Hard Light Productions Forums

FreeSpace Releases => Mission & Campaign Releases => Topic started by: Kestrellius on November 17, 2018, 07:39:20 pm

Title: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on November 17, 2018, 07:39:20 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/vUBkUkt.png)

Mantle 1.0.0 is now available on Knossos! See bottom of post for download.

In this fourteen-mission campaign, you'll get a chance to play as a pilot serving on a Hammer of Light destroyer which, by misfortune or providence, becomes trapped in Shivan territory. Faced with peril both mortal and spiritual, will you and your allies have the fortitude to survive?

Screenshots:

(https://i.imgur.com/wwhGPtq.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/w0h6Cra.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/nlQmY14.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/rplGZXj.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/nlQmY14.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/OxKGRzz.png)

Major changes:

- New Hammer of Light variants for the ships and weapons used by Runihara Cell. Hammer of Light textures for the Typhon, Aten, and Sekhmet were made by Galemp; the rest were hacked together by me.
- The experience of playing the first three missions no longer so closely resembles the experience of pulling out one's teeth through one's digestive tract.
- Various other balance tweaks and writing edits.
- Probably some other things I've forgotten about; I did most of this about a year ago.

Mantle 1.0.0 requires Blue Planet Complete, MediaVPs_2014, and SCP 3.8.0-2.

Please alert me to any issues you encounter.

Credits:

- The Blue Planet team and its contributors, for assets and music used.
- The MediaVPs team and its contributors, for models and textures used.
- Galemp, for Hammer of Light Typhon, Aten, and Sekhmet skins.

(https://fsnebula.org/static/kn_download.png) (https://fsnebula.org/mod/Mantle)
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on November 17, 2018, 09:14:01 pm
 :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

Downloading BPC right now so I can't play it at the moment but I just want to say that I've got some nice memories of this campaign. To anyone reading this, definitely have a go at this mod, you won't be disappointed.

And two questions: will it function with MediaVPs 3.8.2 instead of 3.7.2? And is only the 3.8.0-2 FSO build required or it will work with latest nightlies?
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: QuakeIV on November 17, 2018, 11:43:13 pm
At least on Knossos, the first mission doesn't let me use afterburners.  Is that intentional?  I don't think the briefing mentions anything about it.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on November 18, 2018, 12:11:13 am
At least on Knossos, the first mission doesn't let me use afterburners.  Is that intentional?  I don't think the briefing mentions anything about it.

The Anubis doesn't actually have afterburners, presumably because of Vasudan budget cuts or something.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: QuakeIV on November 18, 2018, 02:46:37 am
Ah, thats just me herping the derp then.  Saw the engine energy bar and got confused.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Goober5000 on November 18, 2018, 06:12:57 pm
Highlighted! :yes:  This has gotten good reviews; I look forward to playing it.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: woutersmits on November 19, 2018, 01:53:19 pm
they like you to die as shivan goober5000
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: tomimaki on November 21, 2018, 11:17:29 am
Hm, I get 13 warnings at start. 1 comes from BP, but rest from Mantle.
https://fsnebula.org/log/5bf546dccb0d333375a851ff
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on November 22, 2018, 01:58:17 am
I also get the 13 warnings.  Didn't really run into any bugs until mission 7 (The Bitter Scroll).  Everybody warps out, and I get the command to return to the fighter bay...but I fly into the fighter bay and nothing happens.  No option to warp out either, so I can't proceed past that mission.  Really enjoyable campaign so far though!

Also, fun fact...if you accelerate time until the Demon gets in beam range, the Apocalypse will absolutely destroy it.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on November 23, 2018, 08:16:19 pm
@bug reports:

I'm away from home at the moment, but I'll be back on Monday or Tuesday. Once I return I'll sort these issues out and release the fixes.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on November 25, 2018, 11:44:27 pm
Okay, finished it. Just as I remembered, it's revolving around an interesting concept and has got some good moments (plus the writing isn't half bad), but a bit... rough around the edges. There are the warnings, default loadouts are nothing more than lol, first couple missions don't really make too much sense, and mission backgrounds are quite... deserted. I have also experienced crashes - last two missions were especially notable of that, other ones were much much more stable. I will PM you a more detailed nitpicking text, Kestrellius :P.

As for warnings, the campaign is definitely playable in its current state, but you may come across some instability. I played the campaign on a FSO nightly from 7th Nov instead of 3.8.0-3 release so that might be causing the issue. Just in case I've uploaded a debug log (made on 3.8.0-3): https://fsnebula.org/log/5bfb3637cb0d33337aa851ff (https://fsnebula.org/log/5bfb3637cb0d33337aa851ff). I've also attempted that on the nightly I played it on, but after the first error (the BP-related one) is displayed I can't click on any of the Debug/Continue/Exit options, since regardless of where I click, everything FSO-related gets "alt-tabbed", so it seems like some problem with Windows/FSO communication.

@theperfectdrugsk:
Mission 7 (The Bitter Scroll) is playable for me, both from the Tech Room and normal campaign progress. I guess flying into the fighterbay might be a little bugged - maybe only one of the entrances is taken into consideration? I've also noticed that this mission actually needs you to fly into the fighterbay entrance a bit deeper than other ones, I guess this might be somehow related to the problem. Maybe the mission doesn't really detect you properly if you don't fly right in the center of fighterbay's entrance?
As for the Demon, this mission doesn't predict that you'll stick around to see the fight, so it has a several quite big issues with it. For one, no fighters, bombers or additional warships are involved in the battle, and both destroyers don't attempt any battle maneuvers which leaves them in really poor positions. The Apocalypse doesn't have a way to bear both heavy beams on that Demon at the same time (aren't these cannons on completely different sides of the ship anyway?) and the enemy destroyer has that stupid angle of approach that its two main beams have the Apocalypse just a bit outside their field of view until they park alongside each other. At first glance I thought Demon's beams are just locked but the smaller one on top did actually fire.
And even not accounting other forces, the Apocalypse has got very slim chances of surviving the fight since it is already damaged by enemies from earlier and that Demon can wreck it with a single beam cannon in a bit above 30 seconds even when being bombarded by that Vasudan beam for quite a while.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on November 27, 2018, 07:10:16 am
Okay. So, something here is borked. The loadouts you're seeing are definitely not supposed to be what they are, and you're meant to have access to the HoL weapon variants (meaning the red Prometheus, HL-8, and yellow-exhaust variants of the Tempest and Cyclops) in all missions where the retail versions are available.

