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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: soilder198 on January 25, 2020, 10:35:24 pm

Title: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: soilder198 on January 25, 2020, 10:35:24 pm
Is humanity finally doomed? Discuss.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on January 25, 2020, 10:58:28 pm
You know what goes good with coronavirus? Lyme disease.

How precisely does it kill, anyway? If it's from something treatable, like diarrhea/dehydration, then it shouldn't be too lethal in developed areas.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on January 26, 2020, 02:03:43 am
It's not really much worse than the flu. It's just that the world already has the flu. We don't need another one.

That said it's really weird cause I'm on holiday in Lijiang (China's number one tourist destination this time of year) and they've shut down the entire old town because of two cases.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Nightmare on January 26, 2020, 03:22:54 pm
So it's all show like with the pig flu and whatever SARS-comparissions are thrown about are just show because people forget that normal flu kills people too?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on January 26, 2020, 03:47:41 pm
Not quite, SARS has made quite a number of fatalities in Spain for instance in the 80s.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: perihelion on January 26, 2020, 08:23:01 pm
My only (known) experience with coronavirus is in the feline infectious form.  For the most part, it is an annoying but harmless but that tends to give cats the runs.  Unless finds an immunocompromised host, such as one that had a previously undiagnosed case of FIV.  In that case, it doesn't get fought off effectively by the immune system, it just sticks around in the lower GI tract doing what viruses do: making bad copies of itself.  Eventually one of those bad copies happens to be a version that can cross the epithelial lining in the peritoneum.  Once the peritonitis starts, there is no way to stop it.  It is currently always fatal.  After two weeks of feeding him via a feeding tube and watching this once lively and happy creature struggling to find any way to lay down that didn't hurt...  putting him down was one of the hardest things I've ever done.

George was only 4 or 5 years old.  We'd only had him for 2 of those years.  We were looking for a hard-luck case from the local animal shelter, an older cat since those so seldom get adopted.  He was a sweet, very very affectionate boy.  He must have had the FIV that made him vulnerable when we adopted him, and some how he gave a false negative when he was tested.

As far as I know, human coronavirus has no such tendencies to mutate into something lethal that can cross into the peritoneum.  I've done a superficial search of the online literature, and I haven't found anything yet.  Feline coronavirus and human corona virus are not the same thing, they just have a lot in common.  For the most part, I expect it is just going to give people upset bowels until their immune systems fight it off.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on January 27, 2020, 01:39:01 am
For the most part, I expect it is just going to give people upset bowels until their immune systems fight it off.

It's quite a bit more serious than that though. This particular bug has an incubation period of 11 days or so and is infectious during it, meaning that people carrying it will infect others during that time. That makes it extraordinarily difficult to control the spread of the infection; if the chinese quarantine measures seem harsh, it's because anything less than that can't work.

Also, at this moment, there are around 2800 known infected people (i.e. people that actually show the symptoms), 80 of which have died. Care to guess how many more cases we'll see over the coming days, taking the above into account?

It's not the end of the world, no. After all, the disease is treatable. But to downplay its seriousness is a bad idea.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: QuakeIV on February 01, 2020, 12:29:56 am
Related handy website to track how its progressing: https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 01, 2020, 02:45:08 am
It's not really much worse than the flu. It's just that the world already has the flu. We don't need another one.

That said it's really weird cause I'm on holiday in Lijiang (China's number one tourist destination this time of year) and they've shut down the entire old town because of two cases.


I kept meaning to message you to check you're OK bud 👍
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: soilder198 on February 01, 2020, 07:04:51 pm
https://www.statnews.com/2020/01/30/who-declares-coronavirus-outbreak-a-global-health-emergency/

WHO updated its classification of the outbreak.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 02, 2020, 05:05:29 am
Has anyone read World War Z? The zombie outbreak starts in China. Coincidence? I think not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rogue Assassin04 on February 02, 2020, 12:17:56 pm
Here is a link that gives a realtime update about the outbreak

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 02, 2020, 01:55:46 pm
I've heard Lyme disease goes really well with Coeona virus  :eek2: :nervous: :eek2:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Wobble73 on February 04, 2020, 07:40:00 am
I'm on the Wirral where the British evacuees from China are being quarantined here in the UK. :nervous:

Why the Wirral? It happens to be a peninsular so easier to quarantine the whole area, and is close to the Royal Liverpool Hospital where the have wards to quarantine infected patients.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 04, 2020, 08:26:30 am
I was in Birkenhead a few weeks back at Cammel Laird 👍👍
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Wobble73 on February 04, 2020, 10:25:00 am
Aww shame, we could have gone for a pint.
 :pimp:  :yes:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on February 07, 2020, 11:11:09 pm
I'm on the Wirral where the British evacuees from China are being quarantined here in the UK. :nervous:

Why the Wirral? It happens to be a peninsular so easier to quarantine the whole area, and is close to the Royal Liverpool Hospital where the have wards to quarantine infected patients.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/07/ive-been-walking-stairs-for-exercise-life-under-coronavirus-quarantine

Sounds like a pretty **** life. I did say earlier that if it had happened in Xi'an I'd have stayed rather than be evacuated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on February 22, 2020, 03:36:48 pm
Influenza has a faster spread and higher mortality rate.  In short, don't panic about coronavirus but DO go get your damn flu shot (it's free in many countries).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on February 22, 2020, 06:42:08 pm
It's quite a bit more serious than that though. This particular bug has an incubation period of 11 days or so and is infectious during it, meaning that people carrying it will infect others during that time. That makes it extraordinarily difficult to control the spread of the infection; if the chinese quarantine measures seem harsh, it's because anything less than that can't work.

I'd say it's not the transmission or fatality that makes it scary, it's this long incubation period that makes it so easy to possibly escape containment which makes it worrying...

In other news, is anybody else playing Plague, Inc.?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on February 22, 2020, 07:52:16 pm
https://nextshark.com/plague-inc-increase-sales-amid-coronavirus/

All of China apparently.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 23, 2020, 05:56:05 pm
It's quite a bit more serious than that though. This particular bug has an incubation period of 11 days or so and is infectious during it, meaning that people carrying it will infect others during that time. That makes it extraordinarily difficult to control the spread of the infection; if the chinese quarantine measures seem harsh, it's because anything less than that can't work.

I'd say it's not the transmission or fatality that makes it scary, it's this long incubation period that makes it so easy to possibly escape containment which makes it worrying...

In other news, is anybody else playing Plague, Inc.?

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: soilder198 on February 24, 2020, 09:10:15 pm
https://nextshark.com/plague-inc-increase-sales-amid-coronavirus/

All of China apparently.

We will probably do something similar when humanity enters into World War Three.

We will make real time epic battle royale games featuring actual living and deceased soldiers that will document the progress of the war through memes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 25, 2020, 06:11:32 am
document the progress of the war through memes.


This already happens in the British Army, in seriously heavy detail.  But 99.9 percent of it is incredibly graphic and by societal standards in very poor taste.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on February 25, 2020, 07:07:03 am
(https://media.tenor.com/images/4e1f1338392a03030c517a52a92f0e09/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on February 25, 2020, 10:04:32 pm
Well, it looks like Italy, Iran and South Korea have decided to play Plague Inc as well. Ironically parts of China are getting declared disease-free now as they've had no new cases in 14 days. My current home city of Xi'an is still locked down and supposedly only going back to semi-normal on the 3rd of March.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on February 28, 2020, 02:53:21 am
But 99.9 percent of it is incredibly graphic and by societal standards in very poor taste.

Pretty sure that could be applied to just about any military.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on February 28, 2020, 09:06:13 am
Dunno, add me on WhatsApp and I'll fire some stuff over I received today 😂😂
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on March 10, 2020, 05:15:37 am
It looks like I'll have a pretty boring month ahead, so I have quite a lot of time to rant about the situation in Italy.

Italy was one of the first countries to ban all flights to/from China. Too bad they did not think about indirect flights, so no quarantine was enforced for people arriving via intermediate stops.

The first cases were 2 Chinese tourists visiting Rome, who miraculously did not infect anybody else. They even recovered pretty well, despite their elderly age (~80 years old).

Then few weeks ago we had our first domestic cases, most probably triggered by an asymptomatic patient arrived from China via Munich.

At first it was decided to lock down the few towns where the first cases appeared, and outside this area it was asked to limit social activities (e.g. bars closing earlier) to prevent the spread of the virus.
People reacted in the most sensible way: either by going en masse to supermarkets to stock up food supplies, or by organizing group protests "You cannot limit our social activities!"

Then it was asked to avoid crowded places.
People reacted in the most sensible way: overcrowding ski resorts, with long queues for the ski lifts.

Then the government said "Since you are too stupid to follow rules, we have to lock down most of northern Italy [the most badly hit area. unfortunately I live in the second most hit province in the most hit region of Italy] to prevent further spread".
People reacted in the most sensible way: overcrowding trains departing towards southern Italy (also thanks to the government who announced the lock down BEFORE restricting travel).

Yesterday it was announced that, since the situation is out of control, the whole of Italy is in lock down until 3rd April.
People reacted in the most sensible way: by going en masse to supermarkets AGAIN to stock up food supplies.

The virus will not kill us. Our stupidity will.

Anyway, in my area the situation is pretty bad. Hospitals ran out of ICUs, so it was ordered to "prioritize patients with higher survival chances": let the elderly die, and try to save younger patients.

This is not a "slightly stronger flu". Our national healthcare system is collapsing. All non-COVID-19 issues are being postponed until the emergency is over (and optimistically a vaccine will not be available before mid-2021 :shaking: ).

Add to this that generally Italian bosses tend to think that smart working is for slackers and most are still forcing all employees to go to work (traveling is not restricted yet for "urgent health issues, urgent needs (e.g. buying food supplies) and urgent job-related reasons"). Me and my collegues had to argue to get assigned remote working.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 10, 2020, 01:20:12 pm
Add to this that generally Italian bosses tend to think that smart working is for slackers
Oh, yes it's a thing I have always found annoying about Italian work mentality.

I live on a small island and even a bit outside of its main urban center, so I am lucky in that regard I guess.
Of course our hotel should open in a few weeks and we already started getting cancellations for April but no panic at the supermarket or stuff like that though I had to wait outside the pharmacy (or chemist or however you call it) when I got some medicines for my brother (broken Achilles tendon, nothing to do with the virus) I had to wait outside to respect the two meters distance.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Iain Baker on March 10, 2020, 03:26:16 pm
Has anyone read World War Z? The zombie outbreak starts in China. Coincidence? I think not.

Awesome book. Movie - not so much. Free MUSE gig we won in a radio competition tie-in with the movie - Priceless  :cool:

Re being forced to go in to work. I have worked at places before which supposedly encouraged remote working - on paper. The old-guard managers didn't embrace it however. Thankfully now I'm self-employed and work from home. Plus, being a colossal introvert I only go out and mingle if I really have to. My infection risk should be pretty low, and being a bit of an OCD hygiene freak forgetting to wash my hands after touching anything isn't an issue. Which is why I am not too worried.

If I wasn't in such a fortunate position I would be starting to get worried. The governments of many countries appear to be taking it seriously. I don't recall them doing half a s much for SARS, Swine Flu (H1N1), Avian Flu (H7N9), ebola etc. Although it is mainly immunocompromised individuals, the very old and the very young that are most at risk, there have been fatalities of perfectly healthy people in their 20s and 30s. Since my ex is immunocompromised due to chemo / medication it is a bit of a worry. Plus all three children have health problems and the youngest is only 9.

I am still technically subscribed to a number of 'prepper' type YT channels back from when I was researching for my book (insert shameless plug - its free) https://www.nomadsreviews.co.uk/trlzsg (https://www.nomadsreviews.co.uk/trlzsg) and some of them are freaking out. Not the best barometer perhaps, since preppers by their nature think about and plan for worst-case-scenarios, but still something to think about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Bryan See on March 10, 2020, 03:55:22 pm
I was forced to stay inside. My country's got 130+ cases. Plus, there are fake news as well as swaths of misinformation flooded as part of a manufactured nihilism. I guess that the age of manufactured nihilism and the coronavirus outbreak are something that campaign creators should take note of as inspirations.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 10, 2020, 04:05:25 pm
I guess that the age of manufactured nihilism and the coronavirus outbreak are something that campaign creators should take note of as inspirations.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6b/82/18/6b8218ff0e97bb033c01ba3608203543.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: lostllama on March 11, 2020, 08:01:23 am
Anyway, in my area the situation is pretty bad. Hospitals ran out of ICUs, so it was ordered to "prioritize patients with higher survival chances": let the elderly die, and try to save younger patients.

This is chilling. https://threader.app/thread/1237142891077697538 (https://threader.app/thread/1237142891077697538)

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 11, 2020, 09:28:23 pm
Meanwhile, things are becoming increasingly normal here in China. The only issue the Chinese are worried about now seems to be foreigners bringing the virus back in.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on March 11, 2020, 09:59:12 pm
Also meanwhile, belated ineffectual travel bans are now in place, and the entire US professional (and amateur) sporting apparatus seems to be taking a hiatus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 11, 2020, 11:27:10 pm
Not gonna lie, the outbreak here in the US is causing me at least some anxiety. (I'm a borderline hypochondriac as it is... according to my wife.) Though, the part that worries me the most is that we have a goddamn ****ing moron in the White House who made it all about himself, PR, and his political outcome. ****ing **** that mother ****er. He's going be the cause of at least a few deaths. He has no idea what he's doing.

I feel a little better after writing that sentence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on March 11, 2020, 11:29:57 pm
And now Tom Hanks and his wife tested positive.  We live in the ****ing worst timeline.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 11, 2020, 11:30:48 pm
We live in the ****ing worst timeline.

That legit made me laugh out loud.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Novachen on March 12, 2020, 01:13:00 am
Yeah, i am in quarantine now.
Since yesterday, because in the company where my husband works there is at least one confirmed infected person. One of the Field staff. And now they taken down all Employees who have seen him once during the last two weeks and so all other persons who had contact with the persons who have seen him.

That is totally stupid as you meet many people during two weeks...

Even not much is changing for me, as i am working from home anyway. Only that i am not even allowed to leave the house or you will be caught by the police eventually. Great.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 12, 2020, 01:49:10 am
We live in the ****ing worst timeline.

That legit made me laugh out loud.


What if this is the only timeline where Volition released the source code, or heaven forbid, made freespace.




Lots of toilet paper being hoarded in the UK for some unknown sheeple reason.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on March 12, 2020, 02:51:36 am
Lots of toilet paper being hoarded in the UK for some unknown sheeple reason.
My guess is that someone made a comment about "**** hitting the fan" and people interpreted that a bit too literally. :P


Over here, they're also hoarding bottled water for some reason.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on March 12, 2020, 09:35:58 am
Here in Italy people hoarded pasta.
I know, it sounds so stereotypical, but it's true :nervous:

I really hope it doesn't end like last time though.
(https://i.imgur.com/vpEVHTr.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 12, 2020, 10:36:31 am
Mother ****er.

POLITICO: Trump’s travel ban sidesteps his own European resorts.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/trump-coronavirus-travel-europe-resorts-126808
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: NeonShivan on March 12, 2020, 12:10:00 pm
Mother ****er.

POLITICO: Trump’s travel ban sidesteps his own European resorts.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/trump-coronavirus-travel-europe-resorts-126808

What a ****ing idiot.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 12, 2020, 09:22:47 pm
Here in Italy people hoarded pasta.

Hoarding pasta makes sense though. Water will still be available so as long as you have some way to make sauce you've got a meal right there.

Hell, pasta and noodles were the majority of what I ate while I was quarantined for a week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on March 12, 2020, 10:07:55 pm
Mother ****er.

POLITICO: Trump’s travel ban sidesteps his own European resorts.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/trump-coronavirus-travel-europe-resorts-126808

What a ****ing idiot.

True as you tell it, NeonShivan, but that's not news, though. We've known he's a ****ing idiot for years. What amazes me are all the ****ing idiots who still support him, even when it's been blatantly obvious for years that he's too corrupt and incompetent for the job he now holds. Only thing to do is to outvote them come November and tell Drumpf "YOU'RE FIRED!" so loudly that even he could understand it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on March 13, 2020, 04:41:18 am
It's not really much worse than the flu. It's just that the world already has the flu.

Influenza has a faster spread and higher mortality rate.  In short, don't panic about coronavirus but DO go get your damn flu shot (it's free in many countries).


sigh...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 13, 2020, 05:52:51 am
On a scale between Ebola and Flu, the coronavirus is definitely at the flu end of the scale. Spanish flu has about the same mortality rate as Covid-19. I was NOT underestimating how nasty influenza is. H1N1, for instance, killed at least 150,000 people in 2009 and infected somewhere in the region of a billion. That is despite it not being particularly more lethal or contagious than seasonal flu strains. What made it scary was that it didn't disproportionately affect the elderly.

If Covid-19 had been competently managed it couldn't possibly have killed anywhere close to that number nor infected as many people. In China (which absolutely should have been the worst case since it was the start of the outbreak) it has killed just over 3,000 people. The figures should not have climbed much from there. But thanks to the incompetence of various governments, pissing away the lead time that the Chinese quarantine bought the rest of the world, Covid-19 is back in the running.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 13, 2020, 06:52:39 am
Quote
Spanish flu has about the same mortality rate as Covid-19.

Quote from: Wikipedia on Spanish Flu
It infected 500 million people around the world,[2] or about 27% of the then world population of between 1.8 and 1.9 billion, including people on isolated Pacific islands and in the Arctic. The death toll is estimated to have been anywhere from 17 million[3] to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, making it one of the deadliest epidemics in human history.

 :nervous:

If you were referring to swine flu, swine flu had a mortality rate of 0.1% - this is not anywhere close to the current reported mortality rates from, say, China, which put them about 2%, or from the WHO, which puts it at 3.4%, or Italy, which puts it at 5%.

Even South Korea's death rate, at 0.6%, is still significantly higher then yer flu. But South Korea, unlike a lot of the countries in europe, has undertaken massive amounts of testing and actually prepared for this. Wuhan and Italy have larger mortality rates in part becuase their medical systems became overwhelmed by the number of cases. That's a reason to worry, especially if you live in a country that doesn't want to take economic risks for the sake of virus control (like the netherlands was until yesterday) or if you live in a country that doesn't have universal healthcare system (like the US).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 13, 2020, 08:17:17 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic#Comparisons_to_other_pandemics_and_epidemics

I would have thought that when I said Spanish Flu it was clear I was referring to Spanish Flu. :p But yeah, I know both that and Swine Flu are H1N1 strains, so it was a little ambiguous. Remember when I posted (In late January. Luis has dredged up a post from over a month and a half ago for some bizarre reason) people were panicking that this was like ebola. It isn't and my post was meant to address that issue. Look at the posts above mine "is humanity doomed?" and "How does it kill you". The answer to both of those is it's basically like a nasty flu (like the 1918 Spanish flu).

Spanish flu had a mortality rate of at least 1% and maybe a few times that. In other words, covid-19 is in that range. Swine flu has a lower mortality rate, but IIRC was caught much later, after it was very hard to stop it from becoming a pandemic. Both of those should have been warnings on how to deal with this.

So yes, Coronavirus is something to worry about. But panic doesn't help anything. Understanding the dangers and how to mitigate them does.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: IronBeer on March 13, 2020, 02:57:04 pm
The world isn't ending.

But it IS going to get a lot ****tier for a while.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on March 13, 2020, 06:43:24 pm
HEY DID SOMEONE SAY "SPANISH INFLUENZA"?


This video was released July 7, 2018
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: TechnoD11 on March 14, 2020, 12:19:07 am
The world isn't ending.

But it IS going to get a lot ****tier for a while.

I have literally though this same thing every year since 2016.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: RizZen on March 14, 2020, 02:53:28 am
Covid-19! The corona pandemia is a global worst case scenario. And yes - it reached ALL our front-doors. Most likely in some weeks / months - more than 50% of the world population will be infected. The German government rubber-stambed 12 billion Euro this week to have a backbone for fighting against this virus. This is something that shouldn't be ignored because anyone is involved.

"Hi, im biologist from Germany.

I would like to know more about this virus. I guess there is much "misinformation" out there... - so what i know so far (plz correct me when i'm wrong):

- Corona is familiar to "SARS" - which infected thousands some years ago (lung disease)- Covid-19 is the actual mutation version of Corona that is spreading worldwide atm- the approximate death-rate is 1-4% - depends on what statistics you use and what numbers you let flow into it- the majority of infections is harmless -> high rate of unrecognized infections- people with pre-existing illnesses are in danger to get REAL sick / dead- actually we have infections gobal all over the world (pandemia)

_______________________________

Now WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW / HAVE:

- detailed information about the DNS structure of Covid-19

- all information about SARS / Corona research you got

- it's mutation rate

- any long time researches (when exists)

Today we created an open private CORONA work-group here in my region. We are a team / merge of intelligent people, scientists, students and private people who want to help.

Each research sheet, *.pdf - or colloquial data about that virus is interesting for us.

Please send / give us all information you got and help us to find a solution / cure of this and familiar deseases.

I know the history of humanity. In moments like this - when humanity have to overcome biggest problems - WE HAVE TO UNITE!!!

For a virus there exists no border - no nation - no politics. In order to to stop a virus like this or any worse than that - we have to unite. No matter what religion - what nationality - age - or state. This desease hits ALL OF US. So lets do what we forgot to do in the past decades - LETS WORK TOGETHER!"

CORONA CARE - Germany (https://www.focus.de/perspektiven/deutschland-hilft-sich/nachbarschaftshilfe-focus-online-startet-deutschlands-groesste-hilfsaktion_id_11765041.html)

___

General information for all: Corona/Covid-19 is not much more than a flu. The global panic is more dangerous than the virus itself - at the moment. Things that make me afraid are the stupidness of mankind and the possibility / chances for that virus to "mutate". The prevelance rate of this virus exonentially high and when it mutates to a version with a higher death-rate it CAN become a REAL problem in the future. That's why we created a global - open minded work group - all people work together and share all information about SARS/COVID/CORONA and we WILL develop a vaccine / antidote.

I send love from Germany. To all people in the world: Take care of you and the people next to you! Together we can stand this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 14, 2020, 10:10:27 am

Well...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on March 14, 2020, 09:35:12 pm
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/business_greetings.png) (https://www.xkcd.com/2277/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 15, 2020, 07:07:02 am
Hehe. Good old XKCD. He's got a few good ones re:coronavirus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 15, 2020, 09:55:15 am
Fight it with CPU / GPU cycles (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=48484.0) (HLP [email protected] thread).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on March 16, 2020, 02:39:59 am

Well...

Man, Professor Porter is such a badass. She was running for office while still a professor at my law school my first year. Sadly, she only taught upper level courses, and my second year she was off because that November was the general election. I will forever regret not having the chance to take a class taught by her. Alas.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 16, 2020, 10:46:15 am
So our region president decided to suspend almost all travel from and to Sicily to facilitate screenings.
The continent is officially isolated.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 17, 2020, 06:30:31 am
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/coronavirus_research.png)

It's like he's met my family.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on March 17, 2020, 10:31:07 am
It's not really much worse than the flu. It's just that the world already has the flu.

Influenza has a faster spread and higher mortality rate.  In short, don't panic about coronavirus but DO go get your damn flu shot (it's free in many countries).


sigh...

Look at the date.  That was pre-Italy's data.

I DO stand by my "don't panic" statement, but I also fully agree with the measures now being introduced in most countries to flatten out the infection curve (the UK's bat**** herd immunity approach being a notable exception).  Coronavirus is undoubtedly serious and deserves a serious response - it's not-quite-but-getting-closer-to-Spanish-Flu trajectories - but the fact remains that everyone STILL has a higher risk of getting and being killed by influenza on an annual basis than coronavirus.

Now, if you've over 60 or immunocompromised, those numbers change.  Mortality rates in those subgroups are startlingly high, and this is actually the reason why everyone needs to take measures to reduce transmission.  I, for one, would like to get an ICU bed if something happened to me instead of them predominantly being occupied by older people who thought it's still a great idea to keep up with all their social activities and church groups.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on March 17, 2020, 11:43:39 am
At least my state and those right next door forced the issue and mandated the social-distancing thing without waiting for the federal government to do nothing at all do something.  As others have said, I'm not really concerned for myself, but I am very concerned for a few immediate family members I live with who have significant health conditions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on March 18, 2020, 12:30:59 am
I work at a supermarket only two blocks from my apartment so I've seen firsthand how many of the shelves range from half-empty to almost completely stripped bare. No beef, no pork, no chicken, only cold cuts and kielbasa were left in the meat section. In the paper products section, only a few rolls of paper towels and NO toilet paper at all. I mean, seriously? Repeatedly wiping your ass might be considered hygienic, if a bit obsessive, but you're not gonna get rid of the coronavirus that way. :rolleyes:

But my sister is a bit worried I might get exposed while I work there and since I have a preexisting condition (diabetes and I had pneumonia once before) if I get the coronavirus, I might very well be ****ed with the proverbial chainsaw. Needless to say, I'm keeping my distance from customers as well as washing my hands and using hand sanitizer at every opportunity. Not to mention windexing my register and conveyer periodically. :nervous:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on March 18, 2020, 12:43:10 am
I suppose it's been a century or so since a true global disaster hit. And while this may or may not result in millions dead, it will certainly throw a wrench into the current order of things for possibly years.
Stay safe everyone.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on March 18, 2020, 10:02:53 am
My wife and I were talking about this last night.  The really scary thing is that even if the control measures work, they have the side effect of ****ing the economy right over.  All kinds of businesses are being forced to close their doors, at least temporarily, and many have to lay off their workers.  Canada has an Employment Insurance program which covers people who have been working and paid into it, but the self-employed and small business owners are screwed.  And its a negative feedback loop - for every business that has to lay people off temporarily, that's fewer people spending money, which means more businesses lack revenue, which forces more layoffs, etc - this eventually trickles up to affect rent/mortgages and then banks.  And the kicker is that it won't just automatically restart when measures are relaxed - just because people can go back to work, businesses can't reopen without customer and revenue chains and if money isn't moving those won't show up.

In short, unprecedented government stimulus and aid measures direct to citizenry are going to become necessary in a whole bunch of advanced democracies.  Wouldn't it be ironic if the thing that finally triggers the middle and lower classes to stop voting for low taxes for the rich and start considering measures like universal basic incomes is a global economic meltdown brought about by a pandemic.

On another note, I am VERY mad at millionaires and billionaires right now.  Locally, food banks are begging for cash donations on radio and TV from the middle class as we bleed jobs on a daily basis, but there seems to be very little assistance from those who can most afford it.  Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively being an apparent exception.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 18, 2020, 10:20:07 am
Thing is that China actually did come up with a raft of measures to help prevent people from having to sack employees during the shutdown. Not entirely sure of the details because I was pretty safe as a teacher (They just made me teach online and the school has already got the money for the term).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 18, 2020, 11:07:04 am
What timeline is this where we are looking to China as an example of how to treat people? Lol.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 18, 2020, 11:14:24 am
What timeline is this where we are looking to China as an example of how to treat people? Lol.

The one where China's response, (once they got over the whole downplaying phase), was better organized and more effective than the american one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 18, 2020, 11:43:08 am
Which says so much about the American government these days...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 18, 2020, 12:59:30 pm
Once the balloon goes up so to say, my stockpile of unused army rations (not a prepper I just didn't get rid of them 😂) means I'm good for 3 weeks or so unless I share with wife and kids in which case we'll probably last til Wednesday.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 18, 2020, 01:33:35 pm
MRE veggie omelet ftw amiright?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on March 18, 2020, 06:07:10 pm
The U.S. is, under this current administration, failing miserably even by the standard of countries like Iran. We have no idea how many people are infected because we literally don't have the same kind of test the rest of the world is using.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 18, 2020, 09:26:25 pm
And you just know that a story will quietly appear and be forgotten about / ignored by Trump's entire base that it was because someone in the administration made money off the decision to use a US kit instead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 18, 2020, 09:34:52 pm
And you just know that a story will quietly appear and be forgotten about / ignored by Trump's entire base that it was because someone in the administration made money off the decision to use a US kit instead.

Uh pretty sure I already saw something about one of the companies set to provide kits has strong ties to Jared Kushner.... Now I gotta go find the source.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 18, 2020, 10:41:46 pm
CDC issue with test kits fixed:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/02/27/809936132/cdc-fixes-issue-delaying-coronavirus-testing-in-u-s

Now, on the main issue:

Claim that US turned down WHO test kits debunked:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/16/joe-biden/biden-falsely-says-trump-administration-rejected-w/

Quote
Biden falsely says Trump administration rejected WHO coronavirus test kits (that were never offered)
by Jon Greenberg (https://www.politifact.com/staff/jon-greenberg/)
March 16, 2020
by Victoria Knight (https://www.politifact.com/staff/victoria-knight/)
March 16, 2020

tl;dr:

  • The WHO never offered to sell test kits to the United States.
  • The CDC opted to develop its own coronavirus test and did not use the WHO’s protocol for the test.
  • Other developed countries with advanced research capabilities developed their own tests. (emphasis mine)

See sources for this fact-check (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/16/joe-biden/biden-falsely-says-trump-administration-rejected-w/#sources)

Copy-pasta with links:

During Sunday night’s debate (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/2003/15/se.03.html), while levelling criticism at President Donald Trump’s handling of the national response to the coronavirus pandemic, former Vice President Joe Biden said the Trump administration refused to get coronavirus testing kits from the World Health Organization.

"Look, the World Health Organization offered the testing kits that they have available and to give it to us now. We refused them. We did not want to buy them. We did not want to get them from them. We wanted to make sure we had our own," Biden said.

A similar claim on WHO test kits has also been circulating on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10222850123429995&set=a.1853283860201&type=3&theater).

The Biden campaign referred us to a Politico article (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/06/coronavirus-testing-failure-123166) that said the WHO shipped coronavirus tests to nearly 60 countries at the end of February, but the U.S. was not among them. That is technically correct, but it suggests that the United States would have been on the list under any circumstances.

The countries WHO helped are ones that lack the virology lab horsepower that exists across the United States. The outreach work by the Pan American Health Organization is a case in point.

The group is WHO’s arm in the Americas. It conducted trainings and sent materials to conduct tests to 29 nations. The list included Paraguay, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, and many others.

The group said it focused most of its efforts (https://www.paho.org/chi/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1186:directora-de-ops-las-americas-debe-prepararse-para-responder-a-casos-importados-brotes-y-transmision-comunitaria-de-la-covid-19&Itemid=1005) on "countries with the weakest health systems."

"No discussions occurred between WHO and CDC about WHO providing COVID-19 tests to the United States," said WHO spokeswoman Margaret Harris. "This is consistent with experience since the United States does not ordinarily rely on WHO for reagents or diagnostic tests because of sufficient domestic capacity."

According to interviews with several infectious disease experts, Biden’s statement leaves out key context regarding how different countries decided on which test they’d use to identify the presence of the coronavirus.

WHO lists seven different approaches (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/technical-guidance/laboratory-guidance) — including that of China, the United States, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, France and Germany — each one targeting different parts of the COVID-19 genetic profile.

Christopher Mores, a global health professor at George Washington University, said that when faced with an outbreak, the WHO will usually adopt the best test that a research group brings forward.

The German one became the approach WHO circulated as its preferred model.

Aid groups, such as the Pan American Health Organization, took that model and built their training and supplies around it. If the model was like the recipe in a cookbook, the supplies were the ingredients in a home meal kit from Blue Apron.

Any country could use whatever recipe it preferred, and even if the United States had picked the WHO’s protocol, it wouldn’t need the WHO to sell it the materials to follow it. Germany released its protocol on Jan. 17 (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/wuhan-virus-assay-v1991527e5122341d99287a1b17c111902.pdf), but the U.S. decided to have the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention develop its own. That protocol was published Jan. 28.

In this instance, this caused a lag in testing for the virus in the U.S.

The CDC’s test was different and more complicated than the German test. It worked in the CDC lab, but when the materials went out to state labs (https://www.propublica.org/article/cdc-coronavirus-covid-19-test), some of them got inconsistent results. The CDC had to resend packages with new chemical reagents.

State laboratories (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762951) started developing their own tests and were ready to use them, but had to wait for emergency approval from the Food and Drug Administration. All of this added up to a delay in testing capabilities which resulted in fewer Americans being tested and an overall slower U.S. response compared to other countries.

When asked to respond to Biden’s claim, the Trump campaign pointed to multiple news stories that said it's not uncommon for the U.S. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage) and other countries (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/what-went-wrong-with-the-coronavirus-tests/2020/03/07/915f5dea-5d82-11ea-b29b-9db42f7803a7_story.html) to develop their own tests during outbreaks, and that the CDC did so during Ebola and Zika outbreaks. The campaign also said the CDC's test had a quick turnaround (https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-fast-tracked-a-coronavirus-test/) compared to other diagnostic tests like MERS and Zika that took months to develop. And the issue with the CDC’s protocol was not the test itself, but rather a manufacturing defect (https://www.wsj.com/articles/manufacturing-defect-in-some-early-cdc-test-kits-being-probed-11583119414), the campaign added.

That’s not how it works

While it might seem odd that the Trump administration shunned the WHO’s coronavirus test protocol, it’s normal for countries with advanced research capabilities to want to develop a measure that they trust.

"I don’t know if WHO agreed to sell the kits to us, but it should never have been something we needed to do given our technological expertise and the fact we would have ‘taken kits from low- and middle-income countries’ that otherwise could not make or afford them," said Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, in an email.

It’s also unlikely, Mores said, that the WHO offered to sell kits to the U.S., because that’s not normally what the organization does.

"In my experience, this is never something that I would have to purchase," he said.

Typically, Mores said, American labs have all of the basic ingredients and equipment to run the test — all that would be needed is the viral sequences and an exact test protocol. The only catch at the moment is that supplies of those basic ingredients are stretched thin due to high demand.

Our ruling

Biden said, "The World Health Organization offered, offered the testing kits that they have available and to give it to us now. We refused them. We did not want to buy them."

Biden has a point that the U.S. did not attempt to use the WHO test. But the U.S. would never have needed complete kits from WHO. Even if it had adopted the WHO testing approach, it already had access to all the necessary materials.

WHO said there was never any talk of WHO sending testing kits to the United States.

Biden’s words leave out other important context and information.

The U.S. chose to use its own test, rather than the one circulated by WHO. Other nations, such as China, Japan and France, also developed their own tests. Multiple public health experts said that is not unusual.

Biden’s emphasis on WHO offering kits is simply wrong. We rate this claim Mostly False.

Also

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-went-wrong-with-coronavirus-testing-in-the-us

Snopes version of the same thing with the same results here: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/us-coronavirus-test/

Snopes debunking the Kushner conspiracy theory:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/kushner-oscar-covid/

Quote
What's True
Jared Kushner’s brother, Joshua, is co-founder of the health insurance start-up Oscar, which recently released an online tool to locate COVID-19 testing centers in some areas. At least in the past, Jared Kushner has had a financial interest in Oscar.

What's False (basically the entire effing thing because the facts destroy the underlying reasoning for the conspiracy theory)
Oscar is not involved in the actual process of COVID-19 testing or in the manufacturing of such a test. Oscar created a website — open to the public — that screens users to see if they qualify for a test and then provides a list of testing sites nearby.

Not copy-pasting that, you can go check the Snopes link out if you want the details and sources.

You folks stay classy in here, and give Maddow my regards.  :yes:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 18, 2020, 11:25:20 pm
Notice that even the link you quote points out that the decision to use American tests rather than simply copying the German one caused delays. Just cause Biden got a bunch of facts wrong doesn't mean that the CDC's decision was a good one. It was a bad choice. And I'll still bet money was behind it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 19, 2020, 01:15:51 am
MRE veggie omelet ftw amiright?

Hot chocolate mixed into the porridge.  😉👌
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 19, 2020, 07:26:36 am
Notice that even the link you quote points out that the decision to use American tests rather than simply copying the German one caused delays. Just cause Biden got a bunch of facts wrong doesn't mean that the CDC's decision was a good one. It was a bad choice. And I'll still bet money was behind it.

'

If you bother to read the context, it also points out that this was a) not unusual, and also done by several other advanced countries (China, Japan, France) and b) caused by a manufacturing defect in the CDC test that was rectified.

EDIT: A bit more detail and reasoning (Chinese tests had too high false positive rate, US wanted its own version -- again, not unusual, and like others -- also, WHO did not have its own protocol but rather simply published the German one):

https://ktla.com/news/coronavirus/who-cdc-never-discussed-providing-coronavirus-test-kits-to-the-u-s-global-health-agency-says/

EDIT 2:

Trump fired pandemic officials debunked:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/feb/28/michael-bloomberg/did-donald-trump-fire-pandemic-officials-defund-cd/

Quote
On the first point, it’s hard to pin down whether the National Security Council staffers were "fired" in 2018, but they certainly left abruptly and have not been replaced, though other leaders in the coronavirus fight have been named in recent days.



CDC funding cut debunked:

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/false-claim-about-cdcs-global-anti-pandemic-work/

Quote
CDC operating budget plans show that its funding for global public health protection — which includes global disease detection and emergency response and global public health capacity — increased from $58 million in fiscal year 2017 to around $108 million in fiscal years 2018 and 2019. (And that does not include any remaining supplemental funds available for use.) The increases included nearly $50 million more each year for CDC’s global health security initiatives.

Those amounts went up again in fiscal year 2020, when the CDC was awarded $183 million for global public health protection, overall, and $125 million specifically for its global health security efforts. For fiscal year 2021, President Donald Trump has requested that CDC funding for global disease detection and other programs be increased further — to $225 million total, with $175 million going directly to global health security.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 19, 2020, 07:57:19 am
lol jr2, you may want to read the stuff you link.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 19, 2020, 08:15:08 am
While it is a good idea to avoid the spread of lies and misinformation, this is not how it should be done jr2.

 I mean, it's not even like you've pointed out anything I didn't know. You're debunking claims no one on this thread has made. Who cares if the problem with the test kits was due to a manufacturing problem or not? A delay in testing is a still a delay. It's still going to cost lives. Why are you glossing over the fact that the German protocol for testing was released long before the American one? That even without the manufacturing error you are pointing out the US would still have been behind. Why are you ignoring that even once the manufacturing defect was cured that there still is a lack of testing going on in the USA? Why are you posting that the claim that Trump fired the pandemic team is debunked but ignoring the fact that many of them resigned and then Trump failed to hire new people to replace them? No pandemic team is no pandemic team. Why have you quoted that CDC funding was increased, but not quoted why!

Quote
It’s not accurate to say that Trump has been "defunding" the CDC, but he has tried to make cuts in key programs. It’s just that Congress didn’t listen.

The Trump administration’s initial proposals for the budgets for emerging and zoonotic infectious diseases at CDC — a key player in the fight against coronavirus — have consistently been lower than what was spent the previous year. The administration proposed $61.7 million less in 2018 than 2017; $96.4 million less in 2019 than in 2018; $114.4 million less in 2020 than in 2019; and $85.3 million less in 2021 than 2020.

However, Congress reshapes presidential recommendations as they see fit when they craft final spending bills. Every year since Trump has been president, lawmakers have passed bills — bills signed by Trump — that not only exceeded what Trump requested on emerging infections but also exceeded what had been spent the previous year.

Why is your own grade for this debunking you've taken upon yourself to do also

(https://static.politifact.com/politifact/rulings/meter-half-true.jpg)

Please explain why you are engaging in exactly the sort of flim-flam and half truths you are calling other people out for.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 19, 2020, 10:19:34 am
Right.  So it doesn't matter if the OPPOSITE is in fact true, the mere fact that someone ATTEMPTED to reduce funding means that, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT FUNDING WAS INCREASED, this has caused problems.

You can criticize the attempt.  You can say "see, this is why it would have been terrible to cut funding".  But you can't blame the spread of a pandemic on something that never happened (budget cuts).  Politifact can squeak about "half true" all they want: the underlying premise of blame is invalid.

So yeah, I think I'll stand by my original point.

EDIT: In fact, if one would insist on placing blame on Trump for attempting to cut funding, then one would, by that very logic, be forced to CREDIT Trump for increasing funding, as he was the one that signed the eventual increases into law!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 19, 2020, 10:22:48 am
jr2, you're going to continue to make a fool of yourself if you don't read the things you are either quoting or responding to.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 19, 2020, 10:31:31 am
jr2, you're going to continue to make a fool of yourself if you don't read the things you are either quoting or responding to.

Except for the part where I never claimed anyone IN THIS THREAD had made those claims.  It's a catch all debunk on the general topic.  I suppose I could have made that a little more clear.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 19, 2020, 10:34:37 am
So you're just here to scream into the void and then get mad at people who reply?

Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 19, 2020, 10:40:18 am
You folks stay classy in here, and give Maddow my regards.  :yes:

I'M NoT ReplYINg TO ANyoNE
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 19, 2020, 11:02:36 am
If you're not actually talking to anyone on this thread jr2, maybe you shouldn't be quoting people in your post?

But as I pointed out in my previous post, even if you are just standing up for the truth, even if you just think that the truth is super important and everyone needs to know the truth so you have to shout it out onto a thread that never asked you to do so, why are you being so selective about which truths you stand up for?

Why are you misrepresenting the truth in order to argue that the truth is important and shouldn't be misrepresented?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on March 19, 2020, 11:09:17 am
Apparently the management of the factory I work at is debating whether or not to shut down due to COVID-19.

I'm not entirely sure what the fulcrum of the debate is.  The assembly plants that we supply parts to are all shutting down.  All of the suppliers that send us raw materials are shutting down.  Even if we're an island of good health, we won't have any material to run or anywhere to send it.

What I am entirely sure about is that cramming 300+ people at a time into one room to make the announcement is probably not the best idea.  You know, on account of the contagious disease and such.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 19, 2020, 11:10:13 am
If you're not actually talking to anyone on this thread jr2, maybe you shouldn't be quoting people in your post?

But as I pointed out in my previous post, even if you are just standing up for the truth, even if you just think that the truth is super important and everyone needs to know the truth so you have to shout it out onto a thread that never asked you to do so, why are you being so selective about which truths you stand up for?

Why are you misrepresenting the truth in order to argue that the truth is important and shouldn't be misrepresented?

*sigh*

The U.S. is, under this current administration, failing miserably even by the standard of countries like Iran. We have no idea how many people are infected because we literally don't have the same kind of test the rest of the world is using.

Yes, we are totes doing worse than Iran.  This ^^ line of reasoning is based on faulty accusations like the ones I posted about.


EDIT:

Apparently the management of the factory I work at is debating whether or not to shut down due to COVID-19.

I'm not entirely sure what the fulcrum of the debate is.  The assembly plants that we supply parts to are all shutting down.  All of the suppliers that send us raw materials are shutting down.  Even if we're an island of good health, we won't have any material to run or anywhere to send it.

What I am entirely sure about is that cramming 300+ people at a time into one room to make the announcement is probably not the best idea.  You know, on account of the contagious disease and such.

They have a ban on having more than 50 people in the same building here or something like that, as management at my factory was saying they'd have to do some interesting things if they lowered that number (we have two buildings, one is usually staffed by 2-5 people, so we could balance the load and have customer service work from home if that number drops to 25).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 19, 2020, 11:16:03 am
*sigh*

That is not a response. Address kara's points.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 19, 2020, 11:17:47 am
I uh.. what. There's next to no testing happening in the US. What's the faulty reasoning?

There's even confirmed news (truth) that the CDC was telling private companies in Washington to stop doing private testing early on. Those companies did it anyway and found a huge number of cases. Hence why we know Seattle is a hotspot. Trump announced that we'd have drive through testing available across the US in parking lots like Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, etc early this week. That has not happened. Hello! It's Thursday!

My wife is a nurse at a hospital here in KC. They were told to expect to be doing parking lot testing by Tuesday. They still haven't gotten the supplies they need to make that happen. So what's the faulty reasoning about the US doing a horrible job? Seems pretty accurate to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 19, 2020, 11:17:59 am
Apparently the management of the factory I work at is debating whether or not to shut down due to COVID-19.

