Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Kobrar44 on June 22, 2017, 11:59:29 am

Title: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Kobrar44 on June 22, 2017, 11:59:29 am
So Homeworld: Cataclysm has released on GOG (https://www.gog.com/promo/20170622_launch_promo_homeworld) as Homeworld: Emergence, along with Deserts of Kharak. A number of people hoped for it, so I'm letting you guys know.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is it? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Novachen on June 22, 2017, 12:07:03 pm
Yeah, Cataclysm. IMO by far the best Homeworld game.

And maybe the creepiest story i have ever played in a RTS, too.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Ace on June 22, 2017, 06:49:03 pm
Did they change the name to avoid paying royalties to Kerberos?
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: The E on June 22, 2017, 06:54:16 pm
Blizzard, actually. (Blizzard has a trademark on Cataclysm)
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Mongoose on June 22, 2017, 07:28:21 pm
I have no idea how a trademark can retroactively apply to a decade-plus earlier game from a completely-different genre, but chalk it up to the absurd vagaries of copyright/trademark law I guess.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: MikeRoz on June 22, 2017, 09:12:06 pm
So happy this was released. This was, by happenstance more than anything else, the only Homeworld game I have pleasant multiplayer memories from. Instabuy for me.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 23, 2017, 12:31:10 am
Cut us looooooose
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: 0rph3u5 on June 23, 2017, 12:41:44 am
I have no idea how a trademark can retroactively apply to a decade-plus earlier game from a completely-different genre, but chalk it up to the absurd vagaries of copyright/trademark law I guess.

There is nothing retroactive about it; Gearbox would probably been fine under sensible copyright legislation. However US copyright requires the rights holder to actively defend their claim, unless they want to loose it.
The name change avoids that issue and the paying the fees for the legal process.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is it? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Aesaar on June 23, 2017, 07:47:53 am
Yeah, Cataclysm. IMO by far the best Homeworld game.
Except that it's barely a Homeworld game.  It's like the opposite of a spiritual successor.  Completely different feel compared to the other two.  And now with HW2 remastered being a thing, it's also the one with the worst gameplay.

It's a Homeworld game the same way C&C Generals is a C&C game.

And all the original ship designs in it look like garbage.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: 0rph3u5 on June 23, 2017, 09:31:15 am
Except that it's barely a Homeworld game.  It's like the opposite of a spiritual successor.  Completely different feel compared to the other two.

Are you sure you are not describing Homeworld 2? (That's not to say that Homeworld 2 didn't make a host of improvements; but take the names Homeworld off it and the words Hiigaaran and Bentusi out of it and you couldn't tell it was a sequel to Homeworld)

Granted Cataclysm/Emergence had a tonal shift, but that is not uncommon for sequels. The gameplay was not sigificantly altered (unbalanced faction abilites not withstanding) but some nice convience features (like that you now could see distinguish between explored and unexplored parts of the area).

And much like the original Homeworld, it had a focused, consistent narrative with little Deux Ex Machina - those are three things I cannot say about Homeworld 2.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Novachen on June 23, 2017, 10:11:18 am
The only Homeworld game i know about that is not a Homeworld game is the last one, called Deserts of Kharak.

For me Cataclysm was always a full Homeworld game, only with a different, but IMO better story.

Also it introduced some gameplay mechanics that were taken over to Homeworld 2... but Homeworld 2 story was... boring at least.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Hades on June 23, 2017, 10:59:52 am
Deserts of Kharak is good, they really nailed the atmosphere. Cataclysm has the best and most fun mission design out of the 3 space Homeworld games, IMO, as well as good voice acting and an interesting story, even if it's not very Homeworld 1-ish.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: 0rph3u5 on June 23, 2017, 11:29:36 am
The only Homeworld game i know about that is not a Homeworld game is the last one, called Deserts of Kharak.

I am curious, what makes you say that beyond the shift to planetary maps (incl. reducing the dimensions to 2.5)?
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Aesaar on June 23, 2017, 11:43:55 pm
Except that it's barely a Homeworld game.  It's like the opposite of a spiritual successor.  Completely different feel compared to the other two.