Now the thing is, none of the things I just mentioned are appearing on my end. When I run Mantle from the Knossos mods page, I get no warnings (unless I'm running debug, anyway). The loadouts are as I remember them -- no Akhetons, and the missile racks are full. Oh, and Mito, there were a couple of suggestions you made -- the Ganymede in Mission 1 not having a shockwave, and the enemy ships at the end of Mission 4 warping out when damaged -- that are already supposed to be there. And they seem to be, in my version. I'm less sure about the Ganymede explosion, but the fighters in Tribulation definitely leave when damaged enough.

So...you guys have a different version of the mission files, for some reason. Apparently one in which my custom weapons are missing from the default loadouts. I'm not really sure why that's happening, but maybe uploading it again will help? I'll work on this more tomorrow; it's pretty late here.

Anyway. So, there's certainly stuff to fix and tweak -- the retail variants of weapons I've made HoL versions for shouldn't even be available, for one, since that's just confusing; and I don't seem to have paid enough attention to missile counts in a few cases -- but the majority of the issues being reported don't show up on my end, so I should be able to fix them in one fell swoop if I can figure out why it's happening.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: ngld on December 06, 2018, 08:41:18 pm
I've also attempted that on the nightly I played it on, but after the first error (the BP-related one) is displayed I can't click on any of the Debug/Continue/Exit options, since regardless of where I click, everything FSO-related gets "alt-tabbed", so it seems like some problem with Windows/FSO communication.
That's an SDL bug. 3.8.0-3 is not affected since it uses an older version of SDL.
To get around it, you can go to FSO settings > Dev Tool and enable "Disables interactive dialogs". That'll just skip all dialogs. You probably shouldn't keep that option enabled for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on December 07, 2018, 12:24:01 pm
Oh, thanks for the info. As for Mantle, I'm waiting for the reupload on Knossos (you could probably just make a new version to download) and then I will check out if these issues still persist.

Actually, I've noticed that if I launch a mission from the tech room, no loadout issues show up and everything is pefectly fine (using 3.8.0-3). Using 3.8.1-20181107 nightly, only the first mission has got a borked loadout when launched from the techroom, the same happens for it when launched through Continue campaign. The hell?
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on December 17, 2018, 04:59:10 am
Something weird is going on with my loadouts.  Am I supposed to still only have access to the Akheton and Rockeye by the 2nd mission?  I'm given the distinct impression that ought not to be the case since I'm supposed to go blow up a convoy.  With limited reload and nothing but an anti-subsystem, that's just not going to work, is it?

Going to try removing the mod and reinstalling, but here's my debug spew, if it is of any help.
https://fsnebula.org/log/5c1732a4cb0d3328fffd57ed (https://fsnebula.org/log/5c1732a4cb0d3328fffd57ed)

Really enjoying the dialog from the POV of fanatic zealot aliens!
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on December 17, 2018, 12:10:28 pm
That's definitely not supposed to be happening. Something appears to be broken. It's all fine on my end, so I've tried reuploading a couple times, but I'm not sure what's going wrong.

Well, I do need to check if something's wrong with the campaign weapon permissions. That might be the cause of the loadout issues, and I might've missed it. But I'm reasonably certain there's something else going on.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Iain Baker on December 17, 2018, 12:31:17 pm
I had this too. Most of the NPC wingmen appeared to have them too, although somehow theirs appeared to be able to kills things, unless they were finishing them off with secondaries, I couldn't be sure.

Also happens in the third mission.

By the fourth mission - in the subspace corridor - I had (Green) Prometheus cannons. I figured that this was deliberate, since the raid on the station was in part to obtain better weapons. "Ah, we stole some decent primaries, so now they are equipped and I can start blowing things up." I thought. Guess I was wrong.

PS - this also suggests that on normal difficulty at least, you can complete the first three missions by being a spectator 90% of the time.

PPS - Not sure if this is related or not, but my copy of BP had a game braking glitch during 'The eye of the storm' mission (The tower defence of the refinery mission), whereby the mouse stopped working for flight control after placing the tanks. Worse, even if the mission was completed successfully, the debrief screen said mission failed, preventing me from progressing the final mission. Could a bug from my BP install be causing other issues with mods that are based on it? Would a complete delete of everything BP related and reinstalling it all fresh help?
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on December 17, 2018, 02:23:12 pm
Since the topic has awakened, I'd like to point at the addendum in my earlier post. Also, could anyone check if the weapon loadout problems persist on different builds or when launching missions from the Tech Room?

I guess that at some point you maybe tried to give players access to new weapons based on their performance in earlier missions or something. IIRC, this could only be done via editing mission/campaign files with Notepad or a similar tool and maybe something went wrong.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on December 17, 2018, 05:53:55 pm
Not quite. So, in the original release, everything was just vanilla weapons. (Well, some of them were altered by BP, but you know what I mean.) This included green Prom Rs, as the starting weapon. When I started modifying assets to make them more HoL-appropriate, I eventually decided to create variants of all the weapons that didn't have red, orange, or yellow effects. (Well, except the Akheton, but nobody cares about the Akheton and it's never really used in the campaign. Also I forgot it existed.)