I'm not entirely sure what the fulcrum of the debate is.  The assembly plants that we supply parts to are all shutting down.  All of the suppliers that send us raw materials are shutting down.  Even if we're an island of good health, we won't have any material to run or anywhere to send it.

What I am entirely sure about is that cramming 300+ people at a time into one room to make the announcement is probably not the best idea.  You know, on account of the contagious disease and such.

but if all of you die they can hire a new work force at lower rates
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on March 19, 2020, 11:24:32 am
but if all of you die they can hire a new work force at lower rates

Sounds about right.

The regular monthly employee meetings are usually the management *****ing about rising labor costs and how we all need to work harder to keep putting money in the investors' pockets, followed by the "employee advocate" reminding us all what a terrible idea it would be to unionize.  They dress it up in flowery corporate-speak, but that somehow just makes it all the more demoralizing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 19, 2020, 11:40:20 am
Personally, we got ordered to work from home starting today until at least April.




Finally, my long training as a borderline recluse is paying off!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 19, 2020, 11:53:52 am
Personally, we got ordered to work from home starting today until at least April.




Finally, my long training as a borderline recluse is paying off!

Same!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 19, 2020, 12:04:55 pm
Trying to blame Trump for the ****ty US response aside, I think it's fair to say that the rise of populism/nationalism and a general "go-it-alone, my-country-first" attitude worldwide has probably hampered the response. Rose-colored hindsight being 20/20 (god i love butchering these), it seemed like there was a much more cohesive worldwide effort with ebola, H1N1, etc.

Finally, my long training as a borderline recluse is paying off!

I expect to see a lot of "in-progress" mods and campaigns released before this is all through *runs away* :P

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 19, 2020, 02:15:33 pm
As if on cue...

Before Virus Outbreak, a Cascade of Warnings Went Unheeded (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-outbreak.html)

Apparently branches of the government have been trying to prepare for this for at least 4-5 years. Specifically they did a simulation last year that almost perfectly matches the current outbreak and Trump still proposed cutting the CDC budget again. Most, if not all, warnings have gone unheeded for years.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 19, 2020, 02:44:37 pm
As if on cue...

Before Virus Outbreak, a Cascade of Warnings Went Unheeded (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-outbreak.html)

Apparently branches of the government have been trying to prepare for this for at least 4-5 years. Specifically they did a simulation last year that almost perfectly matches the current outbreak and Trump still proposed cutting the CDC budget again. Most, if not all, warnings have gone unheeded for years.

But the CDC budget was increased, and signed off on by Trump (although I get you're at least stating that he only proposed it, you also have to consider how bargaining works: you propose massive cuts, they propose massive increases, you meet in the middle).

While we're on that topic:

What timeline is this where we are looking to China as an example of how to treat people? Lol.

The one where China's response, (once they got over the whole downplaying phase), was better organized and more effective than the american one.

Mmk, there's a difference between downplaying (what Trump was doing) and effing destroying evidence of the disease, and censoring those trying to blow the whistle for at least three weeks.

https://nypost.com/2020/02/29/china-officials-knew-of-coronavirus-in-december-ordered-cover-up-report-says/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chinese-scientists-destroyed-proof-of-virus-in-december-rz055qjnj
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on March 19, 2020, 02:56:19 pm
Arguing which country has the dumbest reaction isn't productive, isn't the whole reason we HAVE a government is to limit this kind of idiocy?
These governments don't need you to carry water for them, they were unprepared despite the warnings from their own agencies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 19, 2020, 02:56:36 pm
Stop being selective and answer the questions addressed to you.

Whataboutism toward China does not fix our government's complete unpreparedness to handle the pandemic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 19, 2020, 02:57:47 pm
Obligatorryyyy
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 19, 2020, 03:28:25 pm
But please explain to me how signing a bill once a year absolves this administration from literally all they have(n't) done in the past few years when it comes to, err

not staffing the cdc when people quit
disbanding *the entire pandemic team* after its leader quit
not staffing those gaps either (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/18/coronavirus-did-president-trumps-decision-disband-global-pandemic-office-hinder-response/5064881002/)
not having tests ready (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-us-testing-donald-trump)
lying about how long the disease was in the country (US's first case was in january) (https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/11/politics/fact-check-trump-administration-coronavirus-28-dishonest/index.html)
claiming the disease was "under control" in february (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1232058127740174339)
not doing any testing to confirm this claim (https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-how-many-coronavirus-tests-per-capita-have-been-completed)
purposefully leaving people to die in an effort to "not raise the numbers" on how many people were infected (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-on-allowing-grand-princess-cruise-passengers-to-disembark-id-rather-have-them-stay-on-personally-2020-03-07)
claiming the virus was contained (https://www.businessinsider.com/five-times-the-trump-administration-downplayed-the-coronavirus-2020-3?international=true&r=US&IR=T)
not doing any testing to confirm this claim (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51818627)
saying that the coronavirus is "Like the flu"
[url=https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-meeting-african-american-leaders/]saying the virus will "Disappear like a miracle" (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/stocks-dive-coronavirus-spreads-trump-repeats-risk-covid/story?id=69482971)
not doing any testing to see if it's actually going away (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51875871)
underplaying the amount of (known) infections by saying they were "lower then just about anybody" (https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/11/fact-check-a-list-of-28-ways-trump-and-his-team-have-been-dishonest-about-the-coronavirus/)
not doing any testing to confirm this claim (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/how-many-americans-have-been-tested-coronavirus/607597/)
Having a 10 minute speech which turned out to be so wrong that various other departments had to correct it (https://www.businessinsider.nl/white-house-scrambles-to-clarify-details-on-coronavirus-response-2020-3?international=true&r=US)
Focusing this speech on how you're preventing the disease from entering the country, completely ignoring that the disease literally already is in the country (since January!) and what you really need is more testing.

Or you can continue to be a coward who shrinks away when confronted with reality.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 19, 2020, 04:15:39 pm
But please explain to me how signing a bill once a year absolves this administration from literally all they have(n't) done in the past few years when it comes to, err

not staffing the cdc when people quit
disbanding *the entire pandemic team* after its leader quit
not staffing those gaps either
not having tests ready
lying about how long the disease was in the country (US's first case was in january)
claiming the disease was "under control" in february
not doing any testing to confirm this claim
purposefully leaving people to die in an effort to "not raise the numbers" on how many people were infected
claiming the virus was contained
not doing any testing to confirm this claim
saying that the coronavirus is "Like the flu"
saying the virus will "Disappear like a miracle"
not doing any testing to see if it's actually going away
underplaying the amount of (known) infections by saying they were "lower then just about anybody"
not doing any testing to confirm this claim
Having a 10 minute speech which turned out to be so wrong that various other departments had to correct it
Focusing this speech on how you're preventing the disease from entering the country, completely ignoring that the disease literally already is in the country (since January!) and what you really need is more testing.

Or you can continue to be a coward who shrinks away when confronted with reality.

I've already addressed the tests.

You can complain about the public-facing rhetoric, but Trump closed the borders to China on January 31 (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/01/31/801686524/trump-declares-coronavirus-a-public-health-emergency-and-restricts-travel-from-c), much to everyone's chagrin back then.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200318113953/https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/


I'm going to give your entire post a big citation ****ing needed for now though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 19, 2020, 04:21:30 pm
Lol, most of that is straight out of Trump's public speeches.

Closing the borders on the 31st to China did **** all because the disease was already known to be in at least 20+ countries by then, including the US.

EDIT: jr2, what's your goal here? There is literally no argument to be made that the US response has been good.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 19, 2020, 04:22:51 pm
I'm going to give your entire post a big citation ****ing needed for now though.

How about you give it an actual response before you get ejected from this thread. Every single one of Josh's points is easy to source; you should be able to come up with a response without being given chapter and verse on every single one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 19, 2020, 04:29:17 pm
And while we're talking about government responses and the need for them to make the right statements at the right time, here's Chancellor Merkel's address to the nation from yesterday (https://www.bundeskanzlerin.de/bkin-en/news/statement-chancellor-1732302). I should perhaps point out that Merkel does not do this, as a rule; in all her time in office, she only rarely addressed the nation this way. I generally dislike Merkel; I think her leadership has had catastrophic effects on the political fabric of the Federal Republic, but I can't help but respect her: She has demonstrated a moral courage and empathy in the refugee crisis and in this that I appreciate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 19, 2020, 04:29:59 pm
😷
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 19, 2020, 05:42:20 pm
I'm going to give your entire post a big citation ****ing needed for now though.

How about you give it an actual response before you get ejected from this thread. Every single one of Josh's points is easy to source; you should be able to come up with a response without being given chapter and verse on every single one.

inb4 he says there's too many links now
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 19, 2020, 05:44:58 pm
EDIT: jr2, what's your goal here? There is literally no argument to be made that the US response has been good.

Apperently it's got something to do with us giving our regards to Maddow.
What the goal doesn't involve is actually engaging with other people's points. He'd have done that already, but he just keeps jumping on a random tangent to avoid answering Karajorma.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 19, 2020, 07:38:20 pm
Went to the store yesterday, and besides being low on most canned goods and TP...they were completely out of spinach, lettuce, oatmeal, and ground beef.

Folks are eating some really ****ing weird salads.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 19, 2020, 07:49:38 pm
I saw a video from fellow teacher here in Xi'an who was explaining that watching his WeChat moments was like watching an entire country slowly lose their minds. And it's very, very true. Literally two weeks ago I looked out of a window and watched two kids play ping pong for a minute with no ball. :D
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on March 19, 2020, 07:55:23 pm
What I can't understand is why people are hoarding toilet paper
Went to the store yesterday, and besides being low on most canned goods and TP...they were completely out of spinach, lettuce, oatmeal, and ground beef.

Folks are eating some really ****ing weird salads.

Yeah, my supermarket has a lot of the same things missing. But it's also missing toilet paper and has been for days. Every time a new shipment of paper towels and toilet paper arrives at 6am when the store open, a bunch of customers descend like hungry vultures and buy them within 15 minutes. It's gotten so bad that the store is imposing a limit on the number of one or two (at most) 6-pack packages of toilet paper and paper towels. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I saw a video from fellow teacher here in Xi'an who was explaining that watching his WeChat moments was like watching an entire country slowly lose their minds. And it's very, very true. Literally two weeks ago I looked out of a window and watched two kids play ping pong for a minute with no ball. :D

Maybe it was a virtual ping pong ball? :nervous:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 19, 2020, 08:04:00 pm
But the CDC budget was increased, and signed off on by Trump (although I get you're at least stating that he only proposed it, you also have to consider how bargaining works: you propose massive cuts, they propose massive increases, you meet in the middle).

So what you are saying here is that Trump wanted to give the CDC less money than Congress wanted to. Even if you are 100% correct about the reason Trump wanted to make those cuts, the absolute inescapable conclusion is that Trump believed that the CDC should have less money than Congress wanted to give them. So although the funding the CDC did have has increased, by your own argument you must admit that Trump cut the CDC funding from what it could have been.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on March 19, 2020, 10:43:17 pm
The toilet paper thing has become some sort of bizarre self-perpetuating global meme at this point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 19, 2020, 11:34:15 pm
This made me laugh.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 20, 2020, 04:43:17 am

Movie when
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 20, 2020, 06:51:55 am
Link :drevil: (https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1240257271353016320)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 20, 2020, 07:39:40 am
It's not just politicians who can be accused of stupidity in this. No a giant heap of stupid resides in manglement (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-19/employers-balk-at-remote-work-for-virus-run-toward-the-crisis):

Quote
The online furniture retailer Houzz Inc. told operations and administrative staff to come in while the rest of their colleagues went remote. “I have never felt more devalued or disposable as a worker,” said one Houzz worker. That employee, like others who spoke to Bloomberg News, requested anonymity for fear of losing their job. In a statement, the company confirmed that some employees have to work from offices that remain open but said those who expressed concern are able to speak with management or human resources “to find a solution.”

No story about manglement is complete without an elongated muskrat:
Quote
But there are cases in which a company deems itself—and at least part of its workforce—to be essential, requiring employees to take risks. On Wednesday, Tesla Inc. was awaiting final word on the status of its factory in Fremont, California, after Alameda County officials said it is not an essential business. Many employees have still been coming to work.

But, the corporate overlords assure us (in a conference call they attended remotely), it's not about them having a need for presenteeism, it's about solidarity:
Quote
At American Airlines Inc., for instance, one employee said they were asked to work from the office “as an act of solidarity with frontline members.” A spokesperson said that work from home is allowed at the manager’s discretion and that the company has been working to ensure employees don’t feel pressured to come into the office.

It's not part of the article above, but did you realize that funko pops and videogame preorders are essential during this time? Lots of us haven't, but thanks to GameStop manglement (https://kotaku.com/gamestop-we-can-stay-open-during-lockdowns-because-wer-1842415962), we can rest assured that our supply of these vital items is secure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 20, 2020, 11:33:32 am
So, some encouraging news:

China {post-humously} exonerates doctor reprimanded for warning of virus (https://apnews.com/6f2e666485e9abae4bb112251eca77be).

That and there's some news about effective treatments: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41422-020-0282-0

Now I apparently have a list of links to go through.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 20, 2020, 11:41:50 am
I'd rather you'd actually reply to karajorma.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 20, 2020, 12:09:38 pm
NY city (and state) going on lockdown. 4000 cases and rising, not just due to infections but because testing is ramping up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 20, 2020, 12:12:11 pm
Quote
not staffing the cdc when people quit
disbanding *the entire pandemic team* after its leader quit
not staffing those gaps either (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/18/coronavirus-did-president-trumps-decision-disband-global-pandemic-office-hinder-response/5064881002/)

Already addressed that.

Quote
not having tests ready (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-us-testing-donald-trump)

Already addressed that too.


Quote
lying about how long the disease was in the country (US's first case was in january) (https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/11/politics/fact-check-trump-administration-coronavirus-28-dishonest/index.html)

Trump said, "We got hit with the virus really three weeks ago, if you think about it, I guess. That's when we first started really to see some possible effects."  -- from the piece.  This is self-explanatory if you read the second half of his statement, right there,and stop being so pedantic.

claiming the disease was "under control" in february (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1232058127740174339)

In February, it did indeed look under control.  Again, the MSM was busy saying he was a racist for closing travel down, and Big Tech was busy suppressing anyone daring to talk about it.

not doing any testing to confirm this claim (https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-how-many-coronavirus-tests-per-capita-have-been-completed)  You know, just about every point you make here you glibly throw in "and he didn't test to confirm it!" at the end.  I'm just saying.

Quote
purposefully leaving people to die in an effort to "not raise the numbers" on how many people were infected (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-on-allowing-grand-princess-cruise-passengers-to-disembark-id-rather-have-them-stay-on-personally-2020-03-07)

Easily explainable if you don't think Trump is literally Hitler: he didn't want to double the number of infections from possible new exposures.  Yeah, I know, "REEEEE!" and all.

Quote
claiming the virus was contained (https://www.businessinsider.com/five-times-the-trump-administration-downplayed-the-coronavirus-2020-3?international=true&r=US&IR=T)

Quote
"I don't want to downplay anything," Kudlow said before effectively downplaying the true extent of the coronavirus and its momentum. "Worry about the effect on human beings, for heaven's sake. But I'm just saying, let's not overreact. In many ways, America should stay at work."

"We don't actually know what the magnitude of the virus is going to be, although frankly so far it looks relatively contained."
  --Kudlow, Feb 25th -- which, at that time (almost a month ago at this point), it did look relatively contained, and we were less than a month from all the cries of "muh racism" for Trump closing down travel from China on Jan 31st.

Quote
not doing any testing to confirm this claim (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51818627)

-already addressed test kits

Quote
saying that the coronavirus is "Like the flu" (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/stocks-dive-coronavirus-spreads-trump-repeats-risk-covid/story?id=69482971)

-for at least 90%, it is - that number will likely increase with more testing showing more asymptomatic / mild symptomatic cases - really depends on underlying conditions and age (which are linked).

Quote
saying the virus will "Disappear like a miracle" (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-meeting-african-american-leaders/)

-You might want to ask China about that.  No new infections, right?  Right?  Although we should be cautious of a possible second wave.

Quote
not doing any testing to see if it's actually going away (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51875871)

More testing is going to increase the number of infected, not make it appear to be going away (at this point).  This seems to be more an issue of non-communication with outside (state / private) labs.  They should enforce a standard reporting procedure.

Quote
underplaying the amount of (known) infections by saying they were "lower then just about anybody" (https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/11/fact-check-a-list-of-28-ways-trump-and-his-team-have-been-dishonest-about-the-coronavirus/)

not doing any testing to confirm this claim (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/how-many-americans-have-been-tested-coronavirus/607597/)

--Fact check doesn't address how much testing was being done by countries with a total lower than the US but was quick to point out the US was doing less testing than countries with a higher total. 

Testing, again.

Quote
Having a 10 minute speech which turned out to be so wrong that various other departments had to correct it (https://www.businessinsider.nl/white-house-scrambles-to-clarify-details-on-coronavirus-response-2020-3?international=true&r=US)

--looks like a few misreads on the teleprompter if you ask me.  Congrats, I guess?

Quote
Focusing this speech on how you're preventing the disease from entering the country, completely ignoring that the disease literally already is in the country (since January!) and what you really need is more testing.

Funny enough, I think it's already been mentioned that he thought it serious enough to close off China travel, despite whatever he said to try to keep people from panicking.


Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 20, 2020, 12:14:17 pm
It's crazy to watch people, in real time, turn into that character in disaster movies who cares more about some petty political/interpersonal bull**** than the Actual Disaster. I never believed in the military guys in The Stand who cared more about covering up the source of the virus than about stopping it, but it turns out they're a documentary!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 20, 2020, 12:18:14 pm
Then again this forum has been full of climate change denialists for more than a decade so
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 20, 2020, 12:28:08 pm
-You might want to ask China about that.  No new infections, right?

As someone who has literally spent 2 months in my apartment in order to help control the virus, I find that claim pretty insulting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 20, 2020, 01:18:33 pm
While it is a good idea to avoid the spread of lies and misinformation, this is not how it should be done jr2.

 I mean, it's not even like you've pointed out anything I didn't know. You're debunking claims no one on this thread has made. Who cares if the problem with the test kits was due to a manufacturing problem or not? A delay in testing is a still a delay. It's still going to cost lives. Why are you glossing over the fact that the German protocol for testing was released long before the American one? That even without the manufacturing error you are pointing out the US would still have been behind. Why are you ignoring that even once the manufacturing defect was cured that there still is a lack of testing going on in the USA? Why are you posting that the claim that Trump fired the pandemic team is debunked but ignoring the fact that many of them resigned and then Trump failed to hire new people to replace them? No pandemic team is no pandemic team. Why have you quoted that CDC funding was increased, but not quoted why!

Quote
You know, just about every point you make here you glibly throw in "and he didn't test to confirm it!" at the end.  I'm just saying.

Yup, becuase the utter lack of testing is the most important thing here. You can try to defend Trump's baseless claims about having contained the virus all you want (because this isn't about the truth at all for you isn't it? This is about you having an axe to grind against whoever Maddow is), but they remain baseless due to this lack of testing. What does "It looked contained" mean when the Trump administration wasn't even looking?

Quote
Easily explainable if you don't think Trump is literally Hitler: he didn't want to double the number of infections from possible new exposures.  Yeah, I know, "REEEEE!" and all.

Do you even read your own posts at this point.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on March 20, 2020, 05:01:46 pm
He means Rachel Maddow, an MSNBC host who often serves as a convenient scapegoat for where "dem lib'rals" get all their news.

And dear lord yes that statement about the cruise ship was absolute cringe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 20, 2020, 05:16:55 pm
And the cringe continues (https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1241041962871881728)

Reporter: What do you say to the americans out there who are scared?

Trumpet: I'll say to them that you're a terrible reporter
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 20, 2020, 05:18:46 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETkfesaXgAEbbXd?format=jpg&name=900x900)

(https://i.imgflip.com/21aqbc.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 20, 2020, 06:42:36 pm
He means Rachel Maddow, an MSNBC host who often serves as a convenient scapegoat for where "dem lib'rals" get all their news.

I presume it's just a coincidence that google tells me she's the first open lesbian news anchor?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on March 20, 2020, 06:46:51 pm
Oh, a total coincidence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 20, 2020, 08:44:39 pm
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/03/america-is-finally-testing-for-coronavirus-in-significant-volumes/

For a view of the testing that has a grounding in facts rather than propaganda.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on March 21, 2020, 12:46:27 am
My father just emailed me and my sister this youtube vid titled Honest Government Ad | Coronavirus: Flatten The Curve (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hks6Nq7g6P4&feature=youtu.be). It's hilarious and educational! :lol: :cool: :D
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on March 21, 2020, 05:02:25 am
This is what is happening ~20 km from where I live:
http://www.ansa.it/lombardia/notizie/2020/03/18/coronavirus-colonna-mezzi-militari-a-bergamo-con-feretri_3b4e3a18-8467-4185-ad72-2939cc607f66.html

In that photo (taken 3 days ago), an Italian Army truck convoy is transfering corpses from the cemetery of Bergamo (Lombardy's 4th largest city) to other cities because the local crematory is overwhelmed.
I used to travel on that same road almost every saturday night, as one of our favourite pubs is near that place.

Now my area is the most badly hit. A cluster appeared in a nearby valley almost contemporary to the first clusters in Italy, but unlike the other ones it was decided not to lock down that place to avoid shutting down some important industries. Now the situation is out of control, while the first clusters are more or less contained by now.

Local hospitals are full. Bergamo's airport, the third busiest airport in Italy, is now almost exclusively used by Italian Air Force cargo planes transfering patients to hospitals in other regions in bio-containment capsules.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 21, 2020, 05:06:12 am
I was about to post that. A flu doesn't overwhelm a country's healthcare system like that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 21, 2020, 10:44:09 am
This article does a good job of explaining what happened in Italy and the Chinese regions, and what will happen to the US and UK if they continue on their current trajectory (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56)

The short version is that the rate of infection and the rate of people who need intensive care as a result of that infection will overwhelm the amount of intensive care actually available. Refer back to Dysko's posts to see what that loooks like in Italy.

Dutch article about how the virus has spread much faster in the Netherlands then the government responded. Noteworthy points are: Several patients that were having pneunomia and were in the hospital for a week or more later turned out to have the coronavirus (https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2020/03/21/het-virus-kwam-sneller-dan-de-overheid-reageerde-a3994501). The netherlands isn't testing nearly enough either.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 21, 2020, 09:02:01 pm
That top article Joshua posted is well worth the read. Probably the best explanation of why mitigation is a dreadful idea I've read so far.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 22, 2020, 12:51:00 pm
Judging by current statistics I think there is a good chance the US will end up having the worst response in the entire world to this disease. If not, we'll probably be top 5.

NY picked up about 5000 new infections yesterday. Here in NYC we're looking at about one death an hour. Army's looking at setting up field hospitals in stadiums. Witness the true power of The Doubling

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 22, 2020, 01:03:07 pm
The federal government in Germany just announced a general ban on gatherings of more than 2 people, to be enforced by the usual agencies and backed by harsh sanctions (up to 25k €).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 22, 2020, 01:10:36 pm
Went to bass pro the other day to get ready for turkey season...the tinfoil hat folks are stocking up, buying up crazy amounts of ammo. I was still able to get my turkey loads, but they were completely out of 00 anti-Virus shot. :|
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on March 22, 2020, 03:42:22 pm
The federal government in Germany just announced a general ban on gatherings of more than 2 people, to be enforced by the usual agencies and backed by harsh sanctions (up to 25k €).

...how are they working that with families?  Some sort of exemption for parents with children?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 22, 2020, 04:09:36 pm
Families and those living in the same home are exempt. Don't know whether that means anyone in the family is allowed though (like...is a family reunion with 50+ people still ok?). My guess is that it's worded such that the exemption is only for those living in the same domicile.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 22, 2020, 04:32:32 pm
Meanwhile, looks like The Netherlands is on track to make the same mistakes Italy did  :banghead: - The population simply isn't taking the social distancing seriously. Reading Dysko's posts as well as reconstructions of the Italian situation only a month ago and seeing the same thing happening here is not making me too hopeful about the coming weeks. Atleast the place I'm at is enforcing quarentine rules, but I do live in a mental health hospital, so I can't fully expect everyone around me to take care of themselves  :blah:. Am rather frustrated at my housemates at the moment.

NY picked up about 5000 new infections yesterday. Here in NYC we're looking at about one death an hour. Army's looking at setting up field hospitals in stadiums. Witness the true power of The Doubling

Considering that the US was worse at testing then the Netherlands, there will have been people dying of "unidentified lung issues" already to boot :\
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 22, 2020, 04:44:22 pm
In England, we're closing national parks, and generally tutting at people in large groups.

BoJo has mentioned stricter measures if we jolly well don't abide by the social distancing protocols.

I've made sure my "Family Defence measures" are good to go back home so i can defend the Toilet paper and Pasta stockpiles i have cached in my loft.....
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 22, 2020, 05:34:05 pm
The Singapore government has made special arrangements for Singapore Airlines to fly overseas Singaporeans out from most countries affected by covid-19, which includes the UK, where I'm currently studying in.

After having a lengthy discussion with my sister last Friday over whether I should stay in the UK or leave, I concluded that it is more prudent to leave now, before the virus reaches its peak. From the look of things, most schools in the UK will remain shut for quite some time to come - likely beyond the end of the current university semester - and since my on-campus lessons are now being conducted through Discord, there is no concrete reason for me to stay.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 22, 2020, 06:52:17 pm
Yeah, If I had been offered the choice in China, I would have chosen to stay. If I was offered the choice in the UK, I'd be getting the hell out of town. I find it ironic that it's the Western powers who mainly seem to be competing to see who can be the most irresponisble when it comes to protecting against the virus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 23, 2020, 01:23:23 am
Yeah, If I had been offered the choice in China, I would have chosen to stay. If I was offered the choice in the UK, I'd be getting the hell out of town. I find it ironic that it's the Western powers who mainly seem to be competing to see who can be the most irresponisble when it comes to protecting against the virus.


UK wise, (and I work all over it and have seen four corners of it in the last 3 weeks) it seems like the bulk of Joe public are being dippy more than the guys telling them what to do.

(I am being as responsible as practice allows by the way)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 23, 2020, 06:26:02 am
Meanwhile, looks like The Netherlands is on track to make the same mistakes Italy did  :banghead: - The population simply isn't taking the social distancing seriously. Reading Dysko's posts as well as reconstructions of the Italian situation only a month ago and seeing the same thing happening here is not making me too hopeful about the coming weeks. Atleast the place I'm at is enforcing quarentine rules, but I do live in a mental health hospital, so I can't fully expect everyone around me to take care of themselves  :blah:. Am rather frustrated at my housemates at the moment.

NY picked up about 5000 new infections yesterday. Here in NYC we're looking at about one death an hour. Army's looking at setting up field hospitals in stadiums. Witness the true power of The Doubling

Considering that the US was worse at testing then the Netherlands, there will have been people dying of "unidentified lung issues" already to boot :\

Given that The Netherlands have managed to do almost nothing then, you do have to wonder what the **** Bruno Bruins (the Dutch minister in charge of dealing with the virus) was doing to collapse from overwork!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 23, 2020, 06:55:59 am
He did a lot before resigning. He just didn't sleep at night.

Bruins was the minister of public health, so he did a lot in ensuring the logistics, keeping up with the advice of the RIVM (royal institute for public health and enviroment), making regulations, debating those regulations, that sorta thing. It's not like there is a lack of guidelines and a lot has been done to prevent, say, only specific hospitals overflowing whilst others stay empty.

It's just that the dutch government placed a lot more trust in the dutch population wrt following those guidelines then we ourselves deserve. A lot of the virus's spread in Italy had to do with people flaunting the isolation guidelines (see also Dysko's earlier posts) and the same is happnening here. People just aren't listening and the enforcement of guidelines has been lax.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 23, 2020, 07:44:02 am
So the government were trying to do the right thing but the public were being idiots?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 23, 2020, 08:01:22 am
Yes.

Mind you, I don't agree with the government either, I feel like they could be doing more, esp. wrt testing and being harsher about enforcement, but I won't dispute that they are in their eyes trying to do the right thing! It's just that large swathes of the public are acting in a rather callous matter in the face of an epidemic that in the south of the country has already killed more then hundred people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 23, 2020, 10:35:58 am
So basically the same as the UK or US except with halfway competent leadership. Shows why I'm worried about what's going to happen in the UK given that they thought about it and still managed to come up with that herd immunity bull****.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 23, 2020, 10:50:57 am
I'm still utterly flabbergasted by that, particularly as it came directly from the government's chief science advisor. It's like setting someone's house on fire to find out who is fireproof.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 23, 2020, 11:11:36 am
It's like setting someone's house on fire to find out who is fireproof.
Hey now, that test is 100% effective.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 23, 2020, 11:23:55 am
I think this week is gonna get real bad in NYC. Everybody exposed right before we started taking it seriously should be breaking with symptoms soon.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 23, 2020, 12:27:07 pm
Stay safe batooter. Heard Ohio issued a shelter-in-place, which is honestly surprising given the relatively low numbers of confirmed cases there. Good for them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 23, 2020, 12:51:37 pm
I have made the necessary arrangements and will be leaving the UK Wednesday evening. I should touch down in Singapore on Thursday evening...just before an additional requirement of submitting a health declaration form kicks in.

I have no lessons on Wednesday and Thursday, and my main online stomping grounds are unlikely to be seriously affected. I even managed to snag a window seat with an empty adjacent middle seat on an Airbus A380-800, which will be my first (and maybe only) time flying this aircraft. Things are looking good so far.

Stay safe batooter. Heard Ohio issued a shelter-in-place, which is honestly surprising given the relatively low numbers of confirmed cases there. Good for them.

They know how badly it can go. It went south for Italy, and it's quickly going south for both the UK and the rest of US. The fact that the BBC is now reporting that the NHS stands a chance of being overwhelmed, when just a few weeks ago, the government expressed confidence that they are ready to handle the situation, is moderately unsettling.

So basically the same as the UK or US except with halfway competent leadership. Shows why I'm worried about what's going to happen in the UK given that they thought about it and still managed to come up with that herd immunity bull****.

Does herd immunity even work in this case?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 23, 2020, 01:14:46 pm
Does herd immunity even work in this case?

I guess it would in theory...AFAIK there's been no evidence of either re-infection or mutation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on March 23, 2020, 01:30:47 pm
No new information here, but a really good breakdown of the whole virus thing:

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 23, 2020, 09:22:03 pm
I guess it would in theory...AFAIK there's been no evidence of either re-infection or mutation.

So far we have 400,000 cases worldwide. Herd immunity requires about a hundred times that number. I wouldn't want to roll the dice that an RNA virus (which is a kind famous for a higher mutation rate) won't mutate into something nastier if our entire data set composes of 1% of the cases we would end up with.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 24, 2020, 01:34:13 am
Well the UK is grounded 🇬🇧😂👆

I shall continue driving and working as things not exploding is quite key to the country not exploding.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: soilder198 on March 24, 2020, 01:50:22 am
This thread has grown quite a bit since I last posted.

After reading the discussions here and elsewhere, I have only one thing to say.

The Human species has an immediate need for a medical, technological revolution in terms of how we eradicate pathogenic diseases. Our species is incredibly intelligent, not just singularly but also as a collective, and I cannot emphasize this enough. There is no doubt in my mind that we will one day discover a technology that will rapidly and decisively destroy infectious diseases of all types while harming the body minimally. What that technology will end up being, I have not the faintest idea, but I know it will happen.

Anyhow, Coronavirus is a serious infectant. Significant precautions need be taken.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 24, 2020, 03:04:37 am
****ing incredible (https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-woman-husband-died-chloroquine-warns-not-to-trust-trump-2020-3?utm_source=reddit.com&r=US&IR=T)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 24, 2020, 04:44:28 am
My flight tomorrow was cancelled and I've been automatically rebooked on the next flight out, which is 85 minutes later, and I don't have a choice of seats. I'm guessing there weren't enough takers for the first- and business-class seats on the original flight since it is an A380. The new flight is a Boeing 777-300ER, which is basically the Subach to the A380's Prometheus - a plane I've sat on several times and have no particular feelings for or against it.

On the upside, those extra 85 minutes might be worth something; I just don't know what.

A look at some flight trackers online seems to indicate that a lot of flights are being cancelled tomorrow.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 24, 2020, 08:33:09 am
Oh bloody hell americans

Outer Worlds was not supposed to be a documentary.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 24, 2020, 12:57:23 pm
The federal government in Germany just announced a general ban on gatherings of more than 2 people, to be enforced by the usual agencies and backed by harsh sanctions (up to 25k €).

the same rule is now in place in NL
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: castor on March 24, 2020, 02:09:18 pm
There is no doubt in my mind that we will one day discover a technology that will rapidly and decisively destroy infectious diseases of all types while harming the body minimally. What that technology will end up being, I have not the faintest idea, but I know it will happen.
It will be a long road though. Fighting space aliens would probably be easier, at least when it comes to distinguishing a friend from foe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on March 24, 2020, 06:54:46 pm
The only "cure" for this kind of pathogen would be to devise a really quick way to test vaccines, in order to turn 18 months of trials and checks into 18 days or something. As far as I can tell, this is complete science fiction.

So no, we will suffer this for many decades still, if not centuries.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 24, 2020, 07:01:26 pm
Grand Tour PSA:


A new measure to handle the second wave of cases (which are mostly imports) was announced by the Singapore government earlier today: any one coming in from the US or UK from Thursday onwards has to serve their 14 days' stay home notice in a hotel, with all expenses paid for by the government and arrangements made to ensure that we do not go absolutely anywhere for 14 consecutive days, not even outside the room we are assigned to. I have reason to believe it is not as glamorous as it may sound.

Meanwhile, I checked my flight seating and saw that it was a middle seat, so I switched to an aisle seat that is nearer to the stern of the plane but further away from the bassinets versus my original pre-assigned seat. There is one remaining window seat but I'm hesitant to take it because I don't fancy having to manoeuvre myself around someone whenever I need to use the toilet on a 13-hour flight. On the other hand, I haven't had a window seat in a long time; in the off-chance it's still available after I wake up tomorrow, I might end up taking it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on March 24, 2020, 09:20:38 pm
Clarkson must be disappointed that, in light of social distancing requirements, all of his producers are standing well outside of punching range.

[edit]

Let's go ahead and expand this post, because an earlier reply by Joshua deserves some additional discussion.

Oh bloody hell americans

Outer Worlds was not supposed to be a documentary.

In one of my public admin courses, the question necessarily comes up, "How much [money] is a human life worth?"  From the perspective of morality and ethics, its a question that's somewhere between difficult (if you favor a utilitarian system of ethics) to absurd (if you favor just about any other system).  Even in grad school, students don't ever have a quick answer for the question.  In public administration, though, you need an answer to that question, since if you find yourself heading a government agency and a **** up results in one or more deaths, you'll need to know how what might constitute reasonable monetary compensation for those who survive the dead.

And the precedent available by way of American civil jurisprudence (wrongful death lawsuits and the like) says that a human life is worth about $20,000 to $30,000.  There's lots of high-profile exceptions for public figures, but for your average working shmuck, $20k - $30k is the value of a life.  Paltry and despicable, yes, but let's just keep that $30k figure in mind for a moment.

If half of the United States population gets infected with COVID-19, and one percent of the infected die, then by the end of the outbreak, that will be ~1.65 million dead.  Put a pin in that number too.

Right now, the current COVID-19 economic relief package being debated in Congress is for $1.5 trillion, and if the crisis drags on longer, further relief packages may be necessary.  Getting really morbid, how many deaths would it take--at a value of $30k each--to amount to a greater cost than $1.5 trillion?  Fifty million.

Someone's looking at the actuarial tables and thinking to themselves that it's cheaper to let millions die by trying to return to business-as-usual by Easter than it is to continue with current (or more extreme) containment measures and provide the economic relief that those measures necessitate.  And given the figures at the head of the federal government, making or rubber-stamping decisions, I suspect that kind of ultra-simplified math, stripped of any human context is quite appealing.

So "Back to business by Easter," easily translates to, "Working class lives aren't worth saving."
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 25, 2020, 05:46:14 am
Someone's looking at the actuarial tables and thinking to themselves that it's cheaper to let millions die by trying to return to business-as-usual by Easter than it is to continue with current (or more extreme) containment measures and provide the economic relief that those measures necessitate.  And given the figures at the head of the federal government, making or rubber-stamping decisions, I suspect that kind of ultra-simplified math, stripped of any human context is quite appealing.

Thing I'd like to point out is that even if you're a jr2 and go like "hey as long as I don't die I'll save money in the long run", it should be noted that this back of the napkin calculation isn't actually correct when medical systems get overwhelmed and everything treatable and curable (like, for example, corona in 35 year olds) suddenly becomes deadly. The "1% fatality rate" assumes that everyone who gets corona can have access to medical care. If you don't, a 35 year old will die just as easily as an 80 year old. Look at italy: There's plenty of people in the 20-40 age group, the one said to have a high survival chance, in ICUs right now.

Hence me referencing Outer Worlds where in the first town "the plague" that is killing people of all ages is just the flu, but it's not being treated becuase the company doesn't give a ****.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on March 25, 2020, 09:33:51 am
The only "cure" for this kind of pathogen would be to devise a really quick way to test vaccines, in order to turn 18 months of trials and checks into 18 days or something. As far as I can tell, this is complete science fiction.

So no, we will suffer this for many decades still, if not centuries.

Doubtful.  SARS-CoV-2 will undoubtedly pop up here and there for the forseeable future, but so far mutagenicity is low, unlike rhinoviruses and other cold-causing coronaviruses.  A vaccine is likely within 12-24 months, and uptake will likely be high.

In the meantime, we could reduce this thing to tiny pockets and flares entirely if we literally shut down all non-essential human interaction for four weeks (six or eight to be cautious if essential movement is not strictly controlled and tested).  Infectious period is approximately 14 days, and it takes 4-11 to develop symptoms after infection.  Preliminary data suggests it can survive at infectious levels on some surfaces under some climate conditions for 2+ weeks.  30 days, combined with aggressive testing and isolation of essential services and supply chain personnel, would stop it in its tracks.

Instead, Trump wants the US back to normal interaction by Easter.  The United States is ****ed - they had to act en masse last week to stop the consequences of exponential growth and didn't.  So, probably, is the UK (too little too late there, and the bat**** initial idea of let the healthy get sick should honestly lead to the so-called "brains" behind it being dragged blindfolded in front of a wall).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 25, 2020, 10:06:04 am
I suspect Luis was speaking about viruses in general rather than Covid in particular.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on March 25, 2020, 10:41:26 am
Meanwhile, Poland will have the presidential elections going off according to the schedule, so May 10th. That's a big doubt from me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 25, 2020, 11:04:28 am
The US remains on track to easily have the highest number of confirmed cases of any country... and that's without extensive testing happening. Based on current charts we've probably already passed Italy and are aiming for China's all time record.

It's pretty much guaranteed that I will either get COVID-19 or someone in my immediate family will. There is a non-zero chance that someone close to me will die from it. But hey.. Trump's not literally Hitler and the GOP agreed to hand out some money in May (which totally isn't socialism)... so we've got that going for us, I guess. Oh and all the churches are supposed to be packed for Easter in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 25, 2020, 11:31:39 am
As we all know easter is about sacrificing your grandparents to Nurgle.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 25, 2020, 11:34:05 am
Well, what do you expect in a world where with 2,000 cases in their country, the slum gangs of Rio act more sensibly than most governments did (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/25/brazil-rio-gangs-coronavirus)?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 25, 2020, 03:13:22 pm
I feel like this illustrates the difference between the belgian approach and dutch approach quite nicely (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/25/shop-shuts-belgian-half-over-covid-19-but-keeps-dutch-half-open).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Firesteel on March 25, 2020, 04:31:34 pm
I'm waiting to see what the numbers here in California look like over the next couple weeks because as of right now we're doing fairly well thanks to the shelter in place order that came down last week. The real questions are going to be how long is the state willing to shut things down and if they will try and freeze the economy (at least within their power since the federal government is doing **** all)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 25, 2020, 05:35:53 pm
City emergency wards and morgues will both be full by end of week. They're bringing in refrigerator trucks for the dead. Multi-day wait for testing, if you're willing to stand in line from 6 AM to 6 PM. People are dying in their beds while doctors are away, dying in the ER waiting room while trying to get a bed. One 38 year old died while they were trying to call his mother for a last message. Turned out she was in the hospital for coronavirus too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: IronBeer on March 25, 2020, 07:13:23 pm
It's almost as if people just don't understand exponential growth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on March 26, 2020, 12:48:18 am
Here in my hometown of Washington, D.C., a citywide lockdown (https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/public-global-health/489216-dc-to-close-nonessential-businesses) began almost 4 hours ago. (https://www.natlawreview.com/article/district-columbia-orders-march-25-2020-shutdown-non-essential-services-and-prohibits) Only essential businesses are allowed to remain open. I work as a cashier at my local supermarket only 2 blocks away from my apartment and supermarkets are an essential business. I don't leave home except to go work at the supermarket and then I go straight home and I don't go anywhere else. At least I don't have to worry about food shopping during this crisis. And all of us working at the supermarket are taking every precaution against the coronavirus: wearing gloves, washing our hands and windexing every surface regularly, telling customers to stand at least 6 feet from everyone else and pointing to the new signs saying the same thing.

There's still no paper towels or toilet paper in the store, though. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about getting more of those just yet.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 26, 2020, 08:57:44 am
No word about toilet paper shortages here in Italy that I know of, is that a US thing?
We did get hand sanitizer shortages though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 26, 2020, 10:05:09 am
Yet another story of the US's failure to test people (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52019509). How the hell does someone who as told by her family doctor that she might have the virus still not know two weeks later!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 26, 2020, 10:23:35 am
The American social safety net is gone and the private sector has (of course) absolutely no incentive or responsibility to do anything but extract the maximum profit from its workers before they die. Amazon is literally crowdsourcing pay for sick leave, presumably because their ideology of “turn no profit, just reduce costs” has them totally unable to provide for their people.

This is the destination Reagan set a course for. If anyone still believes in the deregulated neoliberal America after this...but who are we kidding. Of course they will.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 26, 2020, 08:12:22 pm
And the cringe continues (https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1241041962871881728)

Reporter: What do you say to the americans out there who are scared?

Trumpet: I'll say to them that you're a terrible reporter

Maybe you want to, oh, I dunno, provide a little context? Kind of effing important


He means Rachel Maddow, an MSNBC host who often serves as a convenient scapegoat for where "dem lib'rals" get all their news.

I presume it's just a coincidence that google tells me she's the first open lesbian news anchor?

I honestly had no idea.  I just know that she was hell bent on the Russian collusion story for 3 years straight.

Judging by current statistics I think there is a good chance the US will end up having the worst response in the entire world to this disease. If not, we'll probably be top 5.

NY picked up about 5000 new infections yesterday. Here in NYC we're looking at about one death an hour. Army's looking at setting up field hospitals in stadiums. Witness the true power of The Doubling



I read that NY is 10x worse than the rest of the nation at the moment.  Hopefully it didn't get spread too far, some other state governors are issuing mandatory 14 day quarantine for visitors from NY.

I guess it would in theory...AFAIK there's been no evidence of either re-infection or mutation.

So far we have 400,000 cases worldwide. Herd immunity requires about a hundred times that number. I wouldn't want to roll the dice that an RNA virus (which is a kind famous for a higher mutation rate) won't mutate into something nastier if our entire data set composes of 1% of the cases we would end up with.

Good news on that front, at least for now (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-research-suggests-vaccines-developed-090056456.html?guccounter=1)

****ing incredible (https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-woman-husband-died-chloroquine-warns-not-to-trust-trump-2020-3?utm_source=reddit.com&r=US&IR=T)

Let me make a comparison: If I were to tell you that taking a shot of alcohol would help with a gum infection, and you went home and chugged an entire bottle of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol and died, would that be my fault?

