Hard Light Productions Forums

Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Nightmare on April 02, 2018, 04:49:23 pm

Title: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on April 02, 2018, 04:49:23 pm
^Title says anything. TotT was one of a hand full campaigns I was looking forward to (of which most sadly disappeared over time), I played the Demo shortly after it got released and enjoyed it very much - I liked the concept of a new species and the subspace cruisers. Yet the campaign disappeared some years ago, along with the former project leader (BengalTiger), however several staff members are still around. I haven't seen that the mod has been officially cancelled nor released anything, so I wanted to know...

1. what would the story have been about? The demo was short but fairly interesting.
2. are there any assets left that could be released? The Tiigran-Merisst ships looked pretty and there were apparently several unreleased ones. Also, I don't like it to see work go to waste.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: 0rph3u5 on April 02, 2018, 05:12:46 pm
The Mod was hosted in FSmods for a long time but when the admin and site-framework changed it fell off the map... At the tail end I belive only BengalTiger was still working on it AFAIK, who despite his/her general productivity mostly made assets...

I might still have some old files somewhere in bowls of backups but they are hardly up to date; I was one of the projects mission designer for a while* but since I mostly focused on missions that were set before the Tiigran-Merisst showed up (acutally the last mission I worked on had them show up)... As always I kinda dropped off to work on my own projects (back then Workings of the Warp was still a thing) and wasn't roped back in.

*Part of deal where I would get access to the assets prior to release, test and repurpose them as long as I wouldn't show and release stuff before BengalTiger.

As for story-notes, when I was working on it most of the story and plot was still up in the air - although some key points were there-there. I hate to sound like a tease but that is really all I can say.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 03, 2018, 01:09:44 am
Your post is the first I've heard it mentioned in ages. (And I'm on the team  :sigh:)
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on April 03, 2018, 03:25:52 pm
Yeah its sad when mods die, but that nobody cares about it to the point that nobody's even asking "I saw this cool thing, what happened to it" is probably worse... While this one has been obviously dead for some time, nobody asked about TI neither in several years.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Hellstryker on April 03, 2018, 03:32:29 pm
Oh wow, you picked an interesting time to post this...

I was pretty much the lead modeler for the thing, working on HTLing all the Tiigran ships Bengal cooked up. It depends on who you ask really but I personally lost interest in its development due to creative differences.

1: I'll leave answers about the story question up to Bengal if he pokes his head in because, as I mentioned, creative differences, but you would have gotten to see both Shivan and Tiigran space.
2: Yes, there are a few laying around, some of which I probably still have, including an HTL Sipahi model.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on April 03, 2018, 03:40:27 pm
I remember that the Shivans showed up (pretty much) in the demo.

2 questions...

Wasn't there some Shivan carrier as well, or was that ever finished?
And, do you you require a permission to release the things you made (in case you're interested in releasing them at all)?
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Hellstryker on April 03, 2018, 03:42:30 pm
I shot you a PM. I honestly don't know if I need permission to release some of this stuff or not, which is why I'm going to err on the side of caution here and say no to everything I didn't directly create myself. There was a Shivan carrier I was working on, the Vetala, which was a mirrored Ravana with the front section of a Lamia. Which.. sounds stupid, but it was actually pretty neat looking.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 04, 2018, 12:34:12 am
Anything you personally made is fair game I say.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nyctaeus on April 04, 2018, 03:53:57 am
Deal is simple: If a project is dead, and no-one is gonna make is less dead than it currently is, it's up to you to do whatever you want with your stuff. Releasing the assets is usually the best option.

