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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: darkdaej on August 22, 2019, 11:09:56 am

Title: Most despised canon mission
Post by: darkdaej on August 22, 2019, 11:09:56 am
Wanted to know which mission you people hate the most when running through the FS1/FS2 main campaigns.

In my case, for FS1, it's "The Hammer and the Anvil"  Last mission without shields, forcing you to dogfight for 10 minutes without adequate support (2 wings of 3 fighters to cover 3 transports is just cruel management).  Oh sure if you're smart you can get Rho 1 to come back you up once the Andromeda jumps in, but it's not enough.  So you end up doing the mission pretty well, but you take some damage, obviously...and just before the mission ends, one of your wingmates or a shivan fighter rams into you and kills you so you have to redo the whole mission over again...URRGH! 

this whole mission is stupid, 3 transports with paper-thin armor carrying the most important cargo ever...defended by 6 fighters.  I'd have had the cargo on a damn Orion and had IT escorted by 6-7 cruisers and 4-5 entire fighter squadrons...

As for FS2:  Proving Grounds.  Basically trying to defend the Oberon is pointless, Delta wing will just stand in place and fire at it even if you empty everything you have on them.  It's actually easier to have the cruiser survive by just sitting there and waiting (even though you'll fail the bonus objective because it takes too much damage)  And then there's that damn Moloch the Aquitaine can't be bothered to fire at even if you stay close to it (which is nigh on impossible at Hard/Insane because of those damn bombers attacking the OTHER side of the ship and the thing flakking and beaming you to death in seconds).  That damned Order of Galatea medal is the one I have the hardest time getting in the whole game...and it shouldn't.

Being told in the recommendations to stay close to the Tiamat is a slap in the face I don't need.  This mission has crap design and  :v-old: just tells you to "git gud"

not to mention the Aquitaine should be able to scramble fighters to help you out but noooooooo...gameplay reasons
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Colt on August 22, 2019, 12:02:02 pm
While I haven't played enough FS1 to formulate an opinion there, FS2 has a couple that make me just sigh when I get to them.

-A Game of TAG:
This is the big one for me. The first part is fun; Ulysses is a joy to fly and we get a generous amount of TAG missiles. However when something like 15 Shivan fighters jump in later I get absolutely swarmed. That mission forever ingrained the missile alert sound into my brain as I try desperately to land a TAG hit (I'm not very liberal with my weapon usage; those TAGs HAVE to hit. Can't blame anyone but myself there  :rolleyes:).

-Argonautica:
Basically the second half of Proving Grounds repeated. Sure, this time the Aquitaine's disabled, but that's about it. Feels like the Shivans keep half their Molochs in reserve just for that destroyer.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: 0rph3u5 on August 22, 2019, 01:06:48 pm
-A Game of TAG:
This is the big one for me. The first part is fun; Ulysses is a joy to fly and we get a generous amount of TAG missiles. However when something like 15 Shivan fighters jump in later I get absolutely swarmed. That mission forever ingrained the missile alert sound into my brain as I try desperately to land a TAG hit (I'm not very liberal with my weapon usage; those TAGs HAVE to hit. Can't blame anyone but myself there  :rolleyes:).

While I like A Game of TAG from a narrative point of view (it really illustrates who much the Nebula is enemy territory and there is no changing that) on the gameplay-side I will second this wholeheartely - I know it is to get people to use the TAG missiles and tutorial them, but there are a better ways to do that locking the load-out.



As far as FS1 is concerned: Evangelist

Slaying Ravana at least had a difficult target due to the FS2 armaments, but the attack on the Eva just is no challenge. On top of that, unlike Clash of the Titans the mission fails to utilize the Demon-class design in a meaningful way. I know it is the triumph that supposed to be snatched away by the Lucifer's attack on the Galatea, but the mission just doesn't plays like challenge that has been overcome but like a chore that has been completed.



Bonus Round - because its still canon:

Secrets Revealed (Silent Threat)

Does this need an explaination? - Silent Threat is full of rushed missions that aren't winning any awards, but Secrets Revealed takes the cake by toping off an unfocussed story by stuffing a lot into a single mission, with no regard for anything other than "getting it done". Not to mention, if you thought fighting in the Hades at the end ST:R is long, this version of the fight is longer and worse.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Novachen on August 22, 2019, 01:33:24 pm
FreeSpace 2:
High Noon
Unfortunately a very boring and anti-climatic mission. Kill two beams without any pressure... okay, you have two shivan wings that protect it, but these are not a real challenge at all.

Their finest Hour
For obvious reasons because of all the fredding errors and missing events like the deactivation of the Colossus from the Ravana in the first place etc.

Clash of the Titans II
Well, you can not use such name for this mission... there is only one Titan... and no clash at all, because a Demon/Ravana is missing.


FreeSpace: Silent Threat
Secret Recovery
Well... you are ordered to steal a Faustus right beyond the nose of a Typhon... have to kill this destroyer all by yourself in a mere fighter. Congratulations. I think some bombers would have make much sense...