So I made a Hammer of Light variant of the Prom R, which shoots red bolts. You are supposed to be, by default, equipped with this red Prom R in all of the first seven missions of the campaign -- up until you
Spoiler:
retrieve the supplies containing Mekhus from the Revelation and Witness in Mission 7, "The Bitter Scroll".

Now, in the version I released last month, I left the original, non-HoL variants of all those weapons -- including the green Prom R -- as options in the mission loadouts. I figured giving the player extra options couldn't be a bad thing. In retrospect, this was a stupid decision -- it just creates pointless confusion, especially since I'm not even sure it's possible to tell the variants apart in the weapon select screen.

So, in the version that I uploaded (or at least tried to upload) a couple days ago, I fixed that -- the mission loadout options only give you access to HoL variants.

But for some reason the version you guys are getting is different from the version I uploaded. (Both times. Borked loadouts involving Akhetons were never part of anything I uploaded.) It sounds like what's happening is that my HoL weapon variants are missing from the mission loadouts for some reason, which is why they only appear in the red-alert missions -- in those cases they're forced in by the mission's red-alert status. As for why they'd be substituted with Akhetons...my guess would be that it's because you're required to have at least one primary weapon, and...maybe the Akheton comes first alphabetically...?

Based on some other things Mito said, I think what might be going on is that the game is using old mission files, from the original release. (But maybe only partially, or something? If the old missions are being used, the weapon variants shouldn't be present in the red-alerts, either. It kind of sounds like the game is trying to mash the two versions of the missions together, but I don't know how or why that would happen.)

For reference, could you guys tell me some other things about the missions you're getting? Specifically, what color are things? All of the HoL ships, from warships to fighters (with the exception of the Bes-class Witness), are supposed to have red glows, rather than the original blue. Which are you seeing? If they're red, are all of the ships red, or is it just the Typhon and Aten, with the others still being blue?

Similarly, what do the blobs from the HoL's turrets look like? They're supposed to start yellow and gradually turn red, as well as having a slightly different texture from the standard blobs. Do they look like that, or do they look like the normal ones? (Or are they starting-yellow-turning-red,  but still using the regular textures -- the way they look in the OP's second screenshot? I ask because the different texture was a very late addition, so if you're seeing an intermediate version that might shed light on what's happening.)

I really do apologize for how much a ****show this is. Unfortunately I'm genuinely not sure what's going on here or how to fix it.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on December 17, 2018, 06:14:22 pm
HoL ships have the red glows both in mission and in the Tech Room, from what I see.  The HoL cruiser seems to be shooting yellow stuff fading into orange / red.  The beams look more orange than typical Vasudan beams.

I've tried multiple different builds from nightlies all the way back to 3.8.0-2, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.  (I don't get all the error messages in the earlier release builds, but I can't tell that those are actually related to the real problem or not.)

I did install the first 1.0.0 version of Mantle from Knossos when it came out, but I didn't get a chance to play it until 1.0.1 came out (at least not that I remember!).  Installed 1.0.1 on top of it.

I have uninstalled the mod, reinstalled it, but that didn't make a difference.  Tried switching to a different back-up pilot in case my pilot file was corrupt, but that also made no difference.  This is definitely a weird one.  Let me know anything you'd like me to try.  I'm not very experienced at detailed debugging, but I'd like to help any way I can.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on December 17, 2018, 06:23:28 pm
I can definitely confirm that in 1.0.0 there are both the Prometheus HoL variant and Mekhu HL-8 present, and all the HoL variants of ships are in place. I can't say what's with turrets though, I didn't pay attention.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on December 17, 2018, 06:31:09 pm
Okay. I have uploaded Mantle 1.0.2. Give it a try if you get the chance.

I finally went and looked at the campaign file, and my HoL weapon variants weren't tagged as available at the start, so it's possible this all just happened because I'm a derp. So, I fixed that.

I'm not convinced that was the problem, or the whole problem, though; I'm almost positive that I tested the campaign using the ready room itself, not just the tech room, and that the loadouts were fine. I also think that I went through and made sure the campaign file was correct before releasing 1.0.0, though I could be wrong... So, maybe it reset itself or something?

Anyway. Let me know if the loadout nonsense is still happening in this version. The other problems may take longer to fix -- for that matter, the instability in the last two missions might be unavoidable (assuming I want to keep them basically as-is in terms of gameplay). I think there might just be too much stuff happening in those missions for the engine to reliably handle.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Iain Baker on December 17, 2018, 06:33:27 pm
I get the same as perihelion. I briefly tried the first mission via the tech room, and my ship was armed with the red PromRs. I then carried on with the campaign missions. In the 4th/5th mission - the first time you fly a Thoth against Shivan fighters - my load-out was back to Akhetons.

NB -  the only secondaries available on any of the missions in the campaign thus far have been Rockeyes. I figured this was deliberate since the HoL were low on supplies. However I just noticed that in the first mission via the tech room you have dumbfire rockets too. I assume then the secondaries are affected too.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help fix this.

---NB - just saw you uploaded a newer version. Trying it now ---
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Iain Baker on December 17, 2018, 06:48:55 pm
Just tried it, same problem, sorry. Uninstalled, including manually deleting the mantle folder. Reinstalled, tried again. Still the same problem. :confused: :banghead:
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on December 17, 2018, 08:33:11 pm
Okay. Uh. Yeah, I don't know how to fix this. I'll fiddle with it some more -- I'll try downloading onto a different computer, so I can see what you guys are dealing with.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on December 17, 2018, 09:14:51 pm
Also,
Quote
I really do apologize for how much a ****show this is.
I can't stress enough how you should not apologize. After all, it was you who sacrificed the time and motivation to provide us with this fine scenario. You're running into problems that firstly, aren't your fault or intention and secondly, don't really break the game. Just work on the solution at your own pace, I'm sure you'll nail the problem eventually - and I think we can just wait for it patiently.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on December 17, 2018, 09:22:34 pm
Also,
Quote
I really do apologize for how much a ****show this is.
I can't stress enough how you should not apologize. After all, it was you who sacrificed the time and motivation to provide us with this fine scenario. You're running into problems that firstly, aren't your fault or intention and secondly, don't really break the game. Just work on the solution at your own pace, I'm sure you'll nail the problem eventually - and I think we can just wait for it patiently.

