Hard Light Productions Forums

Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Exile => Topic started by: Nyctaeus on March 11, 2016, 01:50:24 pm

Title: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 11, 2016, 01:50:24 pm
Official discussion thread for the Into the Dark Waters and other things related to the mod.

Go ahead guys :D. We are open for questions and discussion.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 11, 2016, 01:58:51 pm
O_o
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Galemp on March 11, 2016, 04:54:19 pm
Congratulations on hosting! I guess that means you have something to impress the admins. :) I don't suppose the first act is going to be ready to play anytime soon?

If not, then I'd like to know more about this project and how it intends to act as a follow-up to the story of FS2. Politics, motivations, history, etc. Posting "Intel" tech room entries intended to be available at the start of the campaign would be an excellent conversation starter.

And, as we've seen with Shadow Genesis, you really need a dispassionate editor on staff to maintain quality control from an early stage.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 11, 2016, 05:22:52 pm
No :P. Believe me, Exile is nothing like Shadow Genesis. SG was just a first attempt at making megaproject and very partial success attempt at making high-quality mod.

Exile is something different. A mature mod, mostly inspired by top quality mods like Blue Planet, Vassago's Dirge etc. I would not insist on hosting if I don't have anything worth to be hosted here. We really made a progress since SG.

I'm not considering SG as a failure, but rather as a test. What community wants, and what our team really want etc. I don't want Exile to be judged through the SG, but rather as something that raised based on experiance gained from Shadow Genesis.

Into the Dark Waters is currently in Beta stage. We have full campaign fully playable, and soon we will begin beta testing.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Lorric on March 12, 2016, 04:56:50 pm
I wonder how long it's been since we first started hearing of this "Mystery Project?" Feels like well over a year, is that right? I hope it is a success. :nod:
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Droid803 on March 12, 2016, 05:43:32 pm
ITS ALIIIIIIIVE!!!11!1!1one!1
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 13, 2016, 08:05:16 am
I wonder how long it's been since we first started hearing of this "Mystery Project?" Feels like well over a year, is that right? I hope it is a success. :nod:
Something like that. After a lot of troubles, we are on the last lap.

It's time to rid off the "mystery" tag from this project. Or, at least, partially :P
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: eicca on March 13, 2016, 12:57:48 pm
Definitely intrigued! Is it voice-acted?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 13, 2016, 02:36:38 pm
First release of Into the Dark Waters has no VA, but we don't deny it at all :P. Mostly because we are focusing on cool and bug-free gameplay. So VA is possible in the future :P
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Rodo on March 13, 2016, 04:15:00 pm
Well... my interest is clearly piked  ;7

Come at me bro!
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on March 13, 2016, 04:22:02 pm
my interest is clearly piked
so violent
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Crashdown117 on March 14, 2016, 04:42:01 am
Just drooling on my keyboard right now ;)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Vidmaster on March 14, 2016, 10:26:50 am
Vidmaster likes this, though he would probably like it even more when voice acted :-0
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 14, 2016, 01:11:39 pm
Vidmaster likes this, though he would probably like it even more when voice acted :-0
Believe me, me too :P. Cool storyline, shiny models and good missions must be enough for now. I hope you will like it :D
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on March 14, 2016, 02:56:03 pm
This looks cool and I'll certainly play it when it comes out. :)

VA would be good too, however, my advice would be to do the regular campaign first and maybe have version 2.0 down the road have voice acting.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Ulala on March 14, 2016, 05:21:18 pm
I want to play it! Looking forward to it :)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Bryan See on March 15, 2016, 01:45:18 am
Wanting to collaborate or working on it. Looking forward, though! :)

Anyway, I've got a mod started in December 2014, when can I host it?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 15, 2016, 08:55:09 am
Wanting to collaborate or working on it. Looking forward, though! :)

Anyway, I've got a mod started in December 2014, when can I host it?
I may PM you if you need your skills :). For now we are full team, have proper beta-testers and not recruting new team members.

You can actually post your request in this forum (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?board=22.0). However in case of Shattered Stars or any other project you have, I don't advise it.

I'm not gonna discourage you :P, but face the truth. I'm here from.... 7 years? I've released tons of stuff, collaborated with numerous people on various projects, and I do a lot of things here. In short, I'm known. Before Exile two projects got hosting here - Frontlines by Black Wolf and Dimensional Eclipse with Droid803 in command. All three of us are old modders with lot of experiance. If HLP Administrators grant somebody's project hosting, it mean trust.

You have two unfinished projects with no stable future, four started models, one finished one thanks to collab with me. I think you need... A little bit more to show yourself as potential project leader of hosted project. It's not my call anyway.

Keep in mind mow many archived projects are here, and the names are Admiral Nelson, Galemp, Shiv etc. Modders older than me, all well known. HLP high rulers are your friends, but I'm fully aware why they are quite cautious at granting hosting for new projects.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on March 16, 2016, 05:19:18 pm
Between this and Shadow Genesis Reborn you're going to have a busy year huh? :)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on March 16, 2016, 07:25:30 pm
Between this and Shadow Genesis Reborn you're going to have a busy year huh? :)
Well, we already have, we've just kept it secret before :P. But yes, we want to release Exile and then at once switch to Shadow Genesis.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 16, 2016, 10:25:28 pm
We will start SG:R immediately, after release of ItDW :). I already prepared a lot of new models for Reborn, including vasudan fleetpack and missile cruiser for Nightmares... And new cyan beams. Cool as f*** beams!

But they have to wait. Important things are... Important :P, and Exile is currently the most important of them.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Xelion on March 18, 2016, 02:11:08 am
It a complex mod designed to extend every aspect of the game.
VA should be included with the initial release


You will fight, you will suffer, you will be terrified
and you want me to win :shaking:


25 action-packed missions and cutscenes
Is this only one act? The original campaign told a lot of story in 29 missions and if the first act has got just as many missions and you have 4 acts :wtf: that'll make this mod a monster of a story


Experience campaign of the best possible visual quality, made in age of FSO 3.7.3 and MediaVPs 2014. Exile is a complete mod of outstanding size, with plenty of new models, effects, backgrounds, music, sounds and much more!
My expectations are off the scale :P nevertheless I'm still looking forward to this. I've read the fiction so far and it sounds appealing. Make it a good story!
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on March 18, 2016, 02:35:08 am
It a complex mod designed to extend every aspect of the game.
VA should be included with the initial release
Are you volunteering to direct the whole operation?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 18, 2016, 05:06:29 am
It a complex mod designed to extend every aspect of the game.
VA should be included with the initial release
It should, but it's amount of work that's hard to imagine. I'm looking at guys from BP and how much time they spent on voice acting AoA and WiH. Sometimes I'm wondering what took more time and efforts - mod itself or VA.
So VA is a luxury that is beyond our current skills.

You will fight, you will suffer, you will be terrified
and you want me to win :shaking:
A win means something totally different in case of Exile. Our missions are much easier than missions from SG. This part is refering to our story. From the plot perspective, win means.... Staying alive :P.

25 action-packed missions and cutscenes
Is this only one act? The original campaign told a lot of story in 29 missions and if the first act has got just as many missions and you have 4 acts :wtf: that'll make this mod a monster of a story
Into the Dark Waters is 25 missions and cutscenes long and believe me, we have only a few missions designed stricte to incrase length of campaign :P. A story behind the Exile is a long and multi-threaded. Each act will bring you different feelings and push different aspects of the storyline forward... And each act is intense. While I like plot of Shadow Genesis, it's still old scenario of madman who opened ancient portal and let mysterious, dark race invade terran controlled space. Pretty classic and overused scenario among FS modding community.

Exile is something different that uses no known schemes :P. Storyline is one of the best things which Exile has to offer. I would clearly consider it as my opus magnum, if not my WiP dark-fantasy novel :)

Experience campaign of the best possible visual quality, made in age of FSO 3.7.3 and MediaVPs 2014. Exile is a complete mod of outstanding size, with plenty of new models, effects, backgrounds, music, sounds and much more!
My expectations are off the scale :P nevertheless I'm still looking forward to this. I've read the fiction so far and it sounds appealing. Make it a good story!
I hope we won't disappoint you :)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Bryan See on March 18, 2016, 06:44:14 am
Wanting to collaborate or working on it. Looking forward, though! :)

Anyway, I've got a mod started in December 2014, when can I host it?
I may PM you if you need your skills :). For now we are full team, have proper beta-testers and not recruting new team members.

You can actually post your request in this forum (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?board=22.0). However in case of Shattered Stars or any other project you have, I don't advise it.

I'm not gonna discourage you :P, but face the truth. I'm here from.... 7 years? I've released tons of stuff, collaborated with numerous people on various projects, and I do a lot of things here. In short, I'm known. Before Exile two projects got hosting here - Frontlines by Black Wolf and Dimensional Eclipse with Droid803 in command. All three of us are old modders with lot of experiance. If HLP Administrators grant somebody's project hosting, it mean trust.

You have two unfinished projects with no stable future, four started models, one finished one thanks to collab with me. I think you need... A little bit more to show yourself as potential project leader of hosted project. It's not my call anyway.

Keep in mind mow many archived projects are here, and the names are Admiral Nelson, Galemp, Shiv etc. Modders older than me, all well known. HLP high rulers are your friends, but I'm fully aware why they are quite cautious at granting hosting for new projects.

I tried clicking on that link (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?board=22.0), but this forum appears to be non-existent right now. Anyway, in case of Shattered Stars or any other project you have, I don't need it, though I have a ModDB page on my current project I'm working on: www.moddb.com/mods/shattered-stars (http://www.moddb.com/mods/shattered-stars).

For the record, I have two campaigns, FreeSpace: Reunited and Shattered Stars. The former proved to be overly ambitious for me to undertake, so I decided to start a non-FSR campaign without voice-acting, which resulted in the latter, set in the same universe of the 2012 Total Recall remake. I hosted this on GitHub, which contains missions FREDded by me. I acted as modeller, writer, FREDder, tabler, beta-tester, etc.

As for models, I have five started models; one of which was released last month and improved with PBR assets and a shielded mesh. The other four models are HTL remakes of the existing FS ships to be included on the next MediaVPs, namely those neglected ones, though Mjn.Mixael has textured the Azrael. The fourth and last one appears to be started recently, and I am going to take the suggestions from others regarding this.

Thank you for that.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 18, 2016, 09:49:16 am
Got that, and now get back, stop making offtop, and stick to the topic. This thread is mine :P
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on March 18, 2016, 02:14:08 pm
Quote
25 action-packed missions and cutscenes
Is this only one act? The original campaign told a lot of story in 29 missions and if the first act has got just as many missions and you have 4 acts :wtf: that'll make this mod a monster of a story
If you played Shadow Genesis, you must know we only make huge campaigns :P.

Quote
Experience campaign of the best possible visual quality, made in age of FSO 3.7.3 and MediaVPs 2014. Exile is a complete mod of outstanding size, with plenty of new models, effects, backgrounds, music, sounds and much more!
My expectations are off the scale :P nevertheless I'm still looking forward to this. I've read the fiction so far and it sounds appealing. Make it a good story!
Expect more pieces of fiction in a few days :). We're going to publish several articles as an introduction to Exile lore and main storyline.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Xelion on March 19, 2016, 08:19:06 am
Then you must know I never played Shadow Genesis. Will look into it though ;) More fiction. Oh Joy :yes:


Are you volunteering to direct the whole operation?
No :P I wouldn't commit to something I have no experience or knowledge in, I'd just be letting the team down. I could contribute in another way though ;)


Exile is something different that uses no known schemes :P. Storyline is one of the best things which Exile has to offer. I would clearly consider it as my opus magnum, if not my WiP dark-fantasy novel :)
I'm excited to hear this :nod: Really looking forward to how the story ties in with the dialogue and game play.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Gee1337 on March 27, 2016, 07:45:50 pm
Daft question... maybe... as I'm not quite clear on this, but this IS the fabled "Mystery Project"?

Yes/No?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on March 28, 2016, 04:18:03 am
Daft question... maybe... as I'm not quite clear on this, but this IS the fabled "Mystery Project"?

Yes/No?
Yes :).
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on June 16, 2016, 01:40:16 pm
How's Exile going?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Col.Hornet on June 16, 2016, 01:47:58 pm
University is going :/ Betrayal is graduating this month and I'm battling my own exams. Sadly I won't have much time after exams either. I'm joining the Navy for a two week practice in Hydrographic department.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on June 16, 2016, 01:57:22 pm
University is going :/ Betrayal is graduating this month and I'm battling my own exams. Sadly I won't have much time after exams either. I'm joining the Navy for a two week practice in Hydrographic department.

Sounds interesting; what exactly does "Hydrographic department" mean?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Col.Hornet on June 16, 2016, 02:13:52 pm
It's a section responsible for creating and updating maritime navigational charts. They are also responsible for sonar surveys and search operations (to detect old mines and dangerous junk that may lay on the sea bottom and be a potential danger for marine traffic) In short :P

But after my work is done I hope that I will catch up with the models I'm preparing for the mod.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on June 16, 2016, 05:15:38 pm
We're making cool things.

As always.

We just have a small delay :P. Infamous "real life issues" and stuff. Stay tuned. We will give ya something cool. I promise :]
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: JCDNWarrior on June 16, 2016, 07:30:20 pm
I hope you'll both do well, Col. Hornet and Betrayal. I look forward to see development of Exile continue soon. For me personally the break in development coincided favorably as the past months have been very busy for me as well, so at least I haven't missed out much on development.

Don't forget to celebrate after you've passed though!
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on June 17, 2016, 05:13:28 am
I'm going to be constantly drunk for a month or even more when I'm done with my school :P.

