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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Cobra on April 04, 2016, 05:50:19 pm

Title: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Cobra on April 04, 2016, 05:50:19 pm
http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/x56.html

(http://www.saitek.com/uk/imgs/product/x56/gallery/Pro-Flight-X-56-Rhino-for-PC-02.jpg)

Almost identical to the X-55 except for RGB lighting and an analog stick where Fire C used to be. I kinda want it, but at the same time I prefer having a button at the resting thumb position instead of a stick. I would have preferred it to be a HAT, too.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 04, 2016, 07:00:21 pm
Hugh, I wonder why some people feel all these lights are necessary, they only take money from more important things like construction quality.
Also, there is already an analog stick on the throttle, why put one on the stick as well and in that position?
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Cobra on April 04, 2016, 07:08:24 pm
Hugh, I wonder why some people feel all these lights are necessary, they only take money from more important things like construction quality.
Also, there is already an analog stick on the throttle, why put one on the stick as well and in that position?


The system was redesigned for 6DOF gameplay. If that were the case, though, they could have swapped out one of the buttons on the back of the throttle to be a maneuvering HAT instead of putting it on the stick.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 04, 2016, 08:33:31 pm
Hugh, I wonder why some people feel all these lights are necessary, they only take money from more important things like construction quality.
Also, there is already an analog stick on the throttle, why put one on the stick as well and in that position?


The system was redesigned for 6DOF gameplay. If that were the case, though, they could have swapped out one of the buttons on the back of the throttle to be a maneuvering HAT instead of putting it on the stick.
It's almost like they saw that the CH Pro Throttle selling out on amazon during Christmas because of elite players and said to themselves:
"hey, they are selling it because of the analog stick? How can we do better?"
"By adding another in a place where people either expect a simple button or a hat switch of course! And LED lights! LOTS of them!"
"Genius!"
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: -Joshua- on April 05, 2016, 12:26:49 am
Curious: Would those anolog sticks work with the strafing functionality of FS2?
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Klaustrophobia on April 05, 2016, 02:05:09 am
Well I think it looks cool at least.  At it looks like they abandoned that ridiculous immobile pressure sensing stick concept.  But yeah, I'm not thinking removing a button for an analog stick was a good move.  Hard to judge the layout from that one picture though.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Cobra on April 05, 2016, 05:46:09 am
Well I think it looks cool at least.  At it looks like they abandoned that ridiculous immobile pressure sensing stick concept.  But yeah, I'm not thinking removing a button for an analog stick was a good move.  Hard to judge the layout from that one picture though.

According to MCZRich on /r/hotas, who speaks as if he's part of the design team, says that the sticks are like the stick buttons on a gamepad.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/4cpv6m/saitek_x56_pro/
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 05, 2016, 07:58:31 am
Well I think it looks cool at least.  At it looks like they abandoned that ridiculous immobile pressure sensing stick concept.  But yeah, I'm not thinking removing a button for an analog stick was a good move.  Hard to judge the layout from that one picture though.

According to MCZRich on /r/hotas, who speaks as if he's part of the design team, says that the sticks are like the stick buttons on a gamepad.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/4cpv6m/saitek_x56_pro/

Like the clicky ministick on the CH pro Throttle then, I wonder about the precision of these ones as the CH one needs a deadzone to work properly and they usually do the best stuff they can.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: MikeRoz on April 05, 2016, 10:50:40 pm
Its placement there means that you can't maneuver on any axes bound to that stick and use any of the thumb buttons on the back of the stick at the same time. I used to bind the 4-way hat there on my CH Fighterstick to axes - no more.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 06, 2016, 09:10:37 am
Its placement there means that you can't maneuver on any axes bound to that stick and use any of the thumb buttons on the back of the stick at the same time. I used to bind the 4-way hat there on my CH Fighterstick to axes - no more.