Field of Destruction
This mission does not make much sense, how it is played, because the Faustus and Sentry Guns are getting destroyed in no time by the Shivans... so you are escorting ships right into shivan controlled space to leave them there. You are playing Aken Bosch indeed :rolleyes:


FreeSpace: The Great War
La Routa della Fortuna
Well, the actual mission is fine. But the Command Briefing is a complete mess in terms of chronology, because it mistake Systems with each other that even made the fixing process during my translation any easier.

The Hammer and the Anvil
Well, mostly because of chronology reasons again... i mean, escort fighters are jumping through the jump node here, what is not even possible until late in the game. So the whole HoL infiltration process in this mission is totally pointless... because it has to be happen on the other side of the node, so out of reach for the player.

Evagelist
I agree.. actually this mission is FS1's High Noon, it has the same problems.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 22, 2019, 01:40:51 pm
I think High Noon was somewhat near the maximum of technical capabilities back then.

ST probably as a whole.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: 0rph3u5 on August 22, 2019, 02:44:44 pm
FreeSpace 2:
High Noon
Unfortunately a very boring and anti-climatic mission. Kill two beams without any pressure... okay, you have two shivan wings that protect it, but these are not a real challenge at all.

I think the original voice performances elevates it and so does it placement in the story. Granted when I first played the mission with german VA I had the very same reaction - mostly because the during the localisation process they forgot what purpose the popmous, and here strained tone of voice for the Colossus' talking head actually serves for the story (i.e. the Colossus being a boondoggle with no value against the Shivans).

Quote
Clash of the Titans II
Well, you can not use such name for this mission... there is only one Titan... and no clash at all, because a Demon/Ravana is missing.

Actually, I have the opposite reaction - yes, a direct adversary to the Bastion is absent from the mission, but there need to throw an "in-person" threat at this junction of the FS2 campaign anymore; actually having it would have detrimental to the story telling at this juncture as it would have distracted from the larger point of the Shivans being about to "smash the board". Even without it the mission is the same desperate push past the Shivans that original was meant to be.

And of course, you can always have collective of Shivan attackers be a singular "titan" ... yk like this (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Leviathan_by_Thomas_Hobbes.jpg)
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: darkdaej on August 22, 2019, 03:22:07 pm

Bonus Round - because its still canon:

Secrets Revealed (Silent Threat)

The ST final mission?  Oh goodness yes it sucks.  "Oh, sure, here's a bomber escort mission.  Blow up a space station, no biggie... Oh, your wingmates are pretty much all gone and NOW there's the frickin Hades to destroy?  Yep, here's one wing of Ursas that get spaced within 60 seconds.  Deal with it in your Herc...

Urrgggh!!!
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 22, 2019, 03:24:54 pm
Well FS1 didn't knew what to do with "huge" flags so you could kill it with ML16. Sadly it didn't knew what x64 speed meant either.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: FrikgFeek on August 22, 2019, 03:58:30 pm
FS1:
First Strike
Disabling the Cain is simple enough, but then you have to fight off 7 waves of scorpions and Basilisks while command dicks around with freighters. And you're in an Athena which is pretty bad at dogfighting.

Exodus:
Too tedious. It's just the exact same wings coming from the exact same spot over and over for 20 minutes and then you get to kill some cruisers in the end.

FS2:

The Roman's Blunder:
Fight off a ton of Lokis(which have better turn times than the Perseus along with slightly better shields and equal health) in a Myrmidon, a big, fat, and sluggish piece of ****.

Slaying Ravana:
Your escort wing just gets blown away almost immediately and then you have to deal with infinite waves of fighters in your crappy bomber while you occasionally launch some bombs at the Ravana. You can cheese it by flying into certain gaps in the geometry but then you're just sitting there launching bombs and spamming rearm until the Ravana is dead.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 22, 2019, 05:27:37 pm
I disliked A Failure to communicate. The Shaitans firing not interceptable warheads a at some Faustus. :o
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: FrikgFeek on August 22, 2019, 10:59:08 pm
You can tank the damage with your fighter if you're feeling brave, the shield damage of the tsnunami#shivan or whatever is very low. Not that it'll change the outcome of the mission.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 23, 2019, 01:41:48 am
[Robovoice] WELCOME TO TSM etc etc [Robovoice/]
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on August 23, 2019, 04:11:48 am
I've only played through FS1 a couple of times, so nothing stands out, and the original ST bugged half-way through so I never finished it.

As for FS2, let's see what stands out (note: most of my playthrough are on insane, so that colors my experience a bit) :
- The Romans Blunder : It's well known that FS2's early missions are among the most difficult when crancking up the difficulty, this one has the first obvious difficulty spike, as you are forced to battle a superior force of more agile crafts while your wingmen get whacked around by AAA beams from the Fenris & Leviathan.

- Slaying Ravana : Probably the biggest "Insane" difficulty spike, flying heavy bombers with not escort is possibly the most unfun, difficult and frustrating mission in the game in my opinion.

- A Game of TAG : Another mission that feels much worse on higher difficulties. I think it could have remained quite fun if they didn't slave ALL of the corvette's guns to TAGs. Overall, I think :v-old:'s implementation of TAG missiles is rather underwhelming.