I mean, it's always fully up to you if you release your work, or not. Eventual project leader may only request you to keep your work exclusive for the sake of project, but you are no to obligated to agree.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Jadehawk on April 04, 2018, 08:06:22 am
When we started, I was doing the textures for the initial modeling, but not the later version which as been explained, went high poly. I still have some of my stuff laying on my external hard drive some where. As someone who also helped test the missions, I felt the beginning ones were really interesting. :)

Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on April 08, 2018, 12:58:38 pm
When we started, I was doing the textures for the initial modeling, but not the later version which as been explained, went high poly. I still have some of my stuff laying on my external hard drive some where. As someone who also helped test the missions, I felt the beginning ones were really interesting. :)

Is there a chance that you release some of the things you made (of course, unless they're all depending on BengalTigers work)?
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Jadehawk on April 08, 2018, 05:43:30 pm
about the only thing I could release are the early textures which I did. everything else would be up to BT.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on April 08, 2018, 06:03:56 pm
Well, early textures (without model) doesn't help that much... but thanks for the reply :)
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Hellstryker on April 11, 2018, 09:28:57 pm
Well, I'm gonna go ahead and make a model dump here. None of this stuff ever reached the texturing stage, but I'm pretty proud of what I managed to pull off with the Sipahi using only SketchUp back in 2008. You'll either need to use SketchUp to open these, or newer versions of 3ds Max can import them as well.

Boom. (http://www.mediafire.com/file/spju44nloil7jhb/TotT_model_dump.7z)

I've still got a soft spot for that Tiigran carrier, the Pierrefonds. The Vetala is pretty bomb looking too, mirrored Ravana kitbashed with a Lamia or not.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: BengalTiger on August 11, 2018, 11:22:56 pm
Well well well...
Most of the TotT team is still on these forums, talking about TotT. Wow, never thought I'd run into this especially as it's my 1st time logging in in a couple years.

This thread seems to be missing some input from the founder of this mod. I think I can fix it.


Behold y'all, BengalTiger is back

As stated above, the team fell apart somewhere mid project. I kept working on it for a while, but it eventually went into hibernation.
I was not the greatest programmer back in the day (still ain't) and I had a limited amount of time to do this.

Another reason was that I spent lots of my free time running an outfit in Planetside 2 (Redneck Hillbillies of Auraxis [RHoA]). There were some 80 members at the peak (we'd kick out anyone who didn't log in for more than a month so these were pretty active members).
There was a forum which I was active on, I'd do tutorials on how to play the game for newcomers, training runs and events etc (both in the outfit and with others sometimes), so it was very busy for a couple years.

Later on I moved from Poland to the US and the RHoA fell apart due to time zone issues.
Which was all great on how much free time I suddenly had, but...
I now work 12 hours a day, so I still don't have the time to work on TotT too much.
In other words it's still in hibernation.

I do have all the files somewhere though, including stuff I never shared on the forums on fsmods.
I am also waiting for some better times to finish this (maybe when I retire a few decades from now)....  :P

It was also soooo nice to see someone remember about this.

P.S. So, since this topic is up in the spotlight again - what do we do now?
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on August 11, 2018, 11:25:40 pm
Quote
P.S. So, since this topic is up in the spotlight again - what do we do now?

PM'ing some people I'd guess?

Edit:
AAANNNDDD: WELCOME BACK :)

And cool to hear you want to finish this until 2050. :p
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 12, 2018, 03:38:02 pm
I won't be able to commit due to 9 month old son, and new private sector EOD job meaning I'll be travelling a whole hell of a lot.  But it's good to see you back.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Jadehawk on August 13, 2018, 01:44:27 pm
Life happens and I hope within 7 years, my lovely wife and myself will retire from the working world. When that happens, suddenly I'll have gobs of time on my hands and would venture back into stuff like this game. I do modeling now (No UV mapping yet as this is my biggest roadblock) Texturing is easy for me due to my professional background. Having said all this, who know what will happens between now and then. :) As what do I do currently? Well I play MechWarrior Online in Assault Mechs in a 100ton stomping robot. But I do miss strappin on a fighter and blowing up Shivians. :)
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: 0rph3u5 on August 19, 2018, 10:32:06 pm
Hi BengalTiger,

Nice to see you back and active...