I...I really appreciate that sentiment. Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Iain Baker on December 17, 2018, 09:30:57 pm
Also,
Quote
I really do apologize for how much a ****show this is.
I can't stress enough how you should not apologize. After all, it was you who sacrificed the time and motivation to provide us with this fine scenario. You're running into problems that firstly, aren't your fault or intention and secondly, don't really break the game. Just work on the solution at your own pace, I'm sure you'll nail the problem eventually - and I think we can just wait for it patiently.

Seconded! You put the time in for free to create it and are continuing to do so to fix it, which is more than can be said for some AAA devs. There is no rush to get it sorted, we can wait :-)
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on December 18, 2018, 01:29:42 am
I heartily agree with MitoPL and Iain. This is your baby, don't apologize for it!  You don’t owe us anything. We can certainly be patient, and for what little help I can provide as a tester, I offer it.

I’ll try 1.0.2 on my end as soon as time permits and see if that fixes anything on my end.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on December 18, 2018, 12:34:40 pm
I just tried 1.02 on the most recent nightly (20181217) an older one (20171118), and 3.8.0-3...still only SDGs and rockeyes for loadout.  And I can only launch the campaign from the ready room.  The Mantle shows up in the tech room launcher, but I can't select it or launch it, weirdly.

FWIW, I also still get those warnings when starting up (on the nightly builds, nor on 3.8.0-3), and they seem to be mostly weapons related so maybe that's why the loadouts are funky?

Happy to offer my help (such as it is) as well!
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on December 18, 2018, 04:03:31 pm
You need to press Ctrl+Shift+S in the mission simulator to unlock all the campaign missions you didn't finish yet - if you've got no progress in the campaign, you won't have any missions available for replay without that "hack".
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on December 18, 2018, 04:48:27 pm
You need to press Ctrl+Shift+S in the mission simulator to unlock all the campaign missions you didn't finish yet - if you've got no progress in the campaign, you won't have any missions available for replay without that "hack".

Oh...haha. I guess I never used the mission simulator on a campaign with no progress before...had no idea it'd do that.  Thanks.

So yeah...now I'm seeing pretty much the same behavior as everyone else.  SDGs and Rockeyes for the loadouts in the campaign, while launching from tech room adds prometheus R and dumbfires.  That holds true for the three builds I mentioned above.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Iain Baker on December 18, 2018, 05:54:00 pm
You need to press Ctrl+Shift+S in the mission simulator to unlock all the campaign missions you didn't finish yet - if you've got no progress in the campaign, you won't have any missions available for replay without that "hack".

Oh...haha. I guess I never used the mission simulator on a campaign with no progress before...had no idea it'd do that.  Thanks.

So yeah...now I'm seeing pretty much the same behavior as everyone else.  SDGs and Rockeyes for the loadouts in the campaign, while launching from tech room adds prometheus R and dumbfires.  That holds true for the three builds I mentioned above.

I wondered if there was a way to unlock missions via the tech room. Thank you for sharing this little gem. This will also help skip past some game breaking bugs in other campaigns too :-)
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Novachen on December 18, 2018, 05:59:15 pm
Actually i would use this hotkey only for Debug and Developing reasons, but not for playing a campaign. Especially newer ones that use features like Campaign and Player persistant variables.

If anyone encounter mission breaking bugs, i always suggest to write a bug report to the developer in the release thread or in the general support forums, because there are some users here, myself included, that fix addressed bugs via FRED2 for an error-free mission file.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Iain Baker on December 18, 2018, 06:44:08 pm
Actually i would use this hotkey only for Debug and Developing reasons, but not for playing a campaign. Especially newer ones that use features like Campaign and Player persistant variables.

If anyone encounter mission breaking bugs, i always suggest to write a bug report to the developer in the release thread or in the general support forums, because there are some users here, myself included, that fix addressed bugs via FRED2 for an error-free mission file.

Good point, fixing the problems is always better. But for those game breaking bugs which no one can figure out it could be a life saver.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on December 18, 2018, 10:42:41 pm
I wondered if there was a way to unlock missions via the tech room. Thank you for sharing this little gem. This will also help skip past some game breaking bugs in other campaigns too :-)
This won't work. Playing missions from the simulator doesn't make changes to the campaign progress, at least from what I know.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: crizza on December 21, 2018, 12:20:13 pm
Wondering about the Alheton too, but I consistently die by the explosion of the repair facitly^^
What I've seen so far looks relly promising.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on January 01, 2019, 10:58:39 pm
Okay.  The issue with the Akhetons and Rockeyes continues to perplex me.

I completely uninstalled Knossos and deleted everything from my application data and program files and even my games/fsopen/ folders.  I couldn't have started from a cleaner slate without reformatting and reinstalling windows.  In then installed Knossos and only directed it to install Mantle and its dependencies.  All my pilots were gone, naturally, so I had to make a new one.

First mission, I still only have the option of an Anubis (fair enough) and Akheton and Rockeyes.  So, let me be absolutely sure, am I supposed to have access to the HoL Prometheus in the first mission?  Or is Akheton actually the only cannon I should have access to in Mission 1?

My next step after this was to try to run the mod outside of Knossos with the old launcher, but there aren't separate links to do that.  So I doubt anyone who got it to run correctly did that.