- Proving Grounds/Argonautica : These two kinda ex-aequo in terms of badness. Argonautica is lengthier and a blatant filler mission, and features a friendly Aeolus, which is always good. Proving Grounds is more of a missed opportunity with the stealth fighters, as you never do anything worthwhile with them afterwards beyond scanning the Sathanas, and flying them would have made PG a bit more interesting.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Assassin714 on August 23, 2019, 04:45:46 am
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Playing Judas from FS1. Fly into the Lucifer's docking bay...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: 0rph3u5 on August 23, 2019, 05:06:08 am
Quote
- Proving Grounds/Argonautica : These two kinda ex-aequo in terms of badness. Argonautica is lengthier and a blatant filler mission, and features a friendly Aeolus, which is always good. Proving Grounds is more of a missed opportunity with the stealth fighters, as you never do anything worthwhile with them afterwards beyond scanning the Sathanas, and flying them would have made PG a bit more interesting.

The stealth fighters non utilized falls under the same category as FS2's elastic timeframe and turning capshipt into sound-and-fury-machines artistically - it's to illustrate that all these things mean nothing as far as ending of the story is concerned. Bigger or smarter, guns & ships and ship & guns are not saving you from the shivans; failure to understand that leads disaster.

At least that it in FS2 campaign - fan campaign can re-state that however they like.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 23, 2019, 05:27:26 am
- A Game of TAG : Another mission that feels much worse on higher difficulties. I think it could have remained quite fun if they didn't slave ALL of the corvette's guns to TAGs. Overall, I think :v-old:'s implementation of TAG missiles is rather underwhelming.

Proper implementation of TAG weapons can be quite overwhelming though, and probably requires New features that aren't even present in FSO yet.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 23, 2019, 09:00:24 am
- A Game of TAG : Another mission that feels much worse on higher difficulties. I think it could have remained quite fun if they didn't slave ALL of the corvette's guns to TAGs. Overall, I think :v-old:'s implementation of TAG missiles is rather underwhelming.

Proper implementation of TAG weapons can be quite overwhelming though, and probably requires New features that aren't even present in FSO yet.

Not at all, it's pretty trivial. FS Blue has TAG support available on a lot of missions and it doesn't require every turret on a ship to be slaved to the TAG.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: darkdaej on August 23, 2019, 09:48:00 am
- A Game of TAG : Another mission that feels much worse on higher difficulties. I think it could have remained quite fun if they didn't slave ALL of the corvette's guns to TAGs. Overall, I think :v-old:'s implementation of TAG missiles is rather underwhelming.

Proper implementation of TAG weapons can be quite overwhelming though, and probably requires New features that aren't even present in FSO yet.

Not at all, it's pretty trivial. FS Blue has TAG support available on a lot of missions and it doesn't require every turret on a ship to be slaved to the TAG.

I concur - I just finished FS Blue for the first time couple days ago and I did notice the TAG was far more efficient.

But the Warspite still refused to fire anything without TAG support.

EDIT: Great job with the fixes - I heard quite a bit of dialogue you never get to hear normally because of insta-kills that you managed to delay through your FREDDing magic :P



Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: 0rph3u5 on August 23, 2019, 11:59:37 am
Follow-up to this (I am not going to edit it in because the discussion moved along)

The stealth fighters non utilized falls under the same category as FS2's elastic timeframe and turning capshipt into sound-and-fury-machines artistically - it's to illustrate that all these things mean nothing as far as ending of the story is concerned. Bigger or smarter, guns & ships and ship & guns are not saving you from the shivans; failure to understand that leads disaster.

To understand this point, it might be important to look at FS2 as processing then contemporary (read 1998/99) views on then-current/recent UN peacekeeping mission and their efficacy (e.g. Somalia, Rwanda) as well as the NATO military actions in the Kosovo War.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 23, 2019, 12:09:15 pm
Follow-up to this (I am not going to edit it in because the discussion moved along)

The stealth fighters non utilized falls under the same category as FS2's elastic timeframe and turning capshipt into sound-and-fury-machines artistically - it's to illustrate that all these things mean nothing as far as ending of the story is concerned. Bigger or smarter, guns & ships and ship & guns are not saving you from the shivans; failure to understand that leads disaster.

To understand this point, it might be important to look at FS2 as processing then contemporary (read 1998/99) views on then-current/recent UN peacekeeping mission and their efficacy (e.g. Somalia, Rwanda) as well as the NATO military actions in the Kosovo War.

The breaking apart of Yugoslavia seems to be a pretty big influence on FS2.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 23, 2019, 12:22:45 pm
- A Game of TAG : Another mission that feels much worse on higher difficulties. I think it could have remained quite fun if they didn't slave ALL of the corvette's guns to TAGs. Overall, I think :v-old:'s implementation of TAG missiles is rather underwhelming.

Proper implementation of TAG weapons can be quite overwhelming though, and probably requires New features that aren't even present in FSO yet.

Not at all, it's pretty trivial. FS Blue has TAG support available on a lot of missions and it doesn't require every turret on a ship to be slaved to the TAG.