I think we will resume development next week or something like that. While Macielos is still very busy, I can continue working on assets and other stuff that's needed.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: jayanthvarma.b on August 01, 2017, 01:09:10 am
In the Exile logo "मुक्ति एकता प्रगति" were added below. Is it just in the logo or is there anything related to hindi or sanskrit in the game ? I just want to know to which extent the words are related to the game.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on August 01, 2017, 08:53:42 am
They are "freedom", "progress" and "unity" in sanskrit. Three the most important virtues that ORS is build on.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 06, 2017, 03:16:58 pm
Now that it's been released, I can say that I really enjoyed this campaign.  I was a gamma tester on this.  The mood was created well.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: 5thAce on November 07, 2017, 05:28:00 pm
Anyone know if there is a way to enable text-to-speech during gameplay somehow? Text-to-speech works in briefings and debriefings but not while in a mission. I'm playing on 3.8.0. I've played through the first couple of missions, so far so good!
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Trivial Psychic on November 07, 2017, 09:14:12 pm
You enable it in the launcher, just as for the briefings & techroom, but if the messages have a real audio file (even if it's just a beep), it'll play that and not the TTS.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: 5thAce on November 07, 2017, 09:19:35 pm
You enable it in the launcher, just as for the briefings & techroom, but if the messages have a real audio file (even if it's just a beep), it'll play that and not the TTS.

Ah I see, I do have TTS enabled in the launcher for In-game but still nothing comes up during gameplay, I'm guessing there is some real audio file preventing the TTS from doing its thing.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 08, 2017, 06:10:39 am
Exactly. Exile uses two types of "beeps" for messages. We assumed this was better option, rather than just text lines.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 08, 2017, 10:56:45 am
Just FYI, if you make your beep filenames one of the list "cuevoice", "emptymsg", "generic", or "msgstart", TTS will work regardless (and preempt the beep).
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 08, 2017, 05:57:51 pm
Nyctaeus, do you want me to post the achievements list here that you PMed me (I'd put it in spoiler text of course)?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 08, 2017, 06:18:09 pm
Nyctaeus, do you want me to post the achievements list here that you PMed me (I'd put it in spoiler text of course)?
It's already posted in Library thread. With some small updates :P
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 08, 2017, 06:21:01 pm
Nyctaeus, do you want me to post the achievements list here that you PMed me (I'd put it in spoiler text of course)?
It's already posted in Library thread. With some small updates :P

What's the "library thread"? (link)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 08, 2017, 07:24:53 pm
Akin to BP, I decided to keep all downloads in library thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=91672.0). Including ItDW release.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 08, 2017, 08:46:32 pm
I looked in that link and I didn't see the list of achievements.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 08, 2017, 09:12:20 pm
Okay... It's strange. I posted it yesterday if I remember correctly. Now it's gone o__O.

Fixed.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CKid on November 09, 2017, 07:03:56 pm
Played the first few missions and I'm loving every moment of it. Outstanding job on the cut-scenes. I'm getting some of the same vibes as from the "Into the depths of Hell" campaigns.

Spoiler:
That one mission evacuating the large space city hit me in the feels. Fought hard to protect the shuttles, trying to save as many civilians as possible only to be forced to kill the rest.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 09, 2017, 08:22:17 pm
Played the first few missions and I'm loving every moment of it. Outstanding job on the cut-scenes. I'm getting some of the same vibes as from the "Into the depths of Hell" campaigns.

Spoiler:
That one mission evacuating the large space city hit me in the feels. Fought hard to protect the shuttles, trying to save as many civilians as possible only to be forced to kill the rest.
Spoiler:
Let 3 of rogue shuttles get into Abraham. If you manage to save all [but 2] in previous parts of mission, you gonna get achievemet.

As for ItDoH, well... Very good association :)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: kimo on November 10, 2017, 03:38:02 pm
So first thoughts after finishing campaign (Except that it is great ;) )

1.
Spoiler:
So Earth go full nazi? Suprisingly that give me some grim satisfaction. I always though that isolation will go bad for Sol. On the other hand... WTF earthers ?! Nuking cities?! Murdering hundreds of milions civilians?! Walker, I hope you didn't die too fast...

2. 
11 billion for Mars? Isn't that a little too much? How big is Earth population? For that matter: how big is EFN and ORS?

3.
Spoiler:
For some reasons Earth's destruction didn't give me chills. Probably because I was expecting it ('Exile', picture of Sathanas in bombarding position). More melancholic was thought, that when GTVA contruct portal to Sol, they will find only death and destruction. And this time it will not be interdimensional jump :( . At least they will be able to just shut down the portal, right? ... right?

4.
Speaking of dimensions. Is Exile in the same universe as Shadow Genesis? Or are they completely separate creations ?

5.
Spoiler:
Wait, did Altair lost connection to GTVA?

6.
Spoiler:
(Delta) Serpentians? "...long had we been the destroyer...[/i]" ?

7.
Spoiler:
Could you give us some info about Rossendarch's fleet? Is it bigger than Syndicates? On that matter: how big Exodus Fleet should be? Meaning: how many survivors (in total) Tessandras expected?

8.
Spoiler:
Galactica vibes from Ironclad  :yes: And generally BSG / Quarians feels from campaign :)

9.
Spoiler:
Is Mastermind older than Ancients?

10.
Spoiler:
Will Exodus Fleet met GTVA? Will Rossendarch's fleet met GTVA? Will Exodus Fleet met Rossendarch's fleet? Will Fives shag Swifty?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 10, 2017, 04:39:03 pm
1.
Spoiler:
So Earth go full nazi? Suprisingly that give me some grim satisfaction. I always though that isolation will go bad for Sol. On the other hand... WTF earthers ?! Nuking cities?! Murdering hundreds of milions civilians?! Walker, I hope you didn't die too fast...
Spoiler:
"Nazi" is not a proper word here. EFN is no racist, etc. and more centered around earth elitism philosophy. Also Earth economy and politics is dominated by powefull lobbist and corporation influences, draining off earther, lunar and martial financial and economical potential, finally leading to their eventual economical collapse. EFN is more like corporational oligarchy.

2. 
11 billion for Mars? Isn't that a little too much? How big is Earth population? For that matter: how big is EFN and ORS?
Spoiler:
Mars was primary target for intense reolocation of population efforts, furtherly used as main food supply for very polluted and slowly collapsing Earth society. Earth was struggling with overpopulation for decades, but as Sol-Delta Serpentis node collapsed just after first major wave of migration, other planets become primary target again. Majority of Mars population was relocated from Earth after the Great War, so it's final population was 2-3 billion people smaller than Earth's. Outer Rim was another story. Estimated population of Outer Rim is 7-8 billion, with majority living on terratormed "ocean moons".

3.
Spoiler:
For some reasons Earth's destruction didn't give me chills. Probably because I was expecting it ('Exile', picture of Sathanas in bombarding position). More melancholic was thought, that when GTVA contruct portal to Sol, they will find only death and destruction. And this time it will not be interdimensional jump :( . At least they will be able to just shut down the portal, right? ... right?
Spoiler:
GTVA probably won't ever be able construct Sol Gate. Situation of GTVA is much more grim in Exile timeline, as it wasn't end of their problems with Shivans.

4.
Speaking of dimensions. Is Exile in the same universe as Shadow Genesis? Or are they completely separate creations ?
No. Exile is independent continuation.

5.
Spoiler:
Wait, did Altair lost connection to GTVA?
Spoiler:
Altair was, in fact, just first. Subspace cataclysm caused by Capella star wasn't responsible only for formation of Sol-Beta Volantis jump node, but also for numerous changes of subspace node network inside GTVA space. Some systems, like Altair, were permanently lost. While other, completly new ones just opened

6.
Spoiler:
(Delta) Serpentians? "...long had we been the destroyer...[/i]" ?
Spoiler:
Native species of Delta Serpentis. Wiped out by early terran military expeditions, to give terran colonists access to planets of Delta Serpentis. Erased from official records, but as Admiral Tessandras was former GTI officer, he had access to everything


7.
Spoiler:
Could you give us some info about Rossendarch's fleet? Is it bigger than Syndicates? On that matter: how big Exodus Fleet should be? Meaning: how many survivors (in total) Tessandras expected?
Spoiler:
One modiffied Praetor-class destroyer [Sovereign], 4 elite Talos-class destroyers [Gideon, Potemkin, Cromwell, Dortmunder], 4 sleeperships based on Praetor-carriers, numerous frigates and cruises, and small number of utility vessels. 1,3 milion of active personel, and 3 millions in hypersleep. Overally similar to Syndicate Exodus Fleet in terms of size and firepower, but much better equipped and prepared for long, interstellar journey.

8.
Spoiler:
Galactica vibes from Ironclad  :yes: And generally BSG / Quarians feels from campaign :)
Spoiler:
BSG was one of our major sources of inspiration :P. BSG and Homeworld to be precise. We wanted Syndicate Exodus Fleet to be much, much bigger, better equipped, and capable of performing multiple military operations at the same time. And Exodus Fleet retain ability to produce new warships up to frigate size.

Exile is actually based on dumped, unfinished mod by Droid803 and ShadowGorrath called Project Outreach. You may still find a dump somerhere here.

9.
Spoiler:
Is Mastermind older than Ancients?
Spoiler:
Probably :]

10.
Spoiler:
Will Exodus Fleet met GTVA? Will Rossendarch's fleet met GTVA? Will Exodus Fleet met Rossendarch's fleet? Will Fives shag Swifty?
Spoiler:
Maybe. No. Yes... And no :P

Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: kimo on November 11, 2017, 11:09:33 am
Spoiler:
GTVA probably won't ever be able construct Sol Gate. Situation of GTVA is much more grim in Exile timeline, as it wasn't end of their problems with Shivans.

Spoiler:
Altair was, in fact, just first. Subspace cataclysm caused by Capella star wasn't responsible only for formation of Sol-Beta Volantis jump node, but also for numerous changes of subspace node network inside GTVA space. Some systems, like Altair, were permanently lost. While other, completly new ones just opened

Spoiler:
Damn. That doesn't bode well for Alliance

No. Exile is independent continuation.
So no connections between Exodus Fleet and unknown, Terran-looking ship from SG... But it still could be from Sol  :)

Spoiler:
Will Exodus Fleet met GTVA? Will Rossendarch's fleet met GTVA? Will Exodus Fleet met Rossendarch's fleet? Will Fives shag Swifty?
Spoiler:
Maybe. No. Yes... And no :P
Spoiler:
I wonder how Leibniz and his men would react to meeting with Rossendarch's fleet
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CKid on November 11, 2017, 11:47:25 am
Just finished the mission "Dangerous Game" and I got no debriefing. As far as I know, I completed all objectives.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 11, 2017, 11:50:41 am
No. Exile is independent continuation.
So no connections between Exodus Fleet and unknown, Terran-looking ship from SG... But it still could be from Sol  :)
Spoiler:
It isn't from Sol. It belong to Enclave faction. They were terrans... Once.

Spoiler:
Will Exodus Fleet met GTVA? Will Rossendarch's fleet met GTVA? Will Exodus Fleet met Rossendarch's fleet? Will Fives shag Swifty?
Spoiler:
Maybe. No. Yes... And no :P
Spoiler:
I wonder how Leibniz and his men would react to meeting with Rossendarch's fleet
It would be hard for him because Rossendarch has very... Progressive agenda. His quote is mentioned in introduction post of Exile, so it may reveal a lot for you. Anyway, eventual meeting with GTVA would be perhaps even harder, as EFN was never friendly towards vasudan.

Just finished the mission "Dangerous Game" and I got no debriefing. As far as I know, I completed all objectives.
Were you able to pass through to next mission?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CKid on November 11, 2017, 12:07:58 pm
Yes
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CKid on November 11, 2017, 12:57:04 pm
Tested the mission in the techroom and turns out if you use the checkpoint system, you get no debriefing. Played it twice. Once having to load a checkpoint and once without.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: starwolf1991 on November 11, 2017, 07:35:01 pm
At the time of writing, I am ten missions through the campaign and about to start the eleventh; The intro cutscene and the first few missions quickly hooked me. There have been times where I admit I was a little confused by certain dialogue or their grammar.; wasn't sure what to make of a few things. However, it is only a minor distraction from the real treats that Exile offers. Hats off to the team for its superb work; I am really enjoying the narrative, atmosphere, cutscenes and audio/visual quality.

Spoiler:
Oh, and that one mission in the prologue act which made me want to cold shower in guilt. I can't really think of many games that have had that effect with me. Very well played.

Well done with the release of Exile! I look forward to playing through the rest of Into The Dark Waters!
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on November 12, 2017, 10:37:17 am
Sorry if I take some time to post my thoughts and questions. I don't often have time and energy to play through full missions. But I'm totally appreciative of the work you guys put into this and I am playing it.  :D
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Vidmaster on November 12, 2017, 01:07:18 pm
Problematic first impression here...       long cutscene (1), followed by a long cutscene (2) and then I am in the subspace tunnel. Tension builds :-) and dialog (3) supports it. We emerge into the battlefield and I am instructed to take out the beam. Uncautious as I am, I fly towards my target and start pounding that ship. I get killed. My attempted replay is quickly disincentiviced by the way that I am back at (2) and I seemingly cannot skip forward. There was a hint around (3) to skip (3) but I am at (2). Taking to the HLP forums to post this instead.

Will replay tomorrow.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on November 12, 2017, 02:51:54 pm
Sorry, we have implemented skipping long dialogs, but not skipping cutscenes. But you can always use time compression in the beginning. It automatically resets after the cutscene.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 12, 2017, 09:57:24 pm
Two questions:

1-Were there any Vasudans in Exodus Fleet or did all Vasudans in Sol at the time of the Lucifer's explosion die off by the time of Exile?