Are you sure you are not describing Homeworld 2? (That's not to say that Homeworld 2 didn't make a host of improvements; but take the names Homeworld off it and the words Hiigaaran and Bentusi out of it and you couldn't tell it was a sequel to Homeworld)

Granted Cataclysm/Emergence had a tonal shift, but that is not uncommon for sequels. The gameplay was not sigificantly altered (unbalanced faction abilites not withstanding) but some nice convience features (like that you now could see distinguish between explored and unexplored parts of the area).

And much like the original Homeworld, it had a focused, consistent narrative with little Deux Ex Machina - those are three things I cannot say about Homeworld 2.
And if you changed the names in Cataclysm, it would have zero non-gameplay relation to HW1.  HW1 and HW2 have a very consistent art style that Cataclysm does not share.  HW2's story may have been a wreck, but there's still interesting **** in there, whereas Cataclysm feels like they ran out of interesting ideas once they finished writing the manual.

It's an uninspired game executed well, and HW2 is a poorly executed story littered with missed opportunities.  It was rushed and it feels like it.  Subjective, but I like HW2 a lot more because it built on my favorite bits of HW1's visual storytelling, like the Karos Graveyard.  Space zombies (in the form of ships with strawberry jam spilled on them), on the other hand, is not something I find interesting.

Hades: I wouldn't call Cataclysm's voice acting good.  Fleet Command's VA is good, sure, but in a lot of cases, I actively avoided using units because their VA was so bad (hi multibeam frigates!).  In most cases, it was just super hammy.

And I'm just going to restate how godawful 95% of Cataclysm's original ship designs were.  Also the laziest corvette designs ever.

The only Homeworld game i know about that is not a Homeworld game is the last one, called Deserts of Kharak.
Deserts of Kharak is 150% a Homeworld game and it's ****ing awesome.  They absolutely nailed the art and narrative style.  I'll be very disappointed if Blackbird don't have a hand in making HW3.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: 0rph3u5 on June 24, 2017, 01:39:52 am
HW1 and HW2 have a very consistent art style that Cataclysm does not share.

Please elaborate.

HW1's visual storytelling, like the Karos Graveyard. 

Please elaborate.

Also the laziest corvette designs ever.

While I agree with notion that the design were un-inspired, I would not say their were lazy (and the superlative if out place, too) - they would have been lazy if the combination had no tangible impact, which in case of both Somtaaw corvettes it had (the Acolyte-Corvette exchanged the limited munition ability of the fighters for a reusable EMP ability, the holo-corvette could immitate a larger ship or an asteroid).
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: The E on June 24, 2017, 04:02:26 am
HW1's visual storytelling, like the Karos Graveyard. 

Please elaborate.

Both HW1 and HW2 are taking place in a space populated by Tsutomu Nihei-esque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Nihei) hyperstructures; Infinitely vast relics of a bygone civilization. The Karos Graveyard, the Tanis relic, places like these show us that this story is taking place in a universe that has been lived in for eons. They are clear reminders that, no matter how momentous the things we're doing in the game are to us and the characters we're following, much bigger and grander things have happened here in the past. Homeworld 1 and 2, taken together, are the story of a civilization clawing back its way towards apotheosis, climbing up the giant's back until we are standing on their shoulders once more.

Cataclysm, from what I've seen (and I should point out that I've never personally played it) drops this thematic stuff for a much more down-to-earth story. No matter how well told it is, it's still a thematic departure.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: 0rph3u5 on June 24, 2017, 04:34:18 am
HW1's visual storytelling, like the Karos Graveyard. 

Please elaborate.

Both HW1 and HW2 are taking place in a space populated by Tsutomu Nihei-esque (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Nihei) hyperstructures; Infinitely vast relics of a bygone civilization. The Karos Graveyard, the Tanis relic, places like these show us that this story is taking place in a universe that has been lived in for eons. They are clear reminders that, no matter how momentous the things we're doing in the game are to us and the characters we're following, much bigger and grander things have happened here in the past. Homeworld 1 and 2, taken together, are the story of a civilization clawing back its way towards apotheosis, climbing up the giant's back until we are standing on their shoulders once more.

Cataclysm, from what I've seen (and I should point out that I've never personally played it) drops this thematic stuff for a much more down-to-earth story. No matter how well told it is, it's still a thematic departure.

Okay, I get that. When I think of the Karos Graveyard I always default to the "early in development" Kushan-models that make up a significant portion of the junk.