The details are: they took fish tank cleaner, which uses Chloroquine Phosphate, not the Hydroxychloroquine used in the malaria drug, AND, they took IIRC 1.5x the lethal dose ~3,000 mg?  Correct dose for COVID would be 500 mg, lethal is 2,000 mg or so I recall.  See https://www.rt.com/usa/483908-media-blame-trump-chloroquine/]here (http://) for more on that.

The only "cure" for this kind of pathogen would be to devise a really quick way to test vaccines, in order to turn 18 months of trials and checks into 18 days or something. As far as I can tell, this is complete science fiction.

So no, we will suffer this for many decades still, if not centuries.

The reason it takes so long is they have to monitor for negative effects or at least that's what I've read and it makes sense.

As we all know easter is about sacrificing your grandparents to Nurgle.

The concern is that we will be heading into much worse territory if society starts to collapse.  People need to eat and have a roof + heat which requires fuel, electric, and food, which requires paying other people who also need those things.  :rolleyes:  If we get to hyperinflation and wheelbarrows of cash you could start seeing more dead from the effects of economics than from the virus (depending on how the virus goes of course).

Yet another story of the US's failure to test people (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52019509). How the hell does someone who as told by her family doctor that she might have the virus still not know two weeks later!

As for testing, apparently this was a bipartisan, multi-administration blunder.

Bloomberg, 2020-3-18 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/hospital-makes-face-masks-covid-19-shields-from-office-supplies):

Quote
The national stockpile used to be somewhat more robust. In 2006, Congress provided supplemental funds to add 104 million N95 masks and 52 million surgical masks in an effort to prepare for a flu pandemic. But after the H1N1 influenza outbreak in 2009, which triggered a nationwide shortage of masks and caused a 2- to 3-year backlog orders for the N95 variety, the stockpile distributed about three-quarters of its inventory and didn’t build back the supply (https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/hs.2016.0129).

As for South Korea: they learned their lesson from their outbreak of MERS and have a system in place, see here (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51836898).

Why we failed at first on testing (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-testing-specialrep-idUSKBN2153BW) (Reuters):

Quote
The administration of President Donald Trump was tripped up by government rules and conventions, former officials and public health experts say. Instead of drafting the private sector early on to develop tests, as South Korea did, U.S. health officials relied, as is customary, on test kits prepared by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, some of which proved faulty. Then, sticking to its time-consuming vetting procedures, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration didn’t approve tests other than the CDC’s until Feb. 29, more than five weeks after discussions with outside labs had begun.

Meanwhile, in the absence of enough kits, the CDC insisted for weeks on narrow criteria for testing, recommending it only when a person had recently been to China or other hot spots or had contact with someone known to be infected. As a result, the federal government failed to screen an untold number of Americans and missed opportunities to contain the spread, clinicians and public health experts say.

South Korea took a risk, releasing briskly vetted tests, then circling back later to spot check their effectiveness. {{The Elon Musk approach}}  By contrast, the United States’ FDA said it wanted to ensure, upfront, that the tests were accurate before they went out to millions of Americans.

“There are always opportunities to learn from situations like this one,” FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn, who has been on the job only three months, told Reuters. “But one thing I will stand firm on: We cannot compromise on the quality of the tests because what would be worse than no tests at all is wildly inaccurate test results.”  {{Which is why you spot-check them, you obfuscating dope - learn to chew gum and walk at the same time}}

In a statement, CDC spokesman Benjamin Haynes said, “This process has not gone as smoothly as we would have liked.” But he said “more and more state labs have come online, increasing our public health system’s ability to detect and respond to cases.”

Bombarded by criticism amid a re-election campaign, Trump vowed on Friday to ramp up production of test kits in partnership with private companies and to make the diagnostic tests more widely available at hospitals and in-store parking lots. This week, the FDA said more than 35 universities, hospitals and lab companies had begun running their own tests, under the agency’s revised policy.


The American social safety net is gone and the private sector has (of course) absolutely no incentive or responsibility to do anything but extract the maximum profit from its workers before they die. Amazon is literally crowdsourcing pay for sick leave, presumably because their ideology of “turn no profit, just reduce costs” has them totally unable to provide for their people.

This is the destination Reagan set a course for. If anyone still believes in the deregulated neoliberal America after this...but who are we kidding. Of course they will.

Plox 2 examine those regs in action at the CDC and FDA ^
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 26, 2020, 08:46:30 pm
Yet another story of the US's failure to test people (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52019509). How the hell does someone who as told by her family doctor that she might have the virus still not know two weeks later!

As for testing, apparently this was a bipartisan, multi-administration blunder.

Bloomberg, 2020-3-18 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/hospital-makes-face-masks-covid-19-shields-from-office-supplies):

Quote
The national stockpile used to be somewhat more robust. In 2006, Congress provided supplemental funds to add 104 million N95 masks and 52 million surgical masks in an effort to prepare for a flu pandemic. But after the H1N1 influenza outbreak in 2009, which triggered a nationwide shortage of masks and caused a 2- to 3-year backlog orders for the N95 variety, the stockpile distributed about three-quarters of its inventory and didn’t build back the supply (https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/hs.2016.0129).

What the hell does an article about masks have to do with testing? Well apart from the standard practice of "if all else fails, blame Obama".
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 26, 2020, 10:34:46 pm
The only statistic needed to refute anything anyone says about the US government doing a good job is that the US is about to (or possibly already has at the time of posting this) passed China's all time record high of confirmed cases. The US had a nearly 2 month warning that this was happening in the world.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on March 27, 2020, 01:02:51 am
For weeks, the Canadian province of Alberta (population 4 million ish) has had a higher per-capita testing rate than the entire United States of America, despite the fact that the US has [had?] the highest pandemic readiness score in the world going into this.

A lot of Americans are dying or going to die for no goddamn reason other than the current administration was woefully unqualified and unprepared to handle a crisis.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 27, 2020, 02:10:39 am
Maybe you want to, oh, I dunno, provide a little context? Kind of effing important

I don't know what's funnier: That you think Trump's inability to contain his anger at reporters calling him on his bull**** is excusable, or that you think this entire exchange makes Trump look better.

The basic problem you have, jr2, is that you insist on treating Trump as if he were just someone who plays a successful businessman on the TV. He isn't, he's your gods-damned President, and when he assumed that office, he also assumed a level of responsibility for his statements far in excess of that granted to a reality-TV person. That he continues to disavow responsibility is damning for him, and that you insist on believing that he bears no responsibility for the consequences arising from his statements is damning you.

Quote
I read that NY is 10x worse than the rest of the nation at the moment.  Hopefully it didn't get spread too far, some other state governors are issuing mandatory 14 day quarantine for visitors from NY.

Here's a hint: covid is already everywhere in the US. Issuing a quarantine on people coming from NY will do literally nothing.

Quote
Let me make a comparison: If I were to tell you that taking a shot of alcohol would help with a gum infection, and you went home and chugged an entire bottle of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol and died, would that be my fault?

You are not literally the President of the United States making public statements about possible cures during a massive public health crisis though.

Or do you think that that context does suddenly not matter?

Quote
The concern is that we will be heading into much worse territory if society starts to collapse.  People need to eat and have a roof + heat which requires fuel, electric, and food, which requires paying other people who also need those things.  :rolleyes:  If we get to hyperinflation and wheelbarrows of cash you could start seeing more dead from the effects of economics than from the virus (depending on how the virus goes of course).

Translated: The concern is that, after this crisis is over, you will end up with a system of social security and public health care comparable to EU states, which means that rich people will be getting less rich and employers won't have as much of a hold over their employees via health insurance plans than they do now.
We've been telling you for decades that your system is bad and ready to collapse, and now that it's being tested for the first time, we can see that every single one of those problems could have been avoided if you had listened even once.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 27, 2020, 03:40:07 am
I like how it's the US economical system that'll collapse under the strain of the country with the highest GDP in the world (both in total and per capita) taking far reaching measures to combat a virus, whilst a myriad of other countries with arguably far more fragile economies think it's worth the risk - or you know, took those measures far earlier before things got out of hand. Countries that put far less power into the executive then the US does have done so without catastrophic consequences.

And something must have changed considerably in the US between the 30s and now, becuase the Great Depression didn't have a fatality rate like that at all (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/great-depression-had-little-effect-on-death-rates-46713514/). The US was able to temporarily change it's entire economy to a wartime economy and back in a span of 10 years without triggering a societal collapse too!

But more importantly, this assumes that the deaths of millions of people as a result of a virus that's allowed to spread unchecked (assuming a flat 1% mortality rate and not the cost of overwhelmed medical services) does not itself trigger deep upsetting societal changes.

The disgusting aspect of the "it's okay if people die, the economy is more important" stance is that the people saying it are doing so in the assumption that they themselves wouldn't die. It's never been about "saving lives in the long run", it's just the good old "I don't care what happens as long as I get to do business as usual".

Quote from: The E
I don't know what's funnier: That you think Trump's inability to contain his anger at reporters calling him on his bull**** is excusable, or that you think this entire exchange makes Trump look better.

Quote from: Karajorma
What the hell does an article about masks have to do with testing

It's jr2's classic "i dont even read or watch the stuff i link" approach to debating.

Quote from: jr2
Let me make a comparison: If I were to tell you that taking a shot of alcohol would help with a gum infection, and you went home and chugged an entire bottle of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol and died, would that be my fault?

Alcohol doesn't help with gum infection to begin with. You told a lie to make yourself seem smarter then you actually are. The difference between you and trump is that you aren't adressing the nation in your position of authority whilst a doctor is standing behind you.

Your proposed cure has zero chance of actually helping (and in fact it makes things worse (https://www.perio.org/consumer/alcohol-negative-effect-on-gum-health)), so you would've failed in your responsibility to both not tell lies and either give correct medical advice or defer to someone who can. My biggest mistake here would be to blindly and desperately trust you, a person who has proved time and time again that he can not be trusted, but I do feel that you being fundementally untrustworthy is the worse offense here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 27, 2020, 05:07:00 am
Duke Nukem with an important message (https://nitter.net/JSJisDuke/status/1243299559968661504)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 27, 2020, 07:09:19 am
Hey remember what happened the last time the US economy collapsed?

That's right, Obama became president.

Clearly a disaster we can't allow to happen again.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 27, 2020, 07:21:26 am
BoJo has confirmed he's one of the infected.

Nothing will change.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 27, 2020, 07:31:26 am
He's just doing his part. Gotta get that herd immunity up!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on March 27, 2020, 08:07:52 am
Meanwhile, on March 7th, one of Polish gynecologists returned from Austria. With no testing or quarantine measures for people coming from abroad being in place, this person later turned out to be infected and as of March 19th is hospitalised with severe syndroms. Currently it's estimated that since he returned, he worked in two clinics and one hospital, and had contact with over 140 patients and an unknown amount of other people.

He might be responsible for what accounts to nearly half of current confirmed coronavirus cases in Poland, not to mention contamination of three medical facilities, one of which is a major one, and an unknown number of other people.

F*ck. (edit: lol didn't know that'd be censored out)


Clearly a disaster we can't allow to happen again.

That caused me to look up the outcome of Obamacare. I believe US citizens would agree with you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 27, 2020, 08:18:01 am
It's true, the US is much off worse now that insurers are now no longer allowed to reject coverage based on a pre-existing condition during the time of a pandemic where people with pre-existing conditions are more vulnerable.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 27, 2020, 08:43:52 am
You know what I'm very bored so let's just read Jr2's post properly.

****ing incredible (https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-woman-husband-died-chloroquine-warns-not-to-trust-trump-2020-3?utm_source=reddit.com&r=US&IR=T)

Let me make a comparison: If I were to tell you that taking a shot of alcohol would help with a gum infection, and you went home and chugged an entire bottle of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol and died, would that be my fault?

The details are: they took fish tank cleaner, which uses Chloroquine Phosphate, not the Hydroxychloroquine used in the malaria drug, AND, they took IIRC 1.5x the lethal dose ~3,000 mg?  Correct dose for COVID would be 500 mg, lethal is 2,000 mg or so I recall.  See https://www.rt.com/usa/483908-media-blame-trump-chloroquine for more on that.

I mean I could point out the irony of you going MADdow RUSSIA and then linking the russian state's propaganda network in the same post, but let's not focus on that. I should probably also not focus on how the article you linked doesn't actually contain any new information compared to my article, just some extra tweets by ben shapiro whose arguments you poorly copied, or that both articles note that statements by the president have lead up to people doing stupid things. We could probably argue back and forth about whose more the fool, the fool or the fools who follow him.

Let's focus on how you know the correct dose for COVID treatment. As both articles point out, there's been no clinical trails done, so let's figure out how you know better then anyone else what the best way to treat COVID is.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2020, 08:51:03 am
BoJo is CoPo
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2020, 09:31:01 am
And lmao @ anyone who believes an economic downturn is going to do more harm than three million dead Americans
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 27, 2020, 09:43:34 am
Guys it's fine. jr2 insists that the White House has this outbreak under control. The administration has done nothing wrong. It's probably part of the plan the the US has the highest number of confirmed cases anywhere in the world. (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries) It's definitely not a problem that the virus has been confirmed in every single state and territory or that the number of confirmed cases is actually going to keep speeding up based on the graphs. (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)

It's going to take me possibly my whole lifetime to understand how a cult of personality can take an otherwise logical, intelligent human being like jr2 and convince him that one man can do no wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on March 27, 2020, 10:17:20 am
And lmao @ anyone who believes an economic downturn is going to do more harm than three million dead Americans

We're running out of ways to continue further concentrating wealth in the hands of the already-wealthy, so we're down to just killing the poors letting the poors die.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on March 27, 2020, 11:16:18 am
And lmao @ anyone who believes an economic downturn is going to do more harm than three million dead Americans

Exactly.

Trump and his MAGAts don't appear to understand that the current choices are:
1.  Maintaining mitigation measures, keeping as many people alive as possible and preventing healthcare collapse, but enduring an accompanying economic collapse, OR
2.  Letting a lot of people die and having an even worse economic collapse.

There is no way to staving of a major economic collapse.  That ship has sailed.  The question now is how many people do you allow to die or get sick and make that even worse.

On a separate note, I spent yesterday cackling at the notion that Trump wants to put troops on the CDN-USA border to prevent people crossing into the US.  Dude, NO SANE PERSON (who is not part of the essential supply chain movement that has been allowed to continue) is contemplating going into the United States right now across the northern border.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 27, 2020, 11:21:01 am
Since I posted the link to the statistics site about two hours ago, the number of confirmed cases in the US has risen by 6000.

Thisisfine.gif
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 27, 2020, 11:31:24 am
(https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.upp-prod-eu.s3.amazonaws.com%2F29015092-6fab-11ea-89df-41bea055720b?fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=1260)

yup, fine (source (https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest))
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on March 27, 2020, 11:40:20 am
For those who didn't notice, the graph The E posted has a log scale on the Y-axis.  While China and Italy trended off the exponential path, the US is very much still in trouble.

We should all aspire to be South Korea or Japan.  Japan is remarkable - they have a huge upside-down demographic pyramid, and yet their case and mortality rates are incredibly low.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on March 27, 2020, 11:44:20 am
What I actually see in jr2's posts isn't blind faith in some Trump deity, but simply countering some overexaggerated points of criticism (if not outright false but I'm not keen on going into details). Yeah sure, Trump and his administration are Bad, but does that anyhow facilitate assigning every single Bad thing that happens to him?

Just as I'd like to throw compost at the image of current Polish ruling party, because I believe they continued ruthlessly destroying our country's economy, voter awareness, social rules and standards, and the minds of the youth for the partisan benefit in power and wealth - from where their predecessors left, I must admit that within all of the **** that they poured out for the nation to bear, there were some... Not as negative as expected effects, and there were at least a couple positive laws passed. Doesn't matter if that's unexpected results of oppressive laws or actual moments of good faith towards the people.


@Batutta: Depends who is these 3 millions. I wonder if this event is going to remind to people the actual reason for respecting and helping the elderly to stay in our society comfortably for as long as possible. Not pity or morality, the actual pragmatic reason.

For all my hopes that it doesn't get to such ridiculous numbers, I think that may be the last drop that would get the US society to grab the pitchforks and rip apart their corrupt government and the self-servient, monopolistic enterprises... figuratively rip apart, that is.


@BlueFlames: This is one of the slogans that I can't actually comprehend in any way. Just look at it. If the Poor would not be Poor if not for the evil Rich that are stealing their fruits of labor...  Then there's absolutely no reason for the Rich to kill these Poor let these Poor die. Because when Poor are allowed to die, the Rich are losing income.

Okay, you might say. But when the Poor become elderly or ill, they need to have money invested into them in the form of medical services to bring their wealth output back to normal levels, which might be even totally impossible anyway, right? So there's preventitive medicine. The Rich would want to not lose income because of the Poor becoming inefficient too early and to not have to invest wealth into them to get them back up to good output levels, and we all know that you need to use prevention because it's much cheaper and less troublesome than healing people later on. So actual medical prevention is more profitable for the Rich...

Then also count in the fact that less overworked and scared of losing income people seem to have actual better efficiency in creating wealth that can be stolen by the Rich, as Microsoft proved in Japan by shortening the work day to 6 hours (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/04/microsoft-japan-four-day-work-week-productivity) and profiting from it, IIRC.

So where's the "Rich want Poor dead" theme?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 27, 2020, 11:52:32 am
Japan is remarkable - they have a huge upside-down demographic pyramid, and yet their case and mortality rates are incredibly low.

Japan is not testing at *nearly* the same rate as South Korea. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-testing/japan-uses-just-a-fraction-of-its-coronavirus-testing-capacity-idUSKBN2150ZR) Or, err, at all.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2020, 12:05:20 pm
@Batutta: Depends who is these 3 millions.

Hmmmmm
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 27, 2020, 01:09:45 pm
For those who didn't notice, the graph The E posted has a log scale on the Y-axis.  While China and Italy trended off the exponential path, the US is very much still in trouble.

This explains why the Singapore government is still putting in control measures - they must have seen a graph similar to this and know that the country is still heading straight into a storm.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: DefCynodont119 on March 27, 2020, 01:35:12 pm
@BlueFlames: This is one of the slogans that I can't actually comprehend in any way. Just look at it. If the Poor would not be Poor if not for the evil Rich that are stealing their fruits of labor...  Then there's absolutely no reason for the Rich to kill these Poor let these Poor die. Because when Poor are allowed to die, the Rich are losing income.

Okay, you might say. But when the Poor become elderly or ill, they need to have money invested into them in the form of medical services to bring their wealth output back to normal levels, which might be even totally impossible anyway, right? So there's preventative medicine. The Rich would want to not lose income because of the Poor becoming inefficient too early and to not have to invest wealth into them to get them back up to good output levels, and we all know that you need to use prevention because it's much cheaper and less troublesome than healing people later on. So actual medical prevention is more profitable for the Rich...

Then also count in the fact that less overworked and scared of losing income people seem to have actual better efficiency in creating wealth that can be stolen by the Rich, as Microsoft proved in Japan by shortening the work day to 6 hours (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/04/microsoft-japan-four-day-work-week-productivity) and profiting from it, IIRC.

So where's the "Rich want Poor dead" theme?

It's cuz a lot of the rich people in the US of A don't understand economics, And straight-up don't know or believe any of that "commie stuff" you just said.

There is nothing American capitalism wants more then Instant gratification, It doesn't want to make money, it wants to Feel like it's making money, it thinks that less poor = more money for rich, it thinks that literal pyramid scams are "Multi level Markets", it increases housing costs without increasing wages; it does not "play ruthlessly to win it all"- it is an angry toddler who screams until it gets corporate tax cuts, ice cream, and a pony.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2020, 01:40:34 pm
We are beating China. We are winning. We have the most cases, huge cases. Beautiful hospital wards, packed wall to wall. The doctors are doing a great job.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on March 27, 2020, 05:00:52 pm
When people talk about "prioritizing the economy":

(https://media.giphy.com/media/gIqusaeYxgSiY/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mpez on March 27, 2020, 05:21:48 pm
We are beating China. We are winning. We have the most cases, huge cases. Beautiful hospital wards, packed wall to wall. The doctors are doing a great job.

I think memes are the only thing keeping me sane right now. The most messed up thing with this whole situation is that children hospitals are banning/planning to ban all visits in my country. Which means that if my baby girl got infected and was hospitalized, I wouldn't be able to see her. That gives me nightmares.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on March 27, 2020, 06:13:19 pm
Trump:

"This— whatever they want to call it. You can call it a germ, you can call it a flu, you can call it a virus. You can call it many different names. I'm not sure anybody even knows what it is."

This is the man at the head of the United States government and key decision maker in the pandemic response.  He has more ability to get instant, accurate, and meaningful information than literally any other person on planet Earth.

For anyone who shares Trump's confusion, COVID-19 is the syndrome caused by the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, which is related to the SARS-CoV-1 coronavirus that caused the SARS outbreak 17 years ago.  You can literally Google this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 27, 2020, 06:43:02 pm
https://www.corriere.it/politica/20_marzo_26/the-real-death-toll-for-covid-19-is-at-least-4-times-the-official-numbers-b5af0edc-6eeb-11ea-925b-a0c3cdbe1130.shtml
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 27, 2020, 06:44:09 pm
Informative video on logarithmic scale as it relates to trends in covid-19 data.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 27, 2020, 07:22:00 pm
https://www.corriere.it/politica/20_marzo_26/the-real-death-toll-for-covid-19-is-at-least-4-times-the-official-numbers-b5af0edc-6eeb-11ea-925b-a0c3cdbe1130.shtml

Couldn't the difference also be explained as people who died of other causes because the health service was stretched dealing with Covid-19?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 28, 2020, 12:43:29 am
This at least made me smile a bit.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 28, 2020, 02:14:53 am
https://www.corriere.it/politica/20_marzo_26/the-real-death-toll-for-covid-19-is-at-least-4-times-the-official-numbers-b5af0edc-6eeb-11ea-925b-a0c3cdbe1130.shtml

Couldn't the difference also be explained as people who died of other causes because the health service was stretched dealing with Covid-19?

Sure, but as the article points out, there were quite a lot of deaths that were not tested for COVID before or after people died; As the article points out, the number of deaths seen there is in line with the assumption that about 1% of all people infected will die.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 28, 2020, 03:50:55 am
Yeah, I'm just saying that I'd rather we didn't leap to conclusions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 28, 2020, 06:52:10 am
I'd want to see the raw data for that article. They're basing the entire thing on 35 being the "expected" deaths under normal circumstances, but they don't say how many years that 35 is based on, the SE, and so on. When some one gives me assurances like:

Quote
The difference is enormous and cannot be a simple statistical deviation. Demographic statistics have their «constancies» and annual averages change only when completely «new» phenomena arrive.
I wanna see those numbers.

Also...does anyone recall, is the oft-quoted 1% mortality rate based on someone receiving intensive hospitalization, no care, or some overall average of those?

Shelter in place order finally going into effect here on Monday. I'm glad they're doing it, but I'm also glad there's still an allowance for hiking, fishing, hunting. I love holing up with a video game as much a anyone else in this forum, but if I don't get to go out and **** around in the woods occasionally I get pretty grumpy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on March 28, 2020, 08:06:22 am
No word about toilet paper shortages here in Italy that I know of, is that a US thing?
We did get hand sanitizer shortages though.
In which area do you live? Here in Bergamo, when I last went to the supermarket 2 weeks ago, it was next to impossible to find, along with denaturated alcohol and clothes detergents.

And now we also ran out of brewer's yeast, as everybody is trying to make pizza at home :lol:

Just to have some fun, here is a video of Italian mayors and governors angry with people disobeying orders:


As for the number of cases in Italy... Unfortunately, not all positive people are being counted in the statistics. At least 2 former schoolmates of mine caught the virus (fortunately with mild symptoms only, and they have already recovered), but they didn't qualify for swabs, so they were not counted in the official statistics. They were simply said "Do not go out for 2 weeks since the last symptom disappeared".
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on March 28, 2020, 08:13:23 am
Just to have some fun, here is a video of Italian mayors and governors angry with people disobeying orders:

My sister (who has citizenship in both the US and Italy and our mother was Italian) emailed me this very vid yesterday. Yeah, this sh!t is serious, but I still had to laugh my ass off at these Italian mayors being very Italian.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 28, 2020, 09:10:36 am
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/03/us-now-top-site-of-corona-infections-as-a-control-plan-emerges/

A really good article explaining how scientists attempting to model the virus spread using various assumptions has been co-opted to mean partisan "fake models" are being talked about now. Yes it's dumb. Yes it shows an amazing lack of understanding of how science works, but this is apparently the world we live in now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 28, 2020, 09:41:53 am
Or for an even simpler summary of why our response has been a bit of a cluster****:
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/scientific_briefing_2x.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 28, 2020, 10:42:10 am
No word about toilet paper shortages here in Italy that I know of, is that a US thing?
We did get hand sanitizer shortages though.
In which area do you live? Here in Bergamo, when I last went to the supermarket 2 weeks ago, it was next to impossible to find, along with denaturated alcohol and clothes detergents.

And now we also ran out of brewer's yeast, as everybody is trying to make pizza at home :lol:
Lipari island, so probably we have it just a tad better than in Lombardy I guess.
Funny about the pizza, especially considering it's Bergamo I thought we southerners were the pizza addicts.
There is also the fact that I'm not the one buying groceries in the family so I probably didn't notice but my corner of Italian social media doesn't seem as obsessed by toilet paper as the US media, it's mostly Amuchina memes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2020, 11:43:10 am
Also...does anyone recall, is the oft-quoted 1% mortality rate based on someone receiving intensive hospitalization, no care, or some overall average of those?

Pretty sure it's just deaths divided by known infections.

If anything it's probably too high, since true infections is probably >> known infections. But as was floated upthread, there may be COVID deaths which have not been counted.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 28, 2020, 01:00:16 pm
By the way in Palermo some people tried to raid supermarkets so they put police guarding the entrances, it's speculated the local mafia is behind it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 28, 2020, 02:14:54 pm
The 1% is a rather optimist estimate. The WHO states:

Quote from: World Health Organization
Mortality for COVID-19 appears higher than for influenza, especially seasonal influenza. While the true mortality of COVID-19 will take some time to fully understand, the data we have so far indicate that the crude mortality ratio (the number of reported deaths divided by the reported cases) is between 3-4%, the infection mortality rate (the number of reported deaths divided by the number of infections) will be lower. For seasonal influenza, mortality is usually well below 0.1%. However, mortality is to a large extent determined by access to and quality of health care.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 28, 2020, 03:45:40 pm
Japan is remarkable - they have a huge upside-down demographic pyramid, and yet their case and mortality rates are incredibly low.

Japan is not testing at *nearly* the same rate as South Korea. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-testing/japan-uses-just-a-fraction-of-its-coronavirus-testing-capacity-idUSKBN2150ZR) Or, err, at all.

Hey, at least we know the CCP is.  You know.  And, uh.. kicking journalists out.  But still accurately testing & reporting.  :rolleyes:  I'd be more inclined to believe them if it was pretty tamped down but basically stopped cold?  Yeahhhh.. sure.  Imma press X on that.


EDIT:

When people talk about "prioritizing the economy":

(https://media.giphy.com/media/gIqusaeYxgSiY/giphy.gif)


There is a point where the economy collapsing will cause more deaths with COVID assisting than just COVID alone.  I don't think we're there yet, but it is something to keep an eye on and eventually we can figure out how to lock down hot spots and social distance less affected regions.  Like, did China lock the entire country down or just Wuhan and other affected areas?  Let's be logical.  Which means, right now, testing everything and finding a way to test for antibodies which will help get a better picture.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: castor on March 28, 2020, 04:38:48 pm
A really good article explaining how scientists attempting to model the virus spread using various assumptions has been co-opted to mean partisan "fake models" are being talked about now. Yes it's dumb. Yes it shows an amazing lack of understanding of how science works, but this is apparently the world we live in now.
Even worse than that, in many instances it obviously is a deliberate decision to not care. Like a disease of its own.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 28, 2020, 04:49:48 pm
jr2, you may still want to answer Karajorma's question or err, explain how you know better then the entire medical world what the best dose of malaria medicine to take for covid 19 is :P

Quote
Hey, at least we know the CCP is.  You know.  And, uh.. kicking journalists out.  But still accurately testing & reporting.  :rolleyes:  I'd be more inclined to believe them if it was pretty tamped down but basically stopped cold?  Yeahhhh.. sure.  Imma press X on that.

Quote
Like, did China lock the entire country down or just Wuhan and other affected areas?  Let's be logical.

So err, do you believe China went too far or not far enough?

Do you actually read your own posts?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on March 28, 2020, 06:06:59 pm
jr2, you may still want to answer Karajorma's question or err, explain how you know better then the entire medical world what the best dose of malaria medicine to take for covid 19 is :P

Ballpark.  But since you're oh so interested:

Quote from: CDC
There are no currently available data from Randomized Clinical Trials (RCTs) to inform clinical guidance on the use, dosing, or duration of hydroxychloroquine for prophylaxis or treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection.  Although optimal dosing and duration of hydroxychloroquine for treatment of COVID-19 are unknown, some U.S. clinicians have reported anecdotally different hydroxychloroquine dosing such as: 400mg BID on day one, then daily for 5 days; 400 mg BID on day one, then 200mg BID for 4 days; 600 mg BID on day one, then 400mg daily on days 2-5.

Link (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/therapeutic-options.html) for CDC source.

Quote
Hey, at least we know the CCP is.  You know.  And, uh.. kicking journalists out.  But still accurately testing & reporting.  :rolleyes:  I'd be more inclined to believe them if it was pretty tamped down but basically stopped cold?  Yeahhhh.. sure.  Imma press X on that.

Quote
Like, did China lock the entire country down or just Wuhan and other affected areas?  Let's be logical.

So err, do you believe China went too far or not far enough?

Do you actually read your own posts?

China didn't go far enough, and in fact destroyed evidence and denied there was a problem for at least 3 weeks (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china+destroyed+covid+evidence+samples&search=&form=QBLH&sp=-1&pq=fbi+accidentally+erased+hard+&sc=0-29&qs=n&sk=&cvid=2ACBABB9208C46659AB3BA3624F0A96B).  THEN, they pushed draconian measures (welding doors shut locking people into their apartments (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china+welding+doors+shut+coronavirus&qs=LS&pq=china+weld&sc=8-10&cvid=DDB928479DAD4DB38F579AC42F463D89&FORM=QBRE&sp=1) etc) to make up for it.  Typical repressive regime ****.  Now, they are pretending that they have solved the problem (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china+lying+about+coronavirus+numbers&qs=AS&pq=china+lying+&sk=EP1&sc=8-12&cvid=8BAEFE3927A64205BF91BEEEDFC9009B&FORM=QBRE&sp=2) while not testing for CV19 any more (https://www.bing.com/search?q=has+china+stopped+testing+for+coronavirus&qs=RI&pq=china+stopped+testing&sc=1-21&cvid=E2A92410B2A845FCA1BB3BE4596A27CF&FORM=QBRE&sp=1&ghc=1), or so the story goes (kind of hard to tell since they kicked our journalists out of the country (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china%20kicked%20out%20journalists&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=china%20kicked%20out%20journalists&sc=0-28&sk=&cvid=89D8880E419D40AE99BB35AD809E5E6B))

Now is that simple enough for you to track?  I'm assuming you know how to follow links on a search engine, yes?  I mean FFS.  They might be acting a bit nicer to certain people but do you pay attention to what these cretins do (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china%20muslim%20camps&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=china%20muslim%20camp&sc=8-17&sk=&cvid=56BF3E356B4F4A68B169253AF68288F1) on a regular basis?  Here, have another (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china%20forced%20organ%20donors&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=china%20forced%20organ%20donor&sc=1-24&sk=&cvid=E00AC0967CDB4C9AB61CD6BEDF336498).

I've got nothing against Chinese, but I have a huge bone to pick with Communists.  And currently, 1.4 billion Chinese are stuck under the iron boot of the CCP.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.  Where did 21 million cell phone users (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china%2021%20million%20less%20cell%20phones%20in%20use&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=china%2021%20million%20less%20cell%20phones%20in%20use&sc=1-40&sk=&cvid=A44B1755A2B8443986C6E8B9654E897A) disappear to in the PRC?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on March 28, 2020, 08:12:53 pm
Not to mention the people who have "disappeared" or been imprisoned after criticizing China's response - among them, two journalists (Fang Bin and Chen Qiushi), two academics (Xu Zhangrun and Xu Zhiyong), and a real estate tycoon (Ren Zhiqiang).

Edit: By "China", I of course mean the CPC.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on March 28, 2020, 09:31:27 pm
People in this thread talking about how poorly the US response has been...

jr2: WHATABOUTCHINA

China's failures do not make the US response better.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on March 28, 2020, 09:43:57 pm
Sure. And the US' failures do not excuse China's cover-up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 28, 2020, 10:08:36 pm
Notice that no one particularly wanted to talk about the subject when it was going on though? Why is it that it's only in March that we're talking about China's failures in December & January? Could it possibly be that people want to distract us away from talking about America's failure in March being talked about in March?

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.  Where did 21 million cell phone users (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china%2021%20million%20less%20cell%20phones%20in%20use&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=china%2021%20million%20less%20cell%20phones%20in%20use&sc=1-40&sk=&cvid=A44B1755A2B8443986C6E8B9654E897A) disappear to in the PRC?

How much testing have you done of that 21 million disappeared people claim? You've spent a really long time debunking the supposed "fake news" that is being spread abut the coronavirus in the USA. Why are you not spending a modicum of that time on checking the stuff you're insisting is true? Why aren't you doing bing searches on that stuff? If you had, you would have quickly noticed

1) This drop is not unprecedented (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china+cell+phone+subscriptions+by+month&qs=n&sp=-1&pq=&sc=0-0&sk=&cvid=F366F0A5289D4E6198FF4DA19B12AA4B&first=7&FORM=PERE). There was a drop in cell phone usage of around 10 million between  March and June. What disaster are you claiming killed 10 million people back then?
2) You would have noticed that China has 1.6 billion cell phones (https://www.bing.com/search?form=MOZSBR&pc=MOZI&q=china+cell+phone+subscriptions) but only 1.4 billion people (https://www.bing.com/search?q=population+of+china&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=population+of+china&sc=1-19&sk=&cvid=071620FE434043628A841EC44BBB03F4) which absolutely should have got you wondering about those alternative explanations which were so quickly dismissed by Epoch Times. They claimed that Chinese migrant workers and students couldn't allow their phone subscriptions to lapse because they need those subscriptions in order to prove their ID. Which is true. But they only need one phone to do that. But it should be immediately obvious that there are 200 million more phones than people. That number could have dropped by 200million and those objections still wouldn't mean a damn thing because those people would still have a mobile phone to do all that with.
3) So given how easy it is to let a subscription lapse in China (you literally don't do anything and they cut you off when your balance is negative), it's pretty easy to see that the 21m fall can easily be explained by migrant workers and students letting their Shanghai number die because they have no need for it when they are locked down in their hometown in Sichuan.

So there are alternative explanations for that claim, ones that aren't based on a single point of data which as I've proved is wrong anyway, why are you spreading it without checking it as rigorously as you have checked the ones that make Trump look better? Why haven't you spent the 30 seconds it would have taken to check the facts for yourself?

See? This is exactly the sort of bull**** I called you out on multiple times earlier. This is the same as when you posted an article about the lack of masks and tried to claim it explained why Obama was responsible for the lack of testing. This is the same as when you argued that a manufacturing defect means that we should ignore that the testing kits still weren't available in early March. In case you are wondering why people keep asking you to answer Karajorma's question, this is the question I asked you.

Please explain why you are engaging in exactly the sort of flim-flam and half truths you are calling other people out for.

even if you are just standing up for the truth, even if you just think that the truth is super important and everyone needs to know the truth so you have to shout it out onto a thread that never asked you to do so, why are you being so selective about which truths you stand up for?

Why are you misrepresenting the truth in order to argue that the truth is important and shouldn't be misrepresented?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on March 28, 2020, 10:38:44 pm
Notice that no one particularly wanted to talk about the subject when it was going on though? Why is it that it's only in March that we're talking about China's failures in December & January? Could it possibly be that people want to distract us away from talking about America's failure in March being talked about in March?

China's cover-up is ongoing. Four of the disappearances/imprisonments that I mentioned took place in February. Ren Zhiqiang disappeared earlier this month.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2020, 11:09:14 pm
We passed the 9/11 death toll in the past two days! CONTINUE THE DOUBLING
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 28, 2020, 11:48:03 pm
Notice that no one particularly wanted to talk about the subject when it was going on though? Why is it that it's only in March that we're talking about China's failures in December & January? Could it possibly be that people want to distract us away from talking about America's failure in March being talked about in March?

China's cover-up is ongoing. Four of the disappearances/imprisonments that I mentioned took place in February. Ren Zhiqiang disappeared earlier this month.

And again, it's only now that people want to talk about it. Those four disappearances happened in February! Why didn't you post about them in February if you wanted to talk about them? Why didn't you post about Ren Zhiqiang earlier this month then? Why is it only when people want to complain about jr2's whataboutism that all of a sudden they became important? Why is it that if you know enough about China to remember the names of missing dissidents (or cared enough to look them up), the fact that jr2's 21 million missing people claim was obviously utter bull**** didn't register as wrong immediately? Why is it that instead, it was something you felt the need to enter the thread and add to instead of challenging it?

No one is excusing China's behaviour. What I'm complaining about is that jr2 is being very selective in his criticisms. We all know and agree that China has made mistakes. No one is discussing China because we all agree. There's no discussion to be had! But jr2's entire contribution to this thread has been to misrepresent the truth by being very selective in what he complains about or to engage in whataboutism when he's called out on something. Many of the complaints he's making about China are also very valid about America. "The government spent a lot of time denying that Covid19 was a problem". Is that a complaint about China or America? Yet jr2's working very hard to excuse America's mistakes and is pointing out the mistakes China made even though no one disagrees about those? Why?

I honestly have to wonder why. And I have to start wondering why you decided to spend time arguing about the dates those dissidents disappeared rather than understanding the general point I was making.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on March 29, 2020, 12:44:46 am
We all know and agree that China has made mistakes. No one is discussing China because we all agree. There's no discussion to be had!

I wasn't aware of this. I apologize for hijacking the thread.

We passed the 9/11 death toll in the past two days! CONTINUE THE DOUBLING

Are we there already? I thought the coronavirus death toll was in the low two thousands.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 29, 2020, 02:26:56 am
Can we, as a thread, make an informed decision and ignore jr2's meaningless waffle
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 29, 2020, 02:59:22 am
Can we, as a thread, make an informed decision and ignore jr2's meaningless waffle

If he was just one person deliberately deluding himself, I'd say yes. But unfortunately this is the same kool-aid that most Trump supporters are cheerfully drinking down. It's amazing that the same people who cheerfully accepted that the virus was under control a month ago and that claims it could become a danger were a hoax are still listening to the same sources but that's apparently the world we live in now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 29, 2020, 05:17:56 am
China didn't go far enough,

Then you know that what the US is doing right now isn't going far enough either.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 29, 2020, 05:29:04 am
You cannot hide a pandemic. You can for some time cook the numbers of the infected or deliberately do not test people. But at some point all hospitals will be overrun by the sick and fill with dead bodies. Good luck hiding that. It is a conspiracy theory on the level of moon landing deniers to claim that Chinese numbers arent at least broadly correct. And I say it as someone who hates communists.

Say what you will about China but they did ultimately handle this crisis really well. Compare to incompetent crackpots in Western authorities such as "masks dont work, travel restrictions are ineffective" CDC and WHO.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 29, 2020, 05:34:05 am
Say what you will about China but they did ultimately handle this crisis really well. Compare to incompetent crackpots in Western authorities such as "masks dont work, travel restrictions are ineffective" CDC and WHO.

The US implemented travel restrictions pretty early.

You may have noted that they did not work.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on March 29, 2020, 05:54:56 am
The US implemented travel restrictions pretty early.

You may have noted that they did not work.

Not early enough, and they did flatten the curve. Would be even worse without them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2020, 08:05:47 am
We all know and agree that China has made mistakes. No one is discussing China because we all agree. There's no discussion to be had!

I wasn't aware of this. I apologize for hijacking the thread.

We passed the 9/11 death toll in the past two days! CONTINUE THE DOUBLING

Are we there already? I thought the coronavirus death toll was in the low two thousands.

Whoops you’re right, I should’ve waited 24 hours before declaring 9/11 2. Unless the doubling stopped!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 29, 2020, 08:07:00 am
Whoops you’re right, I should’ve waited 24 hours before declaring 9/11 2. Unless the doubling stopped!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2020, 10:36:55 am
Assuming half of cases are asymptomatic or undetected, we're closing in on 0.1% of all Americans infected. That may not sound like much but it's one in every thousand, and the asymptomatic won't know they're spreading it to two or three other people. The flu usually gets to 1 in 6 Americans every year and COVID has a much higher R0.

Stay home. You may have it already. You could save hundreds or thousands of lives by cutting off your infection tree at the base.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2020, 10:38:39 am
Lol wait I forgot we have to fix the economy. Everyone go work, go spend money, it can't infect more than 100% of us but the stock market has no ceiling!!!!!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 29, 2020, 11:50:08 am
Number must go..... down?

this is unnatural, anticapitalist and probably a liberal lie
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on March 29, 2020, 12:16:06 pm
In more serious news, this has me slightly worried (https://www.dw.com/en/german-state-finance-minister-thomas-sch%C3%A4fer-found-dead/a-52948976).

TL;DR: Thomas Schäfer, finance minister for the german state of Hesse, has committed suicide. Apparently, according to the investigators, he left a note in which he cited the stress of dealing with the fallout of covid as a reason.
This is both understandable and worrying: Frankfurt am Main, Hesse's capital, is Germany's financial center. In his role as finance minister, it was his job to organize a large portion of Hesse's response to corona and to reassure people that everything was getting dealt with. Schäfer was one of the rising stars of the hessian CDU, it was pretty much assumed (and he was planning to) take over the hessian CDU and, with it, the position of hessian Prime Minister. In his public appearances, he was always exactly the sort of politician germans tend to like: Solid, competent, self-assured without being cocky. That he was overwhelmed by this crisis and that he apparently did not see a way through it is worrying on many levels.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on March 29, 2020, 06:28:58 pm
This is just extremely sad. While a lot of people just don't care at all, such persons as this minister work and worry themselves into the ground like this. And it's a recurring theme all around the world...


Aaaaaaand while medical facilities in Poland are severely reglamenting the use of safety equipement like, among other things, face masks, in order to save them up for critical situations, our glorious government decided that not only the presidential elections will go according to schedule, but also every member of the election local oversight is going to have an adequate amount of masks and gloves provided by them, just as every voter. And they started stocking up. The estimate is that the oversight personnel will require about 4,2 million face mask + single use glove pair sets for this one single day. Plus an additional set per every voter. About 13-15 million sets total if the voter attendance is below one third.

Current prime minister declared that the elections are perfectly feasible and that the quarantine was tightened exactly to make sure they happen.

Because of this, some high ranking members of municipal administration had declared civil disobedience against the goverment, and I presume more cases are to follow. At least one presidential candidate decided to withdraw their application as a form of strike against this. The National Electoral Commission pushes the government as hard as they can to move the damn election day.

i want out
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on March 29, 2020, 11:52:18 pm
Trump says he'll have done a good job if only 100,000 people die (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/trump-says-keeping-us-covid-19-deaths-to-100000-would-be-a-very-good-job)

Setting that bar so low you have to dig for it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 30, 2020, 01:03:26 am
They're digging either way  :blah:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on March 30, 2020, 01:29:48 am
So the construction jobsite I've been working at is re-opening Monday after being closed for a week. It's a wide open solar field, but there are about a hundred dudes who are going to be staying in motels in town, or carpooling daily, and still sharing the same handful of portable toilets.