Exactly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people would use it as an additional hat switch regardless, delegating thrusters to the one on the throttle.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Dragon on April 06, 2016, 07:24:43 pm
It looks really cool, but I think that I'd still prefer CH. The thumbstick looks rather out of place (I rarely use the hat in there on my Fighterstick, though in FS it's a good spot for shield management, at least). I have no needs for fancy lights and I use the throttle's thumbstick for 6-DOF gameplay anyway.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Mongoose on April 07, 2016, 04:51:57 pm
CH would totally get all of my money if they'd just release a stick with a twist axis.  I know it doesn't fit their full-industrial-realism business model, but I've been using twist since Microsoft got it oh-so-right 20+ years ago, and I consider it utterly indispensable.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Cobra on April 07, 2016, 05:02:55 pm
CH would totally get all of my money if they'd just release a stick with a twist axis.  I know it doesn't fit their full-industrial-realism business model, but I've been using twist since Microsoft got it oh-so-right 20+ years ago, and I consider it utterly indispensable.

Sidewinder for the win! High five!
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: MikeRoz on April 07, 2016, 05:17:42 pm
CH would totally get all of my money if they'd just release a stick with a twist axis.  I know it doesn't fit their full-industrial-realism business model, but I've been using twist since Microsoft got it oh-so-right 20+ years ago, and I consider it utterly indispensable.
I much prefer not to use twist. Axis bleed used to drive me nuts. I wish CH's pedals weren't so loud, but otherwise I can't complain and find them much more ergonomic.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Trivial Psychic on April 07, 2016, 05:28:26 pm
I'll never use a non-twist stick again.  BTW, when my X52 was working, I used to use the finger hat on the throttle for shield management.  When I played TBP, I used it for lateral and vertical thruster control.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Cobra on April 07, 2016, 06:14:47 pm
I'll never use a non-twist stick again.  BTW, when my X52 was working, I used to use the finger hat on the throttle for shield management.  When I played TBP, I used it for lateral and vertical thruster control.

I use mine for tapping the accelerate and decelerate buttons. the POV2 HAT is what I use for shields. Though in Diaspora it's mapped more like you would a military flight stick and the HATs have actual functions.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 07, 2016, 07:40:53 pm
I never used a twist-stick in my life, until now the only spacesim that would benefit from it is Elite: Dangerous (at least form the ones I've tried) because yaw behaves more like in a real aircraft in that game and even then I managed in the combat demo by assigning yaw to two of the buttons in front of the throttle, and before buying CH the last joystick I bought was from a time when cheap 4-buttons ones rarely had twist.

Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Cobra on April 07, 2016, 07:55:28 pm
You've obviously never played the old Mechwarrior games, then. :P Twist sticks are a must in games like those.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Mongoose on April 07, 2016, 07:59:31 pm
Also Descent, and I'd certainly never play FS without one.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Klaustrophobia on April 08, 2016, 02:01:53 am
I do miss the twist of my old Cyborg to the rudder rocker of the x45.  It's acceptable though.  I do not consider requiring pedals as an additional device in order to obtain the Rx (or is it Ry? whatever.) axis acceptable.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 08, 2016, 06:45:01 am
You've obviously never played the old Mechwarrior games, then. :P Twist sticks are a must in games like those.
Mech games aren't my cup of tea, I tried a few demos at the time and didn't like any of them.
Also Descent, and I'd certainly never play FS without one.
Never felt the need in Descent, I either played keyboard only or recently (before buying the throttle) WASD + joystick (with up/down thrusters assigned to a hat), but I still have to try it with the full HOTAS.
Is FS Freespace or Flight Simulator?
With Freespace I never really felt the need for twist, and if it was Flight Simulator, well, I never managed to get into real aricraft simulators.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Dragon on April 08, 2016, 02:48:15 pm
You've obviously never played the old Mechwarrior games, then. :P Twist sticks are a must in games like those.
Actually, I played MW games and I have to say twist axis isn't needed if you've got pedals. :) It was actually quite wonderful, a real walker will either have powered armor-like controls or be steered like this. Pedals for turning the legs, stick for controlling the body and throttle for speed. Aside from MW2 with its boneheaded "body directly slaved to the stick" scheme, it always worked brilliantly.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Mongoose on April 08, 2016, 10:55:08 pm
Never felt the need in Descent, I either played keyboard only or recently (before buying the throttle) WASD + joystick (with up/down thrusters assigned to a hat), but I still have to try it with the full HOTAS.
Is FS Freespace or Flight Simulator?
With Freespace I never really felt the need for twist, and if it was Flight Simulator, well, I never managed to get into real aricraft simulators.