Last time I looked at FS Blue there was some SEXP that required the name of every single turret using AAA beams and every hostile fighter. When I saw it I felt happy that I simply specified both weapons to a single turret instead (that was when you could only have 1 beam per turret simultaneously, and result was that beams got swapped immediately and automatically without any SEXP). However that got broken quite some time ago. :(

Still other stupidities remain. For example interceptors will chase a tagged fighter with normal weapons even when the other ship is kilometers away.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 23, 2019, 05:35:51 pm
Right, so, not overwhelming and doesn't require new features not yet present in FSO.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Droid803 on August 23, 2019, 09:58:19 pm
I hate A Game of TAG.
Being forced to fly a Ulysses (super wide secondary points which alternate left/right, which wouldn't normally be a problem, except:), relying on slow-moving slow-reloading dumbfire missiles out of said fire points to accomplish anything, and the corvette being completely useless if you don't. You want to fly up real close to make sure the TAG lands on the target you want...and when it does you get killed bey friendly ULTRA-AAA beam fire. Wonderful. All to introduce a mechanic that is literally never used ever again (at least FS Blue fixed that).

But yeah it's fixable, they just chose not to...but left the mission in anyway. What purpose does it serve (other than the kappa wing thing?) nothing really, they could have just thrown that into any other nebula mission. At least stealth fighter technology comes into play in Monster in the Mist.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 23, 2019, 10:53:44 pm
Also increased the TAG velocity and made its firewait less than INFINITY so missing a shot isn't as punishing.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 24, 2019, 04:13:09 am
TAG weapons can be overwhelming powerful though. In theory every light interceptor could instakill a heavy bomber with a single missile at considerable distance.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: MitoPL on August 24, 2019, 08:42:37 am
I'd say that TAGs aren't weapons, not directly. They're tools, and very powerful ones. I just wish that :v-old: had actually used them in gameplay more often than just having the player experiment with them in a mission or two.

I personally have been annoyed not by certain missions (that too but the worst offenders have been pointed out already), but by the equipement. For me, the lack of a dedicated interceptor - something along the lines of FS1 Valkyrie - was definitely an annoying thing. I know that the Perseus is, uhm, a bit fast but I'd really sometimes prefer to have something that has got more zoom. And Horus doesn't count.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 24, 2019, 10:09:35 am
Just that using TAG weapons in retail the way it was supposed to be in "A game of TAG" was probably impossible.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 24, 2019, 10:40:57 am
They are pretty strong, but they do come with disadvantages (at least the way I implemented them). When a ship's firing on your TAG target it's not using its antifighter beams in its own defense.

I do think in the long run bomber tactics would need to change, and that in the even longer run fighters and bombers would take on a role closer to their modern antiship duties — attacking from outside a warship's defensive perimeter with standoff weapons. Beams are just too good at nullifying a fighter's defensive advantages (agility and shields). As they improve, it would become suicidal to get within their range.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: 0rph3u5 on August 24, 2019, 11:33:14 am
I do think in the long run bomber tactics would need to change, and that in the even longer run fighters and bombers would take on a role closer to their modern antiship duties — attacking from outside a warship's defensive perimeter with standoff weapons. Beams are just too good at nullifying a fighter's defensive advantages (agility and shields). As they improve, it would become suicidal to get within their range.

*mumbles something about failures of imagination*
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 24, 2019, 11:47:05 am
They are pretty strong, but they do come with disadvantages (at least the way I implemented them). When a ship's firing on your TAG target it's not using its antifighter beams in its own defense.

I do think in the long run bomber tactics would need to change, and that in the even longer run fighters and bombers would take on a role closer to their modern antiship duties — attacking from outside a warship's defensive perimeter with standoff weapons. Beams are just too good at nullifying a fighter's defensive advantages (agility and shields). As they improve, it would become suicidal to get within their range.

I thought it'd change particular fighters, as interceptors and light fighters probably wouldn't engage hostile ships themselves anymore so they could be even lighter, deliver the TAG weapons and besides that only shoot down bombs (for context, the weapon I envisioned had a range of 4 km, as it doesn't need a heavy warhead anymore, just something to get through the shield intact).

However, overall normal point defense and flak still remain against untagged stuff and bombs so having the AAA fire on certain ships shouldn't be a weak point.

I don't know how much bombers would change (unless they trigger SSM strikes like in BP) as they would be most likely directed against Shivans post-Capella.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 24, 2019, 01:06:32 pm
However, overall normal point defense and flak still remain against untagged stuff and bombs so having the AAA fire on certain ships shouldn't be a weak point.

It is. They're powerful anti-bomb weapons and when they're not doing that more bombs get through.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 24, 2019, 02:02:50 pm
Ultra AAA is pretty good at killing bombers before they can launch any nukes though.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: darkdaej on August 24, 2019, 02:15:10 pm
*mumbles something about failures of imagination*

That, or a really short development cycle.  I'm guessing the crunch time was pretty intense given FS2 came out only a year after FS1.

FS2 suffers from a lot of great ideas with poor execution.  We all love the game to death, but methinks it could have used more polish regardless :P

pretty sure the mission designers didn't coordinate their efforts as much as they should have too
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 24, 2019, 02:30:45 pm
FS2 was released ahead of the schedule IIRC.