But, they are checking everybody's temperature at the gate to make sure they don't have the corona.

I have decided I don't need to be a part of that, and I let them know I won't be in this week.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on March 30, 2020, 03:17:14 am
Trump says he'll have done a good job if only 100,000 people die (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/trump-says-keeping-us-covid-19-deaths-to-100000-would-be-a-very-good-job)

Jesus frakkin' christ on a sh!ttim wood crutch, what a manchild. Could President* Trump possibly be any more of a brat about this?

So the construction jobsite I've been working at is re-opening Monday after being closed for a week. It's a wide open solar field, but there are about a hundred dudes who are going to be staying in motels in town, or carpooling daily, and still sharing the same handful of portable toilets.

But, they are checking everybody's temperature at the gate to make sure they don't have the corona.

I have decided I don't need to be a part of that, and I let them know I won't be in this week.

Yeah, on a similar note, I came down with a sore throat 2 days ago (on my day off) and called in sick from my job at the supermarket yesterday and today. I'm pretty sure it ain't the coronavirus as a sore throat isn't a (major) symptom since Covid-19 is a respiratory ailment, but I'm not taking any chances of this sore throat migrating into a chest cold. (That's how I got pneumonia a few years back: by being the proverbial good soldier and showing up to work before I was fully recovered.) If work doesn't like it, tough. I need the paycheck, but I need functioning lungs more. :mad: :mad: :mad:

The good news is my sore throat is almost gone as of this writing, but I'm not going in to work until I'm sure I'm fully recovered. I'm giving it at least another day before I go back to work.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 30, 2020, 03:46:13 am
Having honestly no clue about your constitution, I'm asking genuinely if there any clause where he can get binned for just being bloody bad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on March 30, 2020, 05:07:08 am
Having honestly no clue about your constitution, I'm asking genuinely if there any clause where he can get binned for just being bloody bad.

Nnnnnnope, at least not in the way you're thinking.  The 25th Amendment has a section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_4:_Declaration_by_vice_president_and_principal_officers) addresses a method whereby the vice-president and majority of the Cabinet can declare their belief that the president is incapable of executing the duties of office.  (The section before it gives a method for the president to do the same, i.e. before undergoing anesthesia for surgery.)  If this were to occur, a series of steps is laid out which potentially culminates in both the House and Senate needing a two-thirds majority vote in order to confirm it.  Were they to do so, then the vice-president would effectively serve as acting president until the current term is up and elections are held.  Needless to say, as much as "invoke the 25th" has become a popular hashtag, there's a snowball's chance in hell of it actually happening: the vice-president and Cabinet are sycophantic boot-lickers to a man, and even if they did have a shred of moral fiber, Republicans control the Senate and have more than a 1/3 minority in the House.  Basically, no matter how ****ty a president is doing, we're essentially stuck with them through the current four-year cycle.

Now, if you're talking about a president doing something flat-out illegal, obviously there's the separate process of impeachment, but, well, we all saw how that played out.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on March 30, 2020, 05:30:00 am
Hurray for quack medicine! (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/27/vital-drug-people-lupus-coronavirus-covid-19-link-hydroxychloroquine)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 30, 2020, 06:33:56 am
Having honestly no clue about your constitution, I'm asking genuinely if there any clause where he can get binned for just being bloody bad.

Nnnnnnope, at least not in the way you're thinking.  The 25th Amendment has a section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_4:_Declaration_by_vice_president_and_principal_officers) addresses a method whereby the vice-president and majority of the Cabinet can declare their belief that the president is incapable of executing the duties of office.  (The section before it gives a method for the president to do the same, i.e. before undergoing anesthesia for surgery.)  If this were to occur, a series of steps is laid out which potentially culminates in both the House and Senate needing a two-thirds majority vote in order to confirm it.  Were they to do so, then the vice-president would effectively serve as acting president until the current term is up and elections are held.  Needless to say, as much as "invoke the 25th" has become a popular hashtag, there's a snowball's chance in hell of it actually happening: the vice-president and Cabinet are sycophantic boot-lickers to a man, and even if they did have a shred of moral fiber, Republicans control the Senate and have more than a 1/3 minority in the House.  Basically, no matter how ****ty a president is doing, we're essentially stuck with them through the current four-year cycle.

Now, if you're talking about a president doing something flat-out illegal, obviously there's the separate process of impeachment, but, well, we all saw how that played out.

Come on guys, revolution made your country.  Just a wee uprising long enough to stave his head in then back to normal business please? :)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: perihelion on March 30, 2020, 12:58:35 pm
Because, Dekker, much like your own Lunatic-in-Chief, there is a HUGE swath of the population that actually believe him.

No matter how many times you tell yourself, "C'mon, no one can be THAT stupid," the fact is that despite everything he's done that flies in the face of any common sense, that is amoral, unethical, unnecessarily cruel, that has hurt the very people who claim he's their savior, despite Coronavirus, despite heading into an economic crash the likes of which we've not seen in my lifetime, despite all of the prevention he completely FAILED TO DO, there's still better than an outside chance he'll win again in November.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on March 30, 2020, 01:10:50 pm
Plus, they have most of the guns (in civilian hands, anyway).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2020, 12:47:12 pm
Partner making us masks at home. She's volunteered to sew medical gowns, but this will require a long trip to a pickup point for the materials, and we're not going to risk the subway and all its fomites.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on March 31, 2020, 12:57:47 pm
Yeah, subway sounds like second only to a hospital for infectiousness.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on March 31, 2020, 03:59:50 pm
Yeah, subway sounds like second only to a hospital for infectiousness.

Do grocery stores get third place? :nervous:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on March 31, 2020, 04:18:56 pm
No, I think schools, churches, games, cinemas and stuff like that share the third place. Or actually rank higher than hospitals.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2020, 07:08:04 pm
Don't worry, everyone! The White House estimates that at minimum we'll only lose 1 out of every 3000 Americans. That's not a very big number! Most of us only know about 600 people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on March 31, 2020, 07:24:34 pm
Only in a timeline as f*cked up as this one could the President* of the United States declare a death toll from a virus two to four times deadlier than the entire Vietnam War a "win."

I f*cking hate the Trump cult and everyone still in it. GOP delenda est.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on March 31, 2020, 07:26:44 pm
Only in a timeline as f*cked up as this one could the President* of the United States declare a death toll from a virus two to four times deadlier than the entire Vietnam War a "win."

I f*cking hate the Trump cult and everyone still in it. GOP delenda est.

"delendus" is more appropriate I think.

EDIT

Or perhaps "delendum"? It's kind of difficult to tell.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: perihelion on March 31, 2020, 09:09:19 pm
I really hope you are right, but I don't think you are.  There are a lot of Republicans thoroughly disgusted with Trump, but only because he's a dunderheaded lummox, not because they have in any way internalized that the policies he and his party espouses are leading the human race right off the edge of a cliff.  Unless this crisis forces them to come to grips with THAT...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 01, 2020, 01:06:45 am
An interesting look at media in times of crisis

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on April 01, 2020, 01:32:38 am
Right before social distancing became all but mandatory, I had my brother and <5 friends over for pizza and watching Contagion. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but low-key made me anxious. Aside from the extremely high mortality rate of that bug, it's eerie how parallel that movie is to real life right now, even down to being a virus in the SARS family.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 01, 2020, 05:29:48 am
small brain: Coronavirus is serious

large brain: Coronavirus requires immediate response

star brain: Coronavirus is a chinese plot

galaxy brain: Can't have any 'rona outbreaks if noone is allowed to talk about it (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/03/31/824611607/turkmenistan-has-banned-use-of-the-word-coronavirus)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 01, 2020, 08:31:09 am
Out of the 50 states, Florida has the 5th highest median age, and currently has the 5th highest number of confirmed cases... and we're one of the 18 states that still haven't shut down.

Maybe we won't rank 5th in median age when this is over.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 01, 2020, 09:12:42 am
Think of all that new real estate on the market 👍👍

#armyhumour #apologiesinadvance
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 01, 2020, 11:20:59 am
What real estate? There's no ****ing housing market in the US.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 01, 2020, 11:43:30 am
Best get schmoozing those old dears to get written into some wills. 👵👵👍👍😍
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 01, 2020, 01:48:14 pm
Think of all that new real estate on the market 👍👍

although the real estate market in the UK is suspended just like everything else
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 01, 2020, 03:21:43 pm
It just boggles my mind that a disease outbreak has become a partisan conspiracy theory thing. It's not like the virus cares what your political affiliation is. But in a world where people are stupid enough to think that prayer can prevent you from getting infected by a virus, anything's possible.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on April 01, 2020, 11:44:16 pm
I seem to recall a little verse about not throwing yourself off a building to tempt God, but that kind of common sense is lost on the people we're talking about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 02, 2020, 01:11:39 pm
I think we can all take reassurance, in these hard times, that our per capita infection rate is not the highest in the world, and that it's the Swiss who've really botched their coronavirus response. Nobody do the math on just New York state versus Switzerland or it'll make us look bad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on April 02, 2020, 01:26:12 pm
China didn't go far enough,

Then you know that what the US is doing right now isn't going far enough either.

If Trump had proposed a nationwide lockdown in late January / early February (while impeachment articles were being delivered and Pelosi, deBlasio, and others were encouraging gathering in mass numbers in NYC and other places, and Italy was doing 'hug a Chinese person' day), you known darn well that every.single.user posting here condemning the US response RIGHT NOW would have been SCREAMING about the DESPOTIC POWER GRAB by the TYRANT Trump that was OBVIOUSLY in response to his HORRIFIC CRIMES that he was being impeached for.  I'm done here.  You guys enjoy your little echo chamber.  :yes:

EDIT: I'll add that the 'experts', thanks to faulty data coming from China, pretty much ignored the threat.  NO ONE saw this coming.  Thanks CCP.

(https://i.imgur.com/BALdmtw.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on April 02, 2020, 01:57:18 pm
If Trump had proposed a nationwide lockdown in late January / early February (while impeachment articles were being delivered and Pelosi, deBlasio, and others were encouraging gathering in mass numbers in NYC and other places, and Italy was doing 'hug a Chinese person' day), you known darn well that every.single.user posting here condemning the US response RIGHT NOW would have been SCREAMING about the DESPOTIC POWER GRAB by the TYRANT Trump that was OBVIOUSLY in response to his HORRIFIC CRIMES that he was being impeached for.

Perhaps at first. But every single person here, would be absolutely thrilled to be proven wrong about that. Because people are dying, right now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 02, 2020, 01:59:32 pm
Nah not even at first.

They'd just be critiquing the lack of testing.

Note how he's trying to suddenly shift focus to January despite the complaints being there during March? Note how the focus has suddenly shifted from saying it was not a big deal to saying that outside forces were preventing the government from doing more? This is what embracing cowardice looks like. Even when friends are dying the focus is still on fleeing from responsibility.

And hell, look at how jr2 is running away, calling this an "echo chamber", with voices from all around the world debating him on each and every point he raises! Mabye the only echo chamber here is you jr2, considering how consistently you've refused to actually engage with people talking to you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: IronBeer on April 02, 2020, 02:41:18 pm
What am I doing why am I wading in help

If Trump had proposed a nationwide lockdown in late January / early February...
I for one wouldn't have been mad actually (probably). There were some trips I was planning to take around mid-March that I cancelled around early February from an abundance of caution.

Coronavirus is basically an epidemiologist's nightmare- highly infectious, truly severe symptoms in bad cases, and a lengthy asyptomatic transmission period. Hard to say how I'd have reacted in this alternate timeline, but I'd probably still be watching with horror as the bodies stack up elsewhere in the world. Exponential growth is really really powerful yo.

(while impeachment articles were being delivered...)
Not strictly a direct response, but there's an interesting timeline relating actions and statements regarding impeachment and the outbreak. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Keep_Track/comments/fsxjqy/mitch_mcconnell_states_that_impeachment_delayed/)

Yeah yeah "ew reddit" but this guy has receipts.

Also was impeachment only resolved a couple months ago? Time is broken..... that feels like years ago now.

(snipped image)
I see an opportunity for media literacy here. Shall we actually take a look at the headlines in this collage?

Most of them are some riff on "the flu is more dangerous than coronoavirus". While I can't cross-reference every article that's on display here due to the collage being, well, a picture, I'd be curious to see just how many of these articles are drawing from the same source.

Also scientists knew even then that COVID had/has about 10-20x the fatality rate of the flu. Comparing absolute numbers is dumb, and journalists should know better.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 02, 2020, 02:50:19 pm
"No one saw this coming (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96228.msg1892335#msg1892335)" says man who does not read the threads he posts in, where he previously argued that everyone was overreacting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 02, 2020, 03:16:38 pm
I saw this coming (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/17/trump-dissed-coronavirus-pandemic-worry-now-claims-he-warned-about-it.html), claims man who said it was going to be fine in january.

"We're seeing this coming (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200131-sitrep-11-ncov.pdf?sfvrsn=de7c0f7_4)" says world health organization in January.

No one saw this coming, says man who shows images of... err...

regional news sources and gaming news websites downplaying the virus and other websites mentioning that it doesn't kill everyone and spreads quickly, or at the time of writing hasn't spread very far.

Gee it's almost as if this virus wouldn't have been as much of a big deal because everyone counted on proper measures being taken!

You know mabye it's better if JR2 leaves the thread considering how much of an embarrassment this is. It's like he hasn't even read what any of those snippets say!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Bryan See on April 02, 2020, 03:37:49 pm
I was crying. And nobody noticed it. People started to ignore me. Because of flooding the zone with propaganda and ****, which is distilled by Steve Bannon, and is put to use by Trump, Putin and Boris Johnson.

Crying because of the outbreak and being a victim by the Red-Brown coalition of alt-rightists and their Online Left dupes. I am not part of both of them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 02, 2020, 04:36:47 pm
I suspect that a lot of those headlines are probably photoshopped. But one thing I am sure of: That Washington Post "Get a grippe [sic]" headline is fake...simply because anyone with at least a 2nd grade education knows that the word "grip" is NOT spelled with two Ps and an E. The Post would never make a rookie editing mistake like that. :rolleyes:

If jr2 couldn't tell that that headline was faked, then he's not smart enough to realize that he's been taken for a ride by the coronavirus deniers. Or he's just a dumb troll who doesn't believe one word of what he's saying. Either way, his credibility is shot.

It's the internet, so I can't tell if you're joking or not, but the "grippe" is an old-timey term for the flu. And that headline is actually a real one (but the WaPo editor should probably still be ****canned for allowing it).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 02, 2020, 04:42:53 pm
I can't believe that the Washington Post of all places actually posted a headline misspelling the word "grip", but then I discovered it was a play on words. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the definition of grippe is: an acute febrile contagious virus disease. Which is exactly what the coronavirus is.

EDIT: theperfectdrugsk, yeah I deleted my original post as soon as I stopped being outraged and checked the actual headline to see if it really did exist. As soon as I saw that it was a real thing and that "grippe" really is a real word, I erased my post. But damn, you guys are fast. But yeah I was wrong and I admit it. But I wholeheartedly agree with you that whoever edited this article really should have chosen a less inflammatory title especially since the article itself talks far more about influenza and barely mentions the coronavirus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 02, 2020, 05:04:37 pm
The following message brought to you by myself, my two children, and my wife / their mom, who is a Registered Nurse:

STAY THE **** HOME.

Also keep 6 feet apart if you must go out and regularly wash your hands with soap often.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 02, 2020, 07:09:47 pm
I've been teleworking for the past three weeks now.

It's getting on my ****ing nerves.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 02, 2020, 08:24:11 pm
So the US removes the commander of the USS Theodore Roosevelt and at the same time attempts to complain about China causing the virus by covering things up.

I've been saying for years that it's actually quite astonishing how similar the US and China are in the end.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 02, 2020, 11:29:54 pm
Firing people doesn't really compare with "disappearing" them.

We can't even tell what happened to those whistleblowers in China. Were they imprisoned? Tortured? Harvested? Who knows.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on April 03, 2020, 02:43:26 am
Update from Italy.

First of all, please understand that every region in Italy has some decision-making autonomy on several issues, including healthcare.

This is what happened:
Every region except for Lombardy: "Let's perform swabs on every suspect case, especially if they are sure they were in contact with a confirmed positive case, so we can trace the outbreak"
Lombardy: "Naah, let's perform swabs only on those who are hospitalized"

Result:
Every region except for Lombardy: the outbreak is more or less contained. Death rate is on par with rest of the world.
Lombardy: positive cases are coming out of the goddamn walls. Death rate is 4x than the rest of the world. Several people who were told to just self-isolate are often found dead at home (especially the elderly) without ever being tested (so they do not even appear in the official statistics). This March several towns reported 5x the number of deaths compared to the average number of deaths in March in the last few years, and often less than half of these are officially recognised COVID-19 cases.

Not only that, but in the last days a decrease in the number of daily discovered positive cases in Lombardy was reported.
It turned out that less daily swabs were performed.
As they increased again the number of daily swabs, daily positive cases started increasing again. Who could have imagined so.

I fear the situation here in Lombardy will still worsen for few weeks, as the outbreak reached Milan, the most populous and densely inhabited city in the region and northern Italy.

In Milan a new field hospital has been recently completed. And to celebrate its opening, hundreds of journalists were invited in a cramped conference room for a press conference  :rolleyes:

The lockdown should have ended this weekend, but it has been prolonged for another week, and still it will not be enough.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 03, 2020, 03:18:03 am
Watching the US' response has been infuriating. We seem to be doing exactly what Italy did: mixed messages from the government, piecemeal shutdowns, slow tightening of restrictions.

Also, DeSantis finally shut down Florida on April 1... with an exception for religious gatherings. Oh joy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 03, 2020, 07:23:19 am
Firing people doesn't really compare with "disappearing" them.

We can't even tell what happened to those whistleblowers in China. Were they imprisoned? Tortured? Harvested? Who knows.

For the person disappeared, yes it's absolutely worse. But in terms of allowing the government to continue to do what it as doing without needing to worry about dissent, it's surprisingly similar. America of course has a higher baseline of civil liberties and that's a good thing but look at this case and compare it with the case of Li Wenliang and tell me you don't see similarities.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 03, 2020, 07:24:30 am
I saw this coming (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/17/trump-dissed-coronavirus-pandemic-worry-now-claims-he-warned-about-it.html), claims man who said it was going to be fine in january.

"We're seeing this coming (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200131-sitrep-11-ncov.pdf?sfvrsn=de7c0f7_4)" says world health organization in January.

No one saw this coming, says man who shows images of... err...

regional news sources and gaming news websites downplaying the virus and other websites mentioning that it doesn't kill everyone and spreads quickly, or at the time of writing hasn't spread very far.

Gee it's almost as if this virus wouldn't have been as much of a big deal because everyone counted on proper measures being taken!

You know mabye it's better if JR2 leaves the thread considering how much of an embarrassment this is. It's like he hasn't even read what any of those snippets say!

jr2 is an idiot but you have to understand that that's the fault of the chinese communist party
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 03, 2020, 07:34:21 am
Less personal attacks plox.

/me completes his GD moderation quota for the duration of the lockdown.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 03, 2020, 07:40:05 am
i am sorry, i retract my personal attacks on the author and merely note that in substance jr2's posts are exclusively either a) mindbogglingly wrong or 2) totally inane regurgitations of some random news article

in fairness to him he has stuck entirely to category a) in this thread as he has been in Trump Defence Mode throughout

edit to add: in further fairness to him this is still, of course, all the fault of the chinese
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 03, 2020, 10:35:19 am
Oh look, Trump has tried to divert PPE manufacturing bound for allied countries into the US alone. Y'know, including in linked, integral supply chains like those between the US and Canada.  https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-3m-to-make-more-face-masks-ramp-up-imports-to-us-after-trump-order/

Thankfully 3M is pushing back.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 03, 2020, 10:56:25 am
i am sorry, i retract my personal attacks on the author and merely note that in substance jr2's posts are exclusively either a) mindbogglingly wrong or 2) totally inane regurgitations of some random news article

in fairness to him he has stuck entirely to category a) in this thread as he has been in Trump Defence Mode throughout

edit to add: in further fairness to him this is still, of course, all the fault of the chinese

👌👍
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 03, 2020, 11:57:08 am
Meanwhile, on the Chinese tarmac:

https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.rfi.fr/en/europe/20200402-china-coronavirus-face-mask-france-stolen-us

At the same time to be fair, I suppose that’s a form of karma, given that we appropriated 50% of a Swedish load transitioning in Lyon.

All this will have long lasting political implications post covid. I wish that virus could at least rid us of a number of lunatic ****ers responsible for these decisions.

Last thing we need is a full blown price war on those wares.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 03, 2020, 01:12:03 pm
It's okay the dutch had to reject half the masks becuase they weren't good enough.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 03, 2020, 07:22:48 pm
Just got both a flu and coronavirus test today at the doctor here in DC. I didn't even need to make an appointment (but I did call the doctor's office in the morning to give them a head's up). I guess someone in DC is getting their act (slightly) together because I thought it was going to be a lot more trouble to arrange a coronavirus test.

Both tests were done with a nose swab each, which took all of a minute. Influenza test came up negative (it only took a few minutes to finish the flu test, of course) so it turns out I probably just had a common cold when I got a sore throat and cough last week. It's gonna take another week to find out about the coronavirus test, but seeing as how I never got a fever or shortness of breath, either I didn't get it or I was lucky enough to have a really mild case of it. The really good news is, I feel fine now, almost fully recovered from that cold.

In any case, I told work that I was gonna continue to self-quarantine for another week while I waited for the coronavirus test. Essential profession or no, the supermarket managers were fine with me staying home for another week. No point in taking chances if I'm asymptomatic or not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 03, 2020, 09:54:01 pm
Oh look, Trump has tried to divert PPE manufacturing bound for allied countries into the US alone. Y'know, including in linked, integral supply chains like those between the US and Canada.  https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-3m-to-make-more-face-masks-ramp-up-imports-to-us-after-trump-order/

Thankfully 3M is pushing back.

This is outrageous (of the US). I'd like to see anyone try to defend it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 03, 2020, 10:49:39 pm
Oh look, Trump has tried to divert PPE manufacturing bound for allied countries into the US alone. Y'know, including in linked, integral supply chains like those between the US and Canada.  https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-3m-to-make-more-face-masks-ramp-up-imports-to-us-after-trump-order/

Thankfully 3M is pushing back.

This is outrageous (of the US). I'd like to see anyone try to defend it.

To be fair, it's outrageous of the Trump administration. Most of the US voted against the orange sh!tgibbon. But your point is taken. The Republican Party has been outdoing itself lately defending the indefensible (though they've been doing it for a long time now).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 03, 2020, 11:14:15 pm
Oh look, Trump has tried to divert PPE manufacturing bound for allied countries into the US alone. Y'know, including in linked, integral supply chains like those between the US and Canada.  https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-3m-to-make-more-face-masks-ramp-up-imports-to-us-after-trump-order/

Thankfully 3M is pushing back.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-52161995

Not always successfully. Meanwhile, China is busy trying to position themselves as the global leaders in the fight against the pandemic by giving out masks to everyone they can.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 03, 2020, 11:27:07 pm
To be fair, it's outrageous of the Trump administration. Most of the US voted against the orange sh!tgibbon.

Yeah, when I say "the US", I mean the Trump administration. Just like when I say "China", I mean the CCP.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 04, 2020, 06:43:18 am
well I am a dentist and now I have to wear this **** at work

**** you COVID!!

(https://i.ibb.co/LN8kyNf/90234374-10219958321701064-4344018670083637248-o.jpg)



Otherwise situation is still good here in Slovakia, only 471 confirmed infected in a country of 5.5 million. Almost all of them have either a history of coming from abroad or contact with known infected, no community spread confirmed yet. There is a ban on all non-essential businesses and gatherings. And a mandatory 2 week quarantine, either at home or in government centers, for everyone coming in from abroad or everyone who came in contact with suspected infected. There are talks of general ban on going outside your house during easter holidays because people often travel to visit family and friends at that time. Number of tests increased sixfold to 1800/day during last week while number of new infected cases decreased slightly, so I feel quite optimistic we may be actually getting this virus under control. This must be done sooner rather than later because while our economy can handle a month of almost complete shutdown, we certainly cannot afford to prolong this for a year at all...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 04, 2020, 08:48:30 am
Don’t complain. At least you have protective gear.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Darius on April 04, 2020, 08:51:34 am
That's better protective gear than we get in the actual COVID wards.

I presume a lot of dental procedures aerosolise the particles hence the spacesuit?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2020, 08:59:04 am
The thing that's really disturbing about jr2 is that he still doesn't give a **** about the disease. He's never managed to make the leap to talking about the pandemic as a serious issue. All he cares about is whether Trump did good or bad and what the liberals think about it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2020, 09:02:11 am
It's crazy to watch people, in real time, turn into that character in disaster movies who cares more about some petty political/interpersonal bull**** than the Actual Disaster. I never believed in the military guys in The Stand who cared more about covering up the source of the virus than about stopping it, but it turns out they're a documentary!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 04, 2020, 10:32:45 am
When they'll make movies about this in a few decades they'll have to tone everything down because people born after the facts would never believe it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 04, 2020, 12:48:46 pm
That's better protective gear than we get in the actual COVID wards.

I presume a lot of dental procedures aerosolise the particles hence the spacesuit?

Exactly. We try to postpone everything that we can but sometimes creating aerosols is inevitable. Also the patient is literally breathing onto you and cannot wear any mask himself. Dentists are among the most endangered medical professionals during this pandemic, except for those working on actual covid wards.

Also, I was lucky to see this coming before **** hit the fan and bought this gear before it was hopelessly sold out. Many of my colleagues are lucky to even have FFP2 respirators and are baking them in an oven for reuse..

EDIT: where are you from if I may ask? How does it look like on the wards?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Darius on April 04, 2020, 02:03:42 pm
I work at the main covid hospital in regional South Western Australia. Cases are manageable but it is a pretty small hospital with limited resources. The remoteness helps and we have relatively few cases compared to other states.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on April 04, 2020, 10:25:37 pm
Bill Lee dragged his feet and didn't give a stay at home order until March 30th, so the curve wasn't flattened in Tennessee.  In fact, the projection is that we'll need twice as many hospital beds and four times as many ICU beds as exist in the state at peak need.

(https://www.wate.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/42/2020/04/ihme-04-04-20-tn.jpg)

I'm going to continue hunkering down for a month, because I'm not sure if being intubated or being triaged out of the system sounds worse, so I'd like to avoid both.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 04, 2020, 11:02:22 pm
Taiwan's (https://www.wired.com/story/taiwan-is-beating-the-coronavirus-can-the-us-do-the-same/) example is inspiring: (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/04/asia/taiwan-coronavirus-response-who-intl-hnk/index.html) they were screening passengers and ramping up mask production in early January. A strong response is possible without welding doors.

To be fair, Taiwan had some lead time over China. Instead of controlling an outbreak, they were able to prevent one. It probably helps that their vice president is an epidemiologist.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 05, 2020, 04:11:25 am
Turns out you can do great things if you, err, don't downplay the whole thing for months on end.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 05, 2020, 06:00:09 am
Or in the case of Boris Johnson try to suggest that everyone should get the virus instead of, you know, not get the virus. If Trump's plan was to keep denying that the light at the end of the tunnel was a train speeding towards him, Boris' was an attempt to derail the train using only his testicles.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: est1895 on April 05, 2020, 11:05:55 am
I found this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9GYTc53r2o

Whether it is true or not, I don't know.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 05, 2020, 11:28:06 am
Or in the case of Boris Johnson try to suggest that everyone should get the virus instead of, you know, not get the virus. If Trump's plan was to keep denying that the light at the end of the tunnel was a train speeding towards him, Boris' was an attempt to derail the train using only his testicles.

Johnson's fumbling aside, the UK does not appear to have had the testing capacity to do a proper prevention campaign like South Korea or Taiwan.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 05, 2020, 12:20:11 pm
And whose fault would that be?

We had at least a month to get some of that testing capacity in place but instead squandered it on Boris' nonsense. It probably wouldn't have been enough to prevent an outbreak, but it might have stopped it at a low number of cases rather than putting us in the top 10 worldwide. They're managing to do several thousand tests a day now. Had they done those at the start of March instead of insisting on only testing those with symptoms, then the UK wouldn't be in the state it is now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 05, 2020, 12:21:46 pm
I found this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9GYTc53r2o

Whether it is true or not, I don't know.

So.. a couple of red flags right off.

1: Some research shows that this guy's two videos have caught on like wildfire in the conspiracy theory circles.
2: Why is he posting videos to Youtube with this information and not going to the medical authorities or proper media?
3: Why is this one doctor in NYC the only one supposedly with this information?

The base argument of his videos seems to be that instead of setting the ventilators to combat lung failure, they should be set to combat lack of oxygen.. which I guess forces less pressure into the lungs? This isn't a TV show and he's not House M.D. I would trust most practiced physicians to adjust ventilator settings for each patient as needed. Maybe this guy started his medical ward with the wrong expectations?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 05, 2020, 12:30:37 pm
The comment section of that video is packed with anti-5G nutcases.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 05, 2020, 03:37:18 pm
friend linked to some excellent anti-5G material earlier today

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU1i4QsWkAAoTGT?format=jpg&name=small)

1970s belfast: calm, still, peaceful, restful
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 05, 2020, 03:48:06 pm
And whose fault would that be?

a huge amount of the blame unquestionably lies on the last 10 years of austerity harrowing the NHS down to nothing in the pursuit of pure right-wing ideology, but when it comes to testing capacity it's not that clear to me how much was down to structural weaknesses in the british system compared to other countries and how much was down to bad acute crisis management. all the 'herd immunity' bull**** was criminally incompetent but i think it may have been informed by knowledge of how bad the country's capacity realy was, rather than responsible for it
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 05, 2020, 09:14:28 pm
Nope. While it might be true that the UK didn't have enough capacity, the UK government wasn't listening to health professionals enough for that to be the reason they chose that dumb path.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/01/absolutely-wrong-how-uk-coronavirus-test-strategy-unravelled
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 06, 2020, 01:45:10 am
In fairness, all of this is, off-course, the fault of the EU.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 06, 2020, 07:31:59 am
Don't forget the illuminati, 5G, media empires, aliens, daleks, aztecs and rolex.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 06, 2020, 08:13:37 am
Don't forget the illuminati, 5G, media empires, aliens, daleks, aztecs and rolex.

Also the Cylons, Hester Shaw, and Georgia-Pacific.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 0rph3u5 on April 06, 2020, 08:23:56 am
Here is a little anecdote to brighten your day with some absurdity:

I live in a tourism region, and we got some pretty depressing economic outlook due to the outbreak because we are at the start of the season and people making trips across Germany is discouraged as well as the boarder to Poland now being policed again. Not to mention that the University is shut down. So you can guess that general mood around here is a bit tense.

Because out local newspaper is of terrible quality, I have to get my information about the local state of outbreak from the local administration - and today, I found this little nugget: (Link (https://www.kreis-vg.de/Kurzmen%C3%BC/Startseite/Zahl-der-mit-Corona-infizierten-Menschen-im-Kreis-weiter-gestiegen.php?object=tx,3079.5&ModID=7&FID=3079.14949.1))

Today's PR statement started with reporting on the death of an elderly person (there has been some infections at an elder care facility here) and stating current number of confirmed cases, as well as a call of patience with regards to delay information on the effectiveness of the measures currently in place.

And it closes with a paragraph responding to complains that the local offices in charge of registering motor vehicles are currently working at a reduced capacity compared to the previous years; which takes up about 1/3 of the statement.
(For tax purposes many people cancel the registration for motorcycles, caravans or RVs during the winter, meaning they are not legally allowed to be moved on public roads until they are given a new registration)

The joy of people with the right priorites.  ;)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 06, 2020, 10:55:48 am
"This is a ****ing first world country (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/a-michigan-congresswoman-the-owner-of-a-sex-toy-company-and-a-global-scramble-to-find-n95-masks/2020/04/05/1035b0ae-768f-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html) - A story of an attempt to get medical PPE in Michigan.  This is insane.

Americans, things are going to get a lot worse in your country before they get better.  Stay home.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 06, 2020, 02:58:33 pm
Bo "shaking hands with everybody" Jo in ICU...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 06, 2020, 04:54:33 pm
Bo "shaking hands with everybody" Jo in ICU...

And I wish him exactly as much care, concern, and attention as he has given to others about this disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 06, 2020, 06:48:28 pm
I've said to friends a few times - I don't wish death from this on anyone, but a good bout of prolonged misery and suffering is cosmic justice at work in the case of certain individuals.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 06, 2020, 08:04:16 pm
I've said to friends a few times - I don't wish death from this on anyone, but a good bout of prolonged misery and suffering is cosmic justice at work in the case of certain individuals.

I was going to say pretty much the same thing. His plan was for most of the country to catch the virus. Perhaps having gone through it, he'll have a bit more sympathy for those who are.

EDIT: I wanted to share this comment I saw on YouTube in response to claims that America is facing its Pearl Harbour moment.

Quote
This isn’t a Pearl Harbor moment where an enemy country attacked America by surprise. This is our Chernobyl moment. Something we could see coming, we had ample warnings about it, but the government ignored the experts and then tried to make it look less bad after it was out of control.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: perihelion on April 06, 2020, 11:21:30 pm
That is so on point it hurts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 07, 2020, 01:46:56 am
What is the cost of lies?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 07, 2020, 05:19:15 am
https://imgur.com/ZIJKeE3
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on April 07, 2020, 06:35:27 am
It's The Sun, so maybe I should have expected this.


Enjoy your slow TV while it's up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on April 07, 2020, 07:09:15 pm
The thing that's really disturbing about jr2 is that he still doesn't give a **** about the disease. He's never managed to make the leap to talking about the pandemic as a serious issue. All he cares about is whether Trump did good or bad and what the liberals think about it.


#FakeNews, I pretty much only try to counter what I view as egregious bias (aka TDS).  The tipping point was the comment that the US was handling this worse than Iran.  You (the people that are lunatic enough to believe that kind of tripe just because Orange Man Bad) can **** right off with that load of bull****.  FFS you've got George Conway defending Trump sometimes now.  Never Trumpers.  Defending Trump.  Be better FFS (to the TDS infected in general).

EDIT:  And just for your information Batts, I follow Styxhexenhammer666 on Youtube.  He's been treating this as a serious issue since what, January?  Early February at the least.  K, just checked, January 18:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 07, 2020, 07:26:49 pm
But as I have asked you multiple times, "Why are you spreading bull**** in order to defend again bias?" If people are biased against Trump then you should be able to defend him with the truth. You shouldn't need to misrepresent it in order to prove that you are right and that the news is being biased.

But instead, you've published a series of half-truths, been challenged about them and then simply moved on to the next one. So yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about the truth and are only trying to prove that Trump is great.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on April 07, 2020, 07:35:46 pm
So yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about the truth and are only trying to prove that Trump is great.

Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist.  However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world.  He's just normal.  How can anyone with a ****ing straight face claim Trump wasn't taking this seriously enough when we had Pelosi, Newsom, the Nevada governor etc in February encouraging mass gatherings in Chinatown, Mardi Gras, and basically insisting that Trump's only reason for closing off travel to China was racism (instead of simply an abundance of caution, despite the WHO claiming no person to person transmission based on China saving face by burying this for 3 weeks), and THEN turn around and blame Trump for dragging his feet because he basically implied it would blow over?

Think about this from Trump's view: the 'experts' claimed this was a nothingburger despite signs counter to that.  Trump plays it safe.  He probably figures he's gotten ahead of this and shut it down.  Not realizing that the situation in China was actually much, much worse than it appeared, and the WHO was relaying bad data from the CCP.

https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronavirus-china/en/
January 12 2020
Quote
According to the preliminary epidemiological investigation, most cases worked at or were handlers and frequent visitors to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market. The government reports that there is no clear evidence that the virus passes easily from person to person.

EDIT: A source for the claim CCP was stonewalling this and knew much earlier: https://nypost.com/2020/02/29/china-officials-knew-of-coronavirus-in-december-ordered-cover-up-report-says/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 07, 2020, 07:56:21 pm
So yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about the truth and are only trying to prove that Trump is great.

Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist.  However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world.  He's just normal.  How can anyone with a ****ing straight face claim Trump wasn't taking this seriously enough when we had Pelosi, Newsom, the Nevada governor etc in February encouraging mass gatherings in Chinatown, Mardi Gras, and basically insisting that Trump's only reason for closing off travel to China was racism (instead of simply an abundance of caution, despite the WHO claiming no person to person transmission based on China saving face by burying this for 3 weeks), and THEN turn around and blame Trump for dragging his feet because he basically implied it would blow over?

Think about this from Trump's view: the 'experts' claimed this was a nothingburger despite signs counter to that.  Trump plays it safe.  He probably figures he's gotten ahead of this and shut it down.  Not realizing that the situation in China was actually much, much worse than it appeared, and the WHO was relaying bad data from the CCP.

https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronavirus-china/en/
January 12 2020
Quote
According to the preliminary epidemiological investigation, most cases worked at or were handlers and frequent visitors to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market. The government reports that there is no clear evidence that the virus passes easily from person to person.

EDIT: A source for the claim CCP was stonewalling this and knew much earlier: https://nypost.com/2020/02/29/china-officials-knew-of-coronavirus-in-december-ordered-cover-up-report-says/

Easy counterpoint.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/world/coronavirus-live-news-updates.html#link-398ba6e7

Quote
A top White House adviser starkly warned Trump administration officials in late January that the coronavirus crisis could cost the United States trillions of dollars and put millions of Americans at risk of illness or death.

The warning, written in a memo by Peter Navarro, President Trump’s trade adviser, is the highest-level alert known to have circulated inside the West Wing as the administration was taking its first substantive steps to confront a crisis that had already consumed China’s leaders and would go on to upend life in Europe and the United States
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 07, 2020, 08:27:53 pm
Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist.  However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world.

And the solution to that is to start lying yourself? You have repeatedly misrepresented the truth on this thread, and you wonder why no one believes you?

Besides, even that last comment is a lie. Where on this thread has anyone seriously said that Trump is a genius? The entire thread has pointed out that he's dangerously incompetent. So now you've gone from misrepresenting the truth about Trump to trying to gaslight us about what we've said about him!


EDIT: Gerrymandering is sooooo last year, let's try gerrymurdering (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52208440)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 08, 2020, 01:03:47 am
*more bull**** from jr2*

jr2, why are you continuing to spread bull**** in order to defend against perceived bias?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 08, 2020, 01:05:54 am
#FakeNews, I pretty much only try to counter what I view as egregious bias (aka TDS).  The tipping point was the comment that the US was handling this worse than Iran.  You (the people that are lunatic enough to believe that kind of tripe just because Orange Man Bad) can **** right off with that load of bull****.  FFS you've got George Conway defending Trump sometimes now.  Never Trumpers.  Defending Trump.  Be better FFS (to the TDS infected in general).

Is it egregious bias to point out that the Trump administration's response to covid-19 has been a complete disaster of downplaying, miscommunication and lack of coordination?
Is the fact that Iran has had fewer cases per capita than the US egregious bias?
Is it egregious bias to point out that the Iranian government started taking measures earlier than the US did?

If you're trying to dispell the notion that you're only in this thread to defend the Trump administration against criticism, you've failed. If you're trying to position yourself as a rational person, your use of the old "Trump Derangement Syndrome" bit or the "orange man bad" meme is severely undercutting your arguments.

EDIT:  And just for your information Batts, I follow Styxhexenhammer666 on Youtube.  He's been treating this as a serious issue since what, January?  Early February at the least.  K, just checked, January 18

Believe it or not, jr2, we were already fully aware that you were getting your information on a variety of topics from sources that are, shall we say, not actually good. That that source was being a stopped clock on this topic does not make him any less of an idiot (and before you even start: Anyone who tries to argue that the Holocaust wasn't as bad as it was, even if they later recant, is an idiot and absolutely not trustworthy in my book).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 08, 2020, 02:30:40 am
Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist.  However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world.  He's just normal.  How can anyone with a ****ing straight face claim Trump wasn't taking this seriously enough when we had Pelosi, Newsom, the Nevada governor etc in February encouraging mass gatherings in Chinatown, Mardi Gras, and basically insisting that Trump's only reason for closing off travel to China was racism (instead of simply an abundance of caution, despite the WHO claiming no person to person transmission based on China saving face by burying this for 3 weeks), and THEN turn around and blame Trump for dragging his feet because he basically implied it would blow over?

And here you are, once again being very selective in what you consider relevant. You excuse Trump's behaviour by claiming that he was following "expert" advice -- but how "expert" could this advice really have been, when very relevant positions in pandemic preparedness, including having people on the ground in China actually looking at what was going on, were unfilled?
How "expert" can any advice Trump gets really be when he leaves agencies chronically understaffed and prefers to have "acting" people in roles that require familiarity with the subject matter to be effective?

You are, again and again, claiming that Trump couldn't have done any better. Hell, Trump himself claims that. If Trump had taken office in January, that might have been a good point -- but he didn't. He not only reacted badly during this crisis, his entire management style in the months and years before the outbreak created conditions conducive to your country now suffering the worst outbreak amongst first world nations. You trying to spread blame around by saying that other people in the US' government were also giving bad advice does not change the fact that, at the root of it all, there's Trump's unreadiness for the office he now occupies. The United States, under Trump, have become incredibly fragile as this crisis shows, and your and his desperate attempts to shift blame are as transparent as they are pathetic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 03:40:40 am
It should be noted that JR2 being the only rational person in a forum full of people that suffer from mental illnesses is, off course, the fault of the CCP.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 04:09:26 am
I think it's important to note that jr2's deflections continue to be about grabbing information from early january, and not updates to that information in late january, february, and early march, to defend against critique that is being levelled against the Trump administration in late march and now.

Segue into: Trump's continued focus into quack medicine or how the federal "airbridge" is about enriching private companies rather then getting states the supplies they need (https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/04/07/moronic-consistent-outrage-over-trump-admin-giving-ppe-private-companies-not-states).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on April 08, 2020, 04:11:43 am
Actually, no, it isn't the fault of CCP. Both CCP and these illnesses exist because of some primary underlying problem in people's mentality. :P

And of course, Trump has predicted the outbreak years ahead and thinned out every service in order to achieve maximum social and economic impact in early 2020!


The linked article also states:
Quote
WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available on this event.
Does mjn's "counterpoint" (basically an statement: we warned but Trump always does the opposite) even carry any information?

Let's see, so 12th Jan, WHO states that nobody should restrict travel to/from China. 29th Jan, the advisor warns about the severity of the danger. Between the two dates two things supposedly happen at the same time: Trump attempts to preemptively reduce traffic with China (jr2, any sources?), and Trump also downplays the risk (anyone?).

Let's be serious, now that we have some hindsight into the matter, *everyone* could have done better, possibly even to the point of having none cases without any internal anti-pandemic measures (that is, locking the borders).

Does jr2 even state that Trump did everything perfectly and nothing more could've been done, or it was just inferred because instead of hopping onto the "blame Trump" train he attempted to correct some points of the discussion towards something that doesn't outright blame Trump for everything?


This discussion reminds me of some cases of immigrants being kicked out of the US during Obama's presidency, or having procedures leading to it mostly completed during Obama's presidency and finished by Trump administration. Then they're causing a big ruckus in the television and internet about how "evil Trump has ilegally kicked them out of the US", to the standing ovations of every piece of anti-Trump audience.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on April 08, 2020, 04:44:15 am
Oh look, it gets even better. 5G conspiracy crowd intensifies: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/884jkb/people-in-the-uk-are-burning-5g-phone-towers-because-conspiracy-theorists-claim-they-spread-coronavirus (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/884jkb/people-in-the-uk-are-burning-5g-phone-towers-because-conspiracy-theorists-claim-they-spread-coronavirus)


Edit:
Hmm, looks like Polish police officers are issuing tickets for people who dared to walk out without any gloves or to... wash your car. Note, no law to enforce this had been passed. Out of many things that got locked, there's the eyebrow-raising lockup of forests and parks. Just, why?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 08, 2020, 04:58:17 am
Let's see, so 12th Jan, WHO states that nobody should restrict travel to/from China. 29th Jan, the advisor warns about the severity of the danger. Between the two dates two things supposedly happen at the same time: Trump attempts to preemptively reduce traffic with China (jr2, any sources?), and Trump also downplays the risk (anyone?).