2-  Is there a way to differentiate between the Federate and Syndicate military fleets?  For instance, in Blue Planet you can generally say the UEF military is built around heavily armored ships that overwhelm opponents with mass amounts of firepower and GTVA ships in general seem to be more built around maneuverability and high-damage shock jump precision attacks.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 13, 2017, 10:01:39 am
1. Not really. There were not many vasudans in Sol when Delta Serpentis-Sol node collapsed, and all of them are presumbly assimilated by terran society. We may introduce some vasudan character in Act II.

2. Syndicate warships are more heavily armored than EFN counterparts, and have more sustained way of dealing damage. EFN is all about fast-firing torpedoes and plasma cannons to deal damage as fast as possible, but they have lighter armor. EFN were also very dependant on their bomber wings, while ORS capships are their main source of anti-capital damage. Additionally ORS warships are all about self-sustaining for extended periods, while EFN rely mostly on constant logistics support. That was direct reason why Redemption wasn't used before Entrenchment. Still both factions have lots of similarities, because they were frequently adapting technological advancements of other side.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on November 14, 2017, 07:57:42 pm
Finished the first mission and subsequent cutscene.

Aesthetic is easily my favorite part of this mod so far. Everything's crisp and oh-so cool to look at. Colorful weapons keep things interesting and help me to differentiate easily in combat. Epic cutscenes! Music is great too, where are you guys getting it all from?

Dialogue might be a little heavy on the language, but it looks like you guys thought it out well.

Spoiler:
The horror I felt at abandoning Earth and watching it's systematic destruction... wow. Well done.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 15, 2017, 05:32:04 am
Other games, TV series, indie composers, royality-free libraries and also other mods. Tons of sources, all credited in outro cutscene. I tried to avoid music with heavy copyrights.

Overall, modpack of Exile accumulate long years of modding. I personally spend the most preparing models. Majority of them were my learning subjects, ranging from SC Daeva [first model I ever converted] to later HTLs like Vitalius. Still majority of Exile models are kinda outdated for me.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: starwolf1991 on November 15, 2017, 05:50:42 am
Just finished the campaign tonight! What a long ride through hell and back and all the sweet satisfaction that came from at the end of it. By the conclusion, I ended up with 12/19 achievements and Triple Aced. Definitely planning on replaying it again later on, once I've finished letting victory sink in.  :D

Having finished it, I thought I should provide some points on problems or bugs I encountered during my playthrough for reference. They are, in spoiler tags, as follows:

Spoiler:
1. Mission 11 'Dangerous Game' -- As aforementioned by another, no mission debriefing was issued despite completing all objectives and a successful outcome of the mission.

2A.  Mission 21 'Lost in Space' -- The grey color of the anomalies made them difficult at times to read on the hud.
2B. Proximity detection was also a bit wonky at the third beacon. Had to reload the mission two times before it wanted to play ball and let me proceed.

3. Missions 22 'Day of Reckoning' -- My first attempt of this mission, Gamma wing was destroyed before the first checkpoint was issued. I perished sometime after in the closing minutes. On my second attempt, the checkpoint did not factor in that Gamma wing had been wiped out. I had a completely fresh wing of bombers ready to fight as a result.

4A. Mission 26 'Sol Invictus' -- I was awarded the achievement for keeping all ships above 40% hull integrity. However, when it was awarded, I noticed the Anjaneya was NOT above 40%. Is it counted toward the goal?
4B. Between after the Anjaneya arrives and before the cutscene showing the Tyrant's destruction, all music abruptly cuts. Nothing plays until the cutscene begins.

On a side note, I'd also like to point out a missing point in the models section of the credits. Once again, in spoiler tag:

Spoiler:
For the GTF Durandal, listed in the models archive as 'Exile_EFN_Durandal.pof, I am personally credited on the HLP wikia for its concept and original table data. You've already credited FreeSpaceFreak (FSF) in the models section (He did all the other bits of the Durandal) so that is all good. Could I please ask that this be corrected if you make any patches to Exile? I've included a link to its wikia page for reference:
http://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/GTF_Durandal


Once again, well done with Exile and thank you for all the entertainment it brought!
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 15, 2017, 07:40:28 am
Thank you :]. All noted and fixes will be included in upcoming patch.

As for Durandal, I'm really sorry for not including you in credits list. If I remember correctly when I took this model, only FSF was listed. I've got it from Dimensional Eclipse or FreeSpaceMods. Don't exactly remember. We will include your nickname in 1.1 patch as well.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: starwolf1991 on November 15, 2017, 07:52:47 am
As for Durandal, I'm really sorry for not including you in credits list. If I remember correctly when I took this model, only FSF was listed. I've got it from Dimensional Eclipse or FreeSpaceMods. Don't exactly remember. We will include your nickname in 1.1 patch as well.

Thanks! I do remember it was included in Dimensional Eclipse from a while back now so all is good there!
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on November 15, 2017, 03:33:33 pm
We're glad you liked the Exile :).

Spoiler:
4A. Mission 26 'Sol Invictus' -- I was awarded the achievement for keeping all ships above 40% hull integrity. However, when it was awarded, I noticed the Anjaneya was NOT above 40%. Is it counted toward the goal?
Spoiler:
Ok, the description is a bit misleading. You need to keep over 40% Ironclad's battlegroup only (Ironclad, Harmattan, Andrasta and Akka).
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CKid on November 15, 2017, 09:51:32 pm
Done the campaign. Extremely impressed with has been created here. Earlier I mentioned that it felt like ItDoH, well I guess I hit the nail on the head. Small confession, ItDoH was my favorite and most played campaign until the original release of BP: AoA, so getting to play something so similar really got me hooked quickly.

Spoiler:
All missions played well without any major hiccups or bugs. (Besides the one with the missing debrief) Playing on Hard difficulty was challenging but never impossible. However I did have to drop it to medium for the mission "Distraction" due to the fact that the ORF Defender's primary weapons energy capacity sucks and there is a lot of targets to kill before they escape.

Use of the fiction viewer was a nice touch. It's a great way to get the Fleetmasters different points of view, really lets you connect with them as they do their best to guide the fleet through hell. The commander of the Halifax can be one very scary SOB.

Hell of a job creating the cut-scenes. Seeing Paris and the Eiffel tower being blown away in an orbit bombardment and shuttles escaping the space installation certainly stood out the most for me. Great selection of music which matched the tone of the mission being played. Some great tracks to listen to while killing shivans.

One issue I would like to bring up is the lack of information of the EFN in the Fleet. We are told that there was survivors from many planets including Earth and Mars however we not told about what EFN forces joined us. Its not until about half way through the campaign in the mission "Apple of Discord" that we meet our first EFN ship since the exodus but at this time because no one mentioned to tell us what EFN assets are in the fleet, we don't know if any of them are friendly. Even later in the game when we are briefed on the new fleet formations (Roaming fleet, Heavy fleet, ex) the Federate task force including the EFD Redemption is not mentioned at all. Imagine my surprise 4 missions later and 2/3 of the way through the game that a EFN Destroyer, 1/4 of the Exodus fleet's destroyer complement shows up out of nowhere to assist a node blockade. I had to check the techroom database just read about them.

Nothing else to say other then that I love this campaign and can't wait to see what's in store next. Also got 12/19 achievements on my first run.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on November 16, 2017, 04:07:48 pm
Spoiler:
Hell of a job creating the cut-scenes. Seeing Paris and the Eiffel tower being blown away in an orbit bombardment and shuttles escaping the space installation certainly stood out the most for me. Great selection of music which matched the tone of the mission being played. Some great tracks to listen to while killing shivans.

Spoiler:
Well, Fall of Earth was a tremendous work for me, setting cameras, preparing Paris and its surroundings being evacuated, placing all these skyscrapers, explosion effects simulating beams hitting the surface... We even reached the limit of 400 ships in Fred when adding skyscrapers on the hills around Paris :P.

BTW, did nobody so far notice an easter egg on the Eiffel Tower? :)

Quote
Spoiler:
One issue I would like to bring up is the lack of information of the EFN in the Fleet. We are told that there was survivors from many planets including Earth and Mars however we not told about what EFN forces joined us. Its not until about half way through the campaign in the mission "Apple of Discord" that we meet our first EFN ship since the exodus but at this time because no one mentioned to tell us what EFN assets are in the fleet, we don't know if any of them are friendly. Even later in the game when we are briefed on the new fleet formations (Roaming fleet, Heavy fleet, ex) the Federate task force including the EFD Redemption is not mentioned at all. Imagine my surprise 4 missions later and 2/3 of the way through the game that a EFN Destroyer, 1/4 of the Exodus fleet's destroyer complement shows up out of nowhere to assist a node blockade. I had to check the techroom database just read about them.
Spoiler:
Hmm, originally Caliphtys didn't mention EFN or Admiral Leibniz in his speech about fleet organization because by this time Federate Task Force was effectively dissolved following the events in Apple of Discord and EFN ships were split among various ORS fleets. And Redemption itself was out of fight, so we didn't see it on any war theatre. We only know about EFN presence from briefing of Distraction, we know they're on our side, but we do not know the scale.

But now when I think about it, you are right. We'll probably add some info about EFN ships in the fleet when we work on the patch.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: kimo on November 17, 2017, 01:23:41 pm
Spoiler:
"When all hope for Earth seemed lost, France made her last stand against the Shivan invasion and used her most deadly weapon..."
Evil  :wakka:
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 18, 2017, 02:16:11 pm
I thought of an interesting dialogue addition to the final mission "Sol Invictus":

Spoiler:
  When it looked like the Ironclad might have to close the Knossos before everyone got through and trap themselves in the system so the Shivans couldn't get to Andromeda...maybe there should have been some dialogue by the Ironclad CO telling the fighters to go on ahead.  It could have been something like "Pilots, we can't make it but there's no reason for you to sacrifice yourselves.  You can still be of help to Exodus Fleet, go jump through the Knossos when I give the signal."

It would have been rendered moot when the reinforcements came from beyond the Knossos, but militarily I don't see why they didn't try to get the fighters through.  Capships may not have been able to get through those two Shivan destroyers, but fighters could get past them I think. [/spoilers]
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Vidmaster on November 19, 2017, 11:05:59 am
I like it thus far, despite the problematic introduction and my first contact. A campaign like this would benefit tremendously from being voice acted.

Edit: Later impressions on page 5.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on November 19, 2017, 04:04:08 pm
Alright, I've already fixed most of the issues mentioned in this topic, we'll soon need someone to check our dialogs and improve their style a bit. Any volunteers? :P

Spoiler:
4B. Between after the Anjaneya arrives and before the cutscene showing the Tyrant's destruction, all music abruptly cuts. Nothing plays until the cutscene begins.
Spoiler:
Hmm, to be honest I can't reproduce this error. Did the music stop exactly after Anjaneya arrived or some time later? Did you use any checkpoints or get an achievement "Dream Team"?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 20, 2017, 11:04:24 pm
In this universe, how is the GTVA doing during the events of Exile?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: starwolf1991 on November 21, 2017, 12:26:22 am
Alright, I've already fixed most of the issues mentioned in this topic, we'll soon need someone to check our dialogs and improve their style a bit. Any volunteers? :P

Spoiler:
4B. Between after the Anjaneya arrives and before the cutscene showing the Tyrant's destruction, all music abruptly cuts. Nothing plays until the cutscene begins.
Spoiler:
Hmm, to be honest I can't reproduce this error. Did the music stop exactly after Anjaneya arrived or some time later? Did you use any checkpoints or get an achievement "Dream Team"?

1. Checking and improving dialogues? I'd certainly be willing, if you or Nyctaeus are onboard with that. Some of it is a tad confusing but if pointed in the right direction, then all should be grand. I'd be happy to discuss this further over PM.

2. The music stopped some time after the aforementioned arrival. I succeeded in the mission on the first try; no checkpoints were used and the achievement was awarded. 
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: kimo on November 22, 2017, 05:23:46 pm
In this universe, how is the GTVA doing during the events of Exile?
Spoiler:
From what Nyctaeus already said:
1. Supernova in Capella system caused massive shift in jump nodes network. Some GTVA systems are now cut off, other gained access to unexplored stars.
2. Second Shivan Incursion was not the end of problems with Shivans.
3. "GTVA probably won't ever be able construct Sol Gate."

So in short their situation is either bad or very bad :(
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on November 23, 2017, 02:44:51 pm
Spoiler:
It's rather 'very bad' than 'bad'.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on November 25, 2017, 06:34:20 pm
Spoiler:
It's rather 'very bad' than 'bad'.
Spoiler:
...but not worse than "very bad" :P. They won't be destroyed.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Viko on November 30, 2017, 11:15:57 am
Just finished the campaign ...

Seriously it has been a very long time since i enjoyed this much  :D

The story, the background, the missions even the cutscenes ... outstanding work !!!

Again THANK YOU  :yes: :yes:

Can't wait for the next chapter !!!

Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on December 01, 2017, 09:42:55 am
We're glad you like it :). It's been three long years of development :P
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Vidmaster on December 10, 2017, 03:08:54 pm
I continued playing too. Still kinda torn here.
 
*PLEASE* do not be offended or anything but I think its not very fun in parts. I like a lot of the stuff that I have seen, especially the dark tones in the story. But from a gameplay standpoint, I often feel ill equiped for what I am supposed to do. The worst offender thus far was the mission in which you have to destroy the communication nodes of the Shivans. It is basically on an FS1-level of "shooting a destroyer for minutes until it dies". Even the transports are though to crack in that level. Maybe I am totally mismanaging my equipment but in that case I would argue that I have not been briefed in any way to suggest I should pack something specific.