Could you provide some samples of poor execution?
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: 0rph3u5 on August 24, 2019, 02:59:31 pm
*mumbles something about failures of imagination*

That, or a really short development cycle.  I'm guessing the crunch time was pretty intense given FS2 came out only a year after FS1.

FS2 suffers from a lot of great ideas with poor execution.  We all love the game to death, but methinks it could have used more polish regardless :P

pretty sure the mission designers didn't coordinate their efforts as much as they should have too

That's exactly not what the remark was about - you know, me being a "it is not the weapon that is important but who it aimed at and why"-person.

I find Battuta's "let's make post-capella warfare all realistic warfighty"-stick both tedious and besides the point. I already elaborated on the whole "beams and flak have symbolic meaning in the narrative beyond their gameplay dimensions of shaping battle-space and elvating cruiser+ ships from being large targets", so nothing more to say really...

EDIT: That is not to say the "realistic warfighty"-approach doesn't have it uses, but execution must meet intention: e.g. in The Scroll of Atankharzim you can have that because story is all about a new generations different approach to a similar challenge than those who came before.

EDIT2: In the spirit of "put up or shut up", here is concepts for "how military tech evolved" for this (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=95754.0) campaign sketch:
Hidden Text: Yet Another Post-Capella Campaign, Weapon Concepts by Faction • Show
Alright all factions get their evolution around a theme:

1. GTVA
The big change to the GTVA since FS2 is the deployment of the Panopticon - a wide range surveillance device that acts as an early warning system, but also gives the GTVI the blind spot anxiety that starts the story proper. To match that the GTVA would have gotten pinpoint accurate weapons, such as laser snipers, single shot AAA beams and long range anticapital beams - if possible with some sort of blind spot build into the armaments to match the theme.

2. Terran Union
The Terran Union is busy "not being the NTF" and therefor would as a statement not have evolved their military tech from FS2.

3. non-Imperial Vasudans
They are on a quest for vengence so to match the theme, the non-Imperial ships would have all gotten really good at fighting up close and personal - with HP buffs and weapons that work really well up close, extra flak, shotgun-style lasers, big "point blank range or they dispate" plasma launchers and slow, long duration slash beams.

4. Solar Federation
The Solar Federation Military can be arrogant as all hell, and wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole because you are from outside their solar system-sized gated community. They would have had a focus on range shooting, but different from the big sustained beams of the GTVA, so maybe missiles or railguns. In turn their weapons would have had a slight problem at medium range only to be better at close range because no touching allowed.

5. The Shivans
All evolutions of the Shivan tech would have been to match the Voc'quir tech, to stress that this time they are not dealing with the Terrans and Vasudans - they just happen to be there.

6. Voc'quir
I wanted the Voc'quir to be much more close combat focussed - similar to the non-Imperial Vasudans - but to add them actually boarding ships into the mix. With no ships to base this on I am/was running on empty there then.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 24, 2019, 03:51:58 pm
The one thing that bugged me about that "realistic" approach was the reliance on ECM weapons. Might be good against Terrans/Vasudans but it's a damn big maybe against Shivans which should be the main target after Capella.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 24, 2019, 05:11:37 pm
Ultra AAA is pretty good at killing bombers before they can launch any nukes though.

In FS Blue I think it's just AAAf, which is plenty powerful. And you're never going to be able to TAG everything coming your way.

I find Battuta's "let's make post-capella warfare all realistic warfighty"-stick both tedious and besides the point. I already elaborated on the whole "beams and flak have symbolic meaning in the narrative beyond their gameplay dimensions of shaping battle-space and elvating cruiser+ ships from being large targets", so nothing more to say really...

I don't know what your deal is lately, man, but I wish you would find a way to express your ideas without taking snipes. They're perfectly fine ideas, you don't need to pair them with the suggestion that I'm bad at imagining things. Especially if your showcase of 'better' imagination is Blue Planet plus apos'trophe ali'ens!
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 24, 2019, 05:14:14 pm
I spent my kids (plural) hard earned inheritance on your books, twice!  So don't fret.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 24, 2019, 05:21:27 pm
@Orpheus: Could you put your ideas into a new post instead of editing them into older ones if you want them to be read?

@Battuta: Ah OK I had a different concept in mind (with Ultra AAA), which was half-way between normal AAA and a Cap beam; perhabs in BP-terminology "overcharging"? If you know the exact location of the target it's probably more economic to destroy the target with few hits. Since (as you noted) there won't be anything TAGed simultainously you can take the (theoratical- if it was more balanced) longer recharge time without trouble.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: 0rph3u5 on August 25, 2019, 03:05:34 am
@Orpheus: Could you put your ideas into a new post instead of editing them into older ones if you want them to be read?

I will if they are of signficance and not extended postscripts restating things I somehow have the impression to have to keep saying.

you don't need to pair them with the suggestion that I'm bad at imagining things.

You just happen to be the first target I find when trying to punch up. It "helps" that your default short-cut always seems to be the emulation of reality with no regard to a layer of Superstructure.