While I do want to see what will come of this, I have to say that I can't come back to help... I've to join the workforce in earnest by the end of the year 'cause I fail to "earn" my recommendations for a position that would allow me to stay in academia (also my grade average is just south of what I'd need, by a single decimal point)... so I will focus on finally pushing out portfolio stuff for myself for foreseeable future (*discomfort rising*)...

Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on August 20, 2018, 11:36:38 pm
That really looks like I'd have to wait until 2030+. :(

@BengalTiger: Even though you're just back- do you already have some detailed plot-outline (in case enough people/somebody volunteers)? Last time I heard it was still subject to changes.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: BengalTiger on August 22, 2018, 12:39:15 am


I won't be able to commit due to 9 month old son, and new private sector EOD job meaning I'll be travelling a whole hell of a lot.  But it's good to see you back.
Explosive Ordnance Disposal? Can I make an assumption that robots are involved?

Hi BengalTiger,

Nice to see you back and active...

While I do want to see what will come of this, I have to say that I can't come back to help... I've to join the workforce in earnest by the end of the year 'cause I fail to "earn" my recommendations for a position that would allow me to stay in academia (also my grade average is just south of what I'd need, by a single decimal point)... so I will focus on finally pushing out portfolio stuff for myself for foreseeable future (*discomfort rising*)...


Well then maybe join in on that EOD gig?
I heard its a blast.

That really looks like I'd have to wait until 2030+. :(

@BengalTiger: Even though you're just back- do you already have some detailed plot-outline (in case enough people/somebody volunteers)? Last time I heard it was still subject to changes.

Those changes being were worked out a few years ago. Later I did some writing and now I have a coherent plot, as well as a timeline of T-M as a species in general and the evolution of their space ships that goes well beyond what TotT would cover...

Now I would need to work on the details and make mission by mission "chapters" (or at least some of them)...
Then I'll ask for help with FREDding to make it work in game.

I believe I would be able to find a 3D artist easily to help out with the models that still need work.
Much of the stuff that was sort of done will need to get remade quite a bit, I came up with some better ideas over the years.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on August 22, 2018, 12:47:24 am
That sounds pretty good. :) I'm sorry if I bother you too much with my questions (but I still have some) :nervous:

Can you give some stats yet? I mean how many missions in total/per chapter, how many ships are planned (I've heard it's been 30 in the original)/done/need to be redone, things like that?

So TotT is going to be a chapter-based releases?
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Jadehawk on August 22, 2018, 01:29:48 pm
I remember LONG ago when I was part of this testing the first 5 or 6 missions that the first campaign was supposed to be like something around 50+ missions. Correct me if I'm wrong as it was a LONG time ago. The missions I DID test were great, first brief encounter of a TM fighter at a Node, a blockade mission that was way cool and so on. The more I think about it, the more I wish I was not so busy back then.  I'd like to help again someday when this is going full tilt again, but cannot do much (like Freespace does not work well on current laptop).

I'm keeping tabs on this thread :)


Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: BengalTiger on August 28, 2018, 08:42:24 pm
That sounds pretty good. :) I'm sorry if I bother you too much with my questions (but I still have some) :nervous:

Can you give some stats yet? I mean how many missions in total/per chapter, how many ships are planned (I've heard it's been 30 in the original)/done/need to be redone, things like that?

So TotT is going to be a chapter-based releases?

Well let's see...

There's like 13 player ships, from stealth fighters to interceptors, multi role fighters, strategic bombers and gunships...
I think they're all ready to go, albeit low quality in terms of visuals.
That's just on the Tiigran side of things (won't spoil anything else).

The T-M also have 2 cutters (this sort of large transport size patrol unit); 2 Destroyer Escorts (cruiser-ish size ships with less weapons but more AWACS); 2 Corvettes (IIRC this is where in game models end); 2 frigates (modeled, not finished, will need a rebuild to look better); 2 carriers (same); a Dreadnought (one of those most guns forward sort of thingies, I don't think its even textured); 2 battleships (definitely not textured, need a rebuild, these guys will have their main guns in rotating turrets)...
Also a few (actually, a lot of) ships that have .tbl entries and possibly partial models done of various other types, combat and non-combat.