I do make some changes to my keyboard configuration when I first make my new pilots.  I learned how to fly playing Tie Fighter, and got used to backspace being full thrust and backslash zero thrust.  So I always switch those around.  And I make some other changes here and there for my joystick for banking and targeting.  Any chance any of those changes are upsetting things?
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on January 02, 2019, 09:41:16 am
1. Judging by the sheer amount of people who reported this bug, this seems to be a problem in the mod itself, somehow.
2. Don't you also have the access to Tempests and the Prometheus R?
3. You can just tear out the mod folder from Freespace Open -> FS2 and insert it as a mod folder to the old manual installation of FSO. You will need to either create a mod.ini or use -mod flag under "Custom flags" to make FSO use Mantle, BPC and MediaVPs (you need to copy these over too).
4. Negative. This bug seems unrelated to key bindings.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on January 02, 2019, 10:10:03 am
1) Yes, but a lot of people were able to play through to the end. How???
2) No, I do not have Prometheus R or Tempests as options on Mission 1. I can get to the loadout screen but my only options are the Akheton, which I’m already loaded with, and the Rockeye, which I was not. My initial secondary loadout is empty.
3) I’ll try that when I get a chance later today.
4) I figured it was a long shot, but worth mentioning.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on January 02, 2019, 10:24:39 am
Okay, now that's interesting... Which version of Mantle are you running? Maybe Kestrellius did actually change something in updates? Also, maybe using a different build (i.e. 3.8.0-3 vs latest nightlies) changes something?

Eventually, you can toggle your and only your own primaries and secondaries with cheats, if you want. It might be just to "help yourself" pass a mission and then the next one will have more sensible loadouts?
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on January 02, 2019, 12:44:29 pm
Well, I removed the retail, non-HoL variants of the Prom R and Tempest and so on when I released 1.0.2 a little while back. Is that what you mean?

But yeah, the Akheton thing is definitely a bug.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on January 02, 2019, 01:53:19 pm
I'm running Mantle 1.0.2.  I hadn't changed any of my FSO settings for fear that was where I went wrong before.  Looking at it closer, it is still using FSO 3.8.0-3.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: CapellaGoBoom on March 24, 2019, 05:04:06 pm
Giving this a bump...any progress on bugfixes yet?
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Iain Baker on March 24, 2019, 05:58:20 pm
1) Yes, but a lot of people were able to play through to the end. How???
2) No, I do not have Prometheus R or Tempests as options on Mission 1. I can get to the loadout screen but my only options are the Akheton, which I’m already loaded with, and the Rockeye, which I was not. My initial secondary loadout is empty.
3) I’ll try that when I get a chance later today.
4) I figured it was a long shot, but worth mentioning.

If I had to guess I would suggest the people who were able to play it through to the end were using the 'unlock all missions' cheat in the techroom mission simulator, and then playing each one in turn. This will give you the proper weapon options.

NB - to unlock all the mission in the tech room mission simulator you will first need to be in the tech room mission simulator menu then press Shift+S (or possibly ctrl+S or Alt+S - sorry, I cant recall of the top of my head) This will unlock them all.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on March 25, 2019, 11:21:36 am
I'm pretty sure I did play through it normally, albeit the weapon selection was a bit annoying.

@Kestrellius: Maybe try porting this mod to become independent of BPC (and relying only on MediaVPs)? Maybe it's just some stupid conflict with BP tables and stuff.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MrNerdHair on April 06, 2019, 09:01:10 pm
Think I've got it: the special "#HoL" versions of weapons (and the HL-8) don't appear on the "+Starting Weapons:" line of Mantle.fc2, hence them not showing up in the campaign even though they work fine otherwise. (You'll need to restart the campaign to make the fix take effect, though.)

Edit: Uploaded zip with fixed files. Should handle the "this mod has generated $N errors" stuff too.

Edit 2: So I just realized that Kestrellius already figured this out like a page ago. I am running 1.0.2, though, so it seems that there's still some weirdness with that upload.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on April 06, 2019, 10:40:01 pm
Thank you so much!! I will definitely give this a try as soon as I have an opportunity.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MrNerdHair on April 07, 2019, 01:44:07 am
Ok, so now that I've had a chance to finish the campaign without the loadout issues, I just want to say that that was some amazing writing and characterization there. Use of the BP soundtracks helped a lot in building atmosphere and emotion, which I've always thought was one of its a singular strong points. Also, the rapid-fire turrets and BP AI profiles really help turn the final few battles into works of art, and I can't believe I've never tried loading a Sekhmet with all Harpoons before, that was a lot of fun.

I did have a few issues, though; the all-Akheton loadout was the biggest, though I didn't realize it was a bug during the first mission and thought it really made for a unique challenge. There were also some occasions on which ship or subsys guardian would have been advised, like when I (actually pretty easily)
Spoiler:
disarmed the Orion in the jump corridor before it opened its broadside
and got to sit there for a minute or two before noticing it had borked. (I'd also recommend subsys-guardianing the player's weapons/sensor/engine systems on missions where support is disallowed, and comms on all missions because the dialogue is so important to the story.) Also, on a later mission, I got the order to retreat before I'd finished
Spoiler:
offing my traitorous wingmen
, which made some of the later dialogue a bit weird.

So, when's the sequel coming out? I want to talk with this Adabraxis Clade fellow myself. Story suggestion:
Spoiler:
Given that you're using the BP mod anyhow, why not borrow a bit of their story and make Father Runihara a Nagari-sensitive who's been picking up Shivan transmissions? He wouldn't have to be a full-blown Laporte-style agent, but a few hallucinations would go a long way to explaining his "prophet" status and why he was free of the sort of qualms many other HoL faithful had about firing on the Shivans.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: CapellaGoBoom on April 17, 2019, 10:41:18 pm
Think I've got it: the special "#HoL" versions of weapons (and the HL-8) don't appear on the "+Starting Weapons:" line of Mantle.fc2, hence them not showing up in the campaign even though they work fine otherwise. (You'll need to restart the campaign to make the fix take effect, though.)

Edit: Uploaded zip with fixed files. Should handle the "this mod has generated $N errors" stuff too.

