardless.

I'm finding the same. If you don't disable it, even the damage output on insane is insufficient to kill it at all. Most of the time it still jumps out before you can disable. Whatever's up with that mission, the behavior is definitely different from retail, or even the MVPs a few years back.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on October 20, 2016, 02:29:12 am
The Mjolnirs fire before the Uhuru even hits their field of fire. That's what's different. The timing is way off.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Bryan See on November 16, 2016, 04:39:25 am
Why don't the Mjolnirs track their target even while firing their beams?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on November 16, 2016, 05:07:30 am
Why don't the Mjolnirs track their target even while firing their beams?

Have you not seen beams firing in FreeSpace? Non-slash beams don't move when firing.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on November 16, 2016, 06:43:49 am
IIRC, even a slash beam's targeting solution is based on a snap-shot of a target ship when the beam fires.  It doesn't constantly recalculate as the target moves.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Bryan See on November 16, 2016, 12:59:50 pm
A fixed beam? What about beams which recalculate as the target moves?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on November 16, 2016, 04:14:46 pm
Type 3 beams (AAA) may recalculate between shots, but I don't know for sure.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on November 16, 2016, 05:46:01 pm
I've only ever seen a Mjolnir stay in place and fire in a straight line.

Can a Mjolnir be made so that it can at least turn to point at a target?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: niffiwan on November 16, 2016, 06:06:12 pm
Maybe by hacking it such that the entire model is a turret, attached to an invisible & nocollide ship?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Solatar on November 16, 2016, 06:18:21 pm
I've only ever seen a Mjolnir stay in place and fire in a straight line.

Can a Mjolnir be made so that it can at least turn to point at a target?

The Mjolnir beam only fires along the firing normal of the Mjolnir cannon, so only straight forward. It's the only beam cannon in FS2 that does this; but replacing it with any other beam (Or even Mjolnir#home) will make the beam aim before it fires. Unless somebody's fixed the orientation of the model in game, having it "point to" an object causes one of the sides to point towards the object, not the front end of the gun.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Woolie Wool on November 16, 2016, 06:21:26 pm
There's been at least two versions of the Mjolnir where the model has been rotated so the main weapon faces forwards.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 16, 2016, 06:22:15 pm
Maybe by hacking it such that the entire model is a turret, attached to an invisible & nocollide ship?

Couldn't you just give it rotation times but no speed?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: niffiwan on November 16, 2016, 06:26:01 pm
Dunno, I'm not sure if the AI will aim the ship towards the target when it has no speed. Although I guess it'd be pretty easy to give it fighter AI and change the speed/rotation appropriately, probably easier that messing with the model to make it act more like a sentry gun with turrets (which is where my original idea came from)
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on November 16, 2016, 06:56:42 pm
Making the Mjolnirs actually aim would probably be retail-breaking and just odd, though. The in-game, Mjolnirs are supposed to be static beam sentries that fire on ships emerging from the node.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on November 16, 2016, 07:53:00 pm
I've worked with front-oriented Mjolnirs, and given turn time and very low movement speed, it will orient towards its target.  FS:B could add one into the tables and call it Mjolnir#front and have them in that mission, but when you consider how powerful the non-aiming Mjolnir beam is, it could break balance for that mission considerably.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on November 17, 2016, 06:17:04 pm
Making the Mjolnirs actually aim would probably be retail-breaking and just odd, though. The in-game, Mjolnirs are supposed to be static beam sentries that fire on ships emerging from the node.

I'm not necessarily saying they should be able to aim their beams like a destroyer can 'aim' its beam cannon shot (within a cone field where the pound sign is basically the turret   #<)...rather that a Mjolnir should be able to rotate (but would still fire in only a straight line).
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 17, 2016, 08:34:47 pm
I actually wrote a patch to the beam code a few months ago to make a beam that would track a target based on its velocity at the time of firing; would anyone be interested in that as a solution to this?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on November 17, 2016, 10:28:47 pm
I'm guessing that this, if implemented, would be a table option for any beam type, as opposed to creating only a new beam type (type 5 for example) that tracks.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 19, 2016, 08:21:39 am
Each beam type has radically different targeting code internally, I think if you wanted more advanced control of beam tracking it'd be better to define a new type altogether and work with a clean base.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on November 19, 2016, 10:59:00 pm
So you'd need to create a new type for AAA-advanced targeting, new slash advanced targeting, and new direct-fire advanced targeting?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on November 30, 2016, 08:43:07 pm
I encountered a minor technical problem in the mission "Sixth Wonder".