As for the campaign, I'll look into it soon. So far trying to find my way through the mod files to see what needs to be done, then I'll have to make a few concept drawings and get a quick tutorial on Blender, as well as getting a friend involved.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on August 28, 2018, 08:58:40 pm
Hmm, that sounds like a doable thing, unless you start upgrading all not-100%-up-tp-date ships (I'm not a modeller though).
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on October 22, 2019, 07:12:26 pm
:bump:
Anything become of this?
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nyctaeus on October 22, 2019, 07:43:57 pm
No matter what others may say: Midpoly ships are still good :P
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: BengalTiger on October 24, 2019, 07:56:53 pm
Well, some will be low poly. :-P

But yeah, mod is slowly progressing...

Alas, I do not have any flashy updates now, I did lots of bug hunting, story writing and stuff like that recently.

Also I need to polish my skills in Blender.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on October 24, 2019, 08:14:29 pm
That's good~ :yes: :yes:
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on November 03, 2019, 05:30:57 pm
Do you still have the ships that got upgraded by former TotT team members? I remember this HTL Cataphract that never got released.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: 5thAce on November 03, 2019, 06:25:12 pm
Is there a demo of this available somewhere? It sounds very interesting!
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on November 03, 2019, 06:31:27 pm
It's not on Knossos but on SG: https://sectorgame.com/fsfiles/download/dXBsb2Fkcy9Qcm9qZWN0cyUyMC0lMjBDYW1wYWlnbnMlMjAtJTIwVENzL0RlbW9zL1RlZXRoJTIwb2YlMjB0aGUlMjBUaWdlciUyMEludHJvJTIwdjEuMCUyMCUyOFNDUCUyOS56aXA=/h/195357eb91bf92d20117c0752efb7f15

It probably hasn't been updated since the release 10 years ago, but I liked it a lot.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: 5thAce on November 05, 2019, 02:46:24 am
Thanks for the link, the demo was quite fun! Im always interested in stories that involve new species.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on November 05, 2019, 05:19:57 am
In that case you should play Twisted Infinities once it's released. :)
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: BengalTiger on November 10, 2019, 07:51:17 pm
It most definitely hasn't been updated, not that I know of at least...


Anyways...

How to design a Warship in (Free)Space?

I'm working on some of the larger ships now, I'll spoil the logic behind the designs.
I read up on cruiser, battleship or carrier design before hitting the drawing board (I have a helper who will do the 3D stuff - so the drawing board is literally with a pencil. I'm currently also doing weapons and their visual effects, which have sooooo many options to play with...).

In FreeSpace there always is the possibility of a big ship warping in next to a big ship of the enemy side. This means there is quite the need for having a direct combat force.
These would be battleships and cruisers (or in FS terms - frigates), as well as destroyers (or over here - corvettes) to a smaller extent.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Wisconsin_%28BB-64%29%2C_USS_Saint_Paul_%28CA-73%29_and_USS_Buck_%28DD-761%29_underway_off_Korea_on_22_February_1952_%2880-G-440021%29.jpg/1280px-Wisconsin_%28BB-64%29%2C_USS_Saint_Paul_%28CA-73%29_and_USS_Buck_%28DD-761%29_underway_off_Korea_on_22_February_1952_%2880-G-440021%29.jpg)
A destroyer, battleship and a cruiser

Some considerations on firepower:

Ships work in an environment where threats can come from any direction. Thus they will have their firepower distributed all around them - including above and below, just like a real world one needs to be covered from forward and aft.
The main battery should have the best possible coverage, and this is where things get a bit funky. Your typical GTVA destroyer in FreeSpace can fire all around itself, but with not a single area that can be covered by the whole battery. Your typical Shivan destroyer can fire all weapons forward, but when it gets flanked, it's safe to sit there with a Sobek and blast away.