Edit 2: So I just realized that Kestrellius already figured this out like a page ago. I am running 1.0.2, though, so it seems that there's still some weirdness with that upload.

When will the fix hit knossos?
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on April 23, 2019, 11:23:50 am
@MrNerdHair:
Stupid question I’m sure, but where do I put that data folder? Knossos has resources scattered all over the place and I’m not sure where to stick this fix.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: 0rph3u5 on April 23, 2019, 04:05:07 pm
@MrNerdHair:
Stupid question I’m sure, but where do I put that data folder? Knossos has resources scattered all over the place and I’m not sure where to stick this fix.

{Knossos FS 2 folder}\Mantle-1.0.2

Knossos keeps stuff nice and tidy, but its also encodes the entire mod as .vp-files.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on April 26, 2019, 10:42:51 am
Well, I’ve tried that, and reset the campaign, and I still only have Akhetons and Rockeyes available on the first mission.

I don’t get it. What could be wrong with my installation to cause something like this??
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Nightmare on April 26, 2019, 01:54:20 pm
Campaign file:
Code: [Select]
+Starting Weapons: ( "Mekhu HL-7"  "Akheton SDG"  "Prometheus R"  "Rockeye"  "Tempest"  "Hornet"  "Harpoon"  "Stiletto II"  "Cyclops"  "Cyclops#short" )
Mission 1:
Code: [Select]
+Weaponry Pool: (
"Akheton SDG" 100
"Prometheus R#HoL" 40
"Rockeye" 260
"Tempest#HoL" 5760
)

The #HoL stuff is missing in the campaign file.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Darius on April 26, 2019, 02:38:19 pm
If it helps, it took me a long time to realise that saving a campaign file in the FRED campaign editor saves a copy in the Appdata, rather than the one in the mod folder.
Try manually adding the weapon into the campaign file in notepad, or else Save As... in the campaign editor.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on April 26, 2019, 09:19:25 pm
Campaign file:
Code: [Select]
+Starting Weapons: ( "Mekhu HL-7"  "Akheton SDG"  "Prometheus R"  "Rockeye"  "Tempest"  "Hornet"  "Harpoon"  "Stiletto II"  "Cyclops"  "Cyclops#short" )
Mission 1:
Code: [Select]
+Weaponry Pool: (
"Akheton SDG" 100
"Prometheus R#HoL" 40
"Rockeye" 260
"Tempest#HoL" 5760
)

The #HoL stuff is missing in the campaign file.

Yes, I believe that was what MrNerdHair's attachment was supposed to fix by using tables to be placed in the Data folder.  For some reason I couldn't get that fix to take.

I am far from adept at .VP editing, but I took a stab at putting the weapon descriptions you provided into the campaign file (once I finally figured out which one that was).  For reasons that continue to escape me, I still only have Akhetons and Rockeyes in the first mission.

I've given up for the time being and am going to play through the Tech Room with Ctrl-Shift-S instead of playing the campaign properly.  For whatever reason, the HOL Prometheus shows up in the first mission in the Tech Room.  It's just a bit of an immersion killer is all.  And this campaign seems to be all about immersion.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: 0rph3u5 on April 27, 2019, 03:20:42 am
Replaying a mission in the Simulator follows different rules than playing it as part of the campaign (e.g. playing a red alert mission will give you the default loadout).

Also, check Appdata as Darius suggested - the same thing happened to me; a campaign file was backed up along the pilot data, propably to ensure that pilot data doesn't get corrupted
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on April 27, 2019, 11:13:22 pm
Hey, guys. Sorry I haven't been keeping up.

So, according to Orph3u5's advice, I just now looked at the campaign file in Notepad++, and it looks like that was what was broken? I did not realize that the campaign editor was that nonfunctional. Anyway, I'm uploading 1.0.3 now. We'll see in a few minutes if that fixed it.

I'm really glad to see people are still enjoying this! It warms my heart.  :)

I will say that my plans to continue this have mostly gone by the wayside. I do still want to release an update that removes the BP dependency, fixes some more issues, maybe modifies the early missions since they aren't exactly great, and implements more specific music -- but other than that...

Well, I had a plan for where I wanted the story to go after this, but it doesn't really interest me much anymore -- and I'm not sure it would interest anyone else, either. I think the compelling part of this story was the HoL fighting to survive and struggling to reconcile their beliefs with that need, and I think I pretty much exhausted that idea in the release. The rest of the story, as planned, was mostly about other stuff.

I think I might make another post in the near future talking some about the story, and maybe put a summary of where I'd planned to take the story in spoilers, so I can see if others concur with my assessment that it wasn't all that interesting.

Regardless, however, I have lots of other plans for campaigns, a couple of which are fairly fleshed-out (i.e., I have detailed ideas for story and missions, and have done most of the necessary work in terms of building modpacks). I can't guarantee they'll happen soon, but I do intend for them to happen.

EDIT: All right! Mantle 1.0.4 should now be working correctly. You may have to restart the campaign.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: perihelion on April 28, 2019, 05:15:23 pm
I wish I had better news, but 1.0.4 still has me starting with only Akhetons and Rockeyes in the main campaign. I’ve restarted the campaign and tried it with a brand new pilot. No dice.

I’ve no idea what is borked on my installation. This seems to be working for most people. But I’m just about done anyway playing through the tech room.  Will comment further once I’m done.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: 0rph3u5 on April 28, 2019, 08:38:41 pm
I just checked in (least I can do after stealing all those glowmaps :D ) and its looking fine on my end.

Evidence attached.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Nightmare on April 28, 2019, 08:58:22 pm
I haven't played it yet, but I will certainly do when you can get rid off the BP-dependency (that would make things much easier for me). :)

Mind sharing the thoughts you had for the side-story/sequel/whatever? Probably there are some people interested in that.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: Kestrellius on April 30, 2019, 08:41:06 am
Right. So, Mantle was envisioned as a...probably something like forty-mission-long campaign. What I released was just the first section -- it was never intended to be the complete story; I just released it the way I did because I wanted to put something out and it made for a decent stopping-point.