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETkfesaXgAEbbXd?format=jpg&name=900x900)

Trump was busy downplaying events all through March.

Also, Trump did reduce traffic coming in from China ... long after the virus had already reached the US. He tried to ban travel from Europe -- but, interestingly, he excluded countries with Trump holdings from those restrictions.

Basically, the US government wasted February and most of March by not actually preparing for the epidemic that everyone who was actually paying attention could see coming.

Quote
Does jr2 even state that Trump did everything perfectly and nothing more could've been done, or it was just inferred because instead of hopping onto the "blame Trump" train he attempted to correct some points of the discussion towards something that doesn't outright blame Trump for everything?

Quote
Think about this from Trump's view: the 'experts' claimed this was a nothingburger despite signs counter to that.  Trump plays it safe.  He probably figures he's gotten ahead of this and shut it down.  Not realizing that the situation in China was actually much, much worse than it appeared, and the WHO was relaying bad data from the CCP.

Here's jr2 claiming that Trump was led astray by "experts".

Quote
This discussion reminds me of some cases of immigrants being kicked out of the US during Obama's presidency, or having procedures leading to it mostly completed during Obama's presidency and finished by Trump administration. Then they're causing a big ruckus in the television and internet about how "evil Trump has ilegally kicked them out of the US", to the standing ovations of every piece of anti-Trump audience.

You don't get it, do you. Trump is the President of the United States. He is ultimately responsible for everything the executive agencies of the US do or do not do. It does not matter whether he instituted the policies his agencies are following or whether it was one of his predecessors: That is an important factor to consider when it comes to assigning full responsibility, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened on his watch, following procedures he or his deputies acting under his authority signed off on.
As President, disaster response and disaster preparedness are fully under his remit. He could have made sure that the federal agencies responsible for responding here were adequately staffed, trained and empowered to do what is necessary, but chose not to. He could have established clear lines of decisionmaking early on, but chose not to. He is, in short, to blame.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 05:12:42 am
Mito, some of the points you ask about have already been discussed earlier in the thread.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 08, 2020, 05:15:26 am
Are we even throwing into the dustbin of history the mere fact that in 2018 Trump zapped the entire US pandemic response team, and with it the *one* team that could have prepared and organized the federal response to this crisis and averted its current numbers?

What was that Trump said about this?

“Well, I just think it’s a nasty question. And when you say me — I didn’t do it. We have a group of people I could —”

“It’s your administration,” Alcindor interjected.

“I could ask perhaps, it’s my administration, but I could perhaps ask Tony about that, because I don’t know anything about it,” the president said, gesturing towards Dr. Fauci, who was not involved in disbanding the team, but had expressed regret that it was no longer there. “I mean, you say we did that. I don’t know anything about it,”

(The Intercept)

Criminal negligence 101. But I'm sure we can also blame the CCP about this. Or the Libs. Or Pelosi, somehow (apparently, the IDW is tasked of doing this).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 08, 2020, 05:25:44 am
Criminal negligence 101. But I'm sure we can also blame the CCP about this. Or the Libs. Or Pelosi, somehow (apparently, the IDW is tasked of doing this).

No, we agreed at the last reptilian world leadership retreat that that task would be delegated to CNN.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 05:27:33 am
Y'all keep talking about these retreats but I'm never invited :(

Soros never calls either  :(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 06:16:44 am
Mito, the US presidency has the power to appoint public officials. So each and every position in the US government can be filled or changed by the will of the US presidency. A lot of the people you see in leadership positions in the federal government right now are Trump picks. It's not uncommon for any presidency to do this, mind, although Trump is unique in that he has often chosen not to fill in positions of people who resigned or were sacked. The short version is that Trump picks who serves under him. With great power comes great responsibility.

Perhaps more importantly, Trump and Pence are also the people who were voted in to have these powers. The buck would already stop with the President either way, but he's especially important becuase the President primarily answers to the people, whilst the President's appointees answer to, well, the President directly and the people indirectly. If you as a US resident (for some bizarre reason) dislike Anthony Fauci you can't vote him out, you have to vote for a president that promises to replace him.

Quote
This discussion reminds me of some cases of immigrants being kicked out of the US during Obama's presidency, or having procedures leading to it mostly completed during Obama's presidency and finished by Trump administration. Then they're causing a big ruckus in the television and internet about how "evil Trump has ilegally kicked them out of the US", to the standing ovations of every piece of anti-Trump audience.

there's a thread on here about immigration policy (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=94839.0)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 06:32:17 am
can't even ****ing finish my posts in peace without bull**** like this cropping up (https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-04-07/hospitals-washington-seize-coronavirus-supplies).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 08, 2020, 06:35:07 am
Update on current situation in Slovakia (population 5,5 million): 17,693 tested, 581 infected, 13 cured, 2 dead. Still no clear evidence of community spread. As of this morning we have a general ban on going outside, until Easter is over. Exceptions are for essential business employees going to/from work, people going to buy food/essential items, visiting a doctor and going on a trip into nature (must be inside your county and practicing social distancing). Wearing a mask outside is compulsory. Police are stationed on major intersections and county borders, checking cars, resulting in big traffic jams.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 08, 2020, 07:54:00 am
Also, Trump did reduce traffic coming in from China ... long after the virus had already reached the US.

You know what's funny. No one ever talks about how effective that ban was. How many people do you think travelled to the US in February and March from China AFTER the ban was instituted? A couple of hundred people? Maybe a thousand?

Try 40,000! (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html) 40,000 people who were in China during the virus outbreak have flown to the US in the last two months despite the supposed ban on travel. Now admittedly that is a reduction from the number travelling in January. But if 40,000 people came from China into the US, virtually unscreened, let's not allow anyone to claim that this did very much to halt coronavirus at all. Especially when it was after the virus was already in the country, as you said.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 08, 2020, 08:12:48 am
The thing that's really disturbing about jr2 is that he still doesn't give a **** about the disease. He's never managed to make the leap to talking about the pandemic as a serious issue. All he cares about is whether Trump did good or bad and what the liberals think about it.


#FakeNews, I pretty much only try to counter what I view as egregious bias (aka TDS).  The tipping point was the comment that the US was handling this worse than Iran.  You (the people that are lunatic enough to believe that kind of tripe just because Orange Man Bad) can **** right off with that load of bull****.  FFS you've got George Conway defending Trump sometimes now.  Never Trumpers.  Defending Trump.  Be better FFS (to the TDS infected in general).

EDIT:  And just for your information Batts, I follow Styxhexenhammer666 on Youtube.  He's been treating this as a serious issue since what, January?  Early February at the least.  K, just checked, January 18:

You are still talking about Trump and the media. Who was right, who was wrong, who made the right posts on the right dates. Who said Trump was good or bad. Who scored the most points. All you seem to care about is the game of perception.

There are more people dead in my hometown than in all of Iran.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 08, 2020, 08:16:16 am
In reply to an accusation that you don’t think or care about the disease, you talked about Trump Derangement Syndrome, George Conway, and a YouTube channel.

You worm.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Nightmare on April 08, 2020, 08:22:07 am
EDIT:  And just for your information Batts, I follow Styxhexenhammer666 on Youtube.  He's been treating this as a serious issue since what, January?  Early February at the least.

I legit have no idea who this guy is, but if I'd follow some dude called "Styxhexenhammer666" I'd rather expect him to give reviews about heavy metal albums then reliable news about a dangerous virus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 08, 2020, 08:25:49 am
He follows the right YouTube channel. My father is infected, my mother is infected, she got it from him, he got it from his student in a little college in a little town. A man on YouTube said it was a big problem. There is no more room in the morgues so the dead are stacked in trucks. China faked the numbers. The economy has to be saved. The important thing is to assure ourselves that Trump did everything possible. Only sixty thousand will die. No great loss.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 08, 2020, 08:42:15 am
Sorry to hear that Battuta. I'm sure I speak for all of HLP in saying that our thoughts are with you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 08:58:12 am
Also, Trump did reduce traffic coming in from China ... long after the virus had already reached the US.

You know what's funny. No one ever talks about how effective that ban was. How many people do you think travelled to the US in February and March from China AFTER the ban was instituted? A couple of hundred people? Maybe a thousand?

Try 40,000! (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html) 40,000 people who were in China during the virus outbreak have flown to the US in the last two months despite the supposed ban on travel. Now admittedly that is a reduction from the number travelling in January. But if 40,000 people came from China into the US, virtually unscreened, let's not allow anyone to claim that this did very much to halt coronavirus at all. Especially when it was after the virus was already in the country, as you said.

I mean, it was super obvious from the get go that the announcement was only to give the impression of having done something rather then actually doing something. See also: That other speech where Trump's administration had to completely contradict what Trump himself had said minutes earlier.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 09:24:50 am
Everyone else is stuck in an echo chamber, says person whose primary source of news on the coronavirus is an alt-right youtuber.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 08, 2020, 09:25:40 am
He follows the right YouTube channel. My father is infected, my mother is infected, she got it from him, he got it from his student in a little college in a little town. A man on YouTube said it was a big problem. There is no more room in the morgues so the dead are stacked in trucks. China faked the numbers. The economy has to be saved. The important thing is to assure ourselves that Trump did everything possible. Only sixty thousand will die. No great loss.

This right here echoes my sentiments entirely. It hasn't hit Kansas City hard yet, but it's coming.

Oh by the way, my wife's a nurse with more than 10 years experience. So when it gets bad here, she will be bedside. Did I mention she's pregnant with our fourth kid? Yeah. I'm super glad the economy is top priority and that my pregnant wife's life is fair game to risk.

On the bright side, MO/KS are generally red states, so I guess that means Trump will send the supplies we need.  :doubt:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on April 08, 2020, 09:50:14 am
One death is a tragedy.  One hundred thousand deaths is the CCP's fault.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 08, 2020, 09:58:27 am
Everyone else is stuck in an echo chamber, says person whose primary source of news on the coronavirus is an alt-right youtuber.

When you think about it aren't we still picking up echoes of the Big Bang?? Which just proves reality is the biggest echo chamber of them all???
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on April 08, 2020, 10:11:06 am
<snip quotes>
There are more people dead in my hometown than in all of Iran.

Wow. I hope you're safe and your loved ones heal well. I wish you and the people of your town lots of strength when the time to rebuild comes. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on April 08, 2020, 10:12:19 am
Everyone else is stuck in an echo chamber, says person whose primary source of news on the coronavirus is an alt-right youtuber.

Yeah, I finally looked this guy up because some alt-right jackass has been spamming his **** for weeks on another forum I visit, and goddamn he's a piece of **** (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Styxhexenhammer666).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 08, 2020, 10:16:08 am
What kind of content would you expect someone who doesn't give a **** about human life unless it's a Republican to like?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 08, 2020, 10:33:50 am
if they are leftist.

Any credibility you might have at all just evaporated with these four words.  This has nothing to do with political ideology.  By EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, the American federal government has failed in its response to this pandemic and made the situation in the United States far worse than it needed to be.  The United States had the highest pandemic preparedness rating in the world going into this, and has fared demonstrably worse than every other first-world democracy whose data we can trust.  It might actually be doing worse than China, which you keep harping on, although for obvious reasons the Chinese data is untrustworthy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 08, 2020, 10:47:24 am
No but see you don't understand unless they constantly worship at the altar of Our Lord and Savior Donald John Trump they're not really people so their deaths don't count
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 10:50:12 am
if they are leftist.

Any credibility you might have at all just evaporated with these four words.  This has nothing to do with political ideology.  By EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, the American federal government has failed in its response to this pandemic and made the situation in the United States far worse than it needed to be.  The United States had the highest pandemic preparedness rating in the world going into this, and has fared demonstrably worse than every other first-world democracy whose data we can trust.  It might actually be doing worse than China, which you keep harping on, although for obvious reasons the Chinese data is untrustworthy.

No MP-Ryan you're a leftist now. Don't you know the lyrics of the Internationale by heart?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 10:54:55 am
Everyone else is stuck in an echo chamber, says person whose primary source of news on the coronavirus is an alt-right youtuber.

When you think about it aren't we still picking up echoes of the Big Bang?? Which just proves reality is the biggest echo chamber of them all???
OMG outer wilds was political commentary after all

(Obligatory reminder to please go and play Outer Wilds, it's the best space game of all time)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on April 08, 2020, 11:04:15 am
<snip>
It might actually be doing worse than China, which you keep harping on, although for obvious reasons the Chinese data is untrustworthy.

Even though Chinese data might be untrustworthy, we also have other sources. The WHO states in today's Situation Report (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200407-sitrep-78-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=bc43e1b_2) that there are 83k cases in China. China says it's about 81k. It's close enough to be a statistical error.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on April 08, 2020, 11:06:32 am
Everyone else is stuck in an echo chamber, says person whose primary source of news on the coronavirus is an alt-right youtuber.

Yeah, I finally looked this guy up because some alt-right jackass has been spamming his **** for weeks on another forum I visit, and goddamn he's a piece of **** (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Styxhexenhammer666).

Getting myself banned from the DBB for the last three-ish years was probably a blessing in disguise.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 08, 2020, 11:17:00 am
Y'all need to stop using those acronyms for us poor not-english-speakers :P

Are you talking about the Dienst Bewaken en Beveiligen?

the Dongense Biljart Bond?

Double Ball Bearings?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on April 08, 2020, 11:23:36 am
The Descent Bulletin Board. And no, BF, shockingly enough it was a different forum with a resident neo-Nazi cretin. We've pretty much driven out all of the DBB trolls through sheer persistence...well, except when woody comes back every few months because I guess he needs a whipping.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 08, 2020, 12:02:10 pm
I feel more than a little bit churlish and selfish for wanting to post this here, especially since a lot more people are presently at a lot more risk than I am at the moment, but I just got back my covid test results yesterday. Thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it was negative. So as of last Friday, I don't have the coronavirus.

My problem now is, after having taken two weeks off from working at the supermarket to recover from what turned out to be a common cold (not even the flu because I also tested negative for influenza), I have to decide if I want/need to go back to what is essentially the frontlines of this outbreak (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/06/supermarket-workers-deaths-coronavirus-/). I always appreciated it when customers thanked me for working at the supermarket during this crisis, but their thanks won't be of much comfort if I get sick and die just by going to work.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 09, 2020, 12:23:34 am
Bad news from Slovakia: over past few days the government implemented targeted testing of gypsy settlements and ghettos. There are over a thousand of these settlements in our country. As they have bad hygienic conditions, the risk of infection spread for Corona (basic reproduction number) R0 is estimated to be over 10, compared to 2-3 for general population. They also often tend to travel to western Europe for low paying work, which is another risk factor.

Testing first 30 of these settlements uncovered 5 of them have over 30 infected in total, and also first cases of possible community spread. These five settlements are now in quarantine. Extrapolating on all thousand settlements, we may have 1000+ cases that we don't yet know about, and spreading like fire.

Due to the nature of this pandemic, i.e. spread by international flights from Wuhan, we were "lucky" that it hit higher classes and wealthier countries first, which have the means to somewhat deal with it and slow the spread. This luck now seems to be running out...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 09, 2020, 03:01:27 am
Trump promotes the use of hydroxychloroquine

Trump owns stock in companies that make it. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html)

Is anyone even the slightest bit surprised?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 09, 2020, 09:42:41 am
****ing hell, more people are now dying in the US daily then people in other countries have died in total.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 09, 2020, 09:43:44 am
****ing hell, more people are now dying in the US daily then people in other countries have died in total.

Take that, world. We're number one!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 09, 2020, 09:51:24 am
It's official. I'm tired of winning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 09, 2020, 09:51:50 am
Amazingly though, trump chooses to blame the WHO (you know the single entity that eradicated smallpox in 81) and threatens to withdraw support.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 09, 2020, 10:12:43 am
AmazinglyPredictably though, trump chooses to blame the WHO (you know the single entity that eradicated smallpox in 81) and threatens to withdraw support.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 09, 2020, 10:58:47 am
I suppose, even though the stupidity behind that move is baffling.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 09, 2020, 11:20:20 am
****ing hell, more people are now dying in the US daily then people in other countries have died in total.

There are only 10 countries in the entire world that have had more deaths in total than the UK had on Wednesday alone. It's almost like electing a complete ****ing moron has repercussions.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on April 09, 2020, 12:13:59 pm
Some good video on chloroquine because it's revelant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILowf7Tw7QY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILowf7Tw7QY)

I don't agree with Trump's call out that chloroquine is one of the possible coronavirus cures, in the spirit that a leader of a country must treat its populace as idiots they are, and if they get a notification of some cure, they will panic, compromise the supply of the drug (by buing it the **** out), die from overdosing (and this applies to every substance used as medicine and many others) or from ingesting something totally different and dangerous.

That said this looks like a good lead to me. The fact that some people are worthy of Darwin award here (self-medicine without any knowledge of proper treatment methods, doing so without any actual reason to other than panic, overdosing, and overdosing the wrong thing anyway) should not change the view on the research into it.

As for the research itself, I emphasise with the researchers. Surely the entire state of affairs in French healthcare system doesn't make attempting this research properly and with accordance with all the rules any easier. A good course of action would be to not drop chloroquine into the trash bin, but make sure we have properly conducted research on it with definitive and documented results, preferably as soon as possible.

Exempt from the video: on March 20th, the FDA approved chloroquine to be used, but only in hospitals. That is, places where a patient can be monitored for dangerous side effects.


As for the financial interest in chloroquine... Surely every single dollar Trump doesn't earn from this is worthy of any price, including thousands of dead.
Right?



Right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 09, 2020, 01:30:19 pm
Don't get medical news from random YouTubers.  There are numerous papers [in the public domain] on this subject, all of which are infinitely more credible than some random dude who claims to be a licensed medical practitioner in the US.

Chloroquine and its related compounds need extensive clinical testing before we will know if they are suitable for use, and numerous trials are underway researching this issue.  Notably, the CDC stripped some information on use off its website this week as there have been adverse cardiac interactions.

In short, the only people who should be talking about specific drugs and treatments right now are the doctors and researchers using them.  There are way too many opinions and half-baked ideas coming out from people who read one article in a paper and listening to a speech by some random politician or a YouTube video by some half-informed quack and there isn't near enough actual goddamn science on the subject.  I'm seeing morons on Twitter advocating cancellation of all control measures and we should just start dosing everyone with drugs because they are safe in another context and its an emergency.

ARGH.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 09, 2020, 01:50:10 pm
Agreed, not to mention that chloroquine is actually being prescribed for a number of reasons (lupus being one of them if I recall) and that that kind of rush might prevent people who absolutely need the drug to access it.

Also, just as a reminder: what is being investigated right now as a potential prescription for covid19 patients is NOT chloroquine alone but chloroquine and azythromycin combined. Many people tend to circulate half truths/half omitted stuff throughout YouTube of no value whatsoever, and the general public should be advised to stay away from this chaff. If you really want to read worthwhile info, get the publications off pubmed. Simple as that.

Another point of contention is at what stage of the disease should the treatment be administered. Basically there comes a point in the disease where viral charge isn’t so much of a problem as lung scarring. As such, allowing patients in the final stage of the disease to access a treatment aiming to lower viral charge might not be that good a plan.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 09, 2020, 05:41:27 pm
As for the financial interest in chloroquine... Surely every single dollar Trump doesn't earn from this is worthy of any price, including thousands of dead.

There is a massive difference between pointing out why Trump might be pushing an almost completely untested drug as a cure and saying that doctors shouldn't be trying promising leads.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 10, 2020, 01:51:05 am
Just....

Jesus. ****ing. Christ.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1248374630399672321

Mass graves. Bodies in cheap boxes, piled 3 deep into a shallow pit, because they had no next of kin or their families were unable to pay for an actual funeral. In god damn New York City.

If this doesn't make you furious, if all you care about is scoring points on some imaginary scoreboard by deflecting criticism of your governments' handling of this affair by pointing out how evil the chinese are, get. ****ing. lost. Leave this forum and never, ever return.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 10, 2020, 04:34:06 am
I am quite serious about this. There are mass graves being dug and filled in New York, and Trump is on Twitter, talking about how unfair the media is to him in not reporting on the TV ratings his disinformation sessions get.

Congratulations, Goober, jr2, all you other ****ing ghouls: You got the President you wished for. Are you happy yet? Are you winning enough yet? Is America finally Great Again? Are the liberals triggered enough for your taste?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Enioch on April 10, 2020, 04:39:25 am

Mass graves. Bodies in cheap boxes, piled 3 deep into a shallow pit, because they had no next of kin or their families were unable to pay for an actual funeral. In god damn New York City.


This does not make me furious. This is normal. This does not even register anymore. This is the legacy of a pandemic and we have seen it in Italy and China and every other country that has been hit hard by the virus. And I fail to see why the 'god damn New York City' bit is relevant or should be rage-inducing. If anything, the fact that NYC is a city that tends to stack people like sardines in every social context means that things could be much worse (and might still get worse). At this point, after seeing my neighboring country resort to using military convoys to ship bodies to other cities for cremation, I'm afraid to say that all I can mange is a lukewarm 'OK, this is a thing that is happening' and get back to work.

if all you care about is scoring points on some imaginary scoreboard by deflecting criticism of your governments' handling of this affair by pointing out how evil the chinese are

This, on the other hand, makes me furious.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 10, 2020, 04:56:26 am
This does not make me furious. This is normal. This does not even register anymore. This is the legacy of a pandemic and we have seen it in Italy and China and every other country that has been hit hard by the virus. And I fail to see why the 'god damn New York City' bit is relevant or should be rage-inducing. If anything, the fact that NYC is a city that tends to stack people like sardines in every social context means that things could be much worse (and might still get worse). At this point, after seeing my neighboring country resort to using military convoys to ship bodies to other cities for cremation, I'm afraid to say that all I can mange is a lukewarm 'OK, this is a thing that is happening' and get back to work.

I can understand your perspective.

Me, however... the thought of people being sacrificed on the altar of one leader's vanity, who ignored repeated warnings, who let disaster preparedness slip in an inexcusable manner, who is right now nervously shuffling around and itching to reopen the country because he is completely unprepared for the situation he finds himself in, makes me angry in a manner I can barely put into words. I am relatively insulated from these tragedies; there are no mass graves here (just the usual completely infuriating refusal by our leadership to act in the interests of the EU as a whole when we could use our relative good fortune to render aid to others), there are comparatively few people who have lost anyone to corona yet here. I can let myself be angry because on some goddamn awful level, the losses and tragedies aren't quite real yet for me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 10, 2020, 05:30:39 am
As an American it doesn't make me angry--I've been angry pretty much every waking moment for the past three and a half years. When this thing started, I graduated from that to incandescent with fury. Right now I'm just riding it out and waiting for the day the bill comes due for these useless, spineless, monstrous, idiotic little ****s.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 10, 2020, 06:41:19 am
Quote
(just the usual completely infuriating refusal by our leadership to act in the interests of the EU as a whole when we could use our relative good fortune to render aid to others)

And you say that as a German! Our (the Dutch) government has been ****ing awful, but well, it's not just them. There's been a strong "They brought this on themselves" sentiment towards the Italians with the people I've spoken to, which is a bit... yeah. It's a bit hypocritical considering we didn't do things much differently from the Italians, Germany was *far* better prepared.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 10, 2020, 07:53:31 am
There's been a strong "They brought this on themselves" sentiment towards the Italians with the people I've spoken to, which is a bit... yeah.

Yeah, that's unfair. Before Italy, most of the world didn't realize how great the danger was. Afterward, there was no excuse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 10, 2020, 08:19:00 am
though jr2 will try very hard to find one
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Enioch on April 10, 2020, 08:22:42 am
Before Italy, most of the world didn't realize how great the danger was.

Let's be honest, now.

Before Italy most of the western world simply refused to believe that a 'first world', technologically advanced, liberal, enlightened nation could suffer as much (if not more) as those uncivilized, backwards, silly and oppressed Chinese from a pandemic

You will not change my mind that the fact that China was the first country to be hit by COVID was a major factor in how western countries responded to the disease. There is still (and there probably always will be) an undercurrent of racism in how we (Europe, US, 'western' countries) perceive the Far East, and especially China. I'm also pretty sure that many of the measures imposed by the Chinese government were not (originally) imposed by western governments because they had previously been imposed by China (and would therefore be perceived as oppressive, restrictive, and 'not something we enlightened people should do, we are a democracy, we can trust our people to self-regulate, not like the Chinese that are following government regulations to a meme level).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 10, 2020, 10:46:55 am
The PRC ****ing sucks in a lot of ways, but I can't argue that the racist image of China as basically the Human Hive didn't add to a sense of complacency and 'never happen here' in the West.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 10, 2020, 11:01:39 am
As someone who has actually been to Wuhan, the idea that it's some kind of third world city is completely ****ing ridiculous.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Enioch on April 10, 2020, 12:38:49 pm
So, like every other instance of racism then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 10, 2020, 01:38:42 pm
I'm not going to say that the assumption that Wuhan is different from reality is racist, it's definitely ignorant but let's face it, most people in the world had never heard of Wuhan last December, I can't blame them for not knowing what it's like. There definitely are parts of China which are very poor. And there are province capitals which are definitely lower level than a Western city (I'm pretty sure than anyone who has been to Zhengzhou immediately thought of it when they read that!). Wuhan isn't one of those cities but it is pretty close to ones which a much closer to that image.

I do think that the perception that the Chinese MUST have lied about the numbers since the numbers in the US, Italy, etc are so high is racist though. Yes, China has reported fewer cases than Italy or the US. Yes, it's possible that they did lie. But I take exception to the claim that they MUST have lied. China locked down the city of Wuhan when it had 500 cases and the lockdown of the entire country started when there were only 2000. And anyone should see that shutting down the country that hard while the number of cases were still that low should be expected to stop transmissions of the virus. And China STILL had a 40-fold increase in the number of cases after that lockdown.
Then we look at the West. Lockdowns were almost always at much higher levels of infection than in China (if they ever happened). And lockdowns were also less severe than in China where they had measures like only allowing one person from your household to leave to go shopping every other day. Yet China must have lied. Yeah, that's absolutely racist.

I know it's anecdotal evidence, but I've lived in China for 11 years and I don't know anyone, who knows anyone, who had the virus. When I was in Lijiang, the number #1 tourist destination in China they shut down the entire old town on Chinese New Year when they had two cases! I don't think the confirmed cases ever reached double digits. And you know what, I do believe that, I have enough connections in that town to have heard on the grapevine if it was much more.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 10, 2020, 03:00:34 pm
I mean we've all seen HBO's Chernobyl and how much a system of lies can persist to the point that nobody knows the truth any more.

But it should also be noted that err - just about everyone outside the USSR knew more or less immediately that something was up. That was before everyone had an internet connection, and this thing kills people a lot faster then radiation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 10, 2020, 08:14:06 pm
Yep. And although the Chinese government can and does censor Weibo and WeChat, we always hear about the news story trending before it gets censored. If the number of deaths was very high, there would be a lot of stories about it. Not just people extrapolating from the number of urns or how many people decided that they don't need two phone numbers during a pandemic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on April 10, 2020, 08:44:25 pm
This thread debate sections: both sides' issues, summarized (decent job of pointing out that both sides get this wrong):
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 10, 2020, 09:52:42 pm
And yet you've done the exact same thing yourself on this thread, been called out on it and not apologised or even ****ing acknowledged that you did it! So once again, why are you suddenly so incenced when you see someone else doing it?

And did you bother to actually do the due diligence on this video before posting it here? Cause the increase in the number of burials is significant but this video tries really hard to not mention that, simply saying that they've changed from waiting 30 days to waiting 14.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/10/us/new-york-hart-island-burials/index.html

Quote
Usually, about 25 people are buried on the island each week, [NY Press secretary Freddi] Goldstein said. But since coronavirus began claiming victims in the US, she said there are 25 people buried there each day.

Why are you doing the exact same thing you are complaining at other people doing? Repeatedly. After I have repeatedly asked you to stop doing it?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 10, 2020, 11:22:05 pm

Despite being called on it multiple times you still only talk about, or apparently give a **** about, who is winning some abstract political game. You have never even tried to appear to give a **** about people dying. You can only bring yourself to mention the dead when you want to claim there aren't too many of them.

Do you understand that the US now has as many confirmed cases as the next four countries combined? Those are Spain, Italy, Germany, and France.

Do you understand that the US has nearly a third of all confirmed cases in the entire world?

You claim you entered this conversation because you thought it was ridiculous to say Iran was handling the disease better than the US.

Do you realize that there are twice as many cases in New York alone as in all of Iran?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 10, 2020, 11:29:45 pm
And yes, Iran does have a population four times larger than New York State (let alone NYC), and Tehran has the same population as NYC.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 11, 2020, 12:09:17 am
Okay.  This is a thread about a serious public health issue, and as a result I *moderator hat* have a SERIOUS problem with misinformation being posted from third-party origins.  HLP members are free to make whatever bat**** arguments they want within the rules, but this is not becoming some hub of YouTube algorithmic **** being reposted and spread.

Random Youtube videos are not an argument or a credible source, and I am going to start warning people who post them to make an argument rather than actually making the argument themselves with references to credible sources.  Credible sources include [non-exhaustive list for this thread] peer-reviewed journals, public health institutions, and internationally-recognized public health experts.  They do not include *some guy* on YouTube, ever.

TL;DR:  No more ****ing YouTuber-based arguments.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 11, 2020, 12:36:01 am
Thank you MP-Ryan. I wanted to say the same thing but I'm since I'm the one who has been riding jr2 about his partisan bull**** the hardest I felt it might seem like I was being unfair if I did.

Despite being called on it multiple times you still only talk about, or apparently give a **** about, who is winning some abstract political game. You have never even tried to appear to give a **** about people dying. You can only bring yourself to mention the dead when you want to claim there aren't too many of them.

If feel that people on the right don't understand what this is about. Yes there is a political element to this, there always will be, but that's not the main driving force here. People are shouting at Trump about the Coronavirus because we want to see him doing something useful about it. We want him to realise that his inaction is costing lives. That when he spends two hours giving his briefing instead of governing the country, he's spending time that could actually be better spent making sure that people in his country survive the virus when they would otherwise get sick and die from it. That he shouldn't be concentrating on whether Joe Exotic is in prison or settling debts by purging his perceived enemies from the impeachment. That he has a very important job and he should be doing it!

Instead, people on the right care about the election. They care about blaming China. They care about blaming the WHO. What they don't care about is people dying from the virus. They don't demand better testing. They don't demand that doctors have better protective equipment. Who gives a damn about that if it means Trump loses the next election?

I don't even live in America. Why the **** am I angrier about the ****ty way American doctors have been treated than many of the people who actually live there. Why the **** are foreigners like me who won't be directly affected by Trump's policies desperately trying to convince the people on the right who might actually lose family and friends or might even die themselves, to take action and demand better testing and production/distribution of medical necessities? Why the **** have I had to spend the last two months being insulted on message boards and comment sections for telling people that I'm not trying to "keep them in the dark" when I try to warn them that the "candle" they are holding is in fact a lit stick of dynamite!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on April 11, 2020, 01:15:50 am
I've said it many times over the last four years, but this proves it once and for all: the modern American right wing is completely morally bankrupt.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 11, 2020, 06:48:46 am
This thread debate sections: both sides' issues, summarized (decent job of pointing out that both sides get this wrong)

What the hell is wrong with you?`

No, seriously, what is this malfunction that keeps you from parsing and understanding context? My anger at that footage wasn't really about the footage itself, or the mass graves for the poor. Both of those are incidental to the thing that's really angering me, which is the thousands of people who will die today of a disease that could have been controlled, the tens of thousands of people who will be hospitalized and who may face bankruptcy and hardship as a result, the millions of people who have lost their jobs and thus a lot of whatever stability and security they had, all because your leadership was too busy golfing.

That people die to covid-19 was perhaps unavoidable. Even in best-case scenarios like South Korea, people died, and we all know that the measures taken in Korea would have resulted in an armed revolt in the US; but still: This didn't need to happen this way. This graph has, in my mind, no right to exist:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVRXJKxWsAYO4p6?format=jpg&name=large)

But that is the reality of the situation. That's the consequence of months of denial, of downplaying. It's the direct consequence of the american right's embrace of kakistocracy, of minarchy, of austerity; It's a consequence of failures stretching back decades and generations to introduce something, anything resembling a resilient social security net.

You've sown the wind, praying that the free market will find a solution to the storm problem you almost managed to convince yourself doesn't exist, and instead of recognizing that a problem exists and that it is a direct consequence of choices you made, you choose to "correct misconceptions" and point out how Nancy Pelosi was doing bad things and how the PRC really is the real problem here.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 11, 2020, 08:27:27 am
I'm in a pretty rural part of England if not THE most rural part of England, and the locals are being bloody complacent.... I had to go to the shops today to restock.  (I always buy more than we need so we only need to restock every 3 weeks or) and ibwas the only one with any sort of filtered respirator on.   People were doing the 2 meters apart rule queuing up outside the supermarket, then once inside just flitting about as if the distancing measures only applied outdoors when monitored, and looking offended when I told them to back the hell up.   

The sort of people to go over the legal speed limit then blame the speed camera when they get caught.

Sympathies and thoughts to everyone affected on HLP.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 11, 2020, 12:13:47 pm
I mean we don't have enough PPE for the hospitals (oh sorry I forgot, the health secretary says we have enough but those damn selfish doctors and nurses keep wasting it), let alone people going shopping.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Goober5000 on April 11, 2020, 12:55:54 pm
Posting without my moderator hat on, I need to defend jr2 and Trump here.  I haven't watched jr2's videos, but there is an abominable amount of misinformation being published by the media.  As a general rule, they will blatantly lie and misrepresent the current situation, Trump's actions, future projections, and even scientific conclusions.

This is not to take away from the very real threat posed by the pandemic, and my sympathies go to Battuta's family and anyone else who may be affected by the virus or may have family or friends affected.

If you are getting most of your "news" from the mainstream media then you have been deceived, perhaps a little, perhaps a lot.

For example:

If feel that people on the right don't understand what this is about. Yes there is a political element to this, there always will be, but that's not the main driving force here. People are shouting at Trump about the Coronavirus because we want to see him doing something useful about it. We want him to realise that his inaction is costing lives. That when he spends two hours giving his briefing instead of governing the country, he's spending time that could actually be better spent making sure that people in his country survive the virus when they would otherwise get sick and die from it. That he shouldn't be concentrating on whether Joe Exotic is in prison or settling debts by purging his perceived enemies from the impeachment. That he has a very important job and he should be doing it!

The Coronavirus Task Force was formed on January 29 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-regarding-presidents-coronavirus-task-force/).  The travel ban from China was instituted on January 31 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspension-entry-immigrants-nonimmigrants-persons-pose-risk-transmitting-2019-novel-coronavirus/), one day after WHO declared the virus a "global emergency".  The travel ban from Europe was instituted on March 11 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspension-entry-immigrants-nonimmigrants-certain-additional-persons-pose-risk-transmitting-2019-novel-coronavirus/).

Trump's statements that the virus was under control were the consensus of the medical community at the time.  Even as late as March 1 Governor Cuomo said (https://archive.fo/cX4gO#selection-691.86-691.116) "there’s no reason for concern" and on March 11 Mayor DeBlasio said (https://ny.eater.com/2020/3/11/21175497/coronavirus-nyc-restaurants-safe-dine-out) "If you’re not sick, you should be going about your life".

New York has been the hardest hit in the US from the virus.  Why aren't the media going after Cuomo and DeBlasio like they're going after Trump?

Also:

Trump promotes the use of hydroxychloroquine

Trump owns stock in companies that make it. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html)

First, hydroxychloroquine is a generic drug, so owning stock in companies that make it isn't too useful.  Second, do the math (https://www.cernovich.com/sanofi-and-trump/).  Trump owns a maximum of $435 and perhaps as little as $29 worth of stock, hardly a financial ticket.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 11, 2020, 01:12:49 pm
I mean we don't have enough PPE for the hospitals (oh sorry I forgot, the health secretary says we have enough but those damn selfish doctors and nurses keep wasting it), let alone people going shopping.

Don't wait for any government help in a situation like this. 
Everything I've got is self provided.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 11, 2020, 01:15:11 pm
As a general rule, they will blatantly lie and misrepresent the current situation, Trump's actions, future projections, and even scientific conclusions.

man who believes the world is 6000 years old and climate change isn't real lectures others on ignoring scientific conclusions
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on April 11, 2020, 01:25:30 pm
@ all before: you people seem to fail to grasp that I'm merely trying to provide some sort of counterweight to a severely biased response here.  As I've said, but apparently it went whistling right over your head, I have been tracking this as a serious issue since late January / early February.  I believe Goober re-summarized the US leadership response at that time, but should you require more details here's some links to follow (you'll need to research the individual claims though, I don't believe sources were provided):

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1240456708838903810.html  OR  https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1243301449607581697.html   OR  https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1232752316211703809.html

The point isn't that the disease is not a serious threat.  The point isn't that the right-wing leadership was flawless, it wasn't.  The point is that YOUR points claiming the right-wing leadership were incompetent boobs can only be true in a context where the LEFT-wing leadership was EVEN MORE incompetent!   (see: https://twitter.com/SpeakerPelosi/status/1223414099473846273?s=20 )

We can all agree mistakes were made, but if you insist on making these partisan jabs at one side, then claim partisanship when they respond, what gives?

@MP-Ryan: you obviously didn't watch the video, it was one of the clearest non-partisan breakdowns of an issue related to this crisis I've ever seen, and quite excellently done.  If you seriously have a problem with that, then well... I believe I mentioned an echo chamber before?


As a general rule, they will blatantly lie and misrepresent the current situation, Trump's actions, future projections, and even scientific conclusions.

man who believes the world is 6000 years old and climate change isn't real lectures others on ignoring scientific conclusions


Oh, look, I go to post and there appeareth a flying strawman.  Please 2 stay on topix kthxbai.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 02:08:56 pm
do you even read your own posts

Like at this point it's abudently clear that you don't actually read other people's posts or err, the tweets you randomly include in your posts. You're just failing at basic literacy. At this point everyone who is discussing with you is laying out traps and carefully explaining where those traps are, and you're stepping in them with enthusiasm.

Quote from: Goober5000
Trump's statements that the virus was under control were the consensus of the medical community at the time.

Please don't lie. You know damn well that there was a constant clamour for more testing. Hell, just read back the thread.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 11, 2020, 02:18:54 pm
If this doesn't make you furious, if all you care about is scoring points on some imaginary scoreboard by deflecting criticism of your governments' handling of this affair by pointing out how evil the chinese are, get. ****ing. lost. Leave this forum and never, ever return.

This applies to you, jr2.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 11, 2020, 02:20:50 pm
Posting without my moderator hat on, I need to defend jr2 and Trump here.  I haven't watched jr2's videos, but there is an abominable amount of misinformation being published by the media.  As a general rule, they will blatantly lie and misrepresent the current situation, Trump's actions, future projections, and even scientific conclusions.


This is bull**** and you know it. I will explain why.

For example:

The Coronavirus Task Force was formed on January 29 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-regarding-presidents-coronavirus-task-force/).  The travel ban from China was instituted on January 31 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspension-entry-immigrants-nonimmigrants-persons-pose-risk-transmitting-2019-novel-coronavirus/), one day after WHO declared the virus a "global emergency".  The travel ban from Europe was instituted on March 11 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspension-entry-immigrants-nonimmigrants-certain-additional-persons-pose-risk-transmitting-2019-novel-coronavirus/).

Okay, so if the task force was formed at the end of January, why did they wait until mid-March to do anything? Why weren't they preparing plans and guidance for social distancing, contact tracing, scaling up testing to isolate cases, scaling up PPE production and hospital beds and ventilators in the event this escalated into a full-blown crisis. This is the criticism that you dumb right-wing ****s don't seem to get: we had ALL of February to do something and we did nothing.

Trump's statements that the virus was under control were the consensus of the medical community at the time.  Even as late as March 1 Governor Cuomo said (https://archive.fo/cX4gO#selection-691.86-691.116) "there’s no reason for concern" and on March 11 Mayor DeBlasio said (https://ny.eater.com/2020/3/11/21175497/coronavirus-nyc-restaurants-safe-dine-out) "If you’re not sick, you should be going about your life".

I understand that this level of analysis may be hard for somebody who thinks the world is 6000 years old but I will try to explain using small words. Are you ready?

Politicians are not doctors. Politicians are not epidemiologists. The actual doctors and epidemiologists were saying this was a threat in January. Cuomo and de Blasio didn't know what they were talking about, and they were wrong.

Which leads me to this:
New York has been the hardest hit in the US from the virus.  Why aren't the media going after Cuomo and DeBlasio like they're going after Trump?

Because when Cuomo and de Blasio learned that they were wrong, they corrected their assumptions and began taking steps to lessen the impact of the crisis: stay-at-home orders, getting PPE/ventilators/equipment, ramping up testing, publishing data, providing accurate information to the public.

Trump, meanwhile, has doubled and tripled down, consistently saying things are under control (they're not) and saying we can open everything back up soon (we can't) and refusing to learn from his mistakes.

But then, that's the pattern with all you right-wing ****sticks, isn't it. It's never that your assumptions could be wrong, it's that reality is refusing to line up with your ideas. It can't be that Trump ****ed up because he's the perfect God-Emperor, no, it has to be that the media is lying.

Because that's all you care about, isn't it? Scoring political points. The left and the libruls couldn't possibly just be concerned with the fact that hundreds of thousands of lives are at risk, that's just a smokescreen, right? Because, after all, that's the way you look at things. Lives don't matter, must praise orange man.

**** off. Don't come back.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 11, 2020, 02:21:17 pm
do you even read your own posts

Like at this point it's abudently clear that you don't actually read other people's posts or err, the tweets you randomly include in your posts. You're just failing at basic literacy.

i'm not sure jr2 knows what reading is
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 02:27:11 pm
Calling these people "right wing" is doing a disservice to the various right wing governments that are doing things properly tbh. The US is rather deep into far-right bull**** at this point. Hell, just take a look at what jr2 considers "anti-partisan counterweight": The actual trump campaign, a far right organization and a far right blog (do yourself a favour and don't look up what "The conservative treehouse" writes about george soros).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 11, 2020, 02:29:29 pm
I mean there really is no moderate right anymore in the anglosphere.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 02:36:48 pm
I mean there really is no moderate right anymore in the anglosphere.

Centrist democrats would have a word, as would MP-Ryan I'm sure. And perhaps more importantly: There's quite a few posters here who aren't from the anglosphere to begin with. In a thread where the "performance" of the US is compared to that of the wider world, it should constantly be pointed out that in the eyes of the wider world the US has gone off the deep end.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 11, 2020, 02:39:31 pm
I mean yes under anyone else's political system that's what they would be called. They just don't get called that here.

it should constantly be pointed out that in the eyes of the wider world the US has gone off the deep end.

sigh

We know.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 02:42:14 pm
Sorry I should edit my posts less.

Thing is, I'm not "there". E is not there. Hoover is not there. MP-Ryan is not there. That's kinda a key thing that gets overlooked in all these discussions. The US is not just failing from the perspective of the US left, it's failing in the eyes of people across the poltiical spectrum from -across the world-.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 02:43:00 pm
I know you know but I'm being performative to get a point across :P
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 11, 2020, 03:11:27 pm

IMPORTANT:

Since I've been asked, I'm going to clarify the reason for "No more YouTube for arguments" in this thread.