Cataclysm does have that element but not quite to that scale (e.g. the junkyard you find the Siege Cannon in), and yes thematically it is more about the current generation and their struggles rather than an "Old World" (although the Naggarok, the final boss ship in the story, is both ancient and extragalactic).

But again, a thematic departure isn't necessarily bad - especially when it comes to material like Homeworld.


EDIT:

However I would like to dispute the HW 1 and 2 form a whole like you described, especially when you look at whose agency drives either plot.

In Homeworld 1 the Hiigarans-to-be achieve almost everything they do and drive almost all development by through their own actions and achievements. Barring the discovery of the Hyperspace Core and the exposition dumbs from the Kadeshi and the Bentusi, everything that happens is connected to the journey the Mothership & Co undertake.

Homeworld 2 however the Hiigaran go from McGuffin to McGuffin which then starts the next segment of the plot, making them less the agents in the story but giving that role to Maakan whose steps they don't even retrace but skip to at will. That Maakan is actually the agent of the plot is not a problem, it would actually work if we knew more about him than "he thinks of himself as a god"; I continue to refer to Homeworld 2 as a chase (compared to the journey that is Homeworld 1), however it is chase in which you know too little about the quarry in the end for the chase to have mattered at all. (And that's not talking about the mismatch between the first two missions and anything but the last one regarding stakes and urgency)
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 24, 2017, 05:42:36 am
HW2's plot is almost entirely dumb but thematically it's an earnest attempt to build on HW1, whereas Cataclysm just meanders off and competently executes a sci-fi zombie plot using objects from the HW1 manual. DoK manages to have both a good and thematically coherent plot; it's a very encouraging rehabilitation of the series.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: The E on June 24, 2017, 06:06:43 am
However I would like to dispute the HW 1 and 2 form a whole like you described, especially when you look at whose agency drives either plot.

In Homeworld 1 the Hiigarans-to-be achieve almost everything they do and drive almost all development by through their own actions and achievements. Barring the discovery of the Hyperspace Core and the exposition dumbs from the Kadeshi and the Bentusi, everything that happens is connected to the journey the Mothership & Co undertake.

Homeworld 2 however the Hiigaran go from McGuffin to McGuffin which then starts the next segment of the plot, making them less the agents in the story but giving that role to Maakan whose steps they don't even retrace but skip to at will. That Maakan is actually the agent of the plot is not a problem, it would actually work if we knew more about him than "he thinks of himself as a god"; I continue to refer to Homeworld 2 as a chase (compared to the journey that is Homeworld 1), however it is chase in which you know too little about the quarry in the end for the chase to have mattered at all. (And that's not talking about the mismatch between the first two missions and anything but the last one regarding stakes and urgency)

That's.... not what I was getting at? IMHO, there is a clear thematic throughline that connects DoK, HW1 and HW2. In Deserts, we the protagonists are unwitting prisoners freeing ourselves from the equally unwitting prison guards. In HW1, the actual prison guards show up and enact their retribution; however, since a small portion of our prisoners do manage to escape, they fail and are brought down. Along the way, we learn that the galaxy we're living in is older and more developed than we ever dreamed it would be: The path back home is littered with the remnants of civilizations vastly more powerful than even the people we are fighting against in this very moment.
In HW2, we are forced to enter into a race against an usurper who aspires to the godhood we were unaware was within our grasp. We snatch godhood from him, and in doing so, free our people and the galaxy at large from a downward spiral it wasn't even really aware it was in, we become a truly intergalactic civilization once more, in full command of the relics our progenitors left behind.

All your criticisms regarding HW2's storytelling are true. That that game told its story poorly doesn't change the fact that these are stories that do build upon each other and that share clear themes, however.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: 0rph3u5 on June 24, 2017, 07:16:52 am
we are forced to enter into a race against an usurper who aspires to the godhood we were unaware was within our grasp.
[...]
 we become a truly intergalactic civilization once more, in full command of the relics our progenitors left behind.
emphasis mine

This is where our interpretation fundamentally differ. You interped the events of Homeworld 2 - esspecially the chase after Maakan - as a test and frame the acquisition of Sajuuk and the Core Trinity as something that was meant to be.

I disagree with that reading. And here is why:

For reference:

Exhibit A: The Hyperspace Cores

1. "In the first time, the Great Hyperspace Core was found..."

2. "... the Second Core was discovered on a desert planet..."

3. "This is the story of the End Times. We know this because Third Core has been found."