When attacking the NTC Cato, I targeted its AA turrets (labeled "AA Beam") but they didn't fire the standard blue anti-fighter beam...instead they fired normal laser shots (colored yellow/goldish).

That was the only ship in the mission that had the problem though. The NTCv Hawkwood had anti-fighter beams.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2016, 08:50:28 pm
Turret names are accurate to the ship's tabled weapon layout.

Whenever V altered the layout on a per-mission basis, turret names may not match the actual weapon.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on November 30, 2016, 09:00:18 pm
Something else I was wondering about:

It was said there were going to be changes made to the Prometheus R.  What changes were those?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on December 01, 2016, 11:24:46 pm
Also, I apologize if I'm remembering it wrong, but in the retail version of "Fainy Perry Riposte!" didn't the Colossus have a forward beam to fire on the Repulse with?

I just played the FS2Blue version of said mission and the Colossus just let the Repulse ram it and did nothing.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 02, 2016, 06:35:35 am
The collie never had a frontal anti capship beam, it was always the same 6 BGreens, 3 per side. It should fire on the repulse with those though, they have a 180x180 degree firing arc.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 02, 2016, 11:19:02 am
It doesn't, though, I noticed that too. Wonder why...maybe the Repulse is protected somehow?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 02, 2016, 11:40:41 am
Hmm, didn't the beams clip through the hull when firing on the Repulse ? Maybe a "check hull" flag is messing things up.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 02, 2016, 01:10:29 pm
Ohhhh yeah. That would probably do it.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on December 02, 2016, 03:21:48 pm
It could be that.  I'm pretty sure I remembered the Colossus firing on the Repulse and the Repulse took some damage.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Norbert- on December 02, 2016, 04:39:23 pm
Maybe it's a matter of chance with the Colossus sometimes being a tiny bit differently oriented and thus just barely getting a beam into the right angle... or not.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on December 02, 2016, 06:22:56 pm
Perhaps in FS:B 2.0, the Colossus could be re-oriented so it broad-sides the Repulse.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Norbert- on December 04, 2016, 09:02:22 am
I'd only adjust it slightly, just enough to let a beam or two fire. If it turns completely away the message to evacuate the forward sections of the Colossus wouldn't make sense anymore.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Trivial Psychic on December 04, 2016, 11:55:17 am
Good point.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on December 06, 2016, 02:17:15 pm
I know you need time for the Repulse and Colossus to have their dialogue, but I think the Colossus came in too far from the Repulse.  It was just pointed straight on at the Repulse for almost a couple minutes without moving it seemed like (more than enough time ingame to turn/move out of the way)  This was especially weird considering that it wasn't in a position to fire on the Repulse.  If I was CO of the Colossus, I would have at least tried to have it turn so I could broadside the Repulse.

In short, I concur with that others have said.  Battuta, if you ever do another update to FS2 Blue, could you modify this mission slightly so that the Colossus comes in slightly at an angle so it can fire on the Repulse with at least one capital beam? 
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on December 06, 2016, 02:28:20 pm
Or... maybe, just maybe...

wait for it

Two reasons. The first is that I've seen the Colossus kill the Repulse before Koth's monologue even finishes in normal gameplay, even in a single shot. That might have changed due to the new model, but still. Second, perhaps the Colossus doesn't fire on the Repulse because they're trying to get Koth to surrender, or they hope someone in Koth's crew will see reason. You know, "Don't do it, Koth! You're sacrificing ten thousand lives for nothing!"

But what do any of us know, really.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on December 06, 2016, 09:36:45 pm
Or... maybe, just maybe...

wait for it

Two reasons. The first is that I've seen the Colossus kill the Repulse before Koth's monologue even finishes in normal gameplay, even in a single shot. That might have changed due to the new model, but still. Second, perhaps the Colossus doesn't fire on the Repulse because they're trying to get Koth to surrender, or they hope someone in Koth's crew will see reason. You know, "Don't do it, Koth! You're sacrificing ten thousand lives for nothing!"