Especially if your showcase of 'better' imagination is Blue Planet plus apos'trophe ali'ens!

I suggest you read the story again - on a thematic level it has little to do with Blue Planet (as it presents itself currently).

And if you would allow, I would submit two additional things for consideration:
a) It is something that is out there and thus a better example of that me having to make references to stuff I am still making (I find that always highly unsatisfying - as much as I want people to get excited by the stuff I am making, I am also very concious that all teasing is just setting up for failure).
b) If not obvious by the title or the preface I consider the story I referenced to be bearly worth the time spend on it; not just because I suffer from some version of Imposter Syndrome, because it's derivate in many sufrace aspects, its thematic grounding is to ridiciolous degree out-of-date (the collective shrugging reaction to the Panopticon we are living in may recieve it peridodical challenge but only so far as involves it side-show); and relies to heavily on a downer ending gimick that I can deploy better elsewhere.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: 0rph3u5 on August 25, 2019, 03:22:33 am
Especially if your showcase of 'better' imagination is Blue Planet plus apos'trophe ali'ens!

The more acurate statement BTW would be that it is FS2 feed through the lense of Five Eyes Mass Surveillance rather than the "All the world was watching"-90s view on military intervention.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: -Joshua- on August 25, 2019, 05:50:47 am
I've only played through FS1 a couple of times, so nothing stands out, and the original ST bugged half-way through so I never finished it.

As for FS2, let's see what stands out (note: most of my playthrough are on insane, so that colors my experience a bit) :
- The Romans Blunder : It's well known that FS2's early missions are among the most difficult when crancking up the difficulty, this one has the first obvious difficulty spike, as you are forced to battle a superior force of more agile crafts while your wingmen get whacked around by AAA beams from the Fenris & Leviathan.

The Romans Blunder gets a lot easier on insane once you figure out that Rockeyes do great subsystem damage, and have more range then AAA beams. Snipe the beams, and you have an easier time.

Slaying Ravana is also my least favourite mission of the FS2 campaign. In vanilla it's mainly just you lobbing missiles at a hull you can't see. It's like a throwback to Secrets Revealed! The Blue Planet remix is a lot better: More ships in play, more radio chatter, more of that sense of desperation. And the mission is shorter becuase you have more people helping you.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 25, 2019, 08:47:39 am
You just happen to be the first target I find when trying to punch up. It "helps" that your default short-cut always seems to be the emulation of reality with no regard to a layer of Superstructure.

Stop punching me!
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 25, 2019, 10:57:27 am
And (I guess inspired by IRC discussion) I think it is a little silly to accuse someone else of neglecting subtext and 'superstructure' when you haven't put any thought into finding it, and when you've even repeated some of that subtext in your own take. There is an assload of subtext in BP. Ever wonder why the Erebus is hard and angular and difficult to pin down, while the Titan is curved, supportive, and literally has a womb?
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 25, 2019, 11:08:55 am
There is an assload of subtext in BP. Ever wonder why the Erebus is hard and angular and difficult to pin down, while the Titan is curved, supportive, and literally has a womb?

Ohhhhhhhhhhh... FANSERVICE IN BP. That's something I didn't saw, really. :p
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: darkdaej on August 25, 2019, 12:05:43 pm
I've only played through FS1 a couple of times, so nothing stands out, and the original ST bugged half-way through so I never finished it.

As for FS2, let's see what stands out (note: most of my playthrough are on insane, so that colors my experience a bit) :
- The Romans Blunder : It's well known that FS2's early missions are among the most difficult when crancking up the difficulty, this one has the first obvious difficulty spike, as you are forced to battle a superior force of more agile crafts while your wingmen get whacked around by AAA beams from the Fenris & Leviathan.

The Romans Blunder gets a lot easier on insane once you figure out that Rockeyes do great subsystem damage, and have more range then AAA beams. Snipe the beams, and you have an easier time.

Slaying Ravana is also my least favourite mission of the FS2 campaign. In vanilla it's mainly just you lobbing missiles at a hull you can't see. It's like a throwback to Secrets Revealed! The Blue Planet remix is a lot better: More ships in play, more radio chatter, more of that sense of desperation. And the mission is shorter becuase you have more people helping you.

Yeah the FS Blue version is much better - and actually reflects what the briefing says. 

I never really have problems with that mission.  Just equip a bank of hornets and as soon as the mission starts target the two basilisks  then take 'em out quickly with the swarm missiles and a few primary shots.  You'll have more than enough time to lob your entire payload before the next Shivan fighter wing actually starts bothering you and your wingmates will actually get a few shots in too since the Basilisks won't be there to wipe them out no more.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: darkdaej on August 25, 2019, 12:18:35 pm
On a side note, one mission I actually love - Exodus - is also one of the most frustrating.

Because I make it a point to save the Nebtuu.

The first 40 seconds of the mission require incredibly precise actions and a bit of luck when that first Seraphim wing jumps in.