Of course one could argue that an ill equipped army supports the back-against-the-wall theme but at least for me its not doing that. I only feel frustrated and considering that bombers and capships do seem to be available if necessary, some sections just feel like needlessly streched, similar to the bad missions in FS1.

For reference, I have been playing on Medium (3 of 5).
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on December 10, 2017, 05:04:17 pm
If you refer to first comm node, it's been weakned especially for players who hate shoothing at single target for minute or two. For the rest, you have two wings of fighters to help you destroy all tougher targets without shooting everything for too long time. Besides, all shivan utility ships are optional targets. You are not required to do everything you have on your directive list, but... Well, you can.

Also you have bomber wing to deal with targets you weren't able to take down with firepower you had. Protecting them is essential for faster, and more effective progress... And there is artillery frigate. Keep her safe and she will deal with everything, including comm nodes. You are not ill-equipped for this mission. You are just not supposed to blow up whole shivan depot alone. This mission is tacical. You have to manage your wingman to achieve your goals and destroying all targets in depot is supposed to be harder.

Official advice: Leave comm nodes. Focus on destroying other targets. Akka or bombers will deal with them.
In fact Comm Nodes are supposed to be something like "this crap is too hard!"... And suddently reinfocements become available :].

Majority of missions in Exile are intuitive, linear and with simple goals. But this one is not. We are aware that this kind of mission may be difficult for players, so this is basicly the only tactical one we decided to include.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on December 11, 2017, 02:47:00 pm
Some advice that may help make a first playthrough of Exile a little easier:

Spoiler:
  As of right now, unlike Shadow Genesis, there is no "bonus" for getting a certain number of achievements in missions in the campaign.  So my advice would be, just play through the campaign normally the first time around without over exerting yourself trying to get every achievement...and then on the next playthrough you can for fun try to get achievements.
Title: Exile - OST
Post by: Viriatus79 on December 13, 2017, 12:33:11 pm
Once again I’d like to commend you guys on a job well done, it is one of the best mods I’ve seen so far. It is absolutely immersive: story, ship models, mission design, soundtrack. By the way, concerning the soundtrack, do you guys plan on releasing the soundtrack for us to download?

PS - Downloaded and also started playing SG 2017. Awesome job as well! 👍
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on December 13, 2017, 01:08:46 pm
Thanks for your kind words :P. No, we're not going to release soundtrack because it was almost completely composed from royality-free music of various composers + FSPort remastered music + some stuff from other games. Exile is just borrowing their stuff, and all rights belongs to original authors respectively :].
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: EmanresuDrawckab on January 09, 2018, 09:02:05 am
Have to say, this campaign managed to piss me off right at the start with extremely long, unskippable cutscenes. Which means that if you die, you have to watch them ALL OVER AGAIN.
I'd much rather have a classic briefing as an intro at this point. Because right now a good portion of my playtime is spent reading books.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: MitoPL on January 09, 2018, 02:34:53 pm
1. IIRC nearly every cutscene is skippable by the checkpoint system.
2. If some aren't skippable like that, then there's the time compression function built into FSO (by default '>' accelerates time up to x64, and '<' decelerates it back to x1 in steps). Nothing should break if you use that.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on January 10, 2018, 02:20:17 am
Have to say, this campaign managed to piss me off right at the start with extremely long, unskippable cutscenes. Which means that if you die, you have to watch them ALL OVER AGAIN.
I'd much rather have a classic briefing as an intro at this point. Because right now a good portion of my playtime is spent reading books.
Yep, use time compression for now or checkpoints. Skipping cutscenes was planned, but implementation of it is a little bit time consuming and we didn't want to delay the release anymore. Proper skipping will be probably implemented in 1.2.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: petar91 on January 11, 2018, 10:23:30 am
Hi, i'd like to thank you for this campaign, probably one of my favourite with Blue Planet. The only negative point for me was the music wich are not very epic or dramatic for the situation, it's just a personnal feeling.

With Exile, you made a new unofficial Freespace 3 in the line of Blue Planet, so wich one will be the community one ?? ;-)

Wait a lot for the next chapter !
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on January 11, 2018, 11:07:52 am
Hi, i'd like to thank you for this campaign, probably one of my favourite with Blue Planet. The only negative point for me was the music wich are not very epic or dramatic for the situation, it's just a personnal feeling.

With Exile, you made a new unofficial Freespace 3 in the line of Blue Planet, so wich one will be the community one ?? ;-)

Wait a lot for the next chapter !
Thank you! Exile is unofficial continuation of FreeSpace history the same as BP. Point of both Exile and BP is to create one of many possible scenarios of further events after Capella incident. There will never be anykind of community approved FS3 equivalent, so both Exile, BP and numerous other mods are something like alternate stories to official FS3... That will never happen :P. If you want to pick some mod as continuation you would accept as FS3, pick the one you like the most.

We wanted to avoid music like Two Steps from Hell or Audiomachine mostly because it's not FreeSpace style of music. Both FS and FS2 are based mostly on synths and different composition rules than typical "epic" music. FS music is awesome, but it's not "epic" and probably it was never intended to be. Exile is trying to mimic somekind similar to eventual FS3 style of music, but also Exile was never supposed to be fan-made FS3. It's more like new story set in the same universe, based on events from both original games.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on February 02, 2018, 06:37:47 pm
I played this right after it got released, and it was awesome! :) A lot better than SG (which was already really good on its own). :yes:

Couple of things I noticed, too...

Spoiler:
IIRC some (mostly retail Shivan) ships go out with a death flash while most others don't (due to the MVPs and to the lack of custom cfg files for flashy death scripts). This could be unitary IMO.

In Exile20, the Briefing says that most of the 180.000 people (1/6 of the population) aboard the Adrastus "remain in hypersleep, locked in cryogenic chambers". This kinda breaks the story that was built up before with people rioting, lack of supplies etc.; all they "eat" is a bit power.

In Exile21, the CB states that the system of Terminus was created by a supernova that destroyed the 6 planets in orbit 20.000 years ago. Where did they obtain that knowledge from? Mastermind? The info doesn't seem to be relevant enough to hint the existence of Mastermind to the masses.

Regarding an entry in the techroom I'd like to note that the difference between regulated (state controlled) and unregulated ("liberal") economy seems to be rather ideological than rational...
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: TechnoD11 on February 05, 2018, 07:52:22 pm
Recently finished my playthrough of Exile. It's been a while since I played a campaign and was itching for some new content, right when Exile was released :D Great Timing for me!

Enjoyed this campaign quite a bit. Music, cutscenes, and dialog (while not voiced) were all solid. Narrative was intriguing and the ships looked pretty :). Some of the missions were a little on the dry side (the subspace scanning one), but those were supplemented by plentiful action missions. Even the dryer of the missions were compensated for with the addition of dialog or other plot-advancing information.

Only technical issue I had was with the mission near the end when you and your wingmen must make several successive jumps while covering those two frigates - I'd call in a support ship in the first round, to find when I called it after the first jump that it was 60km away and would need 20 minutes to dock...besides this, no issues.

Overall, very entertaining. Thanks to the dev team (Nyctaeus and company) for this campaign, looking forward to chapter 2 :)

Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on February 05, 2018, 08:13:24 pm
Awww.... We should mention that in known issues. Just send your support to ba... to the Fleet and call a new one :P.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: woutersmits on February 08, 2018, 03:08:37 am
this error i get when im on mission 5
Error: Invalid soundtrack name.

In sexpression: ( when
   ( true )
   ( player-not-use-ai )
   ( remove-goal
      "Beta 1"
      ( ai-play-dead 101 )
   )
   ( ship-vulnerable
      "Beta 1"
      "City of the Sun"
      "Abraham"
      "Bauhaus"
      "Al-Qaum"
      "Callicantzaros"
      "Chiang-shih"
      "Abigor"
   )
   ( unlock-primary-weapon "Beta 1" )
   ( unlock-secondary-weapon "Beta 1" )
   ( unlock-afterburner "Beta 1" )
   ( reset-camera )
   ( unprotect-ship "Beta 1" )
   ( clear-goals "Beta" "Alpha" )
   ( add-goal
      "Alpha"
      ( ai-guard "Bauhaus" 85 )
   )
   ( add-goal
      "Beta"
      ( ai-guard "Beta 1" 89 )
[...]
(Error appears to be: Ex13: Haunted)
File: missionparse.cpp
Line: 5769

ntdll.dll! NtWaitForSingleObject + 20 bytes
KERNELBASE.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 159 bytes
fs2_open_3_8_1_20180127_a2f6897_x64_SSE2-FASTDBG.exe! SDL_main + 2769883 bytes
fs2_open_3_8_1_20180127_a2f6897_x64_SSE2-FASTDBG.exe! SDL_main + 3887628 bytes
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[attachment stolen by Russian hackers]
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on February 08, 2018, 03:43:13 am
Well... This is something new. Are you able to continue, or the game crashes? Anyone else encountered this? When this crap pops up?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: woutersmits on February 08, 2018, 05:34:53 am
yes i was able to continue only soundtrack errot
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on February 08, 2018, 07:06:10 am
We're closing in to 1.2 patch so we will investigate that on the occasion.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on February 08, 2018, 08:13:11 am
This is because Exile-mus.tbm has a duplicate #SoundTrackEnd at line 111(Soundtrack Ex06: Malia). There was a parsing bug in 3.8 that actually let FSO continue parsing after a double #SoundTrackEnd that was fixed in nightlies.

You need to remove one of the #SoundTrackEnds if you want the rest of the -mus.tbm to do anything at all.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on February 08, 2018, 09:16:42 am
I uploaded fix of this on Knossos called 1.0.2. I hope it works.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: woutersmits on February 09, 2018, 02:51:46 am
i cant update it keeps failing
https://1drv.ms/i/s!Anh2Q9xPqybihNEEkODreO6Kl_JTbw (https://1drv.ms/i/s!Anh2Q9xPqybihNEEkODreO6Kl_JTbw)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on February 09, 2018, 04:01:38 am
Copy your pilot files and try to reinstall whole thing.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: woutersmits on February 09, 2018, 04:36:03 am
reinstall wont downoad the whole mod
https://1drv.ms/i/s!Anh2Q9xPqybihNEEkODreO6Kl_JTbw
so its bugged knosses
https://fsnebula.org/log/5a7d7b02cb8db14cae59883e (https://fsnebula.org/log/5a7d7b02cb8db14cae59883e)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on February 09, 2018, 05:30:54 am
Or this something on my end, because I screwed up something during re-upload. I will take a look later.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CapellaGoBoom on March 10, 2018, 05:32:54 pm
This campaign was really enjoyable! Cool cutscenes and the missions were challenging enough to play. However, I also recommend a "skip cutscene" option in a future episode without having to use the time compression thing ingame. I also loved the ship design for both terran factions, especially the wing commander ships :)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 11, 2018, 03:26:14 pm
Thank you :]. We have skip cutscene option planned. Patch 1.2 will be released very soon, so it may be present in next revision.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on March 11, 2018, 03:42:41 pm
Well you could add

key-pressed "whatever"
set-time-compression "x64"
fade-out

mission time "whatever"
reset-time-compression
fade-in

or something like that :drevil:
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on March 11, 2018, 05:03:46 pm
Well you could add

key-pressed "whatever"
set-time-compression "x64"
fade-out

mission time "whatever"
reset-time-compression
fade-in

or something like that :drevil:
It's exactly what I proposed for co-leader, but his understanding is... Heh, limited at this time o___O. In fact, even current version of Exile will reset time compression when cutscene ends.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on March 14, 2018, 04:09:34 pm
It's not limited, it's simply realistic :P.

Using time compression is one way to do it, but there are several problems with this approach, for instance the message window script has a minimal time per message regardless the time compression, so when you skip a cutscene, all the messages are enqueued and displayed slowly through some time after the cutscene.

We'll think what we can do about it.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on March 14, 2018, 04:45:01 pm
Messages in cutscenes? Don't they use subtitles that can be cleaned with a SEXP?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on March 17, 2018, 06:46:27 pm
Nevermind, I figured it out. The delay was caused by message beeps. When I silenced them, the messages get passed normally and do not stack when the cutscene is over. So Exile 1.2 will have skippable cutscenes :).
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: emark4 on May 12, 2018, 02:06:23 pm
Nerdy lore question:

If the encantona is the  small cheap patrol craft that can easily be produced to maintain a functioning military, (like the Tie Fighters from star wars), why wasn't the heretic fighter able to be produced in factory ships? The frame of the heretic seems perfect for producing a single unit with less resources. Im aware  they were around before the Exodus but they couldn't just re create new units for those ships?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on May 15, 2018, 08:46:38 am
Encantona was capable of being mass-produced onboard factory ships even before Operation Moyses, but with no need for that, larger shipyards were responsible for production of fighter- and bombercraft. Main problem of factory ships was their current configuration set to produce mostly missiles, ammunition, spare parts, and plating panels for ORS' modular armor. This configuration was kept after the Exodus, because larger warships [mostly Vitalius frigates] were absolute priority for narrowly escaping Exodus Fleet. Shivan warships were always more dangerous than their smaller craft.

Production of upgraded Encantona was the only possible compromise to fill the gaps in Syndicate's fighter corps and maintain larger warships at full compat readiness all the time, as the Encantona is purely minimalistic and very customizable design. Heretic, despite being modular design, is extremely sophisticated, elite craft. With very limited resources, shivan pursuit, extremely low morale, lots of resources and utility ships lost during the Exodus, broken chain of command and overall situation, Encantona was a necessary compromise.

TLDR: Fleet was a mess, so they were producing mess.