But what do any of us know, really.


In the FS2 Blue version (for me at least), between "Koth out!" and the Repulse actually hitting the Colossus there was about a minute of time.  That should have been enough for the Colossus to turn so it could fire at least one beam cannon.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on December 06, 2016, 10:43:15 pm
/me facepalms

I say I've seen the Repulse die in a single shot, you repeat that the Colossus could turn and fire at least once. Unlike you, I can read and understood your post perfectly.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on December 06, 2016, 11:04:32 pm
In the retail version I saw the Colossus got off shots and didn't destroy the Repulse so we saw different things okay?  No need to be hostile.


How about having the Colossus jump in a little closer to the Repulse if Colossus won't get shots off (to reduce the dead air time between Colossus CO ordering evacuation and the Repulse actually hitting it)?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on December 06, 2016, 11:58:21 pm
I had a slightly confusing issue with "Bearbaiting". 

After completing the mission successfully (all four Sathanas primary turrets destroyed, front flak turret destroyed, Beleth destroyed and the Vasudan corvette survived) I got failure music in the debriefing even though the debriefing text looked good.

Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: -Norbert- on December 07, 2016, 02:10:03 am
Cobra, your problem with the mission is very easy to correct: Simply lock up the Colossus's weapons (or at least beams) until the communication is over.

But turning the Colossus to an angle where it can reliably shoot beams at the Repulse wouldn't contradict that. It's a wise precaution to get into firing position just in case the negotiation for the surrender fails.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 07, 2016, 08:40:15 am
AFAIK the Collie should fire on the repulse with all 6 BGreens, that's why it was positioned that way in retail. 3 BGreens isn't enough to OHK an Orion. Though you could always just use armor.tbl to make that happen.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: FreeSpaceFreak on December 08, 2016, 02:01:50 pm
Re turning the Colossus - what would be the damage from a broadside impact vs. a head-on collision? I can see the CO of the Colossus not willing to risk a full-on impact on the 'body' of the ship, preferring the relatively isolated and more easily evacuated 'head' to take the brunt of the impact.

From Retail I do seem to remember the Colossus usually destroyed the Repulse before impact - and there usually was beam-hull clipping involved, if memory serves me right... Just my 2c.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 08, 2016, 02:05:40 pm
I'll figure out a way to make the Colossus kill the Repulse.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Lorric on December 08, 2016, 02:29:27 pm
Personally I'd prefer it if it didn't kill the Repulse. It's nice aesthetically if it opens fire on it, but I love how the Colossus just tanks the hit with little more than scratched paintwork. And it also shows you that Koth's action truly was futile, and shows just how strong the Colossus is, which helps establish just how strong the Sathanas is later on.

Honestly the Colossus tanking that hit is one of the most memorable moments in all of Freespace for me.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on December 08, 2016, 02:37:35 pm
The thing is I think the Repulse ramming the Colossus was a symbolic story element, showing how futile resistance from the NTF had become.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 08, 2016, 05:48:53 pm
Nah, given that both could happen in retail (afaik) I'll go with the one that doesn't make the Colossus look stupid. Jumping in to spring a trap and then having no weapons to bear is comically dumb.

Futility is announcing a ram and not even making contact.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Lorric on December 08, 2016, 05:55:30 pm
In that case I guess the next best thing would be for the Colossus to open up with as many beams as possible after the dialogue is finished and obliterate the Repulse.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on December 08, 2016, 06:49:01 pm
Or how about have the Colossus turn slightly so it can get maybe one beam off...however have the Repulse stop losing health at a certain amount (until it hits the Colossus).
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: TrashMan on December 09, 2016, 11:30:55 am
Play it right now! Included in Blue Planet.[/url]

Is there a non-bundle version?

Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 09, 2016, 12:12:24 pm
Is there a non-bundle version?
Not yet.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on December 09, 2016, 05:32:48 pm
No plans for it from the team.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Kestrellius on July 10, 2017, 10:45:40 am
So, this is a massive bump. Hopefully that's okay.

Just played through FSBlue. Thoughts:

Slaying Ravana is much better now, yeah. Kinda short, as has been mentioned.