So, let's put our main guns in turrets, and give their guns some depression so they can fire below the horizon. This gives far more coverage than any crater shaped beam cannon can dream of.
They should be placed on the hull to provide a clear field of fire, so going with the highest point and the lowest point (and making the rest of the ship taper down towards the ends) seems to be the way to go.

Then the next turrets should be in positions where the ones with full view could superfire over them...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/USS_Wisconsin_%28BB-64%29_underway_at_sea%2C_circa_1988-1991_%28NH_97206-KN%29.jpg/817px-USS_Wisconsin_%28BB-64%29_underway_at_sea%2C_circa_1988-1991_%28NH_97206-KN%29.jpg)
Superfiring gun turrets

This gives a warship that can fire all guns forward, all guns to both sides (within the range of the gun depression), and then the turrets with a 360 deg view can also engage targets behind the ship. With 2 turrets up top and 2 bottom for instance, half the firepower is also available for stuff above and below until the ship adjusts its orientation, and only an enemy from directly behind would require some significant maneuvering to put a full broadside into it.

The Hiigaran battlecruiser in Homeworld 2 is a great example of such a configuration, except it has only 2 main gun turrets and Tiigran-Merisst ships will have a bit more of em...
The size and number of guns will be a good indicator of what sort of firepower a ship carries.

Some considerations on protection:

Now battleships and cruisers have what's called a citadel....
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fqph.fs.quoracdn.net%2Fmain-qimg-f8005113f0bf86b15b405e3c5cbfe76c-c&f=1&nofb=1)
The mighty Yamato

This is a way of saving weight around the less important parts to have the ability to put as much armor as possible on the important bits. As long as the citadel is intact, the ship can be shredded all over and it will still stay afloat.
Expect T-M warships (the larger ones designed for duking it out at least) to have a sort of armored outer layer on which the main battery is mounted, and within which the reactor and such would fit. This will be a visual cue that the ship has a disproportionate amount of hitponts as well.

Some considerations on subsystems:

Alright, but what about the bridge, comms, sensors and other subsystems? A warship needs to see, needs to have a control center, needs to move around... Just being able to shoot and get shot does not make a warship yet.
Welp, everything has to be clear of the main battery. The nav bridge can be a step down below the upper guns, comms will fit a step above the lower ones (sort of like the antenna plantation on the GTD Orion).
Sensors can go in a place where there is also a great view... On the very bow of the ship, put on a spire.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/FuG_220_and_FuG_202_radar_of_Me_110_1945.jpg)
A space ship also sort of works like an airplane, right?

Capital ships also have their own airplane facilities:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fussstlouis.net%2FImages%2FSt%2520%2520Louis%2520Catapults.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Scout floatplanes, they get moved to/from the hangar using a crane, launch off a catapult and then land in the water next to the ship.

The hangar on a space warship can be on the centerline, so it is clear of the main guns. Tiigran frigates and battleships will have disproportionately small hangar facilities compared to GTVA or Shivan ships of their size. There are better ships to do this task then the ones that are dedicated to carrying guns and armor, and this sort of mirrors reality again.

The whole rest of the ship remains free for the secondary and point defense batteries and docking points.

Now regarding corvettes and carriers - these are for another little chapter I guess...

Hope all y'all enjoyed the read... This is another, unseen part of modding that I personally like - looking for inspirations and figuring stuff out... sort of engineering it all in a way.
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on November 10, 2019, 11:52:56 pm
Nice read :) Thanks for sharing !
Title: Re: What happened to Teeth of the Tiger?
Post by: Nightmare on November 12, 2019, 07:43:46 pm
Interesting read! :) I actually have Terran Destroyer that has taken some of the design aspects you mentioned into account (i.e. the placement of the flak turrets).

2 things:
-My question's still there: Do you still have the ships that got upgraded by former TotT team members? I remember this HTL Cataphract that never got released.
-Do you want to make this a Dev thread? I'd ask a mod/admin to split out the posts from here onward if you want that: https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=94636.msg1871742#msg1871742