In planned second act, resources will be replenished, all factory ships will be outfitted with new technologies and overally Exodus Fleet will be in much better fighting condition so production of more advanced craft will be fully running. As I mentioned before, main craft of Exodus fleet in The Schism will be ORSified Sabre variant compatible with Syndicate weaponry. Perhaps production of Heretic will be resumed too, but still Exodus Fleet prefer to rely on less-sophisticated and less resource consuming craft. Sabre, as formerly main fighter of EFN fulfill this assumptions.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: emark4 on May 16, 2018, 07:24:29 pm

In planned second act, resources will be replenished, all factory ships will be outfitted with new technologies and overally Exodus Fleet will be in much better fighting condition so production of more advanced craft will be fully running. As I mentioned before, main craft of Exodus fleet in The Schism will be ORSified Sabre variant compatible with Syndicate weaponry. Perhaps production of Heretic will be resumed too, but still Exodus Fleet prefer to rely on less-sophisticated and less resource consuming craft. Sabre, as formerly main fighter of EFN fulfill this assumptions.

Wow, that's quite a bit of lore to take in but thanks a bunch for the explanation! The heretic is like, the coolest ship in exile and I do hope to fly it again throughout the entire mod.

Any plans of having a bit of design changes to the Sabre for act 2? Sounds like it would be the fleets newest iconic fighter :)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: MitoPL on May 17, 2018, 04:34:57 pm
When I played through that campaign, it was awesome. Why do I feel like it's getting more and more awesome as I read the topic?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on May 21, 2018, 10:33:51 am

In planned second act, resources will be replenished, all factory ships will be outfitted with new technologies and overally Exodus Fleet will be in much better fighting condition so production of more advanced craft will be fully running. As I mentioned before, main craft of Exodus fleet in The Schism will be ORSified Sabre variant compatible with Syndicate weaponry. Perhaps production of Heretic will be resumed too, but still Exodus Fleet prefer to rely on less-sophisticated and less resource consuming craft. Sabre, as formerly main fighter of EFN fulfill this assumptions.

Wow, that's quite a bit of lore to take in but thanks a bunch for the explanation! The heretic is like, the coolest ship in exile and I do hope to fly it again throughout the entire mod.

Any plans of having a bit of design changes to the Sabre for act 2? Sounds like it would be the fleets newest iconic fighter :)
We will see :P. So far our team switched to full commercial RTS gaming project as we want to give a try to our second favorite genre. When the time come for The Schism, some ships like Galahad are likely to become more HTL and PBR. Sabre is good quality model, so it is likely to get only new texture.
When I played through that campaign, it was awesome. Why do I feel like it's getting more and more awesome as I read the topic?
I guess it's a good thing :]
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: emark4 on May 22, 2018, 02:32:23 pm
When the time come for The Schism, some ships like Galahad are likely to become more HTL and PBR.

HTL and PBR? Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on May 22, 2018, 03:36:39 pm
Since resources are an issue, I can understand why Exodus Fleet may not want to put energy into a Treb or Maxim equivalent for all fighters, but how about an energy sniper weapon like the Hypacs from Shadow Genesis?  That could be worth looking into in order for Exodus Fleet to give its fighters the ability to disarm Shivan capships.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CapellaGoBoom on May 22, 2018, 07:47:04 pm
Since resources are an issue, I can understand why Exodus Fleet may not want to put energy into a Treb or Maxim equivalent for all fighters, but how about an energy sniper weapon like the Hypacs from Shadow Genesis?  That could be worth looking into in order for Exodus Fleet to give its fighters the ability to disarm Shivan capships.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there is a sniper-style weapon in BP act2. It was on the custos cruiser in the "One Future" mission. I would love to use something like that in exile 2. But I do not believe we will see the Shivans in Andromeda at all
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on May 24, 2018, 09:55:42 am
When the time come for The Schism, some ships like Galahad are likely to become more HTL and PBR.

HTL and PBR? Care to elaborate?
We will see how much effort we can put into assets.

Since resources are an issue, I can understand why Exodus Fleet may not want to put energy into a Treb or Maxim equivalent for all fighters, but how about an energy sniper weapon like the Hypacs from Shadow Genesis?  That could be worth looking into in order for Exodus Fleet to give its fighters the ability to disarm Shivan capships.
Since resources are an issue, I can understand why Exodus Fleet may not want to put energy into a Treb or Maxim equivalent for all fighters, but how about an energy sniper weapon like the Hypacs from Shadow Genesis?  That could be worth looking into in order for Exodus Fleet to give its fighters the ability to disarm Shivan capships.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there is a sniper-style weapon in BP act2. It was on the custos cruiser in the "One Future" mission. I would love to use something like that in exile 2. But I do not believe we will see the Shivans in Andromeda at all
Exodus Fleet actually have their their own Treb equivalent [the Javelin] and multiple Maxim equivalents. Act II weapons are even present in current modpack, those are all in WiP stage and probably incomplete, badly ballanced etc. Anyway you can see them in some of actual missions, like Redeemer heavy plasma gattling cannon on turrets in Dirty Job and used by Falchion gunships in Sol Invictus. HyPAcS-like sniper rifle, the Widow is also being used by Guardian gunships in the Day of Reckoning. This one is gonna be totally redone. Amalthea cruisers use ORS' dumbfire on lower launcher and this is another weapon that will be available in The Schism.

Why all those those weapons are not available now? Short supplies, Encantona etc. Lots of weapons in fact have to be reverse-engineered based on actual remaining examples, because blueprints were lost during the exodus. Only the most of elite squadrons remaining on Exodus Fleet ships have access to this remaining equipment.

Also some of weapons are being researched during the Exodus, like Polyhydra plasma flak cannon. More and more weapons influenced by shivan tech will appear the further you are. Even fighterbeams. This one is actually already tabled.

Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on May 24, 2018, 10:29:30 am
Don't know if it's already part of the campaign, but one of the reasons I could think about is that most of the more advanced craft have been spent on the Syndicate/Federate war and now they have trouble recreating them with post disaster resources.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on May 24, 2018, 02:56:36 pm
Nyctaeus, thanks for the explanation.  I enjoy reading about the development of Exodus Fleet.


Just to make sure I understand you correctly:  when you say "fighterbeams" is that going to be a beam on fighters just for use against other fighters or would it be helpful against enemy capships too?



Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on May 25, 2018, 08:55:49 am
Don't know if it's already part of the campaign, but one of the reasons I could think about is that most of the more advanced craft have been spent on the Syndicate/Federate war and now they have trouble recreating them with post disaster resources.
More or less, correct too. Both factions were exhausted by the Rim Conflict when the Shivans arrived. Majority of remaining forces were destroyed during the Exodus, including numerous fighter corps of both factions. Note that both ORS and EFN forces were much bigger than UEF fleets for example. Syndicate produced almost 250 Vitalius-class frigattes since the Great War, and more than half of them were defending Sol system when Sathanas armada attacked.

I need to find my shiplist. I have all military warships of Exodus Fleet listed somewhere. I guess it would be helpful for players to estimate true size of Exodus Fleet.
Nyctaeus, thanks for the explanation.  I enjoy reading about the development of Exodus Fleet.


Just to make sure I understand you correctly:  when you say "fighterbeams" is that going to be a beam on fighters just for use against other fighters or would it be helpful against enemy capships too?
Think Minbari-style neuton, fighter-grade beams. It will be effective dogfighting weapon, but it shall be effective against subsystems. Mix it with Diaspora-style gliding system to slash along the hull of enemy warship.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on September 03, 2018, 03:47:36 am
Hi Exile team!

Just a quick heads up. I tried playing Exile IDW it a few day Exile IDWs ago via Knossos. It had the weird double HUD bug which I believe may be due to the new 3.8 media VPs. Any chance of a fix?

Many thanks in advance,

Kind regards,

Iain
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 23, 2018, 03:30:44 pm
I've played a few missions of this (up until the City of the Sun mission) and it's really impressive and ambitious technically, but I don't enjoy this story at all. Everything is ludicrously, preposterously, unnecessarily grimdark all the time, to the point where it's distracting, base, and ugly. The Sol forces apparently have such an unquenchable murder-boner that
Spoiler:
they won't even wait to finish taking the Rim forces into custody before commencing the mass executions
, thereby ruining their own plan by tipping off the ORS! The Shivans aren't given any of the respect as some sort of cosmic force of nature that FreeSpace has always given them, they're "bugs", "insects", objects to shoot at and nothing more. And then the City of the Sun. Hoo boy.

This is a really cool mission technically, evocative cutscene, dramatic visuals, quite good gameplay. But then:

Spoiler:
Somebody blows up something inside the City to force all the hatches open so all the civilians could get out instead of just a select number of rich "valuable to society" people. Hooray! Wait, I have to kill them? I have to MURDER thousands of my own people in cold blood to keep from "overcrowding" the Abraham? I, seeing that the people in the shuttles were probably much more like my character than the high-ranking officer giving the order, stood down, and ordered my wing to do the same. Of course, this failed the mission.

No. I will not accept this. This is not a "desperate measure" required by a "desperate time". This is a contrived situation cooked up to get the player to revel in doing something everybody knows is evil. Worse than being a bad mission, it is a reprehensible mission, one that appears beautiful on its surface but has extremely revolting themes--the only difference between this and "Dealing in Extremes" from Descendants of Sol, on a narrative and thematic level, is a layer of self-righteous rationalization. If this cowardly, selfish, criminal act is humanity's response to the Shivan incursion, it means no one in this universe has learned anything from the Great Wars. It means that humanity are no better than the Ancients were, and, frankly, if that's what it takes to preserve humanity from the Shivans, then extinction is what the people of this verse deserve.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on September 23, 2018, 03:51:07 pm
I think that it's not unlogical that the mission does not follow the narrative lines of FS1 (or what you'd conclude for that). There's been an extreme bloody civil war going on for several years, which is actually the main pre-strory of the campaign, and in the midst of said civil war a Sathanas armada disturbed the bloodshed. I think it's shown pretty clear in the dialogs between Earth/ORF pilots and in the techroom. It ultimatly resulted in the chaotic execution of the evacuation order, what caused that less lives than possible were safed.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 23, 2018, 04:23:49 pm
That's even more rationalization. They've been killing each other, and here comes more killing. It feels sadistic, in the same way 24 and other War on Terror fiction is and Warhammer 40k has become now that it takes itself seriously. HARD MEN making HARD DECISIONS and sacrificing people left and right. Why should I care about a regime that, while presenting itself as the resistance against centralized space fascism, treats its own people desperately trying to escape the Shivans as traitors and butchers them?

Baby killers: the heroes Sol needs.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 23, 2018, 04:28:37 pm
I mean, you don't have to kill them. If you have anti-subsystem weaponry you can disable them and let them run out of oxygen instead. It's probably the same fate they'd meet on an overcrowded Abraham anyway.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 23, 2018, 04:32:35 pm
So your solution is to give them a slow and lingering death instead of a sudden one? That's even worse!
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 23, 2018, 04:33:48 pm
I guess the mission could've been changed so that you don't auto-fail if you let the shuttles through. After all, the security forces on the Abraham can just throw them out the airlock on arrival and you can wash your hands of the whole ordeal.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 23, 2018, 04:36:39 pm
"Wash my hands?" I'd be more inclined to convert to the Hammer of Light and see how many ORS personnel I could frag before going down.

In fact, where are the mutinies? They're not shooting at enemies, they're shooting at the people they've been taught must be protecting from enemies. Why am I the only one who says "**** this"?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 23, 2018, 04:50:32 pm
According to the briefing the Abraham was over capacity when that mission started. By the time all the 'scheduled' ships got in it must've been critically over capacity. If the ship can't support more people it just can't. If you just let them in even more people would die from starvation or lack of oxygen.
So you either kill them quickly, kill them slowly by disabling them, or maybe let the guards kill them on arrival(unfortunately this option wasn't accounted for in the game).

Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 23, 2018, 04:54:13 pm
What about other ships? Medical ships, troop transports, passenger liners, requisition anything that can be used to hold refugees, even privately owned ships.

But you know what? It doesn't matter if I play your plot logic game or not, because it doesn't resolve the central question of why the ORS are worth rooting for when this is what they do to their own people. It's rotten on a conceptual level; the story is pushing a cruel and sadistic point of view. Trying to rationalize that won't make it go away. It won't banish the Eight Deadly Words. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EightDeadlyWords)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 23, 2018, 04:59:05 pm
I mean, none of those were there and they were gunning for a critically overcrowded ship. If they stayed inside the station it's possible another ship could've arrived to pick them up.

But it's also important to remember that at that point almost every ship that wasn't destroyed by the shivans was hiding from them and was extremely unlikely to break out of that hiding spot to come save some station-dwellers.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 23, 2018, 05:04:24 pm
More rationalizations! More things that were concocted to justify having you kill babies. The humans of Exileverse are too venal, too cowardly, too self-interested to help each other in the face of the Shivans. Why should I care if they survive? What is left that's worth fighting for? A bunch of MEHTUL BAWKSES covered in turrets but without any of the things, both material and otherwise, that make life worth living?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: mjn.mixael on September 23, 2018, 05:08:45 pm
I never played this far in Exile for similar reasons as Woolie. However, it doesn't surprise me. I got the sense that the plot was written as a series of events they wanted to take place and the characters are merely objects used to get there.

I'd be surprised if the writers considered the story's settings, event consequences, or themes presented because of those events.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while a mod of this scope is commendable, (the FREDing alone is a lot of work) the actual reason for Woolie's issues is just that they didn't really think about it.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 23, 2018, 05:10:34 pm
I mean, by the time you actually get out of the system you've got what, a million people or thereabouts? The Cbriefs give you the exact number. Assuming the entire sol system in ~2400 has a population of 100 billion that's a survival rate of 1 : 100 000 or 0.001%

Surely that would've been higher if they all abandoned helping eachother and gunned it for the node the moment the saths jumped in. Self-interest is a better survival strategy here.