YouTube uses an algorithm to deliver content.  That algorithm does not care about the accuracy of the information or that is comes from legitimate sources.  It is very, VERY easy for someone with a YouTube following to make a video and throw in a number of truthful claims with a number of untruthful claims, and without careful research the viewer will not know the difference.  At present time, there is an IMMENSE amount of mis- and disinformation circulating the internet concerning SARS-CoV-2 (the novel coronavirus) and COVID-19.  For the reasons above, a great deal of that circulates in video - it's much easier to fact-check print and written pieces and check for their sources than it is through someone's 30-60 minute video adventure.  This is also a text-based forum and there is no expectation that thread participants spend ridiculous amounts of time watching argument-by-video-proxy to participate.

I - and I daresay the other moderators as well - lack the time to sit down and watch every video to fact-check it, check the veracity of its sources, and confirm if it is actually truthful.  The other issue is that there is a tendency - when videos are posted - for the poster to rely on the video to make their argument, rather than checking actual sources and making the argument themselves.  Given that this is a declared public health emergency in a great many countries the world over, and that mis- and dis-information actively harms our ability to fight it, under no circumstances is it appropriate for HLP to contribute to the spread of that mis/disinformation. That's what reddit is for =)

This is not to say that people are not free to express their opinions (within forum rules).  If individuals want to reiterate points from videos and be prepared to back up the sourcing of those points from credible external information (e.g. not the video), then that is perfectly acceptable as I have no doubt it will be discussed vigorously by other thread participants.  Similarly, videos from public health authorities, recognized international experts in public health, and from government agencies or politicians are fine.


There will be no further dropping of videos in this thread to make a point for you.  This extends only to this thread; I will remove any further video links that do not conform to the above guidance and replace with a note instead.  In the interest of fairness and to eliminate any perception of bias, I will also refrain from any further commentary about political action or inaction and stick entirely to information-only posts if I'm adding to the thread further.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 11, 2020, 03:20:18 pm
Also, I know many of you are frustrated about the situation and other participants in the thread, but cut the personal attack/sniping nonsense out right now.  Just because 2020 is going to hell in a handbasket does not mean the forum rules got thrown out the window.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 11, 2020, 03:34:58 pm
I haven't watched jr2's videos, but there is an abominable amount of misinformation being published by the media.  As a general rule, they will blatantly lie and misrepresent the current situation, Trump's actions, future projections, and even scientific conclusions.

...

If you are getting most of your "news" from the mainstream media then you have been deceived, perhaps a little, perhaps a lot.

I mean, I know Trump spews this rhetoric on a daily basis so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people who are generally intelligent individuals have started to believe it for real. Of course, that was his goal all along.

See this clip of Trump spewing that nonsense. (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-44959340/donald-trump-what-you-re-seeing-and-what-you-re-reading-is-not-what-s-happening) "What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening" Once his base believes that, of course Trump is now the only one they can trust. It's dictatorship 101 to do this stuff. How do you not see it? It's dangerous, it's hateful, and it's literally splitting our country in two.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 11, 2020, 03:45:16 pm
I mean... I just don't ****ing get it.

The US has more than 6 times the number of cases than China and 6-7 times more deaths. Even if the numbers from China aren't 100% accurate, there's no way they are six times higher than they are right now.

This is what doing a good job looks like to you guys? What is wrong with you? People are dying en mass and we haven't even hit the projected peak infection rate yet! All Trump seems to care about is re-opening the economy. Thank you, those of you who die, for your sacrifice for our money.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 03:49:33 pm
nationalism is one hell of a drug
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 11, 2020, 03:52:52 pm
I don't get the 6000 year old thing. 

Is it true and if so, why is it relevant?  I echo the above re: having time to check every video posted.   Especially now I'm at home and have a wife and kids/man of the house stuff to get on with.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 03:54:57 pm
I don't get the 6000 year old thing. 

Is it true and if so, why is it relevant?

It's relevant becuase Goober5000 frequently rejects scientific evidence when it doesn't suit his beliefs, and then complains that other people are "rejecting scientific evidence" when it doesn't suit his beliefs of what the scientific evidence is. Goober is hypocritical. Even in his latest post he has made claims about the "medical community" that are blatant lies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 11, 2020, 04:03:41 pm
I am going to state, that I'm heavily impartial and neutral here.    But to anyone and everyone and nobody in particular,  if someone doesn't like a particular opinion, or the fact that someone else doesn't like their opinion the world will keep turning, just be the bigger person and move on to another subject.   

Theresa a lot of tension in this topic and I'm staying out of it more than I want to be, so I can be objective if I poke my nose in.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 04:11:17 pm
See this clip of Trump spewing that nonsense. (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-44959340/donald-trump-what-you-re-seeing-and-what-you-re-reading-is-not-what-s-happening)

You're forgetting this ancient classic :P (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/22/trump-inauguration-crowd-sean-spicers-claims-versus-the-evidence)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 11, 2020, 04:15:44 pm
Moving back to criticism of the CCP - the scale of their continuing cover-up is awe-inspiring. Then again, this is the same organization that tried to hide concentration camps and organ harvesting.



And now for some irresponsible speculation. People have been quick to point out that Wuhan is coincidentally home to "the largest virus bank in Asia", the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The idea that the coronavirus escaped from this lab is generally viewed as a conspiracy theory. Regardless of the true origin, my guess is that the CCP feared - at least at the start - that the virus was connected to the lab, and scrambled to investigate. Hence the secrecy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 11, 2020, 04:22:29 pm
That the CCP severely bungled the initial response with a characteristic authoritarian focus on stamping out ‘rumours’ and ‘disruption’, with dire global consequences, is pretty uncontroversial. It doesn’t mean that the subsequent harsh lockdowns and control measures once their weird decisionmaking apparatus took the outbreak seriously weren’t effective at clamping down on the disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 04:30:01 pm
In (tentative) positive news, the Dutch ICUs are no longer having more patients go in then go out.

(no that doesn't mean we suddenly have a 90% fatality rate)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 04:31:36 pm
In other news, Boris Johnson who was totally fine and not in life danger now is saying he owes the NHS his life.

Interesting.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 11, 2020, 04:36:06 pm
Going back to origins, A tiger tested positive for corona recently: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2020/04/tiger-coronavirus-covid19-positive-test-bronx-zoo/

(SPECULATION)
Given the prevalence of Big Cat poaching worldwide, It makes me wonder if that's the animal it came from, If that's the case then the fact it started in china would be just dumb coincidence.
(END SPECULATION)


That said I really doubt that Tigers are the initial carrier.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 11, 2020, 04:37:56 pm
It's actually cats.

The movie was a warning.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 11, 2020, 05:42:43 pm
Goob and jr2, you continue to tell on yourselves by constantly fixating on the issue of who's to blame, whether coverage of the blame is fair, whether people are blaming Trump too much, whether there's 'misinformation,' whether someone's team is winning or losing.

The deafening silence around the actual, objective matter at hand is telling.

Goob jr2 actually managed to formulate the correct response when he said that if the government response was incompetent then the left could be blamed as well as the right. Then he tossed that aside as ridiculous. As if it were unimaginable that anyone could accuse their political allies of incompetence. As if he could not believe anyone would look to objective reality, rather than partisan affiliation, to judge truth.

What matters, right now, is that thousands of people are dying.

What matters, right now, is that the USA's response has been incompetent and ineffective, and that this failure has enormously magnified the number of deaths.

What does not matter is who said what on cable TV on which day. It does not matter whether some national office declared that everything would be fine (it was manifestly not fine). It does not even matter that Donald Trump is president. What matters is that those in power have failed. Whoever they are, they failed to identify and act against a terrible threat.

Was there something specific about Trump and his government to blame for this failure? Maybe. You can argue about that. But you cannot do so by denying that a terrible failure has occurred at all.

Why would people call Trump supporters a death cult? Why would they be so unfair, so irrational, so emotional as to use that language?

Maybe because support for Trump seems more important to you than six hundred thousand sick people and counting. Maybe because it seems like support for Trump obliges you to disavow the scale and severity of this disease.

Maybe you should even consider whether partisan affiliation has blinded you to other major threats coming our way. Threats whose consequences will care as little for cable TV talking points, Twitter screenshots, and retrospective 'we couldn't have known' assessments as this disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 11, 2020, 05:46:09 pm

Why are you ignoring direct questions posed to you regarding the topic of this thread? Do you feel you cannot answer them?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 11, 2020, 05:54:59 pm
Maybe you should even consider whether partisan affiliation has blinded you to other major threats coming our way. Threats whose consequences will care as little for cable TV talking points, Twitter screenshots, and retrospective 'we couldn't have known' assessments as this disease.

the most soberingly realistic part of The 2020 Commission Report on the North Korean Nuclear Attacks Against The United States (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Commission-Report-Nuclear-Attacks-Against/dp/0753553163) was the coda, where it describes the postwar political situation as a deadlock of partisan denial of blame and nobody seems to have learned anything from the utter failure of those in power to avert catastrophe
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 11, 2020, 11:38:26 pm
I originally wanted to post this Family Guy Youtube podcast on the coronavirus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UTZMKVQaYY) in light of MP-Ryan's post on Youtube posting parameters because it's (mostly) apolitical and it's funny as hell.

But after General Battuta's post summing up the situation here...:

What matters, right now, is that thousands of people are dying.

What matters, right now, is that the USA's response has been incompetent and ineffective, and that this failure has enormously magnified the number of deaths.

What does not matter is who said what on cable TV on which day. It does not matter whether some national office declared that everything would be fine (it was manifestly not fine). It does not even matter that Donald Trump is president. What matters is that those in power have failed. Whoever they are, they failed to identify and act against a terrible threat.

Was there something specific about Trump and his government to blame for this failure? Maybe. You can argue about that. But you cannot do so by denying that a terrible failure has occurred at all.

Why would people call Trump supporters a death cult? Why would they be so unfair, so irrational, so emotional as to use that language?

Maybe because support for Trump seems more important to you than six hundred thousand sick people and counting. Maybe because it seems like support for Trump obliges you to disavow the scale and severity of this disease.

Maybe you should even consider whether partisan affiliation has blinded you to other major threats coming our way. Threats whose consequences will care as little for cable TV talking points, Twitter screenshots, and retrospective 'we couldn't have known' assessments as this disease.

Yeah. This. 1,000 times this. There's no question that the Trump administration does not have any (or no longer has) competent people who know how the government functions in order to mitigate the effects of a global pandemic, especially Trump himself. But this can't possibly be a surprise to anyone with at least two brain cells to rub together because it has been plainly obvious for years but especially since 2016 that taking a narcissistic game show host and failed businessman (he went bankrupt 6 times, remember?) who inherited most of his fortune from his father and who never once held elected office before being put in charge of the American freakin' government might not be the best idea when a true global crisis comes along.

Y'know, duh. (https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk00L0M0LFUT_x78-Cb6VmVGIGq92ig:1586666595311&q=duh+meme&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=firefox-b-1-d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiYh6nWieLoAhW0gnIEHbW9BIIQsAR6BAgHEAE&biw=1600&bih=736)

I mean it, if a guy tries to claim to your face that he's a "very stable genius" (who the hell ever calls themselves that?) or that "[he] alone can fix" what's wrong with the entire country (sorry but any country populated with millions of people, never mind a population of 328 million, is too big for any one man to "fix"), your Bullsh!t Detector should be going off the scale. If it's not, then there's something seriously wrong with you. It's friggin' dangerous to be that gullible.

It still boggles my mind that many voters vote as if the US presidential election is nothing more than a popularity contest. It still boggles my mind that they vote for the president of the US based on nothing more on whether they'd like to have a beer with him (I still remember people saying this about voting for GWB back in 2000 and I wouldn't be surprised to learn if some people voted for Trump for this reason too). It still boggles my mind that some people vote without taking the time to consider the serious, life-threatening issues facing our country that require sober and careful consideration and vote instead on who will most "trigger the libs." It used to (but no longer does) boggle my mind that they would rather die than see the nation's resources spent to alleviate the suffering of other Americans who are not like them. (Well, now they just might get that chance since the coronavirus is spreading to rural areas. The only question is how many others, both in the US and around the world, they're going to take with them.)

Then a global crisis like a worldwide pandemic comes along and puts millions of lives at risk. When that sort of thing happens, you, me, and everyone else needs someone competent at the head of the US government to manage and mitigate and resolve that crisis, because only that will save lives that would otherwise be lost. If nothing else, at least hopefully this crisis will remind all American voters to vote in November as if their lives depend on it.

Because they do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Goober5000 on April 12, 2020, 05:14:31 pm
Okay, so if the task force was formed at the end of January, why did they wait until mid-March to do anything? Why weren't they preparing plans and guidance for social distancing, contact tracing, scaling up testing to isolate cases, scaling up PPE production and hospital beds and ventilators in the event this escalated into a full-blown crisis.

They didn't wait until mid-March.  Go back and read the actual press conferences.  Here's what they said on January 31 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/press-briefing-members-presidents-coronavirus-task-force/):

Quote
CDC has launched an aggressive public health response focused on early case recognition, isolation of those cases identified, and contact tracing around those individuals.  This response is a layered response, which includes both targeted airport screening, as well as heightened education and awareness of the American healthcare community to be vigilant in ascertaining the possibility of recent travel to China when they are evaluating patients with upper respiratory tract infection.

Quote
And so, domestically, we’re working on — working with our private sector healthcare preparedness.  We’re working specifically around supply chain resilience because much of our healthcare products come from overseas.  And we’re also working actively with NIH and our DOD colleagues, as well as our DARPA colleagues and the private industry to develop better diagnostics, possible therapeutics, as well as vaccines, which Dr. Fauci can speak more about.

And on February 26 (http://):

Quote
But we’re very, very ready for this, for anything — whether it’s going to be a breakout of larger proportions or whether or not we’re — you know, we’re at that very low level, and we want to keep it that way.

...

The Johns Hopkins, I guess — is a highly respected, great place — they did a study, comprehensive: “The Countries Best and Worst Prepared for an Epidemic.”  And the United States is now — we’re rated number one.  We’re rated number one for being prepared.  This is a list of different countries. ... This is a list of the different countries.  The United States is rated number one most prepared.  United Kingdom, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Thailand, Sweden, Denmark, South Korea, Finland.  These — this is a list of the best-rated countries in the world by Johns Hopkins.

Quote
We’ll also be continuing to reach out to governors, state and local officials.  In fact, in recent days, the White House met with over 40 state, county, and city health officials from over 30 states and territories to discuss how to respond to this — to the potential threat of the coronavirus.  We’ll be working with them in renewed ways to make sure they have the resources to be able to respond.

Quote
Q    Mr. President, have you been any plans that would involve quarantined cities, like we saw in China?  And what would have to happen for you to take a step like that?

THE PRESIDENT:  We do have plans of a much — on a much larger scale, should we need that.  We’re working with states, we’re working with virtually every state.  And we do have plans on a larger scale if we need it.  We don’t think we’re going to need it, but, you know, you always have to be prepared.

Quote
Q    Mr. President, should Americans be going out getting protective equipment such as masks and so forth?  And if so, what is the U.S. doing to boost production of masks?

THE PRESIDENT:  Well, we can get a lot of it.  In fact, we’ve ordered a lot of it just in case we need it.  We may not need it; you understand that.  But in case — we’re looking at worst-case scenario.  We’re going to be set very quickly.

This is the only part of your post even resembling a discussion.  I will not address the rest of it, as it consists of extremely hateful attacks and insults, to which MP-Ryan's warning applies.



I mean, I know Trump spews this rhetoric on a daily basis so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people who are generally intelligent individuals have started to believe it for real. Of course, that was his goal all along.

See this clip of Trump spewing that nonsense. (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-44959340/donald-trump-what-you-re-seeing-and-what-you-re-reading-is-not-what-s-happening) "What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening" Once his base believes that, of course Trump is now the only one they can trust. It's dictatorship 101 to do this stuff. How do you not see it? It's dangerous, it's hateful, and it's literally splitting our country in two.

Lack of trust in the media did not originate with Trump.  The term "lamestream media" has been around since at least the 90s, as has the bumper sticker, "I Don't Believe the Liberal Media!"  The only thing Trump did was crystallize this using the term "fake news".

The media is deceptive, dishonest, manipulative, often untrue, and usually misleading even when it contains elements of truth.  In a word: fake.



Goob and jr2, you continue to tell on yourselves by constantly fixating on the issue of who's to blame, whether coverage of the blame is fair, whether people are blaming Trump too much, whether there's 'misinformation,' whether someone's team is winning or losing.

The deafening silence around the actual, objective matter at hand is telling.

What matters to me is the truth.  In order to be objective, one must possess accurate information.

At least one personal account of a nurse lamenting the current medical situation was fake (https://dailycaller.com/2020/04/06/nurses-viral-story-got-everyones-attention-fell-apart/).

On at least two occasions (https://twitter.com/alx/status/1247949703146278914), the media showed footage of medical facilities in Italy while claiming it was in the US.

The reports of people being buried in mass graves in New York are misleading (https://www.rightjournalism.com/new-yorks-mass-graves-complete-propaganda-video-potters-field-24-people-are-buried-in-a-day-in-normal-times/).

Nobody has the full picture, and the parts of the picture we do have are contradictory, incomplete, and often fraudulent.  So it comes down to who you trust.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2020, 06:05:32 pm
We have the death counts. The number of people who are dead. But all you can do is pick at media accounts; all your energy and your communications bandwidth is bent to one purpose. And it's not giving a **** about the dead. It's protecting a politician from criticism.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2020, 06:06:58 pm
Until you can say, without reservation, that something has gone terribly wrong with the American response to this disease, then you do not care about the truth. You do not care about the dead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2020, 06:19:04 pm
Imagine arguing that "the dead are not being buried in mass graves, they are merely overflowing the morgues and stacking up in refrigerator trucks" is an important distinction to make. Rather than the fact that there are corpses overflowing the morgues.

e: if it is in any way unclear, we have had 700 deaths a day for the past 7 days. That's more than triple the daily deaths US troops suffered on Iwo Jima. There are far more people in NYC than on Iwo Jima, but for an individual and their family, dead is dead.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2020, 07:49:06 pm
As another illustrative comparison, NYC's death rate over the past week is slightly less than triple the daily casualties London experienced during September 1940, the first month of the Blitz.

London at that time had a population comparable to NYC today.

Given the choice between a London under daily German bombing attack and New York in this pandemic, you would be safer by far in London. You'd be more likely to lose your home, I'm sure, but less likely to die.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 12, 2020, 07:51:45 pm
Worth looking at for all:  up-to-date data on detected infections, deaths, testing, etc by country (https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data#confirmed-deaths)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on April 12, 2020, 08:15:03 pm
A bunch of churches in my area decided that they were going to do their regular Easter service today.  This was a permitted exception in Governor Bill Lee's stay-at-home order.  We'll see if those decisions lead to the infection rate climbing higher over the next week or two.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 12, 2020, 08:34:25 pm
A bunch of churches in my area decided that they were going to do their regular Easter service today.  This was a permitted exception in Governor Bill Lee's stay-at-home order.  We'll see if those decisions lead to the infection rate climbing higher over the next week or two.

That stain on the human species Salvini tried to have it as an exception here too, considering there have been cases of contagion due to imbeciles that decided to have their prayer community reunions when the lockdown orders were already issued I'd say there are good probabilities of that happening.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 12, 2020, 09:40:21 pm
And that is the sort of thing that as a Christian, people like Goober could be helping with. Convincing these people that God will listen to them just as well at home. That it isn't worth leaving your house and risking the health of the entire community because of a desire to do something you can do at home.

But instead, he's here arguing that Trump did nothing wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 13, 2020, 02:02:55 am
What matters to me is the truth.  In order to be objective, one must possess accurate information.
. . .
Nobody has the full picture, and the parts of the picture we do have are contradictory, incomplete, and often fraudulent.  So it comes down to who you trust.

I'm curious why you thought this line of argument would work any better for you than it did for jr2.

Well, actually, no I'm not, because I know you're just here to introduce more noise to defend your guy because to admit any failure is an unacceptable display of weakness because you continue to adhere to a toxic hyperpartisan ideology.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 13, 2020, 02:14:01 am
A bunch of churches in my area decided that they were going to do their regular Easter service today.  This was a permitted exception in Governor Bill Lee's stay-at-home order.  We'll see if those decisions lead to the infection rate climbing higher over the next week or two.

That stain on the human species Salvini tried to have it as an exception here too, considering there have been cases of contagion due to imbeciles that decided to have their prayer community reunions when the lockdown orders were already issued I'd say there are good probabilities of that happening.

I thought Sally wasn't part of the government anymore?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 13, 2020, 04:08:25 am
Trump has retweeted (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1249470237726081030) a call to fire Fauci.

Trump's stupidity knows no bounds. Firing Fauci would be political suicide... right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 13, 2020, 05:35:08 am
Goober manages to convince me that the US is completely doomed for blind ignorance and misplaced loyalty towards the worst aspects of mankind and its representatives by a big part of the whole demographic.

I do wonder though, how much of this fiasco of throwing support towards the biggest mismanagement in history, given the will to fire the least incompetent people still in charge of the situation like Fauci, is just a kind of a psychological fallout from the utter failure of the world having come to an end just a few years back. So I think I have to give Goober some sympathetic degree of leeway.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 13, 2020, 05:46:07 am
Look whatever's going on in this thread it's still not as bad as the UK's "I'm sorry that you feel that way" statements wrt there not being enough PPE.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 13, 2020, 05:55:55 am
Trump's stupidity knows no bounds. Firing Fauci would be political suicide... right?

Trump has kicked the chair away so many times now that I honestly don't know what he could do to persuade his faithful to turn on him.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Assassin714 on April 13, 2020, 06:09:20 am
Trump's stupidity knows no bounds. Firing Fauci would be political suicide... right?

Trump has kicked the chair away so many times now that I honestly don't know what he could do to persuade his faithful to turn on him.

Change his stance to pro-choice.

Institute universal healthcare.

Argue for separation of church and state.

Pass stricter environmental regulations.

Tax the rich at a much higher rate.

If he did any of those, they'd drop him like a bad habit.

Of course he never would do any of those things.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 13, 2020, 08:50:14 am
Some more updates on testing in the US (https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-testing-us-states.html), which is still happening at a disastrously low rate in many places. The nation "best prepared for an epidemic" is uniquely incapable of actually tracking where the epidemic is in their country.

Personally I would like to highlight:
Quote
In the U.S., testing data isn't being collated by a government agency.

That's not a good look.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 13, 2020, 08:50:48 am
A bunch of churches in my area decided that they were going to do their regular Easter service today.  This was a permitted exception in Governor Bill Lee's stay-at-home order.  We'll see if those decisions lead to the infection rate climbing higher over the next week or two.

That stain on the human species Salvini tried to have it as an exception here too, considering there have been cases of contagion due to imbeciles that decided to have their prayer community reunions when the lockdown orders were already issued I'd say there are good probabilities of that happening.

I thought Sally wasn't part of the government anymore?

He's still one of the Italian politicians most present on social media together with Meloni, Conte called them both out on it naming names and everything because they are actively spreading bull**** that might damage the lockdown.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 13, 2020, 11:06:48 am
Meanwhile in the UK (which also was absolutely moronic when it came to preparations for the virus) they are running out of body bags (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52205655).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 13, 2020, 11:33:32 am
This is obviously no big deal. The corpses are hardly infectious, so what's the need for body bags? It's not like dead people are going to get anyone else sick. In fact, it's actually good that they are dead, since they cannot spread the virus any more. This will save lives in the long run. More fake news.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 13, 2020, 11:36:15 am
Infections seem to be peaking worldwide, thanks to the brave efforts of everyone who has died rather than spreading the disease. The biased Democrat media wants you to think dying is bad—WRONG! Keep it up!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 13, 2020, 11:37:55 am
A clear case of TDS (Trumpogenic Deathphobia in Socialists)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 13, 2020, 12:41:59 pm
Trump has retweeted (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1249470237726081030) a call to fire Fauci.

Trump's stupidity knows no bounds. Firing Fauci would be political suicide... right?

Turns out that openly correcting Trump on live television gets you enemies amongst the fascists. Who would have thought?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 13, 2020, 12:52:20 pm
Trump has retweeted (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1249470237726081030) a call to fire Fauci.

Trump's stupidity knows no bounds. Firing Fauci would be political suicide... right?

Turns out that openly correcting Trump on live television gets you enemies amongst the fascists. Who would have thought?

Posting this (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/13/trumps-latest-rage-fest-is-one-his-most-absurd-dangerous-yet/) and this (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/13/fauci-admits-delay-cost-lives-trumpers-should-too/) here because I thought they're both strangely relevant.

But yeah, contradict the fascists and the fascists get pissed for some odd reason. Yeah, Joshua, I don't get it either. /s
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on April 13, 2020, 02:45:43 pm
In other news:

An article (in webcomic form) about how a pandemic is modeled, and why estimates can vary so wildly:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/a-comic-strip-tour-of-the-wild-world-of-pandemic-modeling/
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Goober5000 on April 13, 2020, 08:21:09 pm
We have the death counts. The number of people who are dead. But all you can do is pick at media accounts; all your energy and your communications bandwidth is bent to one purpose. And it's not giving a **** about the dead. It's protecting a politician from criticism.

False.  You are expressly contradicting the second paragraph of my first post in this thread (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96228.msg1895961#msg1895961) - which even named you specifically.

Now was that a lie, or did you just overlook that part of the post?


And that is the sort of thing that as a Christian, people like Goober could be helping with. Convincing these people that God will listen to them just as well at home. That it isn't worth leaving your house and risking the health of the entire community because of a desire to do something you can do at home.

If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church.  Man does not live on bread alone.


In other news, the Trump campaign has helpfully provided a timeline (https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/timeline-the-trump-administrations-decisive-actions-to-combat-the-coronavirus/) of the administration's actions in response to the virus.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on April 13, 2020, 08:44:40 pm
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church.  Man does not live on bread alone.

Hol' up. Are you saying it's fine to willingly risk yourselves and all your friends by going to a large gathering where you're going to be close together, breathing and touching and (hopefully not, but probably) coughing on each other?

And why couldn't you do church from home? Basically my entire organization has switched to Zoom, and it's working and nobody's risking infection from it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on April 13, 2020, 08:55:12 pm
Goober are you seriously citing Trump's own campaign propaganda machine as an objective assessment of his administration's response?

Also I guess "where two or three are gathered in my name" should really be read as "where 500 or 1000 are jammed together  in a hideously irresponsible manner"?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 13, 2020, 09:27:54 pm
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church.  Man does not live on bread alone.

Imbeciles that insisted going to prayer groups and masses only spread the disease here in Italy and that's a fact that doesn't care for your quotes from the Gospel taken wildly out of context.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 13, 2020, 09:37:25 pm
We have the death counts. The number of people who are dead. But all you can do is pick at media accounts; all your energy and your communications bandwidth is bent to one purpose. And it's not giving a **** about the dead. It's protecting a politician from criticism.

False.  You are expressly contradicting the second paragraph of my first post in this thread (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96228.msg1895961#msg1895961) - which even named you specifically.

Quote
This is not to take away from the very real threat posed by the pandemic, and my sympathies go to Battuta's family and anyone else who may be affected by the virus or may have family or friends affected.

Now was that a lie, or did you just overlook that part of the post?

That depends on if you were/are sincere in that statement goober. Ask yourself if you are, and then you will know if Battuta is wrong or not.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 13, 2020, 09:39:07 pm
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church.  Man does not live on bread alone.

But you are going to the supermarket for the bread. The other stuff you already have at home.

Everybody has had to sacrifice doing some things that they wanted to do or alter the way they do it in order to avoid risking lives. Supermarkets are open because otherwise people wouldn't have food to eat. You need to find a way to give people food and other solutions are pretty impractical. There are ways that organised religions could still have their services without risking the lives of their followers. They could do those services online, they could instruct their followers to pray at a certain time of day, they could send out sermons via email. Yes it's not as good as going to church, but having to work online hasn't been as good, talking to our friends online instead of meeting them isn't as good. We all made sacrifices.

Even if you think prayer is essential, going to a building in large numbers to do it isn't. God is everywhere, right? There are other ways that could be done temporarily in order to be a good neighbour. Or you could be selfish and put your own desires above potentially saving the lives of other people. But is that really a Christian thing to do? I'm sure you'll turn up some phrase from the bible to justify your point of view, but you know deep down that this is just about what you want to do.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 13, 2020, 09:41:37 pm
Normal Christians who aren't bat**** crazy are meeting online. Just FYI.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 13, 2020, 09:50:17 pm
I was pretty sure that they were. Didn't mean to imply that they're all risking everyone's lives.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 13, 2020, 09:59:54 pm
We have the death counts. The number of people who are dead. But all you can do is pick at media accounts; all your energy and your communications bandwidth is bent to one purpose. And it's not giving a **** about the dead. It's protecting a politician from criticism.

False.  You are expressly contradicting the second paragraph of my first post in this thread (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96228.msg1895961#msg1895961) - which even named you specifically.

Now was that a lie, or did you just overlook that part of the post?

We know you don't care. We know because you open a post by insisting that you care, then go on to argue for mass gatherings and post a link to a Trump website. You make it clear that you're just smoothing the delivery of an argument. Some of your argument is explicitly about prioritizing your theological concerns over human life. If coronavirus is three times as dangerous, on a daily basis, as the Blitz, you are asking people to gather beneath the bombs. You are proselytizing for death.

Covering your ass with trite empathy isn't giving a ****. It's just a rhetorical fig leaf.

Expressing concern for individual people while you carry water for the system that put them in mortal danger isn't concern. It's appearance management. It's camouflage.

You're minimizing, what-abouting, and caviling. You are here to parrot propaganda and insist that everything is fine. You express concern and care only to segue into bizarre partisan warfare over timelines and statements when what people need now is truth and action.

You have not made the basic, good faith statement which nearly everyone else in this thread has managed. It would not be difficult, and I think you know it is true. It would not even be a partisan statement. It would not prevent you from arguing in favor of Trump or countering what you perceive as lies and inaccuracies. Yet for some reason it is difficult for you; for some reason it is intolerable to say this true thing.

That truth is that something went terribly wrong with the American response to this disease.

I remember, a long time ago, believing that political differences were the result of fundamentally different ways of processing the world; the expression of cognitive parallax, not simply a barometer of moral quality. Not a marker of good or evil. Not a canary about how someone would act in a crisis.

I have never been so sad to find that I was wrong. You put more effort into preparing yourself and others for your predicted Rapture than you have into expressing any concern over this disease.

I think you should go from this community. I think it's long overdue. You do not belong in this company.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 13, 2020, 10:10:02 pm
Imagine the kind of man who stands at the doors of a burning building and urges his family, his friends, his community inside.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 14, 2020, 12:03:21 am
This Pandemic has shown the darkest parts of American society in a way even I am surprised by. . .


When Trump and Corona are both over with, we will have to decide what kind of country the United States will be.




Also wash your hands.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 14, 2020, 04:40:52 am
Goober, you have to ask yourself why you're arguing about what Trump did or did not do, when it is abundantly and objectively clear what he did and didn't do, and how his chosen course of action was inadequate in first diagnosing the magnitude of the outbreak, communicating the risks, mitigating the consequences of the outbreak and ensuring that supplies are delivered to where they're needed.

In an earlier post, you quoted Trump bragging about how the JHI rated the US as having the best pandemic preparedness rating amongst the world's nations. That study, which can be seen here (https://www.ghsindex.org/) and which dates from October 2019 is of questionable utility. Its ratings is largely based on self-assessments and a catalog of questions that excludes factors of political culture; It rates the UK second after the US, and both of these countries can inarguably be listed amongst the countries with the worst responses in this crisis, largely due to a failure in the respective governments' senior leadership.
If you were truly interested in truth and accuracy, why did you single out that soundbite? Why did you not scrutinize the statements made? Why did you not do even a cursory reading of the study cited, or even the press releases that accompanied it? Here, I'll quote you something from it!
Quote
National health security is fundamentally weak around the world, and no country is fully prepared to handle an epidemic or pandemic, according to the first comprehensive assessment and benchmarking of health security and related capabilities across 195 countries.
The point is, the study (at least in my cursory and decidedly non-expert opinion) was measuring the wrong things. Not unimportant things, definitely not, but it had blind spots that, as it turned out, were pretty important.

It's a curious mixture, isn't it. On the one hand, the media is misleading and bad and must be scrutinized heavily for bias and inaccuracies, but on the other hand, the government is definitely trustworthy and should not be questioned. You citing as evidence talking points prepared by the Donald J Trump For God-EmperorPresident campaign while in the same breath decrying partisanship and bias is a level of hypocrisy I have seldom seen.
No wait, that's not true. I've seen it every single time a supposedly christian person excuses their liking of Trump despite Trump's decidedly non-christian worldview and morals.

Basically: If the only sources you can find that, in your opinion, are fair to Trump are Trump's PR people and shining examples of human decency like self-admitted rapist Mike Cernovich.... Why isn't that raising any questions for you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 14, 2020, 05:53:14 am
Also wash your hands.

My brother has germophobia so he was always very frantic about washing hands.

Now I know how he feels 0_o - You haven't washed your hands until you've washed your hands like lives depend on it. Which they do!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 14, 2020, 06:35:37 am
[earnest german engagement with goober]

Honestly Battuta's said it as well as could be said: Goober is a death cultist whose values are totally at odds with almost everyone on this board. The only reason he's still here is that a) he owns parts of the server infrastructure and b) like any true evangelist (both for his brand of protestantism and for Trump, the idol of Owning The Libs) he feels gratified by spreading the good word to the unbelievers, even if they are clearly having none of it. There is no point in talking to the man himself; the only point of engaging with him is to point out his lies and his deranged morality to each other.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 14, 2020, 06:40:01 am
The only useful thing to talk to Goober about is probably trying to get him to acknowledge that the US government's response to the pandemic failed terribly and thousands of people are dying needlessly as a result.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 14, 2020, 06:48:48 am


Belated quote fail-
Body bags are useful for containing the fluids all corpses purge during stages such as, voiding of bowels, purification, and many other lovely natural processes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 14, 2020, 08:05:26 am
I think you should go from this community. I think it's long overdue. You do not belong in this company.
The only reason he's still here is that a) he owns parts of the server infrastructure and b) like any true evangelist (both for his brand of protestantism and for Trump, the idol of Owning The Libs) he feels gratified by spreading the good word to the unbelievers, even if they are clearly having none of it.

Everyone knows that Goober has done a lot for this community. Let's keep FreeSpace and GenDisc separate.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 14, 2020, 08:11:03 am
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church.  Man does not live on bread alone.

What a dumb comparison. You can live without church, you cannot live without food or other basic necessities. Coronavirus is a very valid reason to restrict religious gatherings. And as far as I am concerned, that is a very good litmus test that separates normal religous people from bat**** crazy religious extremists.

EDIT: That said, you do belong into this community and do not let anyone convince you otherwise. Political and world view disagreements are totally orthogonal and unimportant compared to our shared love of FreeSpace. That is why we are ultimately here, and I think everyone ought to be welcome here. Maybe even them commies
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 08:46:36 am
If you thought corporate scabs were bad, just wait for the hot new thing: scabbing for a virus
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 08:53:08 am
Everyone knows that Goober has done a lot for this community. Let's keep FreeSpace and GenDisc separate.

My partner just went out to pick up a shipment of materials to make masks and gowns for nurses. To continue the Blitz analogy (since people are currently dying at a higher per capita rate than in the Blitz), my partner has gone out into a bombing raid to get medical supplies. The reason the bombs are falling is because of uniquely poor decisionmaking by those in power-Republicans, Democrats, local, federal, it doesn't matter.

Why should I ever want to share a community with someone who's rooting for the bombers?

EDIT: That said, you do belong into this community and do not let anyone convince you otherwise. Political and world view disagreements are totally orthogonal and unimportant compared to our shared love of FreeSpace. That is why we are ultimately here, and I think everyone ought to be welcome here. Maybe even them commies

My parents and loved ones are a lot more important to me than FreeSpace. Why would I ever want to share a community with someone who's calling for the infected to gather with the uninfected? Would you want to share your community with an arsonist's accomplice - the one who gathers hundreds of people in the building where the fire will be set?

Some things do matter more than video games.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 08:56:44 am
There's probably something to be said about an ethics of 'no one should feel unwelcome, even if they have called for people to die.' It's very, very nerd.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 14, 2020, 09:02:56 am
Political and world view disagreements are totally orthogonal and unimportant compared to our shared love of FreeSpace.

A decade ago, I might have agreed with you.

But now? When it is increasingly clear that this brand of politics we all lump up into the modern conservative package is a failure, its practitioners and preachers con men and criminals, its defenders little better, and it all results in literally thousands of people dying who didn't need to die, hundreds of thousands hospitalized who didn't need to be, millions job- and likely homeless who didn't need to be? When it can all be laid at the feet of the political trends that brought these neo-fascists to power? When this is but a taste of the upheavals and catastrophes to come when climate change turns the same corner that corona did and there's suddenly massive impacts all over the place that the people Goober and jr2 are so quick to defend will proclaim as "totally unexpected"?

No. Now, I'm going to say that I wouldn't want to be in a community that tolerates people like that. If you're so entrenched in your chosen ideology that, when asked for an opinion about a crisis like COVID, all you can muster is "I think people are being unfair to my chosen ideology and its figureheads", and you spend paragraphs upon paragraphs, quote chains stretching into eternity on desperately trying to come up with something, anything that would exonerate the leader or ideology you follow while spending only scattered words here and there on the actual suffering actual humans are going through... I don't know how you can come to think of yourself as moral then. Or, for that matter, christian.

Being apolitical, being neutral, is a luxury. It's a priviledge, and, more often than not, a sign of ignorance. We are not rich enough to be apolitical.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 09:06:19 am
In conclusion, I hope you have all given serious thought to the blessing and protection of Papa Nurgle, He Whose Effluents Ease the Pain of Rot.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 14, 2020, 09:07:39 am
if a forum relies on the notion of mutual respect, how do you deal with someone who has no respect for human life?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Aesaar on April 14, 2020, 09:45:51 am
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church.  Man does not live on bread alone.

You can worship God at home.  He can hear you.

But it won't make the libs as angry.  And that is, of course, the paramount aim, is it not?

Propagating a pandemic to own the libs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 14, 2020, 09:55:15 am
There's probably something to be said about an ethics of 'no one should feel unwelcome, even if they have called for people to die.' It's very, very nerd.

I might disagree in broad terms but when they're doing it unapologetically on the boards themselves I absolutely agree.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 14, 2020, 10:06:17 am
I'll throw my .02 in here. I think a lot of folks in this thread are having a very hard time distinguishing between malicious intent and dangerous (even willful) ignorance. Giving other folks the benefit of the doubt, I tend to believe Goober et al. fall more into the latter category than the former. At least in this thread, there isn't a single instance where Goober has "called for people to die" (admittedly, I haven't been around long enough to know Goober or his beliefs outside this thread). Is he defending practices, policies and beliefs that are almost certainly going to result in people dying? Sure. But that's not the same thing.

If we can't talk to folks on the "other side" and try to see where they're coming from, we're pretty well ****ed as a society already. I'm only active in a few forums, but I appreciate having people whom I fundamentally disagree with in them, because it forces me to examine what I believe and why. I don't know about you all, but I'm not so fragile that I can't stomach someone disagreeing with me, even in the face of a crisis like COVID.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 14, 2020, 10:13:40 am
Calling back to the blitz analogy, having had family live through it and die in it in generations past, the thing with the the blitz was that it was easy to see and follow the straightforward directions of the Wardens and Marshalls to seek safety.  People knew that by doing what they were told that it would be best for everyone and lives would not be put at any more risk than minimally possible.

Thing with the virus, is that some people are too stubborn, stupid, ignorant, and downright fantastical in their disbelief that they are immune in themselves, or unable to propogate this thing.

Martial law here please.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 10:21:37 am
At least in this thread, there isn't a single instance where Goober has "called for people to die" (admittedly, I haven't been around long enough to know Goober or his beliefs outside this thread). Is he defending practices, policies and beliefs that are almost certainly going to result in people dying? Sure. But that's not the same thing.

He hasn't called for anyone to die. He's just asked us to crowd into a burning building. It's not the same thing. :thonking:

Quote
If we can't talk to folks on the "other side" and try to see where they're coming from, we're pretty well ****ed as a society already. I'm only active in a few forums, but I appreciate having people whom I fundamentally disagree with in them, because it forces me to examine what I believe and why. I don't know about you all, but I'm not so fragile that I can't stomach someone disagreeing with me, even in the face of a crisis like COVID.

There are times where an issue has two opposing stances and it's valuable to see both sides. This is not one of them. Nor are many other critical issues of our times. I was just thinking about this earlier, actually—how people mistake the existence of two sides for the existence of a 'truth in the middle.' It's South Park logic, both-sides-ism. The fetishism of 'balance.' Create a reasonable position and a conspiracy theory and there's always someone who insists on Teaching the Controversy, because simply shutting one side down as nonsense is emotionally difficult and causes fights.

Some questions simply have a right answer.

Classy move calling folks whose lives are in danger and who don't want to see more deaths 'fragile.' Might want to rethink that one. When your local government has to make a decision between containing COVID and, well, not containing COVID, I hope your immune system isn't so fragile that it can't stomach someone disagreeing with it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Aesaar on April 14, 2020, 10:29:31 am
I'll throw my .02 in here. I think a lot of folks in this thread are having a very hard time distinguishing between malicious intent and dangerous (even willful) ignorance. Giving other folks the benefit of the doubt, I tend to believe Goober et al. fall more into the latter category than the former. At least in this thread, there isn't a single instance where Goober has "called for people to die" (admittedly, I haven't been around long enough to know Goober or his beliefs outside this thread). Is he defending practices, policies and beliefs that are almost certainly going to result in people dying? Sure. But that's not the same thing.

Dangerous ignorance becomes malicious when one refuses to accept they're ignorant out of petty spite.

Quote
If we can't talk to folks on the "other side" and try to see where they're coming from, we're pretty well ****ed as a society already. I'm only active in a few forums, but I appreciate having people whom I fundamentally disagree with in them, because it forces me to examine what I believe and why. I don't know about you all, but I'm not so fragile that I can't stomach someone disagreeing with me, even in the face of a crisis like COVID.

The fault with this is that you assume the other side can be reached at all.  Some issue do not have two valid sides that both deserve consideration.

Some people are simply wrong.  It isn't fragility to dismiss their beliefs as such.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 14, 2020, 10:31:56 am
To be honest I was tempted to move this to Political Discussions a while back. But then I started wondering why a thread about a virus that is affecting the entire planet should be a political issue. It really shouldn't need to be moved. The fact is that this isn't a political issue. Most of us are upset that the virus response is being handled badly. We don't care who did it. We just don't want it continued.

I'm not going to say that anyone should leave the community either. But I will say that if the only reason you are posting on an apolitical thread is political, you don't belong on this thread and you shouldn't post any further on it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 10:40:30 am
Big moral decisions always look clearcut in retrospect—civil rights, suffrage, and entering WW2 are three examples that spring to mind—but when you're actually living through them, there are usually more people bemoaning the incivility, the mean words and personal animus and disunity, than there are people clearly taking the retrospectively right side.

It's the same on nerd internet forums! People value decorum and proper behavior much more than, for example, 'not calling for mass public gatherings in a time of pandemic.' And they value smooth interpersonal relationships much more than stances on large abstract issues, because, well, they're abstract.