Now, as for what the rest of it was going to be like...

Spoiler:
The story picks up with the Apocalypse and its crew in the system designated "Eden". After a few days of regrouping, Alpha wing is sent scouting. Deeper in the system, they find a debris field -- the remains of a planet. Investigating energy signatures, they come upon another Knossos device -- heavily damaged -- and two groups of primitive alien craft engaged in battle. Fearing that the second Knossos will be destroyed, potentially trapping them in-system, Amenophis orders the alien ships wiped out.

They report back, and Runihara sends out some more scouting missions to capture one of the alien craft so they can gather data. It turns out that the aliens are a species of quadrupedal reptiles who live in the debris field -- it used to be their homeworld, but it was destroyed hundreds of years ago during a huge conflict. The two warring factions are still carrying on their battle in the ruins.

The aliens are quite technologically backward compared to Terrans and Vasudans. They have no subspace capability, no shields, no energy weapons -- just rocket engines and mass drivers, basically. Runihara announces that these aliens must be blasphemers, and that the Shivans brought the Apocalypse here to destroy them.

The HoL launch an extermination campaign against the hapless aliens. It goes very easily, even after the two alien factions stop fighting and join forces. The only hiccup for the HoL occurs when the aliens manage to ambush and capture the Witness (that's the Bes-class freighter). Regardless, the Apocalypse wipes out the last of the alien habitats, secures the Knossos, and jumps through.

A tiny number of the aliens evaded detection, however, and they launch a strike against the Apocalypse in subspace using a light carrier rigged up with the Witness's subspace drive. But the HoL kill them anyway.

So the Apocalypse makes it back out into the next system, which, surprise surprise, is full of more Shivans. Including the same Lucifer that was chasing them before! So basically, the Eden system was this inaccessible island with only two nodes out, both of which were blocked by nonfunctional Knossos gates. But outside of it, everything is interconnected.

Anyway, they fight the Shivans some more. They start capturing and retrofitting Shivan fighters to replace their own destroyed craft -- then Shivan cruisers, then corvettes. Eventually they actually manage to attack and disable the Redeemer (the Lucifer-class), and then they gut the thing and stick its shields and armor and beams onto the Apocalypse.

They dick around with the Shivans some more, and go through a couple more systems. They run into some Sathanases, run away from them, and -- having hastily jumped through a subspace node -- they find themselves in the outer reaches of the Sol system, with the Shivans nowhere to be found.

Naturally, the HoL proceeds to murder everyone in sight. This goes on for a while. Amenophis starts to lose faith a bit. Maybe Dakarai dies or something? I dunno. Anyway, the Apocalypse blows up everything and then glasses Earth. This is basically the final combat mission.

Then -- well, I didn't have this planned out all that specifically, but the idea is that the player is meant to think the HoL are obviously delusional, and that they're spinning this whole grand tale about how the Shivans are shepherding them around when clearly they're just trying to kill the HoL like they try to kill everyone. Somehow or another, this idea would be driven home in the aftermath of Earth's destruction -- maybe with Amenophis renouncing the HoL.

Then a huge armada of Sathanas juggernauts shows up out of nowhere and starts talking to them, telling them that they've passed the test and the Shivans are going to take them into their fold.

So the campaign could have ended there, with a huge orgy of destruction followed by a stupid twist. There's another idea I came up with, though, in an attempt to make the whole thing at least somewhat thematically cohesive...at the cost of being an even stupider twist than the last one. In that version most of the same events would happen, but spooky stuff would start showing up during the last combat mission. You'd finish the mission, but then you'd somehow be unavoidably killed, and the mission would reset -- but the characters would remember the first attempt. This would happen a few times, and the whole thing would be really surreal. And then eventually the Shivans would show up and start talking.

The Shivans would reveal that things aren't quite as they seem. See, during the second-to-last mission of the released section -- the one where you're escorting the Apocalypse to the node while all the bombers ever are trying to kill you -- the Shivans had actually jumped all their capital ships in at close range and disabled the Apocalypse, along with all the fighters and other ships. Then they captured all the HoL pilots and crew, brought them aboard the Lucifer-class, and stuck them in a simulation where they basically let the HoL do everything they wanted to do, in an attempt to show them how empty and pointless it was. It didn't take at first, but they've been in the simulator for years -- running through the same series of events, over and over.

See, the Shivans in general have the goal of destroying all life, albeit in a somewhat roundabout way -- but the ones in Gethsemane are a breakaway faction, who no longer share the values of their brethren. They've decided to recruit the Hammer of Light (for some reason) as a guerilla force to use against the main Shivan faction, and did all that stuff with the simulation in order to teach them what they should value.

The HoL finally comes around and accepts the offer, probably. Except Runihara, I guess. He probably dies somehow. Also maybe there were some people who died during the later parts of the campaign but are actually alive because it was a simulation? Or vice versa? I dunno.

---------------------------------------------------------

So that's what it was going to be like. You can probably see why I'm not super invested in finishing the campaign: it never really goes anywhere. All the stuff with the warring aliens, and then the HoL starting to use Shivan tech, is obviously about the HoL symbolically becoming the Shivans -- taking up the mantle, if you will. But I struggled to fit that into any kind of larger thematic framework. After all, the HoL becoming Shivans is a fine idea, but it's pretty one-note -- that alone isn't enough to sustain a whole campaign, not without some kind of punchline to it.

The whole destroying-Earth thing was conceived as a sort of black-comedy type deal -- "those wacky doomsday cultists"! But that didn't fit the tone of the story all that well, and over time I kept trying to figure out how to give it some kind of actual meaning. I didn't really want the story to just be "the HoL get really good at killing and kill a whole bunch of people, the end". But the best I could come up with was that nonsense about rebel Shivans teaching them the meaning of friendship by showing them how unfulfilling simulated genocide was.