AS for the acutal writing it's pretty ~meh(most characters are interchangeable) even after the patch to remove Polgrish but I never really had a problem with the City of the Sun mission. And the 4th wall breaks (lazy or retarded) are pretty unnecessary.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on September 23, 2018, 06:29:52 pm
I'm not an Exile-expert, but the story was set in 2367 (the arrival of the Saths was related to the Capella supernova IIRC). Sols population was huge - during the civil war there was a bombardment of Mars and it got over a billion people killed.

The plot is pretty good; the beginning is a bit wonky as it drops you in the middle of the action (unless you read the entire techroom before) and some of the wingmate characters feel a bit like plastic, but those of the command level are quite interesting.

The only thing I noted was that at some point there was a brief talk about cryogenics during the campaign what would leave the entire resources point mood, but it's simply logical to me that resources in this scenario are limited (and actually dropping when Shivans attack), so by "saving" people that are asking for help you probably end up having fewer lives not too long from now.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 23, 2018, 07:41:04 pm
You're not getting it. It's not about how killing shuttles full of kids and old people can be justified according to very specific rules that the authors made up. You're so wrapped up in the perspective from inside the verse that you don't even seem to acknowledge what I'm saying. What is there to fight for in Exile, beyond bare existence? What is there to believe in, besides "necessity"? What is there to look forward to, besides killing someone or something? What is the place of the people who aren't holding guns or flying ships in Exileverse? To passively stand there and accept their fates as armed thugs "sacrifice" them for a chosen few?

Without some ethical center, all you have is horrible people doing horrible things to each other and to faceless, helpless, agency-less extras. A friend of mine called this sequence "the Saw of Depression", and it fits: the sort of gratuitous, sadistic brutality of Saw filtered through a nihilistic, hopeless cynicism that excuses both the existence of such brutality ("it's just the way things are") and the authors' complicity in it ("isn't it awful we have to do this?"). Even the Shivans themselves are cheapened by this filter. They're degraded to generic doomsday villains, stripped of the ambiguity, mystery, and mythic importance they had, that was the beating heart of FreeSpace. If you rip this heart out, and don't replace it with something equivalent, then all you have is a violent spectacle to indulge, as Undertale put it, a perverted sentimentality.

Why did the team tell this story? What is the player supposed to walk away thinking, feeling, or considering at the end? Or were you only ever interested in the explosions and death?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 23, 2018, 08:09:33 pm
Exile is... not that thoughtful. It's pretty simple. If it's red... shoot it dead. Shuttles turn red, you shoot them dead. simple.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on September 23, 2018, 08:41:01 pm
Probably I can't be helped anymore, but I still like it. Yeah it's not about ethics but it tells an interesting story. In that way it's different to BP but I don't want to play BP clones.

I like the idea of Exile - you have fight only to survive, but how? I don't know how much you played of it (yet), but it adds more aspects as the story continues. Also, keep in mind that it is only the first of 4 chapters.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on September 24, 2018, 01:24:28 am
I tend to seriously enjoy stories that aren't actively contriving to achieve a specific narrative objective.  It makes it feel like a much more real and authentic experience to me.

The shivans come to kill everyone, chaos everywhere, shuttles trying to force their way into an evac ship that has no room for them, et cetera.  Lines like "take one last look, this is the last you will ever see of this system".  The campaign was far from perfect but it certainly had its moments and therefore I feel obliged to defend its merits.

I also didn't really observe a huge shift in the shivans personally, there was a lot less focus on 'shiva, why u do dis' but I think that made sense given that the humans had already seen the shivans in action.  For the common person there wasn't all that much expectation that they would find an answer, they just had to try and get away.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 24, 2018, 01:51:10 am
Ehhh, the campaign flip-flops between shivans being a serious existential threat that'll wipe out your entire race and there's **** all you can do about it and an ineffective enemy that pilots joke about. It's as if they're shivans in the 'story' but a joke in the pilot dialogue as they constantly call them bugs, insects, and have casual dick-waving contests with their killcounts.

Though that's kinda true for the entire campaign, it flip-flops between serious grimdark and parody-level fourth wall breaks.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on September 24, 2018, 02:11:28 am
Ehhh, the campaign flip-flops between shivans being a serious existential threat that'll wipe out your entire race and there's **** all you can do about it and an ineffective enemy that pilots joke about. It's as if they're shivans in the 'story' but a joke in the pilot dialogue as they constantly call them bugs, insects, and have casual dick-waving contests with their killcounts.

Though that's kinda true for the entire campaign, it flip-flops between serious grimdark and parody-level fourth wall breaks.

I admit I'm not a huge fan of the pilot dialogs; it seemed kinda F***-say-contest to me...
But calling them bugs (ain't that part of FS2 retail as well?) or insect and making fun of them doesn't seem unrealistic to me. Or would you prefer to fly with people who constantly say things like "were are all going to die if we fail this mission", "all my loved ones are dead, but we'll soon join them yay", "I don't care if I survive this mission, it won't change anything"?
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on September 25, 2018, 07:59:29 pm
You're not getting it. It's not about how killing shuttles full of kids and old people can be justified according to very specific rules that the authors made up. You're so wrapped up in the perspective from inside the verse that you don't even seem to acknowledge what I'm saying. What is there to fight for in Exile, beyond bare existence? What is there to believe in, besides "necessity"? What is there to look forward to, besides killing someone or something? What is the place of the people who aren't holding guns or flying ships in Exileverse? To passively stand there and accept their fates as armed thugs "sacrifice" them for a chosen few?

That's the point of Exile. You cannot save everyone. You can save only a small fraction of those that need to be saved and if you hesitate or make a mistake, you can also bring doom on those who can be saved. Lots of commanders had to make decisions like that during the Exodus. An inspiration for this mission was Battlestar Galactica pilot episode in which during the Cylon invasion there was a vast crowd of refugees from Caprica and only one shuttle so only a handful of them could be saved.

Quote
Without some ethical center, all you have is horrible people doing horrible things to each other and to faceless, helpless, agency-less extras. A friend of mine called this sequence "the Saw of Depression", and it fits: the sort of gratuitous, sadistic brutality of Saw filtered through a nihilistic, hopeless cynicism that excuses both the existence of such brutality ("it's just the way things are") and the authors' complicity in it ("isn't it awful we have to do this?").

I strongly suggest you play further missions, at least finish the prolog. You will have a more comprehensive view of ORS, its rules and its ethics.

Quote
Even the Shivans themselves are cheapened by this filter. They're degraded to generic doomsday villains, stripped of the ambiguity, mystery, and mythic importance they had, that was the beating heart of FreeSpace. If you rip this heart out, and don't replace it with something equivalent, then all you have is a violent spectacle to indulge, as Undertale put it, a perverted sentimentality.

I wouldn't say they're cheapened, they're simply presented from a perspective of common pilots. If would be unrealistic if everyone just referred to them as the mysterious opponents like in times of the first contact. The pilots invent all these nicknames, try to rationalize them, make them more familiar, so it's easier to confront them. It is a popular theory since the Great War that they probably have a swarm structure a bit like the zerg, so insects/bugs is a natural nickname for them.

Quote
Though that's kinda true for the entire campaign, it flip-flops between serious grimdark and parody-level fourth wall breaks.
Hey, there is only one fourth wall break :).

Apart from that, general narrative of Exile is grimdark, but with brighter moments when the situation allows it. Our intention was to show how various people try to deal with trauma of losing their homeworlds and the constant threat of the Shivans all around the Exodus Fleet. Some of them try to remain calm and seek comfort in discipline, religion, spirituality and meditation (Raji, Al-Zardari, Valkyries squadron) while the others try to forget about their fears by taking dangerous, reckless actions (Fives) or hide them behind sarcastic approach (Harper).
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: MitoPL on September 26, 2018, 12:41:15 pm
So what? In Battlestar Galactica pilots also made idiotic callsigns for others, dumb jokes even when in-flight and give cringy names for their enemies. This is one of the ways human mind copes with such danger: you either lay down and die, or you fight against the odds - whether by face them in a calm, Buddha-like approach or just... joke and laugh about it. Don't you tell me you've never had or witnessed the "Oh man, we're sooooo ****ed lol" reaction.

Besides, it's all about the "You can't save everyone" approach. This has been explored by like every single serious-ish universe (note that FS itself does it really often), but when it comes to Exile somehow it becomes bad? Is saving few hundred people right away worth the loss of hundreds of thousands aboard, not to mention the vessel itself? Because if life support got pushed too much it would probably break - and at this point really everyone would be facing death, perhaps even taking the vessel and the Fleet with it.

Oh, and if you get really humane, you don't fail the mission if you allow for up to 3 pods to enter the colony ship.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 26, 2018, 12:49:06 pm
Nah, there are multiple times when the campaign calls you retarded, lazy, or stupid for failing(or when picking a mission in that one infamous instance).

Like in the mission to investigate the Knossos portal where you get called lazy when those Maras jump in and immediately hornet the transport to death. The debriefing even states that the ORS could easily just send another transport and then insults you for being too 'lazy' to protect the first one.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 26, 2018, 01:44:15 pm
So what? In Battlestar Galactica pilots also made idiotic callsigns for others, dumb jokes even when in-flight and give cringy names for their enemies. This is one of the ways human mind copes with such danger: you either lay down and die, or you fight against the odds - whether by face them in a calm, Buddha-like approach or just... joke and laugh about it. Don't you tell me you've never had or witnessed the "Oh man, we're sooooo ****ed lol" reaction.

Besides, it's all about the "You can't save everyone" approach. This has been explored by like every single serious-ish universe (note that FS itself does it really often), but when it comes to Exile somehow it becomes bad? Is saving few hundred people right away worth the loss of hundreds of thousands aboard, not to mention the vessel itself? Because if life support got pushed too much it would probably break - and at this point really everyone would be facing death, perhaps even taking the vessel and the Fleet with it.

Oh, and if you get really humane, you don't fail the mission if you allow for up to 3 pods to enter the colony ship.

Even at its most self-indulgent, Battlestar Galactica was never half as childishly "edgy" as Exile. Exile wants to have "dark" things without taking responsibility for them, it wants you to indulge in shooting defenseless civilians without actually considering what it means to do something like that, or how it would affect others. Exile doesn't just say "you can't save anyone" but "it's not worth even putting in the effort". Even in BSG people help each other, they have friendships, they sacrifice for one another even when they have very little. When they do commit atrocities, the consequences of those actions weigh on them, others judge them. You want to have this super srs, dramatic, grimdark high-production-value super-campaign, but you don't want to take the responsibility of putting actual ideas behind it. Because of this, your campaign's ambitions come off as phony and your grimdark moments childish and contrived. If you want your moral complexity, you have to earn it. Otherwise you're just a pornographer of war.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on September 26, 2018, 02:04:56 pm
Ironicly I quited watching BSG for the reason you crtiticize Exile, because it never got me hooked for the reasons you list. The reason I don't hold it against Exile is that this here has a more appealing background story; while BSG just stopped interesting me after a while. But I'd guess comparing a multi-million $ TV production with a FS2 campaign is still a compliment if you consider this was made by just a few people compared to BSG.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 26, 2018, 04:54:36 pm
You quit watching BSG because the people there weren't cruel and dickish enough? I find what that implies about your values deeply disturbing.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on September 26, 2018, 04:59:34 pm
No, I got annoyed by people arguing for and against military dictatorship while being 2" from being killed by Cylons altogether. Also, this is a series; but instead troublesome things like a blackmarket (not that I wouldn't totally exclude the possibility there's one) popping up from nowhere instead of being built up, among several other things.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 26, 2018, 08:21:31 pm
They don't deal with nerd logic things like "how did the black market get there" because they weren't important to the story they tell. Nobody cares.

And then "arguing for and against military dictatorship when 2" from being killed by Cylons", wow there's a lot to unpack here. Soldiers are not gods. They are not kings. Only a vanishingly small proportion of them will ever become "heroes", and even then, only heroes to one side. They are not wiser, nobler, or more virtuous than anyone else. Most of the ones doing the shooting are practically still children. Many of the rest are lifers who have very little contact with, understanding of, or concern for the ideas, perspectives, feelings, and lives of society at large.

Even in the most brutal war, only a small proportion of the activity in a society is fighting. The refugees aren't going to passively lie down and accept their fate while the big manly men swing their manly weapons around and discharge them into people. They're going to carry on their lives, cook, clean, work, play, raise families, start families, get married, get divorced, party, pray, eat, sleep, ****, and all the other things humans do. They are not livestock to be corralled and culled by 21-year-old man-boy ensigns who think they're Judge Dredd, acting on a tiny sliver of "need-to-know" information. Even the admirals are acting on such expansive bird's eye views that they will have no connection to the societies they are suddenly tasked with governing, or any idea how to govern them, plus they'd be far less able to stay on top of their actual job, which is fighting the Shivans.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on September 26, 2018, 11:21:50 pm
There isn't really much room for civilian administration over fleet movements, as they generally lack the expertise to do so in any competent fashion without going through pretty considerable training and thusly becoming at least paramilitary if not fully military.  The fleet also has pretty significant logistical issues that are more than severe enough to keep their entire remaining population busy tending to them.  There isn't really that much room for a non-military government that wouldnt rapidly lead to their deaths.  This is because there aren't any meaningful decisions they could make that wouldn't reduce fleed readiness and probably cause them to be destroyed relatively soon down the road.

I personally think its kindof unlikely people would be bickering about the morals of a military government when 99% of the species just died and they are constantly being hounded by killer robots come to finish them off.  I could see riots due to horrid working conditions, but its not exactly going to be some prissy moral debate.  It would mainly just be people too enraged to continue working, no matter the consequences.