The Hyperspace Cores were found. They were not gifts or heirlooms handed down from the Progenitors to worthy successors, younger species happened upon them and used them.

There is only a single indication that some kind of line of tradition for the Hyperspace Cores was ever intended and that during the mission after you have acquired the Oracle and it leads you to the first Progenitor wreckage. This then however immideatly contradicted in the post mission cutscene...


... which describes the behavior of the Oracle akin to failsafe.


Exhibit B: The Progenitors are unrelated to the current species


(I assume it speaks for itself) Okay it doesn't.
This is the definite feature of the Progenitor other than that their technology survived them. There is no mention of any futher connection the galaxy other that they arrived and stayed until their civilisation came to an end. There is no mention of them contacting any species now in existence directly.

While the Prophecy exists (see below), there is no mention that it was inspired by the acutal Progentiors. It might as well have been created through contact with what was left behind by them (which would also explain why the Oracle -implied to be part of the Progentior ship's bridge system- is so far away from it).


Exhibit C: Sajuuk and the Prophecy

All knowledge about Sajuuk before finding the actual ship, is presented in the from of prophecy and open to interpretation. The following bit is esspecially interesting:


Now the dictionary definition of "to unleash" is "to suddenly let a strong force, emotion, etc be felt or have effect", considering what is revealed in the Epilogue is the purpose of Sajuuk (to open the intergalactic hypersacpe gates) that is clearly a powerful, positive force taking effect.

However, you also leash out of control animals and considering we have no information on how the Progentior civilisation ended (the Progentior ship is said to have broken apart but there is no cause given), it might be that closing down the intergalactic gates and hiding away the key to it, may have been preventive measure.

As this is information handed down through ages and languages, it is notoriously unreliable and doesn't give credibility to either reading.


Exhibit D: The Chosen One

There is of course the matter of "the Chosen One":

But it is never quite clear, if this means something positive or negative. Actually the Epilogue goes so far, in my reading, to suggest that what the Chosen One might not have a set purpose but instead who the Chosen One would be would determine their effect. This is cooberated by the emphasis on Maakan's "shadow" in the intro":

Due to unclear line of tradition of the prophecy it is also not beyond imagining that this part was added or distorted.



Exhibits A and B combined make clear that by definition Maakan cannot be an usurper as there is no rightful claim to any of the three Cores. They, Sajuuk and the hyperspace gates are not an inheritance passed down but remains (i.e. objects that survived the span of time but originally not meant to - as opposed to tradition) that both Maakan and the Hiigaran freely use.

While said use eventually has a positive impact, there is no indication whetever or not it was intented; acutally the Intro and the Epilogue contradict that reading by highlighting that it is the person that fills the role of Chosen One determines the kind of impact the Trinity has.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: The E on June 24, 2017, 07:34:53 am
This is where our interpretation fundamentally differ. You interped the events of Homeworld 2 - esspecially the chase after Maakan - as a test and frame the acquisition of Sajuuk and the Core Trinity as something that was meant to be.

I ... don't?

The race for Sajuuk isn't a test imposed on the Hiigarans and Vaygr from the outside; None of the parties involved know at the outset just what Sajuuk actually is, what they do know is that whoever controls it regains at least a measure of the power the people who left us all those megastructures wielded.

Quote
I disagree with that reading. And here is why:

Quote
The Hyperspace Cores were found. They were not gifts or heirlooms handed down from the Progenitors to worthy successors, younger species happened upon them and used them.

There is only a single indication that some kind of line of tradition for the Hyperspace Cores was ever intended and that during the mission after you have acquired the Oracle and it leads you to the first Progenitor wreckage. This then however immideatly contradicted in the post mission cutscene...

I never claimed or intended to claim that such a line of tradition exists. All I was talking about was that there is a clear thematic connection between DoK, HW1 and HW2 that Cataclysm doesn't really follow, for crying out loud.

Quote
Exhibits A and B combined make clear that by definition Maakan cannot be an usurper as there is no rightful claim to any of the three Cores. They, Sajuuk and the hyperspace gates are not an inheritance passed down but remains (i.e. objects that survived the span of time but originally not meant to - as opposed to tradition) that both Maakan and the Hiigaran freely use.