Oh, and I was also sort of wanting to incorporate this into my larger ideas for the FS universe, which don't involve Earth getting suddenly glassed by random Hammer of Light lunatics from nowhere. That was part of the reason for the simulation thing.

Anyway. Maybe there'll be some interesting discussion of this. I think the alien arc was a pretty solid concept -- a reenactment of FS1 with the HoL as the Lucifer fleet. I had plans for what ships I was going to use, too. And the whole "stealing all the Shivans' stuff and retrofitting it" bit would have been fun from a gameplay perspective -- getting cool new loot is something I really enjoy in FS campaigns. But I don't know if I could have spun it all together into a satisfying story, so I think maybe it's best Mantle stays where it is.

Oh, and clearing up one quick thing: I'm not sure if I made it clear in the campaign itself or not (well, obviously I didn't make it clear enough), but Abdaraxus Clade isn't a person. It's a small group of Vasudan engineering savants that serve aboard the Apocalypse. The idea is that some Vasudans innately have these bursts of crazy high-level skill in certain areas, and so you get stuff where a Vasudan will go into an engineering trance and then end up with some awesome new piece of technology, or an unreasonably quick repair job. I thought it was a cool idea, and also a good way to handwave how easily the Apocalypse seems to deal with technology and logistics.

I was even thinking of trying to incorporate it into gameplay -- have Amenophis be a battle savant, who could do this bullet-time thing. I didn't get very far trying to implement it, though.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: General Battuta on April 30, 2019, 11:08:14 am
Wow, that’s wild. Sounds like it could’ve been a real mind****.
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: MitoPL on May 01, 2019, 05:31:23 am
While I can mostly agree with your assessment of the plot (although it would definitely be really interesting if it happened to get released someday), I think that if someone happened to give you some kind of a good idea on how to get rid of the shortcomings of your rough draft... Maybe most of it could be salvageable.

Also, going wild is a cool thing too!
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: 0rph3u5 on May 08, 2019, 08:58:21 am
So, I am at the Mission 13/14 now. I will complete my review once that is done, but because that mission is hard for a number of reasons I wanted to drop a perliminary, esspecially because there are a number of things I noticed, I remember getting advice on with my first campaigns too.

Technical issues:
- I got 13 errors on start up; none of it is gamebreaking, some of it appears to come from BP-dependency as it references bp-wep.tbm. Other stuff is poor table clean-up, e.g. there is reference to the ML-16 in there.
- The mission briefings appear to not change camera after the initial stage, meaning all the icons are not displayed. (I just checked with the first mission to confirm, all of the stage are set to the same camera orientation/position.)

Technical suggestions:
- While the BP HUD config somewhat mitigates the absence of voice acting by the prominent placement of the message box, allow me nonetheless to suggest that you use signal "voice" files. - The FREDdocs come with a basic message beep that everyone uses (msgstart.wav).
- Also, I would like to suggest as well as that you expand the ship-guardian of your story wingmen to their engines and weapons, similar to how you do it with player comms and sensors.

Gameplay suggestion/issue:
- In some missions, e.g. Mission 2 or Mission 5, it appears that you are a bit too reliant on the dynamic AI, which causes ships that are escorting other ships to not respond to your presence until they or their charge are shot at.
- In some missions, e.g. Mission 2 and Mission 13, I am not sure how balancing curve is supposed to look like. I am as guilty as the next guy of the "f* it, I am doing waves"-approach but I think going back and splitting up wings might give you a better means to escalate/deescalate mission difficulty. (EDIT: re Mission 13, okay I got the balancing curve - it's not really elegant. The comment stands)

Narrative question:
What's your pool of references for the Abdaraxus Clade/Hammer of Light? (Not having read the spoiler tagged-section yet, so I don't know if it is intentional that the portrail feels a bit tightly bound to a specific set of religious teachings and practices)



Quote
have Amenophis be a battle savant, who could do this bullet-time thing. I didn't get very far trying to implement it, though.

Might I suggest that you check out Vidmaster's Dark Children (https://wiki.hard-light.net/index.php/Dark_Children) for TBP? - He did make a bullet-time thing back 2008 before we had fancy scripting; I don't remember how he did though but the tech is there.



EDIT: On Mission 14, have you tried setting "Hulk 2" to kamikaze instead having it self-destruct?
Title: Re: Release: Mantle 1.0.0
Post by: 0rph3u5 on May 08, 2019, 02:29:56 pm
(double post sry)

... and now for the conclusion:

Gameplay notes on Mission 13 and 14:
Spoiler:
Mission 13 could really benefit from a less swarmy approach to both sides, simply so that you don't get as many "run-away gap"-scenarios, where the difference between the player's forces combined power and the enemy forces combined power suddenly widens. Yes, these are the final mission and both sides put everything on the line but if you can sell that without getting yourself into mechanical trouble that's enough.

Mission 14 plays considerably better once battle moves away from the Knossos, however the fighters you do not command never actually do that - with the bombers you can actually help youself a bit because you can order them guard the Revelation or the Apocalypse.



The campaign as is very much a gem in need of polish - both in terms of balancing and narrative. But I encourage you to keep going, there is start of promising style here.

On the balancing side, I already pointed out a few things - and maybe looking at more in-depth at how other campaigns do their balancing, will provide more context.

In terms of narrative, I think you are working with a quite limited toolset here. You are probably going to benefit a lot from trying to expand your pool of references when it comes to the protrail of the Hammer of Light.
Spoiler:
If you want to do an Apotheosis-story, maybe use the Labours of Hercules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labours_of_Hercules) as foil. It's not unprecedented to interpred the contents of labour as "the perfection of man" in reinissance and neo-classical reworkings... or maybe take some of the Dionysus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus)-mythology for inspiriation... just a thought