Also, I disagree with the notion that how something happened is nerd logic that is irrelevant to the plot.  Certainly if the plot is purely a character driven story and the whole sci fi universe is just decorations on top of that, but generally speaking sci-fi is not meant to be that.  The whole point is nerd logic.


e:  I also disliked a lot of the needlessly insulting the player moments.  They pretty severely took me out of the moment.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on September 27, 2018, 05:30:39 pm
Even at its most self-indulgent, Battlestar Galactica was never half as childishly "edgy" as Exile. Exile wants to have "dark" things without taking responsibility for them, it wants you to indulge in shooting defenseless civilians without actually considering what it means to do something like that, or how it would affect others. Exile doesn't just say "you can't save anyone" but "it's not worth even putting in the effort". Even in BSG people help each other, they have friendships, they sacrifice for one another even when they have very little. When they do commit atrocities, the consequences of those actions weigh on them, others judge them. You want to have this super srs, dramatic, grimdark high-production-value super-campaign, but you don't want to take the responsibility of putting actual ideas behind it. Because of this, your campaign's ambitions come off as phony and your grimdark moments childish and contrived. If you want your moral complexity, you have to earn it. Otherwise you're just a pornographer of war.

Did you even reach the dialog that takes place right after you successfully destroy the shuttles? Because you sound like you didn't and just stick to your first impression. For gameplay reasons there can't be loads of text in a moment we have to destroy the shuttles (besides, Harper cuts off all the talks), but just after the fight pilots share their doubts about what they just did.

There are lots of dialogs later in the campaign in which pilots discuss the consequences of their actions in previous missions. Obviously not every single one of them because there's simply not enough space for that between the missions, but later almost every mission has a fiction viewer and there are also longer skippable in-mission dialogs.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 27, 2018, 05:46:53 pm
There isn't really much room for civilian administration over fleet movements, as they generally lack the expertise to do so in any competent fashion without going through pretty considerable training and thusly becoming at least paramilitary if not fully military.  The fleet also has pretty significant logistical issues that are more than severe enough to keep their entire remaining population busy tending to them.  There isn't really that much room for a non-military government that wouldnt rapidly lead to their deaths.  This is because there aren't any meaningful decisions they could make that wouldn't reduce fleed readiness and probably cause them to be destroyed relatively soon down the road.

There's plenty for a civilian government to do. That's half of what the show is about. What kind of laws and punishments do you implement in a society that's basically a giant lifeboat? To what extent can the military dictate policy, given that without the Galactica the fleet would be extinct? Who gets to decide when and where they stop and settle down? How will people be compensated for their labor, or should everyone be made to work for human survival at no personal gain? Are women allowed to have abortions? How and where will children be raised, what will they be taught? How do you prevent mass suicide? Do civilian ships have any right to self-determination, and if they assert it, are there options to bring them into line short of military force (such as a representative council)? Is medical treatment reserved for military personnel first? Should remaining luxuries be given to the soldiers? Is military morale so important that they should be granted special privileges? Is forced labor justifiable, especially using prisoners? Are they slaves now? Is everyone a slave?

These are all immensely important issues to solve in the BSG situation and if they're all done by military fiat then your fleet is ****ed.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Nightmare on September 27, 2018, 06:09:56 pm
Is forced labor justifiable, especially using prisoners? Are they slaves now? Is everyone a slave?

I think it's a different thing than in a normal state where those in charge would be able to take advantage of such a situation and get away with that - if they did a mistake, they would be dead themselves.

I'd presume that the military doesn't have the "mentality" to analyze all aspects and subsequently to distribute the resources at an optimum, and prefer military criteria; just think about RL where military options were considered to solve a problem where other options were more success-promising. However, one of the reasons military leaders would prefer military solutions - to make themselves important - would fall away for the reason above.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on September 27, 2018, 10:36:47 pm
de la snip

Partly I agree with you now that you mention it.  Even if they don't have a whole lot of agency in the grand scheme of things (I dont know that they had much of a choice about settling down before they finally got the cylons to stop hounding them) there is still plenty that they can change around without actually dicking themselves over.  For instance do military personnel get special treatment as you mentioned.  Yes the absolutely critical people should get priority for good treatment so they can stay functional (important civilians included), but the vast majority of personnel on a ship could probably be injured sick and hungry and not have all that huge an impact on readiness, at least if ye olde battlestar resembles current wet navy ships (which seems to have been something they were going for in that show).  To my knowledge most of the crew on a Nimitz is pretty much just keeping things clean, keeping an eye on semi autonomous systems and making corrections or minor repairs, and otherwise doing upkeep tasks that could in all bluntness probably be done adequately well by borderline slaves.  I also agree on abortion and forms of punishment and such.

However I still don't really see how they could have a huge impact on the high level decision making aside from which randomly chosen direction to flee in, or possibly priority for defense.  From what I remember, generally speaking they didn't seem to have a whole lot of choice when it came to obliging people to dedicate most of their effort to keeping the fleet running (at least on the ammo factory ships if nothing else), nor much choice in fleeing when the cylons showed up.  I could see a lot of tasks being executed autonomously, with the choice of how much that gets micromanaged being a civilian decision.  But I don't see the admiralty really being able to survive subservience to civilian policy.  Yes you could force the fleet to halt and try to hold a position for sake of some project, or force them to try their damnedest to save an asset that is near impossible to save, but I don't hugely see the difference between the civilians getting ignored there, or them not getting what they want anyhow because what they wanted wasn't available for the taking.

I don't neccesarily see the admiralty as having all that much influence over their circumstances either since they would also mostly be subject to necessity, but I think they are by far the most qualified ones to decide how long they can stay somewhere, or whether or not to leave something behind that they aren't able to protect.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 28, 2018, 12:21:57 am
The admiralty's job is to execute policy determined by the president. If the president said 'disarm all ships and surrender to the Cylons' there'd probably be a military coup. But if the president said 'we will value passenger ships over industrial ships', or 'we will allow all ships that wish to leave the fleet to depart', or 'we will not allocate water to the garden ship, since we will rely on extracting oxygen from ice' or even 'the military will operate within this strict tylium budget, and all remaining fuel will be apportioned to civilian ships to ensure they are always able to jump', those are all vital survival decisions that do not fall inside the military's remit.

There are very important reasons the military does not set policy. When the people who decide on policy are also the people who have all the guns, they tend to become self-serving. Separation of powers also enforces a hierarchy of responsibility. And when the people whose job it is to destroy the enemy are in charge of the people, the people tend to become the enemy.

The military does not automatically make good (or even utilitarian) decisions. They are by necessity specialists in a narrow but important range of choices. They must be subservient to a civilian authority in order to isolate incentives. If the path to controlling all the guns is also the path to making all the decisions, you're ****ed. But if the path to holding all the guns involves abandoning key decisions, you have the foundation of a functioning decisionmaking system.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 28, 2018, 12:24:20 am
To get really BSG here imagine the admiral deciding 'our priority will be to establish a Tylium refinery to fuel our warships and to launch salvage and reconnaissance missions into the colonies. There is nothing to be gained by abandoning them.' That's a solid military decision, but you have to have a president to make the bigger decision of 'no, we are going to abandon the colonies, we are going to set out for deep space, and we are going to have babies.'

e: You have to have a president to order the admiral to cease SAR for a lost pilot and move on, because no matter how talented that pilot is, or how deeply entrenched the military code of 'no one gets left behind', the fleet has bigger problems. Etc etc.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on September 29, 2018, 11:03:36 am
Yeah I'll agree with that, I have no particular liking for military dictatorships, I was mainly trying to argue that there aren't all that many decisions available for the civilians to make other than keep running and keep the warships going.  As you have pointed out there is still plenty they can do, which is a good point.  However generally you would expect the military guys to have a better concept of what fights are winnable, so they would generally be the ones saying 'yeah we are out of here' rather than the civilians.  Yes they might need to be told to abandon a SAR mission, but I'd note that generally speaking thats not the job of the civilian administration so much as other parts of the fleet command structure.  Occasionally people need a bap on the head to keep them focused.  On the other-other hand, they don't really have anything resembling a full military command structure.  They have a single battlegroups worth of captain up to admiral types, which is way below what you would usually need in order to keep things organized in the long term.  You could point to cases of US admirals in ww2 going totally off the rails and running off with their battle groups, leaving their landing and supply ships behind to get murdered by the japanse.  That sort of head bapping generally has to come from outside of the battlegroup.  Indeed the show does a pretty good job of showing organization totally breaking down at the top of the fleet command structure over the course of the series.

Spoiler:
For instance when they realise that Adama's bestie is a cylon infiltrator and then he gets to keep his job.  For me that was the moment of total collapse.

e:  Having re-read this a couple times I think I am at length coming around to the idea that the civilians would actually probably need to be the ones to deliver the afore-mentioned 'stay focused' reprimands.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on October 06, 2018, 09:18:45 am
There are a huge number of decisions that civilians can make, many of which military personnel are incapable of making effectively. People still have to produce food and all the various other things the fleet and its people need. People still have to take care of their families, maintain the ships, conduct business, live out their lives. Who produces what, when, and how much? How is it distributed? What laws or codes of conduct exist? What will we eat? How will we obtain it? Where will people live? How will they adapt wherever they have to live to be more suitable as a home? These things still matter even in a BSG or Exile type situation.

You have this idea that life has "NPCs", people with no interiority who just disappear into the background when the heroes take the stage. There are no NPCs among real humans. Something like the BSG fleet isn't a military convoy, it's a mobile nation. People live there.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: MitoPL on October 06, 2018, 03:59:33 pm
I doubt any high-ranking military officer would be dumb enough to decide that indirectly destroying what remains of humanity through really dumb decisions is a definitely good way to go. I mean, how can such a person not notice that both the military and civilians are in the same mess and without proper coordination none of them will survive?
Also, when compared to BSG, situation in Exile is just far more simple, at least for people like Adm. Caine - there's no taking home back, no survivors left behind in Sol, and the only thing that counts is the Fleet.

Besides, wasn't the idea of Exile Fleet actually originating from military? I played the campaign and read the fiction ect. but that was a long time ago, pls remind me.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Macielos on October 06, 2018, 11:07:40 pm
Besides, wasn't the idea of Exile Fleet actually originating from military? I played the campaign and read the fiction ect. but that was a long time ago, pls remind me.

The main initiative came from the military, but the civilian authorities also played a major part. In fact, when Fleetmaster Tessandras alerted ORS about Sathanas armada and introduced the idea of abandoning Sol, ORS High Command refused because they believed Sol must be defended at all costs. Only Fleetmaster Caliphtys truly saw that Terran home system is lost, so he prepared the Exodus as a contingency plan and began executing it in secret. He closely cooperated in this with High Magistrate Al-Zardari, head of ORS government. When High Fleetmaster Glenzmann was killed at Europa, Caliphtys took command and redirected all remaining resources to the Exodus.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on March 26, 2019, 12:42:52 pm
I've decided to give this another go to get more FRED ideas for Legion, and I recently finished "Overwhelming", which I think is getting near the end of the campaign. The first several missions were definitely the best, with a much more coherent sense of what was at stake (mandatory war crimes aside), and "Crossing the Red Sea" was an excellent mission I'll remember for a long time.

However, I still can't relate to or care about the Exile fleet or the ORS at all. Wingmen's actions and dialogue do not flow from motivations or personality, but what sort of canned character type they are--Harper is the Reasonable Authority Figure, Fives is the Precocious Energetic Kid, the Muslim guy is The Muslim Guy and never says anything unless he can work Allah into it somehow. The terrorist mission was so absurd it has made me vow to never again put "_____ does not negotiate with terrorists" in anything I write because for once Command decided to act on that princple--and got 800 civilians killed. Woooo! Characters don't really seem affected emotionally by the Shivans and all the terrible things that have happened, not even Fives, who, mind you is supposed to be sixteen ****ing years old. He lost his entire family during the fall of Sol but apparently his thoughts of seeing a subspace tunnel as he left Sol forever with everything he has ever known in ruins is "this is cool". Seriously? Who even are these people? What do they believe in? What do they value? Am I supposed to get all that from fiction viewer sequences with the Whatevermasters I've never met and have no investment in talking at each other? The "r*tarded shipmaster" only appears to talk strangely because he's seemingly the only character in the entire campaign who isn't a prick. Instead he's got the sort of dry matter-of-fact tone you'd get in any average FreeSpace mod that makes no pretensions of being "deep".

And even the mission design started reverting, after the transfer to the Ironclad, towards the sort of repetitive, bomber spam that blemished Shadow Genesis, made worse by several missions that put you in the pilot of the truly godawful Encantona, a fighter so poor I replaced it with the Apollo and the missions became considerably easier. But I'm on break and running out of time, so I'll get to the real biggest problem with this campaign--the themes--later.

Sure looks pretty, though.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on March 26, 2019, 03:09:10 pm
Exile Critique Part the Second, or Why the Shivans are Right This Time

Exile may have flat characters and often contrived dialogue and scenarios, but to me the really infuriating thing is the things it has to say. I'm not sure how many of these themes were intentional, but it doesn't really matter because they're there, they will affect players, and too many writers ignore the implications of what they are writing. So here we go!

Authoritarianism
The movie Judgment at Nuremberg has a famous speech from the presiding justice over the Nuremberg tribunals, Judge Dan Haywood, who says this to the Nazis when they claim they committed their atrocities for the good of the German nation:

Quote
There are those in our own country too who today speak of the 'protection of country,' of 'survival'. A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult!