1: Target the moloch's beam turret, fire trebs at it.
2: Call in Theta Wing reinforcements
3: target each individual Nahema next to it, fire trebs at each.
4: Turn to take out the Seraphims jumping in
5: kill the 3 Seraphims before they launch bombs  because of their invulnerability preventing you from intercepting them until they hit the Nebtuu. (besides, you'll kill the Nebtuu yourself with your Kaysers if you try...)
6: Get Theta to protect the Nebtuu for the rest of the mission.
7: Wipe out the next 2 Nahema wings really fast because they also target it.

If you did all that, THEN it'll survive because  :v: didn't expect anyone to do that and no enemy will target it anymore :P

And it's obvious  :v: expected the Nebtuu to die because there isn't a bonus objective for saving it.

But I make a point to do it each time :D
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 25, 2019, 12:33:00 pm
Actually on easy the Nebtuu safes itself from time to time.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Colt on August 25, 2019, 12:33:10 pm
On a side note, one mission I actually love - Exodus - is also one of the most frustrating.

Because I make it a point to save the Nebtuu.

The first 40 seconds of the mission require incredibly precise actions and a bit of luck when that first Seraphim wing jumps in.

1: Target the moloch's beam turret, fire trebs at it.
2: Call in Theta Wing reinforcements
3: target each individual Nahema next to it, fire trebs at each.
4: Turn to take out the Seraphims jumping in
5: kill the 3 Seraphims before they launch bombs  because of their invulnerability preventing you from intercepting them until they hit the Nebtuu. (besides, you'll kill the Nebtuu yourself with your Kaysers if you try...)
6: Get Theta to protect the Nebtuu for the rest of the mission.
7: Wipe out the next 2 Nahema wings really fast because they also target it.

If you did all that, THEN it'll survive because  :v: didn't expect anyone to do that and no enemy will target it anymore :P

And it's obvious  :v: expected the Nebtuu to die because there isn't a bonus objective for saving it.

But I make a point to do it each time :D

GTVA Command can't be bothered to reward us pilots properly. Though getting the Nebtuu that far though does make the mission a bit easier though; the Gibborim gets absolutely torn apart!

On a side note; isn't it strange that the Gibborim and a fair number of Shivans (appear to) jump in from Epsilon Pegasi? Maybe a scout group returning to the main invasion force?
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 25, 2019, 12:36:17 pm
Command is running out of raw material for the medals. ;)

The Cain jumping in is one of the moments :v-old: screwed up, similar to Colly simply being slaughtered during her finest hour.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Colt on August 25, 2019, 12:45:11 pm
The Cain jumping in is one of the moments :v-old: screwed up
Oh, yeah that makes more sense. It wouldn't be the first time that happened; GTVI retrieving the NTT Sunder by sending it into Regulus comes to mind.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: darkdaej on August 25, 2019, 03:09:55 pm
The Cain jumping in is one of the moments :v-old: screwed up
Oh, yeah that makes more sense. It wouldn't be the first time that happened; GTVI retrieving the NTT Sunder by sending it into Regulus comes to mind.


What SOC isn't telling you is that the Regulus node actually has a two-way split in the subspace tunnel with one of them leading straight to Beta Aquilae :P

Because who cares about plot details, right?
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: darkdaej on August 25, 2019, 03:17:12 pm
Actually on easy the Nebtuu safes itself from time to time.

Yeah, but who among us still plays on Easy?
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Trivial Psychic on August 25, 2019, 03:28:14 pm
I always found it odd that you often find enemy and allied craft entering and exiting through the same node.  When friendly transports depart through a node, then enemy warships or fighters come out of the same node, you might think that those hostiles could have encountered your transports in the corridor and engaged them, but it seems that Command is never concerned about things like that.  Escort missions always end when a ship enters the jumpnode.  My takeaway [engage Trek-ish technobabble here] is that a hyperspace corridor contains a near infinite number of phase planes of subspace, and a particular setting in the subspace drive (call it the "resonance frequency" or something) dictates what phase plane you enter.  That way a ship can be safe once it entered hyperspace, because unless the enemy knows what phase you're entering, they can't pursue you.  Furthermore, I think that the GTA-PVN gained the technology to identify a ship's subspace resonance from the Ancients, allowing them to track the Lucifer's jump and pursue it into the same phase and engage.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Mongoose on August 25, 2019, 06:26:20 pm
Yeah, but who among us still plays on Easy?
Yo!

(Well I haven't played in a while but it was almost always on Easy.)
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 25, 2019, 06:37:43 pm
Yeah, but who among us still plays on Easy?
Yo!

(Well I haven't played in a while but it was almost always on Easy.)

I mostly play for story rather than challenge, and I hate restarting missions, so that's my choice most of the time.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Colt on August 25, 2019, 06:41:16 pm
What SOC isn't telling you is that the Regulus node actually has a two-way split in the subspace tunnel with one of them leading straight to Beta Aquilae :P

mind explodes

My takeaway [engage Trek-ish technobabble here] is that a hyperspace corridor contains a near infinite number of phase planes of subspace, and a particular setting in the subspace drive (call it the "resonance frequency" or something) dictates what phase plane you enter.  That way a ship can be safe once it entered hyperspace, because unless the enemy knows what phase you're entering, they can't pursue you.  Furthermore, I think that the GTA-PVN gained the technology to identify a ship's subspace resonance from the Ancients, allowing them to track the Lucifer's jump and pursue it into the same phase and engage.
This makes a lot of sense. I like it.  :yes:
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 25, 2019, 07:03:15 pm
Must. Steal. Trivial Psychics. Subspace Explination.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Mongoose on August 25, 2019, 07:56:59 pm
Yeah, but who among us still plays on Easy?
Yo!