Yes, if you want to be this pedantic about it, then I apologize for using the word "usurper". However, I don't really know what sort of other term to use for him.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Col. Fishguts on June 24, 2017, 07:37:35 am
stuff

You put more thinking effort into this post than the writers of HW2 did into the entire story line (at least the one of the released game, not counting the Dust Wars draft).
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: 0rph3u5 on June 24, 2017, 07:42:05 am
@The E:
I am going of your post verabtim... Look at what I highlighted in my quote.

stuff

You put more thinking effort into this post than the writers of HW2 did into the entire story line (at least the one of the released game, not counting the Dust Wars draft).

That's because I cherish Homeworld 2 as object lesson regarding story telling - esspecially on the background that I once wrote a Hammer of Light-campaign that would delve into an "Old World" for the Freespace-universe.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: The E on June 24, 2017, 08:40:01 am
Oh for ****'s sake.

1. Yes, usurper was the wrong word. I apologize profusely for ever using it in a way that caused unintended interpretations to occur.
2. "Progenitors" is the term used consistently in the games for the people who built these megastructures, and I used it to refer the same group. I may have made the mistake of using "our progenitors" instead of "the Progenitors", but seriously? For you to construct an elaborate debunkment of my starting statement (which, I must note, you haven't actually done: I am talking about theme, you are talking about story, you must be aware that those are different things), that's a very weak and very pedantic starting point.

To get back on track without such linguistic nitpicking, here's my starting point:
DoK, HW1 and HW2, taken together, are the story of a civilization clawing back its way towards apotheosis, climbing up the giant's back until we are standing on their shoulders once more. Every single game makes it very clear that, compared to the Progenitors, what we do and achieve is insignificant compared to their achievements; When Sajuuk is reclaimed at the end of HW2, the people we've been playing as finally manage to surpass their original starting position, thus achieving (within the context of this game's lore) apotheosis.

The theme shared by all of those three games is one of gaining further understanding of the protagonists' place in the universe and the history of said universe, and through that understanding becoming ever more god-like (Or more like the Progenitors, if you prefer that term). Cataclysm, with all its down-to-earth, common laborers against the borg stylings doesn't share that theme, or at least, doesn't emphasize it as much as the other games did.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: 0rph3u5 on June 24, 2017, 12:13:17 pm
Uhm ... You treat me as if called you names but all I did was to say that I would like (or do) disagree with your reading of themes involved. I did not say that you were "wrong", I merely pointed out the flaws in the case you brought.

I may have been flippant in my last statement, and for that I'd like to apologize.

As for nitpicking/pedantry: Is it from time to point out that in order for the grammar to make sense it has to be "giants' backs" or "its shoulders" in the first sentence of your thesis :D



As for "themes vs story":

Themes do have to expressed in the text/transcript. While the most expressed theme might not be the dominant one (e.g. when you highlight something through absence) you at least are able to present evidence of it.



As refuting/debunking your thesis:

I never said I wanted to refute your thesis. I said that I disagree with it. And I pointed out that the case you brought verbatim was flawed.

Disagreement does not require me to refute any of it; I can let it stand well and secure in the confidence that I have the a pattern of evidence backing me up, which I consider to be more coherent and logical sound.



As for "did I actually disagree":

Unlike what you state, I actually did point out why I disagree:

Homeworld 2, despite declaring is the Hiigarans and Kara S'Jet the protagonists, is not about them outside the Prologue (Missions 1-2) and the Epilogue (Final Mission + Ending Cutscene) which I consider to be framing. Their actions do not drive to the plot and their are not imbued with much agency, as the plot does not really rely on them doing anything but is driven by the Bentusi, the Oracle, the Movers, the Keeper and of course Maakan and the Vagyr entering the stage they stand on.

As such it is hard to claim that the story of the Homeworld 2 is expressly about them. While a connection through the Hiigarans rising to new power, understanding and prominence exists, it is a very different rise than in Homeworld 1: This rise is not by their actions or designs. This essential difference makes it thematically similar but not the same.

For example: The plot development of Homeworld 1 may have been kickstarted by the bombing the prison world but the plans to leave the planet for Hiigara were already in place well before that, as evidenced by the Cyrotrays being present in the Mission 1 already.
While Homeworld 2 opens with the launch of the Pride of Hiigara, we are informed in sequence first of Maakan's ambition to conquer Hiigara, than of the construction of the mothership - implying that the latter was predicated on the former.