Exile's narrative could not be more opposed to this way of thinking if it tried. The player's interests, the interests of his or her comrades, the interests of the Exodus fleet, and the interests of humanity at large are absolutely identified with the ORS and it's "fleetmasters" (BTW, if your faction is supposed to have rebelled against Earth because an oppressive military regime, new ranks that resemble the SS's -fuhrer officer ranks aren't a good look). At no point is it suggested that the ORS high command or any member thereof might be wrong, self-serving, corrupt, or incompetent, even when they do obviously incompetent, irresponsible, or outright evil things like the case of the ORS' deliberate provocation of the terrorist hijackers (who were not even given the dignity of telling the player what they demand, which for terrorists is rather important), after they had warned FightMaster Sledge Buttscream or whatever his name is what they were going to do if approached twice, on screen. Instead the terrorist leader is a cackling demented sociopath who freely boasts of not having a conscience, because defying lawful authority is all but explicitly evil in Exileverse.

Meanwhile, the player and wingmen are afforded no agency even within the limited authority they have as pilots. Fives questions, very gently, the behavior of ORS high command for two lines before immediately being silenced. Is there a fiction viewer entry concerning his feelings and doubts? They might be more interesting than all these ThighMasters foreshadowing furiously at each other.

Ends-centered reasoning
You will never hear somebody ask if a particular action or policy is worth the risks or costs in Exile, or what is becoming of the Exodus fleet from having "keep running" and "kill Shivans" as its only motivations. To Judge Haywood's question, the ORS seems to respond "as whatever, we don't care." But isn't the role of the Shivans in the FS-verse to get rid of civilizations who fall into that trap, and protect other civilizations from being dominated, destroyed, or corrupted by them? In that case, does the Exodus fleet deserve to survive? The GTA won the Great War by letting go of militarist paranoia and violent utilitarianism and embracing an alien and formerly hostile people as friends, learning from them, and growing with them (as for the Second Great War, the GTVA lost, and most mod authors seem to forget this). The subspace trick wasn't really the important part, the fact that they had to work with, not against, the Vasudans to figure it out, was. The ORS can't even trust their Earth counterparts in the Exodus Fleet, and with the way they withhold information from the EF, if I were with them I wouldn't trust the Rim either.

Come back later for part 3, where I ramble on about the Shivans.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on March 26, 2019, 08:23:39 pm
Bug War: Exile and the Shivans

The imagery and themes surrounding the Shivans (not so much the Shivan ships or organisms themselves, that's just aesthetics) are the secret sauce that makes FreeSpace a special game, distinct from many, many other shooty shooty bang bang military space operas that came before and after, especially in the space sim genre. This style of setting and storytelling has traditionally pushed a narrative and worldview where the universe exists for the taking by humans, who must overcome various forms of Scary Dogmatic Aliens or similarly scary and dogmatic human factions to become worthy of being a true space empire of rugged space frontiersmen. Wing Commander plays this narrative 100% straight, but FreeSpace? Not so much, and I think the fact that FreeSpace not only deviates from but actively condemns such a view of space exploration (a subject I keep meaning to write an essay about), through things like the Ancient monologues, the futility and pointlessness of the Terran-Vasudan War, and all the mythological and theological imagery surrounding the Shivans, etc. Consider Capella in the light of all that religious Great Destroyer stuff. The Shivans rolled up to Capella with 80 juggernauts and hundreds if not thousands of warships, blew Capella up, let the GTVA run away and hide, and walked away victorious. For all the GTVA or Sol knows, they could have 800 or 80,000 or n+1 more juggernauts. They are seemingly timeless and limitless. If they are not divine, they might as well be. Killing them only costs them time, and they have ages beyond measure. Sure, the Sol factions might not know that, but the narrative should. But the game takes the ORS' position completely for granted to such a degree that it feels like propaganda for itself.

Because that's really what's at the heart of Exile--this propagandistic, bombastic, Independence Day/Starship Troopers (the book, since it lacks self-awareness) crassness that creeps, in sometimes quite insidious ways, into nearly every aspect of the campaign. FreeSpace's Terrans were often morally ambiguous, sometimes cruel, but Exile puts you into that sadism, and normalizes it, and makes it feel like there is no possible alternative. The Shivans aren't half as awesome and terrifying as they are in FS2 or even Inferno, they're just bugs, splatters on your canopy. The support ship urges you on to kill some Shivans with a joy that seems absurd for someone who could be killed by Shivans in an instant with no possibility of self-defense. After the genuinely scary and fun battles of the first few missions, the Shivans slowly settle into their preferred tactic in Exile: throwing wings of bombers onesie-twosie at ship formations while you order your wing to cover you while you zip from one end of the convoy to the other like a murderous ping-pong ball. They can keep this up for five, six, seven minutes at a stretch. The early missions were long--too long--but they had a lot more choreographed story setpieces and tricky warship setups instead of long stretches of bombergrind, and they had the shock annihilation of the entire Sol system as their backdrop, so they never felt like the Shivans were stupid. The presentation of the ORS as vaguely fascistic butchers and the EF as overtly fascistic butchers, who exhibit none of the wonder, fear, and curiosity seen in the original games and, from their emotions and behavior, seem only vaguely aware that Sol has been destroyed and they're running for their lives. It's almost like a big violent vacation, and Terran characters refuse to learn any lessons or draw any meaning from what is going on, because they're only here for the explosions, or they are Fives and have had their brain surgically removed and replaced with a database of cute precocious kid tropes.

The Terran-on-Terran conflicts are much the same way--the Warhammer 40k Effect where brutal, stupid, vainglorious soldiers are made into heroes by the alternative being "savages" who kill people to collect Blood for the Blood God and Skulls for the Skull Throne because they "have no conscience" and will just as soon impale you as shake your hand. The giant slaughter aboard the civilian liner is narrated by marines who mostly report how many people they're killing. However corny those radio interjections might be in Blue Planet, it's all worth it if it prevents the senseless, preventable massacre (why not pay ransom? Make political concessions to EF nationals? Release prisoners? Just take your L and go home? You don't have to do this!) of 800 people from sounding like . The EF and ORS' former war is meaningless no matter how many layers of lore you have because the characters and factions have no consciousness of history. Two interchangeable Terran armies-possessing-states with similar-looking ships, similar weapons and tactics, and a uniform culture of paranoia, patriotism, and casual brutality. It could easily be a story told by the EF and almost exactly the same things would happen except that the ratio of Earth to Rim ships would be reversed and the ranks would not be a constant source of narm in every conversation (and of course all these people are ~*motivated*~ and love to stand on ceremony so the master-bation is nearly constant).

Playing Exile, especially during the really "edgy" scenes, to be frank, gives me some seriously creepy space-fascist vibes. If it were a novel series in the actual FreeSpace universe, it would probably top Sirius', Regulus', and Polaris' bestseller lists of 2366. Endorsed by the Neo-Terran Office for the Preservation of Terran Culture for its display of firm Terran courage, duty, and martial values. In fact it's making wheels turn in my head as to how to portray Boschism in Legion, so as for research it seems like my playthrough has been successful in a different sort of way. It also reminds me of how Twist of Fate delivered a very similar feeling, with all its Zod this and Zod that and dragging a 14-year war out to 26 straight years of grinding stalemate leading to the GTD Hades showing up with 71 turrets and glassing Vasuda Prime. If I had finished it, it would have been at least as bad as this, because problems like this are not things you can overcome with better models or tighter mission balancing or more complex scripting. It's a matter of mindset, of wanting the thrill of "dark" content and massive amounts of stuff blowing up without the responsibility, watching Hard Men make Hard Decisions, which are rarely hard except for the extras whose planets get glassed, and nobody cares what they think, anyway. Besides, whether or not your mother or your wife (women in Exile are a walk-on Amazon brigade wing and queer people are a cheap joke about Laporte and Simms that smashes through the fourth wall like the Kool-Aid Man--I wish they hadn't bothered) or your peers or society approves, their voices aren't what counts. Your fleetmaster, shipmaster, wingmaster, and various other people up the chain of command are the ones who make decisions. Jailers of a million hypersleep captives, living out a meaningless charade of fighting an unbeatable enemy to as close as forever as you can get before the last ship blows. People who try to disrupt this obviously barbaric and futile despotism are evil sociopaths with scary black fighters who say "no seriously WE'RE GOING TO KILL THESE PEOPLE if you do not listen to us" and Fleetmaster says "yolo im gonna **** u up either way" and ensures that his will will become reality, no matter how many people die (but it's their fault anyway).

They should envy the dead. They should have some idea of the gravity of what they've lost and how much danger they in. They don't. They don't care. They seem like the sort of person who would make a casual joke about al-Churi not knowing if he can pray towards Mecca anymore, and al-Churi seems like the sort of empty stereotype who would be genuinely amused by that and not just holding back his disgust with polite laughter. Leaving Behind: Shivanation Force, where the faithful will be redeemed after seven years of Nahema/Nephilim pincer respawns. I think it should be seen up to "Crossing the Red Sea" for its sheer scale, spectacle, ships that give big deck guns their FreeSpace due, and missions that make good use of turret artillery and its differences vs. Shivan beams. But it's too long and taxing, even in one act, to casually ingest and impossible to take seriously as a drama. Why shouldn't the Shivans win? If there was ever a defect-strategy hegemon, it's the two regional powers and their huge death fleets, with a fascist Earth thinking it's treading its similarly fascist Rim counterpart under its victorious heel, but really only setting the stage for years of horrible civil war and genocidal atrocities. If the Ancients were guilty, these guys sure as hell are.

Against this hellish and pointless war, in a system with enough resources for two GTVAs put together, where both sides could probably go home tomorrow and still sustain themselves but one's gotta be on top, the merciful Great Destroyers offer rest. A dreamless, fearless, profound sleep where you will never again wonder when the death squads will come knocking. Just gaze into the red light and you will be released F R O M  Y O U R  M O L E C U L A R  B O N D S - -
<TRANSMISSION LOST>
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: MitoPL on March 29, 2019, 08:20:15 pm
Geez, that made me instinctually check if it isn't the PolDisc board that I have somehow tripped and fell into. It is not.

It's really nice that your posts contain constructive criticism, i.e. problems with characters, mission technicalities, plot criticism, maybe something about cliche factions. I mean, that's what these posts should contain, right? Something to let the developers know what to improve.

But that part about what did the author mean - hah, I'm not even going to try thinking it through, just because. But when it comes to themes, well... opinions are opinions, they're personal. You see a bunch of space fascists traveling with their own pack of frozen slaves, I see a fleet that managed to pack up everything and everyone they possibly could and just about avoid glassing by Shivans, a fleet that runs and fights with the goal of preserving what is remaining of humankind, fighting for the survival of our whole species (which is actually a very human reaction). You see Hard Men making Hard Decisions and not really caring, I see military commanders protecting civilians whenever they can, trying to escape the Shivans and attempting to use available resources as optimally as possible. You see too much bland higher-ups dialogue fiction and not enough personal moral essays, I see the thing that shows us that Hard Men making Hard Decisions are also human and have their weaknesses and concerns. You see a hostage situation where ORS happily acts so that 800 people die and then congratulate you for this, I see a situation where there is lots of shady stuff going on and a there's a decision between (I'm very sorry to say this) having some casualties or losing a thing that singlehandedly allows the fleet to survive at all.
People enjoying simple things while they can, "not caring" about what happened in Sol? I don't think this is out of the ordinary - the human psyche tends to detach from events of such a big weight, and that doesn't mean one can't be somehow happy about the fact he/she survived and that there are other people still around.
Also a technicality - actually it is the FTF/EFN who withhold some important info from ORS (and it was in-mission!) which could have had some really dire consequences if wasn't revealed. Oh, and then they tried to destroy some ORS frigate.
There's also one thing you might want to consider - the Navigators and a certain... outside influence - I don't think you mentioned this anywhere and it's a kind of a big thing in Exile. Besides, have you read the Intel tech entries? There are some interesting details there, too.
Besides, while your fascination with calling things in Exile "fascist" is quite... concerning, I'd want also to address one small detail. Nazis primarily fought other people over settling their domination in the world. Exile Fleet primarily fights Shivans (yes, with a quite important addition of internal conflicts) over the goddamn survival of the whole human species. This, in my opinion, is a large difference in perspectives and goals.
Also, about the "not enough personal moral essays", my stance here is simple. I think the player isn't just some kind of shooty AI that follows orders and nothing more. The player can feel the gravity of the decisions and events in the story and I think constant whining about how everything's bad and how many people are dead would only flatten the experience. It seems like many campaigns, including the original FS1 and FS2, use a similar way of this expression method to the one you can meet in Exile.

And just in case you wanted to again point out that I'm defending this creation only because it's made by "my people": chill, I may be biased, but I'm not that biased. I'm pretty sure I would take a similar stand against parts of the criticism in relation to different campaigns and authors. Also your post titles are on the fun side of clickbait, they're nice! :P
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on April 01, 2019, 07:44:18 pm
I also thought the music was pretty cool in the campaign and fit well.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: Colt on April 01, 2019, 08:57:49 pm
I also thought the music was pretty cool in the campaign and fit well.
Agreed. Was just watching Oboe Shoes Games' review of Tom Clancy's HAWX when I recognized the theme being the one that played during the Uranus mission (called Ready Aurora by Tom Salta). While I really enjoyed the campaign from start to finish, that exchange at the end of that mission was for me the most memorable part (out of many!) in Exile, especially because of the music choice.
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: CT27 on June 12, 2019, 02:56:39 pm
I believe that Exile Act 1 ended in January.

In April of that year could Caliphtys pull an April Fool's Day prank on his pilots and announce, "I know we planned to mass produce the Heretic interceptor, but instead of that we decided to bring back the Encantona for you all!"?

;)
Title: Re: Exile - Discussion
Post by: woutersmits on September 25, 2019, 03:50:09 am
ok
im still trapped on a shame mission i going to kill myzelf 5 times becouse you goys wont fix it
ingame ofcourse