We've got somewhere north of 7000 dead now, although everyone agrees this is probably an underestimate. It's mostly killing old men (though old women aren't far behind). My parents are in the high risk age bracket but seem to be pulling through, probably due to their disgustingly regular cardio exercise. They're far from NYC, in a tiny hamlet in the mountains, population 400. I think we're turning the corner here in the big city, but this thing can go strange places. Be careful.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 14, 2020, 10:47:53 am
In other news, the Trump campaign has helpfully provided a timeline (https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/timeline-the-trump-administrations-decisive-actions-to-combat-the-coronavirus/) of the administration's actions in response to the virus.

this timeline accurately shows that trump took no measures to curb the spread of the disease throughout all of February
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 14, 2020, 10:55:05 am
It seems that most Americans (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/most-americans-like-how-their-governor-is-handling-the-coronavirus-outbreak/) approve of their governors' responses to the outbreak, and nearly half (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/coronavirus-polls/) approve of Trump's response.

As alarming as these polls are, I doubt that nearly half of Americans are death cultists with no respect for human life. There are more charitable interpretations.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 10:58:03 am
Just the ones calling for mass public gatherings and minimizing the botched the response so their chosen politicians won't look bad, friendo
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 11:07:22 am
Again this fixation on polls, statements, approval, disapproval, who thinks what about who: trying to construct a narrative out of what's happened. But all that is ultimately unimportant, because the inalterable Lacanian truth is the death count. It is large. It is bigger than it needed to be.

Something went wrong. I think it is fine to argue about what that is, and to disagree on who's to blame. I don't personally think Trump did a good job, but we have no hard indisputable evidence another President would have done better given the same circumstances. And the President is only one part of a large mechanism.

What I don't think is fine is denying or minimizing that something went wrong, and that thousands of people died as a result. You have to begin there to have any decency.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 14, 2020, 11:12:27 am
There are times where an issue has two opposing stances and it's valuable to see both sides. This is not one of them. Nor are many other critical issues of our times. I was just thinking about this earlier, actually—how people mistake the existence of two sides for the existence of a 'truth in the middle.' It's South Park logic, both-sides-ism. The fetishism of 'balance.' Create a reasonable position and a conspiracy theory and there's always someone who insists on Teaching the Controversy, because simply shutting one side down as nonsense is emotionally difficult and causes fights.

Some questions simply have a right answer.

Classy move calling folks whose lives are in danger and who don't want to see more deaths 'fragile.' Might want to rethink that one. When your local government has to make a decision between containing COVID and, well, not containing COVID, I hope your immune system isn't so fragile that it can't stomach someone disagreeing with it.

You're mistaking my intent here, so maybe I wasn't clear. It isn't to defend Goober's beliefs, nor is it to say "the truth is in the middle," because in this case it absolutely is not. You're correct, there are often such things as objective truths and right answers. My argument (belief, whatever) is simply that we're better off not just dismissing people with whom we disagree as "unreachable" and asking them to leave a community. In my mind, that's being fragile because it's far easier to just say "no, go away you're wrong" than to keep talking to them. I know it's been tried in this thread with limited success...that's good. Keep trying, is my point. Maybe this short aside will help illustrate what I'm trying to say: One of the biggest struggles in my field is how to shift attitudes and policies regarding climate change, particularly in conservative areas. And what we've found (studies have been done!) is that the answer isn't just to say "go away you're wrong," but rather to try and find areas where meaningful dialogue can take place (even though they are wrong). Common ground.

I have all the empathy in the world for those living in the hardest hit areas, and all the admiration in the world for those who are risking their lives to help (including, apparently, your partner, Battuta). You're in the worst place in the US for this, and that has got to be terrifying. I'm scared too...because it's ****ing scary.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 11:21:56 am
I appreciate your elucidation, genuinely.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 14, 2020, 11:25:30 am
 :) Stay safe, friend.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 14, 2020, 12:16:20 pm
this timeline accurately shows that trump took no measures to curb the spread of the disease throughout all of February

What surprises me the most about that list is:
1) The large amount of whitenoise. Like surely even the die-hardiest of Trump Supporter doesn't really care about if the President talked to Saudi Arabia about oil prices. It's almost as if it's using massive amounts of quantity to hide the amount of quality! Like...

Quote from: The Trump Campaign
April 6: President Trump had a “very friendly” phone call with former Vice President Joe Biden to discuss the coronavirus.

Quote from: The Rump Campaign
April 4: President Trump tweeted encouragement to American children unable to start their Little League baseball season on time due to coronavirus.

2) 
Quote from: Thrump Campaign
April 9: CMS temporarily suspended a number of regulations so that hospitals, clinics, and other health care providers can book the number of staff to confront the coronavirus

Why didn't they do this in February?

Quote from: theperfectdrugsk
My argument (belief, whatever) is simply that we're better off not just dismissing people with whom we disagree as "unreachable" and asking them to leave a community. In my mind, that's being fragile because it's far easier to just say "no, go away you're wrong" than to keep talking to them.

People are fragile right now. You're implying fragility is a negative where it isn't. If Battuta was completely unaffected by the current events, by seeing people die around him, something would be terribly wrong with him. But he is. We all are.

It's perfectly fair (in my mind) to come up and say "There's way too much **** going on for me to tolerate you adding to it". The alternative is to leave, to be driven out yourself by this display of inhumanity and simply never confront it. Off course, this would also be considered fragile and a "victory" by the people who possess said inhumanity.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 14, 2020, 12:24:34 pm
Again this fixation on polls, statements, approval, disapproval, who thinks what about who: trying to construct a narrative out of what's happened. But all that is ultimately unimportant, because the inalterable Lacanian truth is the death count. It is large. It is bigger than it needed to be.

Something went wrong. I think it is fine to argue about what that is, and to disagree on who's to blame. I don't personally think Trump did a good job, but we have no hard indisputable evidence another President would have done better given the same circumstances. And the President is only one part of a large mechanism.

What I don't think is fine is denying or minimizing that something went wrong, and that thousands of people died as a result. You have to begin there to have any decency.

It's kind of hard to argue with the death count; it is what it is. It's also clear that something went wrong, because thousands of people died. The points of contention are where things went wrong, and what could have been done (and could be done) better.

In the case of, say, an earthquake, the main thing that went wrong was nature. The coronavirus should be viewed differently, because there was time to prepare. But I think that Americans who approve of the government's response are treating the coronavirus like an earthquake: saying that nature (or China) is mainly to blame, that America couldn't have done much better, and that deaths on this scale were more or less inevitable once the virus emerged. For example, I've heard people claim that earlier shutdowns would have been impossible or economically disastrous.

Once everybody agrees that something went wrong, it's crucially important to diagnose what went wrong. That's when the finger-pointing starts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 12:36:47 pm
The point of contention is still, in fact, whether anything went wrong. That's been my point all along. It doesn't matter who's in power or who's ultimately to blame; first you have to acknowledge that this was not inevitable and that massive mistakes were made. If you can't acknowledge that, you are just blowing smoke. You care more about image than actuality.

We are 'blessed' with examples from all around the world of how this outbreak might have been handled better or worse. It's very, very easy to determine that we do not fall into the 'better' category.

What Americans think is true has no bearing on what is actually true. There are many totally wrong beliefs which are nonetheless widely held, because mass publics are dumb.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 14, 2020, 02:04:46 pm
Quote
It's kind of hard to argue with the death count; it is what it is.

Actually, it could be much higher. Given the absurdly low rate of testing in the US during the early parts of the outbreak (a situation that still persists in many parts of the country), people may have died of Corona without anyone knowing they had it (esp. in January and February). The New York Times has an article on how New York City has far more deaths then usual (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/10/upshot/coronavirus-deaths-new-york-city.html). But not just more then usual, also far more then what could be expected if you counted Covid deaths alone. A part of this is a overwhelmed medical system, a part of it is simply that people died without knowing they had Covid-19.

Quote
In the case of, say, an earthquake, the main thing that went wrong was nature.

Yes and no. Because even though deaths in a heavy earthquake are inevitable, earthquake zones are known. You can build buildings to withstand earthquakes. It won't prevent all deaths, but it'll help. And after the earthquake happens, disaster relief is still important. If you're not able to get the infrastructure of getting people out from under buildings operational, if your government is for whatever reason unable to get help where it needs to be, more people are going to die.

When people talk about Hurricane Katrina or Maria today, they don't talk about how "nature" went wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on April 14, 2020, 02:54:36 pm
Updates from Italy:
Lockdown should have ended today, but as expected it has been prolonged until 3rd May.

Quite surprisingly, very few people violated the lockdown during Easter holidays. Medias showed pictures of a huge traffic jam on Rome's freeway, but the Police stated they were mostly healthcare workers returning from hospitals stopped at a roadblock.

Still, Lombardy region has no idea on what to do. The field hospital built in Milan's fairground turned out to be mostly unusable. And while all other regions are starting to perform sierological analysis to discover people who caught asymptomatically the virus (one town reported that actual discovered cases were 5x than the ones officially reported, most of them with mild symptoms if any at all), Lombardy still has no clues on what to to.
Some towns are starting to organize by themselves... a nearby town is performing such tests at 50 € per person, but according to the lockdown decree I am not allowed to leave my town if not for job related reasons, urgent health issues and buying groceries if there are no supermarkets in my town.

A data analysis company cross-referenced several data (death reports, general pratictioners reports etc.) and discovered that the number of cases is much higher than officially reported, almost 1'000'000 cases in Lombardy alone as of 9th April (https://www.infodata.ilsole24ore.com/2020/04/10/coronavirus-lombardia-972mila-contagiati-15mila-morti-lanalisi-intwig/?refresh_ce=1) (sorry, Italian only).
They estimated 33% contagion rate in the town where I live, with peaks as high as 80% in the towns where the first cases were reported (one of which is 20 km from where I live).

In the first days of lockdown I actually felt for 2 days as if my lungs were burning, but I had no other symptom (no coughing, no fever, no loss of taste or smell). Many colleagues reported having similar issues.
It would be interesting to know if we actually got infected asymptomatically.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 14, 2020, 03:01:42 pm
I do hope your lungs are okay. I really do appreciate these Italian updates too.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on April 14, 2020, 04:02:15 pm
Thank you!
At first I didn't even think it could be the virus, I was just blaming that to being overly stressed by the outbreak. I did not even call the regional COVID hotline to ask for a swab (which would most probably have been denied anyway, as even healthcare workers who show mild symptoms are not being tested and are just told to self-quarantine). The first suspects came after chatting with some colleagues who reported similar symptoms at the same time (beginning of March).
Anyway, without sierological analysis I will not know whether it was COVID or not.

I forgot to tell that now facemasks are mandatory in Lombardy whenever you are not at home.
Too bad we do not have enough masks.
The region ordered 3'000'000 masks to be distributed to citizens, but Milan has 1'500'000 inhabitants alone, the whole region has 10'000'000.
Luckily an anonymous donor gave many masks to my local pharmacy, while my town was able to donate 2 masks per every family, and I still have some dust masks I usually use when airbrush painting scale models.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 14, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
Hey remember when I said that the New York death toll was likely higher? (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html)

It's higher.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: General Battuta on April 14, 2020, 05:03:36 pm
CLEARLY the fakest of news
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on April 14, 2020, 05:20:31 pm
While the facemasks in Poland are supposed to be mandatory since tomorrow, many people (including me and my family) are wearing them outside for quite a bit now. In our case, in order to offset the government stockpiling millions of masks for the upcoming elections, every one of us has got a single personal mask that we sanitise with alcohol after every day of use. Plus like two or three fresh ones kept in case of an emergency (or if the ones we have start breaking up after about a month of use).

The Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (https://covid19.healthdata.org/poland) estimates that the peak of infections and casualties will take place in about two weeks, with a total of beyond 2500 people dead. That is, if nobody does anything idiotic.


In other news, Sweden seems to be taking a... very relaxed approach. Which seems to have resulted in a massive 9% mortality rate (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/) among confirmed cases.

Swedes. (https://covid19.healthdata.org/sweden)
What are you doing? (https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/12/is-sweden-s-covid-19-strategy-working)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 14, 2020, 05:23:11 pm
sweden and the netherlands are the few european countries doing worse than the UK (and the dutch are still being enormous assholes about providing aid to other EU nations or their own dependent colonies without a hint of irony)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on April 14, 2020, 06:01:35 pm
Hey remember when I said that the New York death toll was likely higher? (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html)

It's higher.

In general the confirmations only come a while after the deaths themselves.

You can see this lag in this gif: https://i.redd.it/lsqyafo5qmr41.gif
(and since the gif was made in 2020 week 13, here's a still for what week 14 is looking like: https://i.redd.it/2c6d9sk6mas41.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 14, 2020, 07:20:29 pm
jesus ****ing christ (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/coronavirus-trump-halts-funding-to-world-health-organization)

trying to defund the world health organisation IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PANDEMIC is just beyond any defence
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 14, 2020, 07:42:08 pm
How can anyone defend this kind of behaviour? Even if you don't think Trump made mistakes, surely this isn't the time for this? If he did it after the pandemic was dealt with it would still be petty and stupid but during the pandemic? How can anyone believe that this was the right thing to do?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Aesaar on April 14, 2020, 08:52:53 pm
Trump is trying as hard as he can to shift blame away from himself.  As usual.  Avoiding responsibility for USA's ****ty response is his absolute #1 priority, and helping him do that is his cult's priority.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 15, 2020, 01:04:00 am
What if he IS the virus  :nervous:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 15, 2020, 02:19:34 am
Meanwhile, the delivery of checks for the promised 1200 USD for every US citizens is delayed.... because Trump or one of his toadies decided that it was essential that his name be written on those checks.

It's not a huge delay as these things go, a couple days at most, but ... seriously? Does Trump really need validation and recognition that much? (The question is rhetorical, the answer obviously yes; one needs only witness his and by extension, his supporter's actions to see that)
And why is he trying to take credit for a congress initiative?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 15, 2020, 04:14:51 am
(https://nitter.net/pic/https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FEGcbDTjU8AUlDfS.jpg%3Fname%3Dorig)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 15, 2020, 04:30:01 am
Meanwhile, the delivery of checks for the promised 1200 USD for every US citizens is delayed.... because Trump or one of his toadies decided that it was essential that his name be written on those checks.

Unfortunately that is too high a value cheque to send it back with "Eat **** Bob" written on it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 15, 2020, 04:32:30 am
I'm half expecting them to be those giant stupid sweepstakes checks, honestly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on April 15, 2020, 07:07:27 am
<snip> Does Trump really need validation and recognition that much?</snip>

I know you said the question is rhetorical, but I don't think this is about validation. It's electoral campaigning. Imagine how many less-informed and/or undecided voters might decide to go vote for Trump when they see his name on a check they got "for free"? It's a bit psychological even, because it's directly associating his name with getting a check.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 15, 2020, 07:49:27 am
That's actually pretty cunning. I wouldn't be surprised if it had that effect, sadly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 15, 2020, 08:46:58 am
A few weeks ago everyone in the states got little postcards that said "President Trump's coronavirus guidelines for America". I never saw anything in the news about it, but I thought... huh. Shouldn't this be the CDC's guidelines? Trump isn't a doctor. I'm sure he forced his name onto the postcard for the same reason. My wife threw it out or I'd take a picture and post it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on April 15, 2020, 08:51:33 am
Eh, this is exactly the same what our currently governing party did as one of their main campaign points. To bribe the people with their own money and make them think these funds magically appeared due to the genius of the party leaders.

Which worked flawlessly.

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/028/497/palp.jpg)



Of other things related to the US "helping" people not go bankrupt during these hard times, Louis Rossmann points out some major problems in the Paycheck Protection Program (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlnpDBgptI4). Bureaucracy strikes again!
(This video is in a neutral, non-partisan spirit, pointing out actual problems within the bill. It's mostly informative and I think that knowledge could help some people to take a lesser financial hit and minimise the load on administrative systems - disclaimer for moderators!)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on April 15, 2020, 10:13:07 am
Eh, this is exactly the same what our currently governing party did as one of their main campaign points. To bribe the people with their own money and make them think these funds magically appeared due to the genius of the party leaders.

Which worked flawlessly.
<snip>

I think it's a good plan to have the government pay people in this period of crisis (yeah, I know it's money they have thanks to taxes, but it's still a redistribution, as each person pays different amounts of taxes, and companies pay taxes as well). The problem here is associating it with Trump's name. It was not his idea, nor completely his decision. 
Here in Brazil a similar thing happened, where the President criticized the Emergency Citizen Fund bill, his supporters in Congress voted against it.   
But when it passed, the President and his supporters were acting like we should thank them, even though the bill was introduced by the opposition and passed with support from the center (we have 30~ish parties broadly grouped into government, center and opposition)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 15, 2020, 10:13:37 am
A few weeks ago everyone in the states got little postcards that said "President Trump's coronavirus guidelines for America". I never saw anything in the news about it, but I thought... huh. Shouldn't this be the CDC's guidelines? Trump isn't a doctor. I'm sure he forced his name onto the postcard for the same reason. My wife threw it out or I'd take a picture and post it.
Huh. We never got one of those. But you're probably right about why his name is on it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 15, 2020, 02:00:15 pm
Unfortunately that is too high a value cheque to send it back with "Eat **** Bob" written on it.

That's My favorite musical!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Stealth on April 16, 2020, 09:55:48 am
Don't check in too often, and I never get involved in politics, but I've made a point of watching the news (both 'sides' of it) every evening while I try to exercise (so I don't leave this quarantine weighing 20 lbs more than when it started :) )
My thoughts (ramblings) on this entire situation:

- It (unfortunately) doesn't surprise me that Italy was hit as hard as it did.  Their entire culture is based around smoking, drinking, and associating in small cafes, older ones with younger ones.  That and the innate desire to buck the system, not listen to authorities, etc.  Horrible, as it's one of my absolute favorite countries, and a place I had (and still might) consider retiring someday.
- It is absolutely shocking how partisan this entire issue was from the beginning.  Left bashing the right, right bashing the left.  Both have good points at times, but this is the one time I (and i would think America as a whole) would want to see the politics put aside.  Who cares about the upcoming election.  Maybe that's just me.
- I think this is going to change, long-term if not permanently, every aspect of society, how we do business, how we interface and interact with others. 
- I also don't think it's possible (or feasible) to shut down a country for months.  I've heard some say "end of summer" - that just isn't possible.  After two weeks we saw what happened to the economy.  I have two aging parents I worry about too, so this isn't coming from a place of uncaring, but life doesn't work like that.  There's a point where the cost of the cure is more than the cost of the disease itself.  Poverty also kills.  I know we haven't seen statistics (and may never), but I would bet that during this quarantine, and rising exponentially during it, is suicides, self-harm, abuse, and other psychological impacts.  Cutting off someone from association with others for weeks and months at a time is not good.  And not everyone has access to high-speed internet, zoom, etc.
- $2 trillion comes from somewhere.  I don't think too many people have put much thought into just where it comes from.  It's not a savings account the government has that they just made a withdrawl from.  The effects of this stimulus program alone are going to have far-reaching ramifications.  Not necessarily a bad thing, and i'm not disagreeing with the approach, but yeah.

Cliffnotes: I'm following direction, but certainly ready for this to be over :)
Hope everyone is staying safe and well
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 16, 2020, 10:26:54 am
Quote
- It is absolutely shocking how partisan this entire issue was from the beginning.  Left bashing the right, right bashing the left.  Both have good points at times, but this is the one time I (and i would think America as a whole) would want to see the politics put aside.  Who cares about the upcoming election.  Maybe that's just me.

I think it's noteworthy that this is not really about "the left bashing the right" and the "right bashing the left", it's that people are bashing the US federal government for not doing what other countries are doing. If you look at whose party is governing the states that have issued "stay-at-home" orders, you'll find that this is hardly a partisan issue. As an outsider, the unique amount of partisanry wrt the Trump administration doesn't shock me at all, it's a natural result of how out-of-place the Trump administration is acting compared to the rest of the world*. There's a massive difference in "not wanting to die from a virus" and "putting your name on congress's grants". Pointing out that the US response has been lacking compared to the rest of the world isn't partisan.

* The one exception here is Brazil, which political situation incidentally could also be described as "shockingly partisan"
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on April 16, 2020, 12:38:15 pm
<snip>

* The one exception here is Brazil, which political situation incidentally could also be described as "shockingly partisan"

Even here it's similar to what you described with the Governors in the US, actually. The governors of most Brazilian states are trying to follow the WHO's recommendations in general. Even the governors of Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, who are decidedly right-wing and who both campaigned as allies of Bolsonaro have positioned themselves 100% against him on this.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 16, 2020, 02:22:31 pm
There's a point where the cost of the cure is more than the cost of the disease itself.

This isn't actually true.  The choices currently are:
1.  Measures that are designed to prevent healthcare system collapse, but an economic collapse, or
2.  Healthcare collapse AND economic collapse.

There is no magic third option where we mitigate economic damage.  The economic damage comes with us either way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 16, 2020, 02:52:43 pm
There's a point where the cost of the cure is more than the cost of the disease itself.

This isn't actually true.  The choices currently are:
1.  Measures that are designed to prevent healthcare system collapse, but an economic collapse, or
2.  Healthcare collapse AND economic collapse.

There is no magic third option where we mitigate economic damage.  The economic damage comes with us either way.

This. 1,000 times this. I find those Republican politicians saying that it's better to let older Covid victims die rather than allow social distancing to run the economy into the ground to be utterly sociopathic and stupid. I find them sociopathic because, duh, they want a bunch of people to die and I find them stupid because if tens of thousands of people die, then the economy is going to crater anyway just because so many people who had been contributing to the economy can't contribute anymore because they're frickin' dead. Just as MP-Ryan said, the economic damage from the coronavirus is locked in, no matter what we do. All that can be done now is to mitigate the damage as best we can. Republicans can either help Democrats do just that, or get out of the way. If they don't get out of the way, then they'll have to face angry voters in November.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 16, 2020, 02:59:49 pm
As 35 economists (https://economicstrategygroup.org/resource/economic-strategy-group-statement-covid19/) said last month, "saving lives and saving the economy are not in conflict right now".
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 16, 2020, 03:01:50 pm
Even here it's similar to what you described with the Governors in the US, actually. The governors of most Brazilian states are trying to follow the WHO's recommendations in general. Even the governors of Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, who are decidedly right-wing and who both campaigned as allies of Bolsonaro have positioned themselves 100% against him on this.

Yeah I heard as much, and I appreciate the confirmation!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on April 16, 2020, 03:02:04 pm
Whelp. The Brazilian Health Minister has been fired.

The President was angry that he was stealing his limelight, basically. Everyone was looking to the minister for what to do rather than the President, so that didn't sit right with the Dumbass-in-Chief. Besides, Bolsonaro's approval had long been in the mid to low 30%s, now it's in the low 20%s. While the minister's had risen to above 70%.   

If the state govts manage to handle the **** to come, fine, but the tiny amount of federal support from the Health Ministry was still better than nothing. The new Health Minister will certainly be a handpicked to be an ass-kisser for Bolsonaro.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 16, 2020, 03:20:10 pm
Whelp. The Brazilian Health Minister has been fired.

Surprising no one :(

Quote
tens of thousands of people die, then the economy is going to crater anyway just because so many people who had been contributing to the economy can't contribute anymore because they're frickin' dead

I mean, tens of thousands of people are dying in the US right now. And it's not just the dead who can't work towards 'the economy', it's the people who have to care for them, the people caring for those who are sick, the people who are sick and as such can't go to work without endangering others or well, are just too sick to go to work to begin with. If you can kill the virus after two months of not running your economy you're going to have a better functioning country in a years time then if you're fighting the virus throughout and essential services are suffering.

Plus, you know, losing your job isn't a disaster in the same way that permanent lung damage is. All these problems with unemployment can be solved, just not in ways that appeal to Republican politicians.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on April 16, 2020, 03:32:02 pm
Whelp. The Brazilian Health Minister has been fired.

The President was angry that he was stealing his limelight, basically. Everyone was looking to the minister for what to do rather than the President, so that didn't sit right with the Dumbass-in-Chief. Besides, Bolsonaro's approval had long been in the mid to low 30%s, now it's in the low 20%s. While the minister's had risen to above 70%.   

If the state govts manage to handle the **** to come, fine, but the tiny amount of federal support from the Health Ministry was still better than nothing. The new Health Minister will certainly be a handpicked to be an ass-kisser for Bolsonaro.

Christ, he really is Trump South.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 16, 2020, 04:24:09 pm
Trump's Bolsenaro North tbh. Bolsenaro always seems to take it a step further.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 16, 2020, 05:31:06 pm
Trump's Bolsenaro North tbh. Bolsenaro always seems to take it a step further.

Don't tempt fate like that. Now I'm worried that Trump will effectively one-up Bolsenaro by firing Dr. Fauci. FFS, Trump was twitter-threatening to do just that a few days ago.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on April 16, 2020, 05:33:39 pm
The main difference between them both in the pandemic is that while Trump was doing nothing to help, Bolsonaro was actively attempting to hinder the ones who were doing something.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 16, 2020, 05:53:03 pm
The main difference between them both in the pandemic is that while Trump was doing nothing to help, Bolsonaro was actively attempting to hinder the ones who were doing something.

With Trump cutting funding for the World Health Organization (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/trump-cuts-world-health-organization-funding-in-a-pandemic.html), I'd beg to differ about Trump not actively hindering people trying to alleviate the pandemic.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Stealth on April 16, 2020, 07:55:33 pm
Going to respond to each of the replies.  Please know that I am not saying any of this to be argumentative - in fact we are all on the same page, I assure you, but I have to play devil's advocate here:


This. 1,000 times this. I find those Republican politicians saying that it's better to let older Covid victims die rather than allow social distancing to run the economy into the ground to be utterly sociopathic and stupid. I find them sociopathic because, duh, they want a bunch of people to die and I find them stupid because if tens of thousands of people die, then the economy is going to crater anyway just because so many people who had been contributing to the economy can't contribute anymore because they're frickin' dead. Just as MP-Ryan said, the economic damage from the coronavirus is locked in, no matter what we do. All that can be done now is to mitigate the damage as best we can. Republicans can either help Democrats do just that, or get out of the way. If they don't get out of the way, then they'll have to face angry voters in November.
I don't know that I've heard anyone suggest one of those two extremes.  I think the Texas governor several weeks ago mentioned there would be a point where older individuals or those more at risk (underlying health conditions, etc) would, at some point, be responsible for their own safety, in that they'd need to be the ones staying home, and avoiding exposure.

But there's something else I want to mention here.  Whether we like it or not, there is a point where we do put a price on life.  Let me illustrate:

If I were to tell you that unless every non-essential American (of which there are tens and tens of millions) stays home from work, 100,000 people would likely die each day - it would be a complete no-brainer.  Obviously everyone would stay home.

What if the number of people that would die each day were 50,000?  Probably everyone would still stay home.

But there's a point where the cost of the cure is more expensive... if I said that unless every one of the tens of millions of Americans stays home, 10 people would die each day?  Or 5?  Would you still do it?  Of course not.  Human life has a price - sorry to say - but that's just the reality.  And while many of us are fortunate to not have to worry about being able to work from home, there is a large percentage of the workforce that "stay home" means "i don't get to feed my family".  Remember they aren't going to get stimulus checks every month indefinitely.  $1200 only goes so far when your income is zero.

Also one more thing you mentioned - "if tens of thousands of people die, then the economy is going to crater anyway just because so many people who had been contributing to the economy can't contribute anymore because they're frickin' dead".
While that may make sense on paper, statistically, the majority of those that are dying (by FAR) are actually not contributing to the economy at all.   They're on social security and medicare.  They're our older fathers, mothers, those with serious underlying health conditions, etc.   Most have actually been a drain on the economy.  Again - I take no joy in saying that, but playing devil's advocate, we aren't losing a high percentage of younger, healthy, working Americans, that are contributing to the economy.  So while I will argue the ethics side of it in your favor any day, the pure economic side, which you alluded to, is not valid.


This isn't actually true.  The choices currently are:
1.  Measures that are designed to prevent healthcare system collapse, but an economic collapse, or
2.  Healthcare collapse AND economic collapse.

There is no magic third option where we mitigate economic damage.  The economic damage comes with us either way.
True, but I'm sure you'll agree that "economic damage" is not binary.  There are certainly differing levels.

Example:  Shutting down the economy for a week vs. shutting down the economy for 6 months.  Both "economic damage", but exponentially different.


Plus, you know, losing your job isn't a disaster in the same way that permanent lung damage is. All these problems with unemployment can be solved, just not in ways that appeal to Republican politicians.
Spoken like someone that is not struggling to put food on the table.  "All these problems with unemployment can be solved" is (if I may, respectfully) a very, very nonchalant way of looking at a situation where countless millions (keywords) of people are reaching a point (if they haven't already reached it) where they are unable to pay their rent, buy medicine, put food on the table, etc.  Often they have children.  It's very important to step back and look at a situation like this from every vantage point.  Not all are as fortunate as we may be.  I've had some of the guys I know that work blue-collar warehouse jobs already call asking if I have any food in my freezer that they can have, promising me they'll pay me back some day.  It's absolutely devastating.  Don't for a second dismiss "these problems with unemployment".  99.9% of married men with young children who have to watch their family do without would take the risk of permanent lung damage in a heartbeat to put food on the table.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Stealth on April 16, 2020, 08:01:14 pm
I think it's noteworthy that this is not really about "the left bashing the right" and the "right bashing the left", it's that people are bashing the US federal government for not doing what other countries are doing. If you look at whose party is governing the states that have issued "stay-at-home" orders, you'll find that this is hardly a partisan issue. As an outsider, the unique amount of partisanry wrt the Trump administration doesn't shock me at all, it's a natural result of how out-of-place the Trump administration is acting compared to the rest of the world*. There's a massive difference in "not wanting to die from a virus" and "putting your name on congress's grants". Pointing out that the US response has been lacking compared to the rest of the world isn't partisan.

I agree with you that it shouldn't be a partisan issue, but it appears to be.
Each evening I'll watch the white house briefing, and then a few minutes of each 'side' argue (Fox/CNN).  Being completely objective, both have valid points.  But there's a level of petty that i don't think i've ever seen reached before.  And some of (most of?) those white house press briefings are absolutely painful to watch.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Goober5000 on April 16, 2020, 08:25:36 pm
Hol' up. Are you saying it's fine to willingly risk yourselves and all your friends by going to a large gathering where you're going to be close together, breathing and touching and (hopefully not, but probably) coughing on each other?

Have you forgotten social distancing protocols?  It's perfectly possible to wear masks and remain six feet apart from one another while in church.

Quote
And why couldn't you do church from home? Basically my entire organization has switched to Zoom, and it's working and nobody's risking infection from it.

That's also an option.


Goober are you seriously citing Trump's own campaign propaganda machine as an objective assessment of his administration's response?

Have you actually looked at the timeline?  It's literally a list of dates and events.  Which of the events are you saying did not happen?


I remember, a long time ago, believing that political differences were the result of fundamentally different ways of processing the world

Well, your post certainly seems to be processing what I said in a fundamentally different way.


Basically: If the only sources you can find that, in your opinion, are fair to Trump are Trump's PR people and shining examples of human decency like self-admitted rapist Mike Cernovich.... Why isn't that raising any questions for you?

For goodness's sake, this is the genetic fallacy.  Why, when I post an article containing mathematical calculations, do you completely ignore the calculations and talk about the author?  Math is math no matter who does it.


Hey remember when I said that the New York death toll was likely higher? (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html)

It's higher.

This isn't scientific at all.  "The city has added more than 3,700 additional people who were presumed to have died of the coronavirus but had never tested positive."  They are literally just making up numbers at this point.


How can anyone defend this kind of behaviour? Even if you don't think Trump made mistakes, surely this isn't the time for this? If he did it after the pandemic was dealt with it would still be petty and stupid but during the pandemic? How can anyone believe that this was the right thing to do?

The first rule of a crisis is "avoid making things worse".  Given that the W.H.O. has been shown to be not only ineffective but also criminally negligent, it should be of paramount importance to prevent them from causing further damage.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 16, 2020, 09:43:29 pm
The first rule of a crisis is "avoid making things worse".  Given that the W.H.O. has been shown to be not only ineffective but also criminally negligent, it should be of paramount importance to prevent them from causing further damage.

GIVE ONE example of how the World Health Organization has been "criminally negligent" ONE.

Also enplane why the USA is getting hit hardest by the virus if the W.H.O.'s "ineffectiveness" is to blame.


EDIT: Oh and:


Math is math no matter who does it.

They are literally just making up numbers at this point.


And without a tinge of Irony.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 16, 2020, 11:41:47 pm
Meh. Just like the world ending thread... Goober is literally spewing conspiracy theories at this point. Leave him be. He was wrong then and he's wrong now. His perception of the truth doesn't change the facts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 17, 2020, 01:00:36 am
Basically: If the only sources you can find that, in your opinion, are fair to Trump are Trump's PR people and shining examples of human decency like self-admitted rapist Mike Cernovich.... Why isn't that raising any questions for you?

For goodness's sake, this is the genetic fallacy.  Why, when I post an article containing mathematical calculations, do you completely ignore the calculations and talk about the author?  Math is math no matter who does it.

I didn't ignore them. I looked up the claims Cernovich made and found several more reputable sources that agreed with him.
You misunderstood the question, basically: If, as you say, it's all just simple math, why is the first source you quote the blog of someone who can be charitably described as a grifter? Why is it a blog in the first place? There's the message and the medium, and it is sometimes useful to examine both in isolation; the basic fact that, in your search to find "truth", you ended up at a Trump PR campaign post and the writings of someone known to be a habitual peddler of conspiracy theories is raising some interesting questions for me. As I said in the post you snipped that quote from:
You citing as evidence talking points prepared by the Donald J Trump For God-EmperorPresident campaign while in the same breath decrying partisanship and bias is a level of hypocrisy I have seldom seen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 17, 2020, 02:25:40 am
Spoken like someone that is not struggling to put food on the table.  "All these problems with unemployment can be solved" is (if I may, respectfully) a very, very nonchalant way of looking at a situation where countless millions (keywords) of people are reaching a point (if they haven't already reached it) where they are unable to pay their rent, buy medicine, put food on the table, etc.  Often they have children.  It's very important to step back and look at a situation like this from every vantage point.  Not all are as fortunate as we may be.  I've had some of the guys I know that work blue-collar warehouse jobs already call asking if I have any food in my freezer that they can have, promising me they'll pay me back some day.  It's absolutely devastating.  Don't for a second dismiss "these problems with unemployment".  99.9% of married men with young children who have to watch their family do without would take the risk of permanent lung damage in a heartbeat to put food on the table.

I live on disability benefits.

It's called social security. Unemployment benefits, minimum wage guarantees, wage guarantees in general, the government stepping in to protect companies so that they can continue to pay their employees. All these are measures taken by countries outside from the US. It's that the republican politicians aren't willing to take these measures.

Every other country in the world that is taking quarantine measures is also ensuring that people who undergo them don't have to choose between feeding their family and risking death, illness and injury. The US is not uniquely incapable of doing the same.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 17, 2020, 03:21:22 am
Spoken like someone that is not struggling to put food on the table.  "All these problems with unemployment can be solved" is (if I may, respectfully) a very, very nonchalant way of looking at a situation where countless millions (keywords) of people are reaching a point (if they haven't already reached it) where they are unable to pay their rent, buy medicine, put food on the table, etc.  Often they have children.  It's very important to step back and look at a situation like this from every vantage point.  Not all are as fortunate as we may be.  I've had some of the guys I know that work blue-collar warehouse jobs already call asking if I have any food in my freezer that they can have, promising me they'll pay me back some day.  It's absolutely devastating.  Don't for a second dismiss "these problems with unemployment".  99.9% of married men with young children who have to watch their family do without would take the risk of permanent lung damage in a heartbeat to put food on the table.

To offer a concrete example of how this works around where I live (which, in case you are unaware, is Germany): We have an instrument called "Kurzarbeit", "short work", which allows an employer to reduce the hours his people are working by whatever amount is necessary (my current employer, for example, has sent our sales, marketing and content management teams into 10-20% Kurzarbeit). Pay is reduced in equal measure, but our social security system will pay each worker a percentage of the difference between the normal and current net wage. In extreme cases, i.e. where people's hours are reduced to zero, this comes out to about 67% of regular pay, which is certainly painful. However, since employment doesn't stop, there's a guarantee that once conditions improve, people can return to their jobs with a minimal amount of friction.

That isn't to say that companies haven't gone out of business here. But, even in those cases, workers are protected and have, through the aforementioned social security net, at least some income.

The point isn't to claim that this is inexpensive or easy to implement from scratch, especially when a crisis is actually happening. The point is that this is ultimately a price worth paying, as it ensures that people retain stability and that companies aren't disrupted as much as they are in the US right now (It also makes people the main recipients of welfare, instead of corporations).

You are absolutely correct that the consequences of losing a job, especially in low-income sectors of the economy, are horrifying. But they don't need to be; That they are is a consequence of decades of social and fiscal policy that prioritized welfare for corporations and people who are already rich over the quote-unquote normal people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 17, 2020, 03:44:39 am
The first rule of a crisis is "avoid making things worse".  Given that the W.H.O. has been shown to be not only ineffective but also criminally negligent, it should be of paramount importance to prevent them from causing further damage.

Right so the US federal government has made absolutely no mistakes here but the WHO is actively making things worse? Your only priority in all of this is to deflect any and all blame from Trump, to try to cast doubt on any suggestion he made literally any mistake at any stage of this crisis, and it's pathetic and evil.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 17, 2020, 04:31:33 am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the WHO will probably already have any money for at least part of this year from America anyway. So how is defunding them going to stop them from doing anything?

What it will do is add political pressure to do what Trump wants to regain their funding.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on April 17, 2020, 06:09:21 am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the WHO will probably already have any money for at least part of this year from America anyway. So how is defunding them going to stop them from doing anything?

What it will do is add political pressure to do what Trump wants to regain their funding.

The situation might last longer than we expect. This Harvard study (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/04/14/science.abb5793.full) published in Science Magazine estimates we may need to maintain social distancing intermittently up to until 2022, and heightened health monitoring levels up to 2024. During this time, the WHO and each country's national health authorities will presumably need resources.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 17, 2020, 06:36:00 am
Man, I'm far behind. Couple things I just wanted to add. Stealth, I think makes some very good points worth keeping in mind. The thing about the German Kurzarbeit, similar models, even the cash stimulus payouts here in the us...these measures geared towards mitigating economic damage, saving the economy, however you want to put it... They're untested. They're essentially experimental for the kind of long-term shutdowns that seem to be necessary here. They also carry a hefty financial butcher's bill of their own, and at some point aaaallll that money our govts have spent trying to save the economy needs to be paid back in some form. Thats a scary unknown for policy makers, hence the push for the return to "business as normal" because at least we all sort of understand how that functions. I'm not arguing for or against anything here... Just positing some food for thought.

Republicans can either help Democrats do just that, or get out of the way. If they don't get out of the way, then they'll have to face angry voters in November.

Here's my overly simplified, pessimistic prediction for how this plays out in November. Democrats want to continue the lockdown and save lives. Republicans want to open the country back up, and try to salvage the economy.

Scenario A: Democrats get their way. Further massive economic damage, but fewer deaths, mostly in big cities. Outside of the hardest hit big cities, folks say to themselves "See? Dems overreacted as usual. This wasn't a big deal, but now my retirement is wiped out."  Maybe the cities go blue, everywhere else goes red, not much changes politically speaking.

Scenario B. Republicans get their way. Country opens up. Economic damage is less, but still significant. Lots more people die, but again... Mostly in cities. Outside the cities, folks see their retirement accounts start to recover and think, "well it's too bad about Mary Lou and Jim down the way, but at least I'm working. Plus DT sent me that check." And not much changes.

We haven't really seen the smaller, rural healthcare systems collapse yet... And I don't know that we will soon enough to affect things in November. Dems are stuck being the ones saying "no" here... Which means they'll get blamed for the economic damage if they push strong lockdowns, but they won't get any credit if they back a return to business as usual that results in economic recovery. They're screwed either way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 17, 2020, 06:52:25 am
GIVE ONE example of how the World Health Organization has been "criminally negligent" ONE.

1. WHO erroneously said that healthy general population did not need to wear masks.

2. WHO erroneously said that travel restrictions are ineffective.

Not sure about criminally negligent, but WHO recommendations were very much questionable at best, and in these cases did more damage than good, even when the WHO as a whole most definitely does more good than harm. Still, defunding it is very stupid, but there needs to be some reform.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 17, 2020, 06:55:17 am
Quote from: Stealth
I agree with you that it shouldn't be a partisan issue, but it appears to be.
Each evening I'll watch the white house briefing, and then a few minutes of each 'side' argue (Fox/CNN).

Sorry for overlooking this before, but if you're watching Fox, CNN and the white house press briefings you're treating yourself to a small subset of the US's political spectrum, let alone the world's.  I'm not saying that means you should watch *more* stuff, but Trump (as an election strategy), Fox (through their political affiliation) and CNN (through their revenue model) have an active interest in polarising.

What it will do is add political pressure to do what Trump wants to regain their funding.

I mean, what can they do? the WHO recommended states to go for early detection, testing, tracing and social distancing according to risk from february onwards (https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/30-01-2020-statement-on-the-second-meeting-of-the-international-health-regulations-(2005)-emergency-committee-regarding-the-outbreak-of-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)), advice which the Trump administration completely ignored but is now praising itself for implementing. They can't exactly pressure the WHO to err, go back in time and not give the advice the US refused to listen to? What's the end goal here if you're already doing the opposite of what the WHO says you should do?

And why would the WHO be interested in regaining US funding specifically when they can get those funds elsewhere? Fine for Trump if he doesn't want to pay for an organization that he's not using, bu the EU and China can and will just jump in to fill the gap. There's no greater strategy here, or atleast not one that's going to end up in the US's favour. It just contributes to them losing more and more face.

Quote
2. WHO erroneously said that travel restrictions are ineffective.

the US and Italy both implemented travel restrictions from China. These are the hardest hit nations in the world right now. South Korea has only waived it's Visa-free travel agreement with China, and was able to get the outbreak under control through extensive testing and social distancing measures.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 17, 2020, 07:11:45 am
The thing about the German Kurzarbeit, similar models, even the cash stimulus payouts here in the us...these measures geared towards mitigating economic damage, saving the economy, however you want to put it... They're untested. They're essentially experimental for the kind of long-term shutdowns that seem to be necessary here. They also carry a hefty financial butcher's bill of their own, and at some point aaaallll that money our govts have spent trying to save the economy needs to be paid back in some form. Thats a scary unknown for policy makers, hence the push for the return to "business as normal" because at least we all sort of understand how that functions. I'm not arguing for or against anything here... Just positing some food for thought.

What are you talking about, social security is far from "untested". The scale of this crisis is unprecedented, but the basic mechanisms behind our social security do not care; We know that there's going to be a bit of deficit spending in the medium term, but here's the thing: That's not catastrophic either. Instead of seeing it as a debt, see it as an investment (which it is): By spending money now to keep people's lives and jobs as intact as possible, we're banking on a return on investment in a few years or decades.

Plus, always keep in mind that the US was at its most dynamic and prosperous at a time when the top marginal tax rate was in the high 70s and 80s.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 17, 2020, 07:15:12 am
the US and Italy both implemented travel restrictions. They were ineffective.

No, they were effective, even if they came too little and too late. Situation would be worse without them and they do slow down the curve. And that is why most of the world has corona-related travel restricitions implemented as of right now.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 17, 2020, 07:20:55 am
Quote
What are you talking about, social security is far from "untested". The scale of this crisis is unprecedented,

It should be noted that the US has implemented social security before, during the Great Depression, which at the moment has still left a bigger economic impact then the Coronavirus. Didn't lead to mass suicides or starvation deaths back then either (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/great-depression-had-little-effect-on-death-rates-46713514/).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 17, 2020, 07:24:10 am
too little and too late.

Italy implemented a full ban on travel to and from china from january the 31st onwards as soon as they detected the Coronavirus. (https://www.thelocal.it/20200131/italy-suspends-all-china-flights-after-coronavirus-cases-confirmed-in-rome/) It was the only EU country to do so.

It's also the EU country most affected by the outbreak.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 17, 2020, 07:31:16 am
No, they were effective, even if they came too little and too late. Situation would be worse without them and they do slow down the curve. And that is why most of the world has corona-related travel restricitions implemented as of right now.