(I would like to point out now, that of course the protagonist of a story does not have to be source of all agency in that story. The entire genre of tragedy is rooted in its protagonist(s) "suffering" either the agency of others or the inadequacy of their own agency.)

This is why in my opinion your assertion of a thematic connection in the story proper does not hold much water.*

*= Just to avoid a future misunderstanding: "if an opinion or a statement does not hold water, it can be shown to be wrong", so for a statement to metaphorical not hold much water does not mean that it is completely wrong or false. I am merely expressing my disagreement. If you bring a more detailed case, I would be open to reconsider.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 24, 2017, 12:31:35 pm
I think HW2 is best understood as a hopelessly fumbled attempt at making the thematic continuation that E is talking about, really.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: The E on June 24, 2017, 01:33:51 pm
Uhm ... You treat me as if called you names but all I did was to say that I would like (or do) disagree with your reading of themes involved. I did not say that you were "wrong", I merely pointed out the flaws in the case you brought.

I may have been flippant in my last statement, and for that I'd like to apologize.

As for nitpicking/pedantry: Is it from time to point out that in order for the grammar to make sense it has to be "giants' backs" or "its shoulders" in the first sentence of your thesis :D

I have to apologize as well, I do get easily frustrated when my attempts to explain myself don't work.

Quote
Homeworld 2, despite declaring is the Hiigarans and Kara S'Jet the protagonists, is not about them outside the Prologue (Missions 1-2) and the Epilogue (Final Mission + Ending Cutscene) which I consider to be framing. Their actions do not drive to the plot and their are not imbued with much agency, as the plot does not really rely on them doing anything but is driven by the Bentusi, the Oracle, the Movers, the Keeper and of course Maakan and the Vagyr entering the stage they stand on.

That is, in my opinion, a failure of the writers to translate their themes into story. The question of who is and isn't the protagonist and who has agency is immaterial in the discussion of what themes are shared between the games; We all know that HW2 as a text is hideously flawed, but a theme is a theme, even if expressed badly.

Quote
As such it is hard to claim that the story of the Homeworld 2 is expressly about them. While a connection through the Hiigarans rising to new power, understanding and prominence exists, it is a very different rise than in Homeworld 1: This rise is not by their actions or designs. This essential difference makes it thematically similar but not the same.

But that thematic similarity was my entire point!

Quote
For example: The plot development of Homeworld 1 may have been kickstarted by the bombing the prison world but the plans to leave the planet for Hiigara were already in place well before that, as evidenced by the Cyrotrays being present in the Mission 1 already.
While Homeworld 2 opens with the launch of the Pride of Hiigara, we are informed in sequence first of Maakan's ambition to conquer Hiigara, than of the construction of the mothership - implying that the latter was predicated on the former.

This is unimportant to my point about the theme being "growth through understanding" though. In DoK, we learn that we're not from Kharak, but descendants of people who were transported to Kharak and may be able to escape our dying world; In HW1, we learn that we are actually prisoners and that we have the chance to reclaim our ancestral home, and in HW2, we learn that the Progenitors, whose relics fill the skies and through whose advanced science we were able to rebuild, have left behind the keys to their kingdom for us to find and use and thus claim their place for ourselves.

Who the protagonist is, and who is driving the plot in each case doesn't matter in this regard.

Quote
This is why in my opinion your assertion of a thematic connection in the story proper does not hold much water.*

*= Just to avoid a future misunderstanding: "if an opinion or a statement does not hold water, it can be shown to be wrong", so for a statement to metaphorical not hold much water does not mean that it is completely wrong or false. I am merely expressing my disagreement. If you bring a more detailed case, I would be open to reconsider.

But you yourself pointed out that thematic similarities do exist. My entire point here is that the similarities between DoK, HW1 and HW2 are stronger than between HWC and the other games.
Title: Re: Homeworld: Emergence? What is that? Also Deserts of Kharak on GOG
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 26, 2017, 12:50:31 am
I preferred the cataclysm story to the homeworld 2 story as home word 2 didn't give me any sort of preamble in the manual or game.  It was simply, you've defeated the pan galactic empire in homeworld 1 any established yourself as it's equal.  Oh by the way, have some new super raider clan thing that's now challenging you.  The visuals were nice in 2 but the missions felt lacking.   Where as the visuals in cataclysm were not fantastic and the ships were downright ugly but the story and the mood had me gripped from the off.