The Morningstar is a lot of fun. To be honest, it's now one of the better weapons in the game IMO, because you can engage ships at extreme long range (for primaries) and easily score hits even on maneuverable ships. I don't think I like the green projectile, though, since the trail and shockwave are blue. It looked like it was one of the effects from FS1, maybe even from retail? It'd look a lot better with a blue or white projectile. Maybe the Balor laser, or even the Maxim bullet? Although granted, it would end up looking pretty similar to the Akheton. I don't think that's a bad thing, though, since the Akheton looks really nice and it doesn't get used too often.

The Mjolnirs in King's Gambit miss really really badly, yeah. Was able to take out the Uhuru after many many tries, by taking an Ursa with all Akhetons and two banks of Stilettos, and disabling it. Even then, it was a close thing.

I wasn't able to take out either Moloch in the nebula, from what I recall. I think on one run of Proving Grounds, the Aquitaine did fire on it, and might have destroyed it, but I failed that time because the Aquitaine was destroyed -- I was too focused on staying close to the corvette. But all the other times, the Aquitaine just didn't use its beams at all, except like one volley right after it jumped in. I would have used TaGs, but I think they weren't available in that mission...
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: SamVision on September 26, 2017, 10:39:00 pm
Freespace Blue is definitely imperfect. I like that you made Slaying Ravana less frustrating, but now it's the complete opposite: a cakewalk. Also, King's Gambit keeps crashing for me every time the Uhuru jumps in. Every time. This mission is unplayable for me.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Cobra on September 26, 2017, 11:43:27 pm
Freespace Blue is definitely imperfect. I like that you made Slaying Ravana less frustrating, but now it's the complete opposite: a cakewalk. Also, King's Gambit keeps crashing for me every time the Uhuru jumps in. Every time. This mission is unplayable for me.

We have debug builds for those things. Run the latest debug build and see if an error comes up.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: SamVision on September 27, 2017, 01:36:22 am
Nope nothing. The debug build crashes exactly the same with no error message.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: tomimaki on September 27, 2017, 04:31:08 am
Please post your fs2_open.log file.  Instructions on how to do this can be found in this post.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on September 27, 2017, 08:39:37 am
Yeah, get that log. I'm really curious what's going on here.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on September 28, 2017, 02:52:12 am
A straight CTD with no FSO-generated error message is one of the more annoying classes of errors; the debug log almost never has something useful, and the only real way to track it down is to reproduce the crash in a debugger.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on September 28, 2017, 06:31:02 pm
Is it possible that the "Database" could get put into FS2Blue like it is for other BP campaigns so we can see the intelligence entries while playing that campaign?


Also, when trying FSBlue, I noticed a minor issue with the ships database:  Why isn't the Amun bomber in the database?  The Osiris and 2 FS2 Vasudan bombers were there but not the Amun.
EDIT:  I tried regular FS2 and found the Amun wasn't there either.  So never mind on my second point (though I personally found the Amun to be better than the Osiris).
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: General Battuta on September 28, 2017, 07:35:11 pm
I don't think the Amun is in FS2, is it?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on September 28, 2017, 08:04:29 pm
I don't think the Amun is in FS2, is it?

I eventually found that it wasn't.



As to my other question:  would it be possible to get Intelligence Entries in FS2 Blue?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: CT27 on October 09, 2017, 04:33:49 pm
I just played "Endgame" in FS2 Blue.

The mission requires you to fail the secondary objective of destroying the Iceni, but I was able to accomplish the primary objective of protecting the Knossos.  In the debriefing though I got failure music.  Shouldn't the "successful" debriefing music have played?
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: Goober5000 on October 09, 2017, 04:49:52 pm
The "successful" debriefing music only plays if all primary and secondary objectives have been completed.  If any of these objectives have been failed, the "average" music plays.

Of course, the mission designer can configure the "average" condition to use the "success" music track if he so chooses.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: SamVision on January 09, 2018, 09:51:12 pm
Terribly sorry for the bump, but I am wondering if this project is still being worked on or if it is considered complete.
Title: Re: FreeSpace Blue: FreeSpace 2 as it should've been.
Post by: The E on January 10, 2018, 03:10:39 am
It is considered complete for the time being.