The issue for me is that if you're using a joystick but relying on keys/buttons for roll, you have two axes of rotation with full-on continuous control, but the third with an on/off binary, and that sort of discontinuity just doesn't work for me.  I need the same sort of fine control across all three axes, particularly in a frenetic multiplayer game like Descent.  Hell, I'd forgo the keyboard completely and go joystick-only, and indeed I did for many years, except my ancient 3D Pro's throttle slider kind of sticks at both ends and isn't as precise as I need it to be in the first place.  Never did get how anyone managed with a keyboard-only config, even if some of the best multi pilots in the history of the game made it work.

And yes, I mean FreeSpace, and the reasons remain much the same as for Descent.  Obviously both of these games are somewhat flipped from a normal flight simulator in that yaw is far more important than roll, but I still want that full-on analog control for the latter, and I'd sure as hell never want to delegate it to a pair of pedals.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Cobra on April 08, 2016, 11:22:13 pm
Yeah, I can't see myself using pedals. After 17 years of joystick twist, there's no way I could go for them now. :P

You definitely need something to roll with in FreeSpace, though. Using X and Y constantly to correct sounds like excessive work.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 09, 2016, 05:05:52 am
Never felt the need in Descent, I either played keyboard only or recently (before buying the throttle) WASD + joystick (with up/down thrusters assigned to a hat), but I still have to try it with the full HOTAS.
Is FS Freespace or Flight Simulator?
With Freespace I never really felt the need for twist, and if it was Flight Simulator, well, I never managed to get into real aricraft simulators.

The issue for me is that if you're using a joystick but relying on keys/buttons for roll, you have two axes of rotation with full-on continuous control, but the third with an on/off binary, and that sort of discontinuity just doesn't work for me.  I need the same sort of fine control across all three axes, particularly in a frenetic multiplayer game like Descent.  Hell, I'd forgo the keyboard completely and go joystick-only, and indeed I did for many years, except my ancient 3D Pro's throttle slider kind of sticks at both ends and isn't as precise as I need it to be in the first place.  Never did get how anyone managed with a keyboard-only config, even if some of the best multi pilots in the history of the game made it work.

And yes, I mean FreeSpace, and the reasons remain much the same as for Descent.  Obviously both of these games are somewhat flipped from a normal flight simulator in that yaw is far more important than roll, but I still want that full-on analog control for the latter, and I'd sure as hell never want to delegate it to a pair of pedals.
Descent acts a lot like a FPS, the only thing that makes a joystick or keyboard more viable than a mouse for aiming is its 6DOF nature, and being at its core a FPS fine control isn't really that necessary as much as reactiveness, I've been trying using the analog axes with a HOTAS (via a source port that supports analog axes for throttle, thrusters, etc) and thrusters work better with digital inputs in that game because when you need them you need to be as fast as possible rather than precise.

I never used roll during combat in Freespace, it's just a waste of time, even more than in X-wing as the gun racks are usually closer toghether with few exceptions.

Sincerely playing FS joystick-only is inconceivable to me, most joysticks have too few buttons for a spacesim (too many essential functions), the only games I ever played joystick only are the two Rebel Assault games (which are essentially rail shooters) and Rogue Squadron 3D (which was made with a N64 controller in mind and then ported to PC).

And no, I've never used pedals as roll in essentially all the games I'm interested in is not really necessary. Call me a dinosaur but I grew up in an era when sticks with twist were rare, pedals were for rich people and the most complex sims (and even most of them didn't support analog yaw, I've never known anyone to have pedals at the time), and everyone was used to the classic "hold button 2 to roll" or used the keyboard (on which you had to keep a hand anyway because even an 18-button Combatstick has too few buttons for a game like X-wing ad at the time 4-button sticks were the norm), the twist rudder became really common only after Freespace 2 came out.

Yeah, I can't see myself using pedals. After 17 years of joystick twist, there's no way I could go for them now. :P

You definitely need something to roll with in FreeSpace, though. Using X and Y constantly to correct sounds like excessive work.

Hhhm, I always wonder why people find rolling that necessary on a spacesim that isn't Elite: Dangerous, keyboard rolling is perfectly fine in FS at least for the few times I bother using it.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: deathspeed on April 09, 2016, 09:17:28 am
I love the blue accents on the X-56.  My mind boggles at thinking of using all those buttons, switches, and thumbsticks, but I'm sure I could get used to them. 