(Well I haven't played in a while but it was almost always on Easy.)

I mostly play for story rather than challenge, and I hate restarting missions, so that's my choice most of the time.

There's that, and my other excuse of being super-lazy and never bothering to change it from the default difficulty. :p
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Jadehawk on August 26, 2019, 01:41:34 pm
Call me crazy, but I WISH I could have some way or helping the Colossus survive, like being in range to prevent the destruction and where at the least, it was forced to retire from the engagement.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 26, 2019, 02:08:43 pm
That would absolutely undermine the game's narrative and ending, though. The Colossus is supposed to be the incarnation of the GTVA's mistakes. It's the Yamato.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 26, 2019, 02:53:57 pm
That would absolutely undermine the game's narrative and ending, though. The Colossus is supposed to be the incarnation of the GTVA's mistakes. It's the Yamato.

Still, its end was almost ridiculous. The Colossus was disabled, dead in the water, than finally murdered by a Sath with the dialog telling you "we buy time for the Bastion" when the delay was about 30 secs and Command screaming "GET OUTTA HERE!!!" to a disabled ship.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 26, 2019, 03:06:13 pm
First time I saw it though age 17 or so...... Wow.  Thrilling  :yes:
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: General Battuta on August 26, 2019, 03:07:52 pm
That would absolutely undermine the game's narrative and ending, though. The Colossus is supposed to be the incarnation of the GTVA's mistakes. It's the Yamato.

Still, its end was almost ridiculous. The Colossus was disabled, dead in the water, than finally murdered by a Sath with the dialog telling you "we buy time for the Bastion" when the delay was about 30 secs and Command screaming "GET OUTTA HERE!!!" to a disabled ship.

I tweaked that sequence for FS Blue so more dialogue would play but really I think the original holds up pretty well. It goes out about as meaningfully as the Yamato did.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Colt on August 26, 2019, 03:17:02 pm
I kinda wish the Colossus did more in that mission. Throwing a couple of cruisers or corvettes at it before the Beast arrived would've been cool.

Oh well, as far as canon missions go I think Their Finest Hour is in the top five missions I enjoyed.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 26, 2019, 03:20:38 pm
Oh well, as far as canon missions go I think Their Finest Hour is in the top five missions I enjoyed.

I liked the mission too, from effect value alone it is also one of my favourites. But it seems that during the ending dialog neither the Colossus nor Command was entirely sure/aware whether Colly was disabled or not.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Trivial Psychic on August 26, 2019, 04:45:38 pm
Must. Steal. Trivial Psychics. Subspace Explination.
I used it in a FS fan story I was writing several years ago, but never finished.  Not that it was a critical plot point, merely that the story was a platform to promote my subspace theory when it was appropriate to the story.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 26, 2019, 05:24:52 pm
Still a good example for explinations :v-old: could/should've made if they bothered to do so. :)
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Mongoose on August 26, 2019, 06:19:43 pm
I kinda wish the Colossus did more in that mission. Throwing a couple of cruisers or corvettes at it before the Beast arrived would've been cool.

Oh well, as far as canon missions go I think Their Finest Hour is in the top five missions I enjoyed.

I think the Colossus actually has waypoints set in FRED, and I remember reading that there are some other events that never trigger. Maybe :v: couldn't get the mission balanced right and just disabled it as a rush job fix.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: darkdaej on August 26, 2019, 10:27:30 pm
That would absolutely undermine the game's narrative and ending, though. The Colossus is supposed to be the incarnation of the GTVA's mistakes. It's the Yamato.

Still, its end was almost ridiculous. The Colossus was disabled, dead in the water, than finally murdered by a Sath with the dialog telling you "we buy time for the Bastion" when the delay was about 30 secs and Command screaming "GET OUTTA HERE!!!" to a disabled ship.

I tweaked that sequence for FS Blue so more dialogue would play but really I think the original holds up pretty well. It goes out about as meaningfully as the Yamato did.

Indeed - For the first time ever I actually jumped out before the Colly gets blown up.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Nightmare on August 27, 2019, 09:39:58 am
Still I'm cursious what :v-old: had intended for Collys end.
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Trivial Psychic on August 27, 2019, 10:18:01 pm
Maybe it could do the baseball bat thing and fling the Sathanas into the Cappelean sun.  :D
Title: Re: Most despised canon mission
Post by: Colt on August 27, 2019, 11:35:36 pm
Maybe it could do the baseball bat thing and fling the Sathanas into the Cappelean sun.  :D
Found this while browsing around just now.  :lol:

(http://fc05.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/191/7/8/Bat_of_Capella_by_WMCoolmon.png)