All I have ever used are Sidewinders - first a gameport Force Feedback Pro, and then the Force Feedback 2 that I still use.  Although I don't use the twist to roll much in FreeSpace, I use it to yaw for fine alignment in flight games such as Crimson Skies and H.A.W.X. 2.  And of course it was indispensable in MechWarrior 3.  When it comes time to replace the FF2, I will definitely be looking for a replacement with twist, but i could live without it.  I don't see a HOTAS and pedal setup in my future, even if i won the lottery.  They are just a little overboard for as little as I would use them.  Maybe if I had a dedicated PC gaming area I could consider it, but my gaming rig is also the family PC.

What i would really like to see is a resurgence of force feedback.  For me, it adds so much to the immersion in the game.  I feel like I really am taking Shivan fire on my right flank or stomping around in a giant robot or opening up on a zeppelin with .70 cannons.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 23, 2016, 09:43:53 am
Yeah, I can't see myself using pedals. After 17 years of joystick twist, there's no way I could go for them now. :P

You definitely need something to roll with in FreeSpace, though. Using X and Y constantly to correct sounds like excessive work.

Just FYI, I've been playing a lot of wing commander saga lately with roll mapped to the analog thumbstick on the throttle, it works really well and it's a good alternative for games that don't require the analog stick for something else, I just had to map the orizontal axis as a fourth axis and disable all the others because even without twist or pedals the CH HOTAS has effectively 4stick axles a throttle slider axle and a throttle wheel on the base of the main stick, and Wing Commander Saga supports only four.
It also freed two of the three front buttons on the throttle to use for left shift and left alt thus allowing to map everything but the comms, which I assigned to the secondary modes.
I get now what you mean with having an analog roll axis, I still think it's not strictly necessary but it sure feels cool being able to roll and turn at the same moment.

A pity X-wing vs Tie Fighter supports only two axes and the throttle, in the end after experimenting by mapping the ministick as a mouse for mission select I decided to use it as additional hat for the status displays, when I'll have the time I should reinstall X-wing Alliance and see if it has better support for additional axes.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Klaustrophobia on April 25, 2016, 03:28:22 am
I never used roll during combat in Freespace, it's just a waste of time, even more than in X-wing as the gun racks are usually closer toghether with few exceptions.

Not true.  You can increase your turn rate substantially by combining pitch, roll, and yaw vs. just yaw.  And you already touched on the fact that some fighters can benefit from rolling for better gun alignment.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 25, 2016, 07:04:27 am
I never used roll during combat in Freespace, it's just a waste of time, even more than in X-wing as the gun racks are usually closer toghether with few exceptions.

Not true.  You can increase your turn rate substantially by combining pitch, roll, and yaw vs. just yaw.  And you already touched on the fact that some fighters can benefit from rolling for better gun alignment.
Technically speaking in Freespace there is no "yaw", your ship already does a yaw into roll movement, the roll axis isn't necessary for normal gameplay.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Klaustrophobia on April 25, 2016, 11:26:06 pm
whatever you want to call it, turning with all three axes is faster than with one.  when you do it right, i.e. have the perfect balance of inputs to all 3 axes, you cover the exact same turning arc (albeit in a rolling fighter) in a shorter space of time.  it's the rotational equivalent of tri-chording (i think that's what it's called) in 6DOF games.  turn at the right angle and use all 3 axes and you move faster than if you just pointed straight ahead and used forward thrust.  or side running in FPSes.
Title: Re: Saitek X-56 Rhino Announced
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 26, 2016, 03:39:08 am
whatever you want to call it, turning with all three axes is faster than with one.  when you do it right, i.e. have the perfect balance of inputs to all 3 axes, you cover the exact same turning arc (albeit in a rolling fighter) in a shorter space of time.  it's the rotational equivalent of tri-chording (i think that's what it's called) in 6DOF games.  turn at the right angle and use all 3 axes and you move faster than if you just pointed straight ahead and used forward thrust.  or side running in FPSes.

The only space game built around it I've had the chance to try is the Elite: Dangerous combat demo, it's not like at the time Freespace 2 came out the typical cheap joystick most people possessed had a twist rudder and they had to make the game playable for these people (raises hand) as well, in the x-wing games you couldn't even roll and yaw at the same time until Alliance and Wing Commander games required the use of the keyboard to do so.