Do you have data on that? Like, is there actual data that shows that the travel bans enacted by the Trump administration significantly altered the trajectory the covid outbreak followed?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 17, 2020, 07:32:39 am

What are you talking about, social security is far from "untested". The scale of this crisis is unprecedented, but the basic mechanisms behind our social security do not care; We know that there's going to be a bit of deficit spending in the medium term, but here's the thing: That's not catastrophic either. Instead of seeing it as a debt, see it as an investment (which it is): By spending money now to keep people's lives and jobs as intact as possible, we're banking on a return on investment in a few years or decades.

No, the 'basic mechanisms' don't care. The checks can still be written. But it is untested for the long-term support of a large portion of the population with the economy essentially paused. Sure, it was implemented during the Great Depression, but that also included things like the WPA. Putting people to work. Things that aren't really feasible under lockdown. As you said, the scale of the crisis is unprecedented. And it's more than a "bit" of deficit spending. The 'stimulus' bill was (very) roughly equivalent to the cost of the Iraq War. An ROI of a few decades is a long damn time for basically an entire generation that just managed to dig itself out of the last recession.

I mean, what can they do? the WHO recommended states to go for early detection, testing, tracing and social distancing according to risk from february onwards (https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/30-01-2020-statement-on-the-second-meeting-of-the-international-health-regulations-(2005)-emergency-committee-regarding-the-outbreak-of-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)), advice which the Trump administration completely ignored but is now praising itself for implementing. They can't exactly pressure the WHO to err, go back in time and not give the advice the US refused to listen to?

Yeah, I think its much more about a smokescreen/shifting blame than any "policy changes" that Trump would want from the WHO. I don't think Trump gives a **** what the WHO actually does, I think he's just seized on them as a useful punching bag to distract people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 17, 2020, 07:35:55 am
I think you and Joshua are absolutely right about what will be the result of trying to pressure the WHO. But that doesn't mean that Trump isn't arrogant enough to believe it will play out in his favour.

1. WHO erroneously said that healthy general population did not need to wear masks.

Prove it was erroneously. There's actually no scientific proof whatsoever that use of masks cuts down transmissions at all. Weigh that up against the danger of people panic buying PPE equipment which is still in short supply for hospitals and you're going to do a hell of a lot to convince me that it didn't actually save lives.

Quote
WHO erroneously said that travel restrictions are ineffective.

1) Did you notice that the WHO stopped doing that after countries actually did restrict travel?
2) Did you actually bother to read why they said they ineffective?

It's because if you restrict a certain country, people will just fly in via a different country thereby avoiding any checks for the country you think might be causing a danger. Having people arrive from China who fly in via Thailand to avoid restriction doesn't protect the US at all. But it does put Thailand at increased risk. Furthermore, you are going to have a hard time restricting your own nationals from flying back into the country. 40,000 people flew from China to the US after the ban. And yet the version of the virus that is spreading most in America is the European strain.

This is similar to your other argument where you are taking an idealistic view of how to prevent the spread of a disease while the actual experts in doing so have the experience to know why that won't work and actually try to make suggestions based on the best data they have.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 17, 2020, 07:37:17 am
Italy implemented a full ban on travel to and from china from january the 31st onwards as soon as they detected the Coronavirus. (https://www.thelocal.it/20200131/italy-suspends-all-china-flights-after-coronavirus-cases-confirmed-in-rome/) It was the only EU country to do so.

It's also the EU country most affected by the outbreak.

Again, too little and too late. Should have been done two weeks sooner and also including most flights, not just direct to China. And as I said, situation would be even worse without this.

And do you realize your article is from January and we are in April right now, with most of the world having significant travel restrictions due to corona, and rightly so? If anything, your article proves in hindsight how stupid the WHO position was.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 17, 2020, 07:38:32 am
Read my post. It doesn't prove that at all. What happened in Italy and the US is exactly what they predicted would happen.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 17, 2020, 07:44:13 am
This is similar to your other argument where you are taking an idealistic view of how to prevent the spread of a disease while the actual experts in doing so have the experience to know why that won't work and actually try to make suggestions based on the best data they have.

Actual experts are east Asian virologists. You know, the only countries that managed to deal with the pandemic effectively so far. Not WHO and not CDC.

And they do recommend both masks for general population and travel restrictions.

Prove it was erroneously. There's actually no scientific proof whatsoever that use of masks cuts down transmissions at all. Weigh that up against the danger of people panic buying PPE equipment

Masks generally work to prevent transmission of droplet infections. This is the mainstream scientific position. Corona is a droplet infection. Now nobody has dealt with a situation like this pandemic before, so maybe the mainstream view is wrong and masks are actually a bad idea in this case. But there is no evidence of that so far, and so stating that masks are not effective is erroneous. As for panic buying PPE, this is where WHO ought to have recommended to wear homemade washable cloth masks instead of disposable ones, and also come clean that they are doing it for this reason, not because it is supposedly not effective. They did neither of these things.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 17, 2020, 07:53:08 am
So now you're trying to bull**** me about what the WHO said about masks?

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/documents/advice-on-the-use-of-masks-2019-ncov.pdf

Quote
a medical  mask  is  not  required,  as  no  evidence  is available  on  its  usefulness  to  protect  non-sick persons. However,masks  might  be  wornin  some  countries according to local culturalhabits. If masks areused, best practices  should be  followed  on  how  to  wear,  remove, and  dispose  of  them  and  on  hand  hygiene  action  after removal  (see  below advice  regarding appropriate mask management).

Find me one quote where they said they weren't effective or admit you made the whole thing up about them saying it.

EDIT: As for why they didn't recommend masks (homemade or otherwise), they had to weigh up whether wearing a maks protects you more than the dangers of touching your face constantly to adjust it or contaminating yourself when you remove it. The science is completely out on that one. So you're basically saying that they should have made a completely unscientific recommendation based on no data whatsoever in January. And you're using the fact that they had a slight amount of data in April to suggest that they should have done it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 17, 2020, 07:59:45 am
In that same document, the WHO recommends all the basic stuff that has been government policy around the world: Keep your distance, wash your hands, make sure you take measures to protect yourself and others. It also says that people who do show symptoms of some respiratory infection absolutely should wear masks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 17, 2020, 07:59:56 am
So now you're trying to bull**** me about what the WHO said about masks?

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

Quote
If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection

And from your own source:

Quote
a medical  mask  is  not  required,  as  no  evidence  is available  on  its  usefulness  to  protect  non-sick persons.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 17, 2020, 08:02:55 am
Note that travel restrictions and bans ARE a subset of social distancing, and the default scientific consensus is that social distancing is a good idea during a pandemic. You better come up with some very good positive evidence to the contrary BEFORE you go against this view during a crisis like this. Even then, I think the best you could probably do is not show that travel restrictions are ineffective, but merely that their economic cost is not worth it depending on details of the situation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 17, 2020, 08:26:52 am
Evidently you don't understand what "Not effective" means. Not required does not mean not effective.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 17, 2020, 08:41:33 am
Evidently you don't understand what "Not effective" means. Not required does not mean not effective.

Unimportant semantics. My previous post said "WHO erroneously said that healthy general population did not need to wear masks." anyway.

Any statement that can be interpreted as not needing to wear masks, especially by general public, is a stupid statement. And this is not a theoretical danger but an actual one, as there were and are plenty of people running around without masks and even looking down on those who wear masks as uninformed or paranoid, precisely because of these erroneous recommendations aired by CDC and WHO.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 17, 2020, 08:54:45 am
I think you and Joshua are absolutely right about what will be the result of trying to pressure the WHO. But that doesn't mean that Trump isn't arrogant enough to believe it will play out in his favour.

Oh I flat out think this isn't a play that will "play out in his favour", this is just a teenager angrily screaming at his parents for not warning him about the things he was specifically warned about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 17, 2020, 09:39:16 am
Hi.  Actually guy with a genetics degree here and hefty immunology course load.  Wife is a public health RN.  And I read journal articles and studies because I'm a nerd like that/

Masks for general public use are NOT effective in preventing transmission.  The vast majority of people wear masks incorrectly (removing them to talk, not practicing proper hygiene, not maintaining a sterile zone) and they have been proven to increase risk of transmission via a false sense of security.  SARS-CoV-2 is droplet transmission and only aerosolized by certain medical procedures, so while an infected person wearing as mask is likely to reduce transmission via surfaces, MORE effective is STAYING THE **** HOME and having non-symptomatic people WASH THEIR HANDS and MAINTAIN A DISTANCE OF 2 METERS.  In other words, the three bits of advice that every public health authority the world over is giving out.  Recommending masks does nothing to prevent transmission, and creates a run on medical PPE - which we already saw and there are still shortages - by people who don't actually need it.  Medical professionals need medical grade masks (surgical, N95, N100, P100) - if everyone else wants to wear a cloth or non-medical masks that's their option (which the WHO said from the beginning) but they do very, very little to stop or slow transmission.

The difference in Asian countries is not masks.  It's aggressive distancing, rapid and aggressive test-and-trace, and collectivist cultures that prioritize following the instructions of authorities to everyone's benefit unlike the "MUH FREEDUMS!" asshats in most Western democracies.

So no, the WHO's advice on masks was not incorrect.  It was evidence-based best-advice designed to prevent false sense of security leading people to violate the other public health orders, and to keep precious PPE supplies from being bought and hoarded by private individuals.

And if you don't believe me. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1755436516300858)  That's influenza modelling/review data, which actually does readily aerosolize.

TL;DR:  Outside of a medical / close-contact setting, masks are nothing more than a feel-good placebo.  Maintaining a proper social distance will do more to prevent transmission than wearing a mask, particularly because mask wearers are more likely to engage in risk behaviour like touching the mask, touching their face, contaminating the protective field with mask removal with gloves or unwashed hands, and not following distancing protocols out of a false sense of security.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 17, 2020, 10:03:30 am
I'd heard most of that but not any evidence that masks actually were ineffective. Just that there was no proof that they were.

Just out of interest, what caused the WHO to start recommending cloth masks? I never heard an explanation for the change.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 17, 2020, 10:14:48 am
Just out of interest, what caused the WHO to start recommending cloth masks? I never heard an explanation for the change.

Public pressure.

Okay, that may be overly cynical.  There is also evidence that proper mask use, when combined with social distancing, handwashing, and staying home when sick may inhibit transmission particularly among presymptomatic individuals (one recent study from earlier this week estimates an average pre-symptomatic transmission rate of 44%) who will be inhibited from spreading droplets if they - and I can't emphasize this enough - wear masks properly.

To put this in perspective, my wife went grocery shopping yesterday.  We live in a fairly small community on the edge of a large city (low-ish population density).  In the course of her shopping experience, where are stores are heavily enforcing social distancing and hand/object sanitization measures, she also saw maybe a dozen people wearing masks.  Of that dozen, she witnessed - in just the few minutes she observed these people - no less than four of them compromise the mask's protective field through removal and/or touching.  One particularly brilliant individual would lift his mask to talk to people, then replace it.  :yes: genius.

What general advice to wear a mask does do is make it less stigmatizing for infected, symptomatic people - who should not be anywhere in public anyway - to wear a mask.  When everyone wears one, a mask no longer signals infection.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 17, 2020, 12:02:19 pm
You're mistaking my intent here, so maybe I wasn't clear. It isn't to defend Goober's beliefs, nor is it to say "the truth is in the middle," because in this case it absolutely is not. You're correct, there are often such things as objective truths and right answers. My argument (belief, whatever) is simply that we're better off not just dismissing people with whom we disagree as "unreachable" and asking them to leave a community. In my mind, that's being fragile because it's far easier to just say "no, go away you're wrong" than to keep talking to them. I know it's been tried in this thread with limited success...that's good. Keep trying, is my point. Maybe this short aside will help illustrate what I'm trying to say: One of the biggest struggles in my field is how to shift attitudes and policies regarding climate change, particularly in conservative areas. And what we've found (studies have been done!) is that the answer isn't just to say "go away you're wrong," but rather to try and find areas where meaningful dialogue can take place (even though they are wrong). Common ground.

I have all the empathy in the world for those living in the hardest hit areas, and all the admiration in the world for those who are risking their lives to help (including, apparently, your partner, Battuta). You're in the worst place in the US for this, and that has got to be terrifying. I'm scared too...because it's ****ing scary.

Just to add my support to this statement, which was very well put and I agree completely. I totally understand Battuta's feelings because I feel them myself (so that's an easy thing at least), and I quite not get Goober's feelings at all because I don't feel them whatsoever, but I fail to see malice in his words, at least by intent. And what good will it make to create barriers between different chambers, will the echoes we get as a result of those walls rising comfort and appease our souls? I think that may be the case, but on the other hand, we will have done two things: absolve ourselves of changing, even if millimetrically, those who feel completely otherwise, and provide our brains with the illusion that everyone thinks like we do.

And then we will falter with an immense fragility to the surprise of reality, just like in November 2016, or any other year since.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 17, 2020, 01:08:26 pm
Florida's governor, DeSantis, already drew criticism for leaving beaches open during spring break. Now, with Florida's daily death toll steadily increasing, beaches are starting to reopen. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8229933/Beaches-Florida-start-reopening-EVENING.html)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 17, 2020, 01:35:14 pm
all this nonsense talk about "reopening the economy" is going to kill so many people, it's not even funny.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 17, 2020, 02:33:29 pm
Hi.  Actually guy with a genetics degree here and hefty immunology course load.  Wife is a public health RN.  And I read journal articles and studies because I'm a nerd like that/

Great. From your own link:

Quote
5. Conclusion: Facemask use demonstrated mixed results, but a randomized control trial suggests that it is effective.

The vast majority of people wear masks incorrectly (removing them to talk, not practicing proper hygiene, not maintaining a sterile zone) and they have been proven to increase risk of transmission via a false sense of security.

Citation needed. Heck, I wonder how the hell would you even rigorously test a claim like that. As far as I am concerned, it is a mere opinion and a meme, not a scientific fact.

SARS-CoV-2 is droplet transmission and only aerosolized by certain medical procedures

And speaking, and breathing, and spitting, and coughing and sneezing..


As I said, east Asian countries, and increasingly even Western countries, are recommending or even mandating masks for general public. East Asian countries actually manage this pandemic quite well and have experience from SARS outbreaks, so their virologists are arguably the best in the world. They are not stupid and their guidelines are not due to public pressure only.


Also, you seem to be overstating how hard it is to wear a mask properly, this is not rocket science, nor a respirator. More importantly, even an improperly worn mask is better than nothing. Someone removes their mask for speaking? Sure it is dumb, but is it worse than an unmasked individual? That is very much debatable. Wearing a mask encourages touching the face? I may as well claim that it does the opposite and reminds/prevents the person from touching their face. And I bet there is no reliable study to show I am wrong on this.


Bottom line is, while the efficiency of mask use may be questionable and quality of evidence is often lacking, recommending NOT to wear masks is erroneous simply due to precautionary principle. At worst, mask use by general public may not help but it is a far larger stretch to claim it it does hurt. Hence why the top experts (who are NOT in WHO and CDC) recommend it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 17, 2020, 02:51:36 pm
I would argue that being the country most exposed to viral outbreaks does not make them the best qualified in dealing with them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: IronBeer on April 17, 2020, 03:02:53 pm
I'm normally hesitant to drop my credentials in any sort of conversation but it's now become relevant.

I've worked in sterile processing in the biotechnology sector, and was involved in (among other things) the design of clean rooms and sterile PPE protocols.

At a very simple level, I have trouble believing that even an ill-fitting makeshift mask won't physically trap at least some aerosols or droplets. Will this stop the droplets from possibly eventually leaking through and reaching your nose or mouth? Maybe.

The issue comes in with contacting the outward face of the mask, and disposal of it. Without practice, it's easy to contaminate your hands with the droplets trapped in the mask, then to transfer that contamination to one's personal effects, food, face, etc. Industrial settings have designated spaces for disposing of used PPE, and sources of sanitizers for the operator's hands. Additionally, properly adhering to sterile practice mandates that all items of PPE are single-use and single-use only. Applying these guidelines to the general public is obviously untenable due to the amount required.

We all saw how people freaked out over toilet paper - a product with basically no bearing on one's likelihood of contracting or surviving COVID - imagine the pandemonium that would have ensued if the authorities had recommended wearing non-improvised masks from day 1.

Also @maslo: you're exactly the kind of guy who should be wearing a mask and heavy PPE. Stay safe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on April 17, 2020, 03:33:26 pm
That said, their experiences with SARS in modern era gave them some more knowledge in dealing with it. And I don't mean only the specialists, but the whole population. People are going nuts in this "stay home" state right now, at least some, and I bet that they've already learned from multiple mistakes they've made how to be properly prepared for such an event.

I'd like to push up one thought here - that the largest part of the economic impact of this outbreak is due to people stopping buying stuff they don't actually need.

As for the masks... even if you contaminate yourself by touching the mask, and then subsequently other items you touch, you're still at least partially protected from spraying your stuff around while talking or, God forbid, sneezing. Say, in a store - even if you touched your own mask with your hands or single use gloves, if you keep to touching only products that you are taking with yourself and surfaces that are frequently sanitised (like shopping basket handles), you're really minimising risks of transmitting anything to others.


Another not confirmed rumor from the Polish scene. So supposedly the reusable face masks that were recently introduced into our National Postal Service's offer, sold for about 12,5 Euro per 5 piece pack, were actually donated to us by some other country (presumably China). I'm not going to wave around my "never let a good crisis go to waste" flag just yet. I'm just keeping it somewhere handy until it's confirmed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on April 17, 2020, 03:36:34 pm
Antibody research indicates coronavirus may be far more widespread than known
Of 3,300 people in California county up to 4% found to have been infected.

Snippet:
Quote
The first large-scale community test of 3,300 people in Santa Clara County found that 2.5 to 4.2% of those tested were positive for antibodies -- a number suggesting a far higher past infection rate than the official count.

Based on the initial data, researchers estimate that the range of people who may have had the virus to be between 48,000 and 81,000 in the county of 2 million -- as opposed to the approximately 1,000 in the county's official tally at the time the samples were taken.

“Our findings suggest that there is somewhere between 50- and 80-fold more infections in our county than what’s known by the number of cases than are reported by our department of public health," Dr. Eran Bendavid, the associate professor of medicine at Stanford University who led the study, said in an interview with ABC News' Diane Sawyer.

If this holds true across other locales, that means as more antibody testing comes online over the next few weeks, the death rate as a percentage will decline.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/antibody-research-coronavirus-widespread/story?id=70206121
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 17, 2020, 03:43:58 pm
If this holds true across other locales, that means as more antibody testing comes online over the next few weeks, the death rate as a percentage will decline.

it will not, however, reduce the absolute number dead, nor the degree of culpability of the american government in those deaths
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: IronBeer on April 17, 2020, 03:55:37 pm
As for the masks... even if you contaminate yourself by touching the mask, and then subsequently other items you touch, you're still at least partially protected from spraying your stuff around while talking or, God forbid, sneezing. Say, in a store - even if you touched your own mask with your hands or single use gloves, if you keep to touching only products that you are taking with yourself and surfaces that are frequently sanitised (like shopping basket handles), you're really minimising risks of transmitting anything to others.

Right, yes - I forgot to address that. Wearing a mask should make the wearer less infectious if they're already sick.

But of course it should go without saying to really avoid being out if you think you've got COVID.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on April 17, 2020, 04:01:59 pm
If this holds true across other locales, that means as more antibody testing comes online over the next few weeks, the death rate as a percentage will decline.

it will not, however, reduce the absolute number dead, nor the degree of culpability of the american government in those deaths

Oh I know, we still have that lurking in the background but it's kind of hard to tell China to pay for it when they're going to be recovering at least economically for a very very long time due to everyone pulling their critical infrastructure and more out of the country.  ("The research also found that if interventions in the country could have been conducted one week, two weeks, or three weeks earlier, cases could have been reduced by 66 percent, 86 percent and 95 percent respectively – significantly limiting the geographical spread of the disease. However, if NPIs were conducted one week, two weeks, or three weeks later than they were, the number of cases may have shown a 3-fold, 7-fold, or 18-fold increase, respectively." link (https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2020/03/covid-19-china.page) to article, link (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.03.20029843v2) to findings.)

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 17, 2020, 05:02:58 pm
Quote from: https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2020/03/covid-19-china.page
Study author Dr Shengjie Lai, of the University of Southampton, comments: “Our study demonstrates how important it is for countries which are facing an imminent outbreak to proactively plan a coordinated response which swiftly tackles the spread of the disease on a number of fronts. We also show that China’s comprehensive response, in a relatively short period, greatly reduced the potential health impact of the outbreak.”

The research also found that improved disease detection, isolation of cases and social distancing (for example, the cancelling of large public events, working from home and school closures) are likely to have had a far greater positive impact on containment than travel restrictions. The authors suggest social distancing should be continued for the next few months in China to prevent case numbers increasing again after the lifting of travel restrictions in late February.

Quote from: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.03.20029843v3
Conclusion: The NPIs deployed in China appear to be effectively containing the COVID-19 outbreak, but the efficacy of the different interventions varied, with the early case detection and contact reduction being the most effective.

jr2 you continue to display a staggering inability to actually read the articles and/or tweets you present to us as an argument for the US response. Why do you keep doing this, and why do you shy away from the questions people have previously asked you in this thread?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 17, 2020, 05:28:59 pm
I'm not sure if I find more dark humour in you linking to articles that spell out what China did right and spell out strategies as effective (that the Trump administration has not followed and is now actively protesting when individual states do them), or you pointing to Nancy Pelosi's critique of Trump's travel ban of Myanmar, Eritrea, Kyrgyzstan, Nigeria, Tanzania and Sudan as where the democrats were failing on the Coronavirus response.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 17, 2020, 06:27:46 pm
Honestly even aside from jr2/Goober's unbreakable partisan faith in Trump's infallibility, there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies (I'm sure some of it is, but the US is currently like 10 times worse and is probably also undercounting).

Also fun fact: the South Korean government refused to implement travel bans from China despite strong agitation from right-wing parties to do so. It has subsequently had one of the most effective COVID containment and suppression programs in the world. And yet Trump slapping on a travel ban from China and doing nothing to track or prevent domestic spread is supposed to be proof that his administration handled the pandemic perfectly.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 17, 2020, 06:57:45 pm
there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies (I'm sure some of it is, but the US is currently like 10 times worse and is probably also undercounting).

The numbers from China are utterly untrustworthy. So are the numbers from North Korea (which supposedly has 0 cases) and Russia (which supposedly has 273 total deaths).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: jr2 on April 17, 2020, 07:13:59 pm
Quote from: https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2020/03/covid-19-china.page
Study author Dr Shengjie Lai, of the University of Southampton, comments: “Our study demonstrates how important it is for countries which are facing an imminent outbreak to proactively plan a coordinated response which swiftly tackles the spread of the disease on a number of fronts. We also show that China’s comprehensive response, in a relatively short period, greatly reduced the potential health impact of the outbreak.”

The research also found that improved disease detection, isolation of cases and social distancing (for example, the cancelling of large public events, working from home and school closures) are likely to have had a far greater positive impact on containment than travel restrictions. The authors suggest social distancing should be continued for the next few months in China to prevent case numbers increasing again after the lifting of travel restrictions in late February.

Quote from: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.03.20029843v3
Conclusion: The NPIs deployed in China appear to be effectively containing the COVID-19 outbreak, but the efficacy of the different interventions varied, with the early case detection and contact reduction being the most effective.

jr2 you continue to display a staggering inability to actually read the articles and/or tweets you present to us as an argument for the US response. Why do you keep doing this, and why do you shy away from the questions people have previously asked you in this thread?


So you are denying that China destroyed virus research in December (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chinese-scientists-destroyed-proof-of-virus-in-december-rz055qjnj), downplaying the severity while allowing travel (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html), and disappeared whistleblowers (https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1263457/coronavirus-china-whistle-blower-ai-fen-wuhan-central-hospital)?

In other words, China reacted too late, ignoring the problem for the first few weeks, in an effort to save face, thus causing much of the world, even if they reacted in a more austere manner than was generally recommended by 'experts', to underreact.

Two things can be true at once.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 17, 2020, 08:12:30 pm
Florida's governor, DeSantis, already drew criticism for leaving beaches open during spring break. Now, with Florida's daily death toll steadily increasing, beaches are starting to reopen. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8229933/Beaches-Florida-start-reopening-EVENING.html)

Quote
You yell, "Barracuda!" and everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell, "Shark!"...we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.

Did anyone else immediately think the same thing?


I'm just wondering who Trump will blame this time. Everyone on the left said don't do it. The WHO said don't do it. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if China decides to chime in and say don't do it just so that they can say "We told you not to do it" when this turns into a ****ing disaster.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 17, 2020, 08:17:07 pm
And speaking, and breathing, and spitting, and coughing and sneezing..

That doesn't aerosolize the virus.  You seem to misunderstand what the difference between droplet and aerosol transmission is.  All of those are droplet; they don't produce sufficient viral shedding in fine airborne droplets.  This is why hospitals are conserving fine particulate masks for only high-risk aerosol procedures, not general interaction with COVID patients.

This is an excellent specialist review of why widespread mask recommendation for the general public is more-or-less pointless, and exactly why organizations like the WHO don't recommend it broadly: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 17, 2020, 09:24:41 pm
Quote
You yell, "Barracuda!" and everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell, "Shark!"...we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.

Did anyone else immediately think the same thing?

And the death toll in Jaws was what, ten people?

Someone should make a meme replacing Mayor Vaughn with DeSantis.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 01:32:02 am
downplaying the severity while allowing travel (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html)

jr2 for the sake of saving you from yourself I have to point out that the middle article you link talks about the US's ineffectiveness in enforcing its own travel ban. It's talking about how the US failed to stop people from arriving after its travel ban and did not screen these arrivals properly. It is in fact the same article as Karajorma posted earlier! (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96228.msg1895796#msg1895796)

I don't even particularly care about your rather bizarre attempts to point to China's failings whilst not even acknowledging US failings. It has been pointed out throughout this thread that the content of the articles you post to reinforce your talking points are not what you claim they are and in fact undermine your various talking points. Despite this being pointed out to you repeatedly you continue to not read the articles you bring to your own defence. Why?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 18, 2020, 03:41:24 am
Additionally, properly adhering to sterile practice mandates that all items of PPE are single-use and single-use only. Applying these guidelines to the general public is obviously untenable due to the amount required.

Also @maslo: you're exactly the kind of guy who should be wearing a mask and heavy PPE. Stay safe.

Agree, single use would be optimal, however not very realistic when it comes to masks for general population. Id say washable cloth masks are the best option there, and easy to DYI. Respirators are in short supply here as well, and my colleagues sadly have to resort to baking respirators in an oven and reusing them. Luckily not me, as at our clinic we are cozily wrapped up in what is almost a spacesuit. Thanks you!  :yes:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 18, 2020, 04:55:45 am
My army respirator filters needed changing quite regularly when in romeo state.  So not sure how useful all these preppers think their kit will be.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 18, 2020, 05:14:51 am
there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies (I'm sure some of it is, but the US is currently like 10 times worse and is probably also undercounting).

The numbers from China are utterly untrustworthy. So are the numbers from North Korea (which supposedly has 0 cases) and Russia (which supposedly has 273 total deaths).

"I'm not a public health expert but I'm pretty sure they're all wrong and China actually had ten million deaths, the crafty communists just covered it up." Without credible evidence for how many deaths you think the CCP have covered up this is just a conspiracy theory being used to cover up the West's failings.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 05:26:06 am
It's not like anyone here is going to vote for the CCP. The people that do don't have a choice.

Every person in this thread has voting rights in a democracy and some of those democracies are doing a far worse job then others. The CCP's lies/wishful thinking are not only beyond our control, they're also a factor that literally every democracy has had to deal with: South Korea was told the same things as the US was - yet South Korea is doing a far better job at containing their outbreak then the US is dealing with theirs. That is where we do have choices to make.

Focusing on China focuses the debate on external factors beyond our control and in doing so the debate is not about internal factors we can control. jr2 in particular focuses on China when he is confronted with questions about the government that he voted for.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 06:00:38 am
Not that it's a very effective tactic mind.  Talking about how China was too slow to take measures and underestimated the severity of the disease only highlights how some democratic governments are too slow to take measures and underestimating the severity of the disease months later.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 18, 2020, 07:48:18 am
The whole debate about China lying about the number of deaths is morally bankrupt if you're going to say the president didn't fail in any major ways anyway. It implies that the US government had a correctly measured response to a virus which would kill 4000 people in China. That they honestly believed that they were prepared for that and it was only the fact that the virus was much more deadly that means people in the US have died in such large numbers. That there were no major flaws in the government's response to COVID-19 had it been as deadly as advertised. That is the absolute implication of what Donald Trump has claimed. That is the implication of what jr2 and Goober have implied on this very thread with their refusal to say that the US made major mistakes. That the US would have taken more strigent measures, would have regarded COVID-19 as much more of dangerous only if they knew more people in China had died.

Let's investigate that. Let's assume there were 40,000 deaths. There's absolutely no evidence to back that up but let's assume it for sake of argument.

The US government wasn't prepared for even a virus at that level. Let's say the Chinese lied about how transmissible the virus was. The US has 700,000 cases. We're still saying they were expecting 70,000. At the mortality rate in the Chinese figures that is still 3,500 people dead. Both of those numbers put the US well in the top 10 most affected countries. Even at 1% mortality that's 700 dead which is still in the top 20! So the absolute implication is that the Trump government, doing everything absolutely correctly expected America to be one of the worst affected countries even if everything had gone to plan.

The number of people who died in China being wrong is a massive red herring. The figures from China are bad enough that the US needed to have done more about COVID-19 even if they had turned out to be absolutely true.


TL;DR I have no idea why the Republicans keep pushing this "The WHO lied, China lied" narrative. Best case scenario is that the Democrats were right for the wrong reasons (more testing was needed, earlier social distancing and shudowns) while Trump was wrong for the wrong reasons (trusting China and the WHO) and still expected a lot of Americans to die.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 18, 2020, 09:49:34 am
"I'm not a public health expert but I'm pretty sure they're all wrong and China actually had ten million deaths, the crafty communists just covered it up." Without credible evidence for how many deaths you think the CCP have covered up this is just a conspiracy theory being used to cover up the West's failings.

I have no idea how many deaths China had (though ten million is absurd). As for evidence:

  • I've already mentioned several people who were disappeared or imprisoned in connection with the coronavirus. Their names bear repeating: Fang Bin and Chen Qiushi (journalists), Xu Zhangrun and Xu Zhiyong (academics), and Ren Zhiqiang (real estate tycoon).
  • Doctors at the Central Hospital of Wuhan (https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/wuhan-doctors-say-colleagues-died-in-vain-amid-official-cover-up) were banned from communicating critical information to the public. Some doctors (e.g. Ai Fen and the late Li Wenliang) were punished for warning friends and colleagues.
  • Starting on December 31, (https://citizenlab.ca/2020/03/censored-contagion-how-information-on-the-coronavirus-is-managed-on-chinese-social-media/) Chinese social media censored a wide variety of coronavirus-related keywords and keyword combinations, including (translated) "Wuhan seafood market", "SARS variation", "P4 virus lab", "Xi Jinping + epidemic spread", and "Communist Party + pneumonia + demonstrate + rule".
  • In defiance of the CCP, (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/business/media/coronavirus-china-journalists.html) Chinese journalists have reported that officials concealed similarities to SARS, and that they delayed warnings of human-to-human transmission.
  • Universities in China (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/11/china-clamping-down-on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-suggest) have posted new policies specifically regarding research into the coronavirus' origins - for example, a requirement that papers on the source of the outbreak (but not papers on other medical topics) be approved by China's ministry of science and technology.

How can you trust a government that controls the narrative to such a degree? The CCP has zero credibility. Remember that the same organization denied the existence of their concentration camps - and we still have no idea how many people are in those camps, though estimates range from hundreds of thousands, to a million, to three million. The CCP absolutely has the motivation and the power to hide their coronavirus death toll.

The whole debate about China lying about the number of deaths is morally bankrupt if you're going to say the president didn't fail in any major ways anyway. It implies that the US government had a correctly measured response to a virus which would kill 4000 people in China.

China's response does nothing to excuse the U.S.' response, and vice versa. It's obvious (and completely predictable) that governments around the world are trying to divert attention from their own botched responses. The upside is that every government is having its failings thrown into stark relief.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 10:00:55 am
Quote
How can you trust a government that controls the narrative to such a degree?
I'm not sure where you got the impression that anyone here trusts the chinese government.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 18, 2020, 10:05:49 am
My point is that

The numbers from China are utterly untrustworthy.

4,000, or whatever number they're saying, is worthless.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 10:14:57 am
So what? How does that change Hoover's original point?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 18, 2020, 10:55:20 am
I can't tell whether Hoover is claiming that

A. it's a conspiracy theory to say that China actually had ten million deaths; or
B. it's a conspiracy theory to say that the numbers from China are utterly untrustworthy.

If he's claiming A, then duh. If he's claiming B, then I directly addressed his claim.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 11:08:21 am
You could tell if you read his post!

Quote
there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies (I'm sure some of it is, but the US is currently like 10 times worse and is probably also undercounting).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 18, 2020, 11:13:13 am
I can't tell whether Hoover is claiming that

A. it's a conspiracy theory to say that China actually had ten million deaths; or
B. it's a conspiracy theory to say that the numbers from China are utterly untrustworthy.

If he's claiming A, then duh. If he's claiming B, then I directly addressed his claim.

A is an obvious conspiracy theory.

But here's the thing: So is B.

There's a chance, even a pretty good one, that the officially publicised numbers for China do not actually reflect the real spread or impact of COVID-19 (This is true globally!).
The point is, every number you see is inherently flawed. There is simply not enough testing happening for anything else. The chinese government could be completely transparent about every part of the process, and their statistics would still be flawed.
So: To claim that there is intentional under-reporting is a conspiracy theory. One that has a convincing story behind it, but a conspiracy theory nonetheless because there is little evidence for it. I can see how one can make the assumption that there is intentional under-reporting happening, hell, I even agree that it's likely, but at the same time: We know that containment measures, taken early and followed consistently are very effective at reducing the spread and therefore death toll of COVID-19, so there actually is a chance that the underreporting factor is not as large as you assume.

So, in my admittedly completely unprofessional estimation: Whether or not the chinese government is under-reporting does. Not. Matter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 18, 2020, 11:27:56 am
Quote
  • I've already mentioned several people who were disappeared or imprisoned in connection with the coronavirus. Their names bear repeating: Fang Bin and Chen Qiushi (journalists), Xu Zhangrun and Xu Zhiyong (academics), and Ren Zhiqiang (real estate tycoon).
  • Doctors at the Central Hospital of Wuhan (https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/wuhan-doctors-say-colleagues-died-in-vain-amid-official-cover-up) were banned from communicating critical information to the public. Some doctors (e.g. Ai Fen and the late Li Wenliang) were punished for warning friends and colleagues.
  • Starting on December 31, (https://citizenlab.ca/2020/03/censored-contagion-how-information-on-the-coronavirus-is-managed-on-chinese-social-media/) Chinese social media censored a wide variety of coronavirus-related keywords and keyword combinations, including (translated) "Wuhan seafood market", "SARS variation", "P4 virus lab", "Xi Jinping + epidemic spread", and "Communist Party + pneumonia + demonstrate + rule".
  • In defiance of the CCP, (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/business/media/coronavirus-china-journalists.html) Chinese journalists have reported that officials concealed similarities to SARS, and that they delayed warnings of human-to-human transmission.
  • Universities in China (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/11/china-clamping-down-on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-suggest) have posted new policies specifically regarding research into the coronavirus' origins - for example, a requirement that papers on the source of the outbreak (but not papers on other medical topics) be approved by China's ministry of science and technology.

How can you trust a government that controls the narrative to such a degree? The CCP has zero credibility. Remember that the same organization denied the existence of their concentration camps - and we still have no idea how many people are in those camps, though estimates range from hundreds of thousands, to a million, to three million. The CCP absolutely has the motivation and the power to hide their coronavirus death toll.

And yet we heard about all that stuff and have proof it happened. Cause the Chinese government doesn't really care anywhere near as much about keeping secrets from the West as it does about keeping them from their own people. So when it comes to one of the biggest stories in the world, why would you expect the death count to be much higher than reported? Especially when the Chinese government is doing stuff like giving revised counts from residential homes regardless of how likely it is that dumb Trump supporters are going to claim that's proof of China lying cause they're unaware that pretty much most countries are only reporting hospital deaths at the moment. It's not like they couldn't have stuck at 4000.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on April 18, 2020, 11:36:39 am
I think what we're all forgetting here is that Xi Jinping and thirty-six of his closest friends were the only Chinese survivors of COVID-19.  All the footage of China reopening are cleverly posed maniquins, and their industrial output just shows that their automation technology is further along than we thought.  Karajorma was Xi Jinping this whole time.  Very modest of him to keep his identity under wraps, but now we know the truth.

There haven't been any American deaths.  Something-something crisis actors.  Trump personally prevented a COVID-19 outbreak in the United States, and anything else you hear is fake news.  Sorry, #fakenews.

Stay-at-home orders are a Democratic conspiracy to tank the economy and make Trump look bad in the months leading up to the election.  Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton came up with the plan while ****ing children at Rocket Pizza.  It's right there in Hillary's 36,000 deleted e-mails.  QAnon will reveal all.

Prove me wrong!  But you know, not with credible sources or anything, because credibility is fake news.  Sorry, #fakenews.


*Sigh*

I'm going to go get some lunch.  I think hunger has driven me to delerium.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 18, 2020, 11:45:28 am
You could tell if you read his post!

Quote
there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies (I'm sure some of it is, but the US is currently like 10 times worse and is probably also undercounting).

OK, that's an earlier post than the one I was talking about. "The US is currently like 10 times worse" makes an assumption about the number of deaths in China. All of the data we have from China is utterly untrustworthy.

there actually is a chance that the underreporting factor is not as large as you assume.

So, in my admittedly completely unprofessional estimation: Whether or not the chinese government is under-reporting does. Not. Matter.

What have I assumed about the under-reporting factor?

I don't see how you can say that intentional under-reporting "does not matter". If we want useful data, then of course it matters. If we're playing the game of "how do the US' response and China's response compare" - which is not a game I'm interested in playing - then of course it matters.

And yet we heard about all that stuff and have proof it happened. Cause the Chinese government doesn't really care anywhere near as much about keeping secrets from the West as it does about keeping them from their own people. So when it comes to one of the biggest stories in the world, why would you expect the death count to be much higher than reported?

... because the Chinese government wants to appear competent to its own people?

Despite your claim that they don't really care about keeping secrets from the West, we still have no idea how many people they have in concentration camps (for example). If you truly believe that "all that stuff" I mentioned is the entirety of their cover-up, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 18, 2020, 11:57:20 am
The whole China thing doesn't matter. Much of this thread has been arguing that the west's, particularly the US', response to the virus has been horrible. Comparing to China's numbers was one facet of that argument. Then people like jr2 and Goober jumped on that topic foolishly thinking that if they can disprove that particular point then the entire argument about the US' horrible, lazy response would meltdown. This is not the case.

TLDR; it doesn't matter what China's actual numbers are. The US has botched this problem either way and people are dying because of it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 18, 2020, 11:58:22 am
What have I assumed about the under-reporting factor?

That it is inflated by intentional efforts to cover things up.

Why do I need to explain your assumptions to you.

Quote
I don't see how you can say that intentional under-reporting "does not matter". If we want useful data, then of course it matters. If we're playing the game of "how do the US' response and China's response compare" - which is not a game I'm interested in playing - then of course it matters.

Because it, quite literally, does not matter at this point. It mattered back in January, now it doesn't; Now we have a lot of data from a multitude of sources, some more reliable than others.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 12:50:29 pm
OK, that's an earlier post than the one I was talking about. "The US is currently like 10 times worse" makes an assumption about the number of deaths in China. All of the data we have from China is utterly untrustworthy.

But that's the thing: If China managed to hide tens of thousands of deaths, the US would still be matching that (assuming no under-reporting on the side of the US, which is a stretch considering its lack of testing). It's not so much about how utterly untrustworthy the Chinese data is, but how effective their cover-up would have to be in order to absolve the US government. Last time I checked...

Quote
“You’re talking about 2.2 million deaths,” Trump said, referring to an Imperial College study that identified 2.2 million people as the high end of how many Americans could die if no measures were taken to slow the spread of coronavirus. “So if we can hold that down, as we’re saying, to 100,000, it’s a horrible number, maybe even less, but to 100,000, so we have between 100 [thousand] and 200,000, we altogether have done a very good job.”

Do you think China is able to hide between a hundred thousand and 2.2 million deaths?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Stealth on April 18, 2020, 01:43:49 pm
Florida's governor, DeSantis, already drew criticism for leaving beaches open during spring break. Now, with Florida's daily death toll steadily increasing, beaches are starting to reopen. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8229933/Beaches-Florida-start-reopening-EVENING.html)

Quote
You yell, "Barracuda!" and everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell, "Shark!"...we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.

Did anyone else immediately think the same thing?


I'm just wondering who Trump will blame this time. Everyone on the left said don't do it. The WHO said don't do it. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if China decides to chime in and say don't do it just so that they can say "We told you not to do it" when this turns into a ****ing disaster.

LOL too funny.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Stealth on April 18, 2020, 01:45:02 pm
If this holds true across other locales, that means as more antibody testing comes online over the next few weeks, the death rate as a percentage will decline.

it will not, however, reduce the absolute number dead, nor the degree of culpability of the american government in those deaths

No, but what it will do, is when it turns out only 0.2% of cases are fatal, it will quickly reduce the amount of panic.
I live in one of the top 5 largest cities in America, and haven't been able to buy toilet paper for 6 weeks.  Or a good steak for that matter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 02:11:38 pm
No, but what it will do, is when it turns out only 0.2% of cases are fatal, it will quickly reduce the amount of panic.

What are you even basing that on?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 18, 2020, 02:15:38 pm
What have I assumed about the under-reporting factor?

That it is inflated by intentional efforts to cover things up.

Why do I need to explain your assumptions to you.

You're gaslighting me now? Here's what you claimed:

so there actually is a chance that the underreporting factor is not as large as you assume.

I am, in fact, making no assumptions about the size of the under-reporting factor. Have there been 5,000 deaths? 10,000? 50,000? I have no idea.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 18, 2020, 02:18:10 pm
Because it, quite literally, does not matter at this point. It mattered back in January, now it doesn't; Now we have a lot of data from a multitude of sources, some more reliable than others.
TLDR; it doesn't matter what China's actual numbers are. The US has botched this problem either way and people are dying because of it.

You must be joking. By saying that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are, you're doing exactly what jr2 and Goober were doing: minimizing the number of deaths, and the extent of the government's failures. jr2 and Goober were doing it with the U.S., and now you're doing it with China.

But that's the thing: If China managed to hide tens of thousands of deaths, the US would still be matching that (assuming no under-reporting on the side of the US, which is a stretch considering its lack of testing). It's not so much about how utterly untrustworthy the Chinese data is, but how effective their cover-up would have to be in order to absolve the US government. Last time I checked...

Quote
“You’re talking about 2.2 million deaths,” Trump said, referring to an Imperial College study that identified 2.2 million people as the high end of how many Americans could die if no measures were taken to slow the spread of coronavirus. “So if we can hold that down, as we’re saying, to 100,000, it’s a horrible number, maybe even less, but to 100,000, so we have between 100 [thousand] and 200,000, we altogether have done a very good job.”

Do you think China is able to hide between a hundred thousand and 2.2 million deaths?

What on earth is your obsession with "absolving the U.S. government"? The U.S. government's response was horrible. That has nothing to do with China.

I have no idea what China's numbers are. That said, where concentration camps are concerned, China is able to hide between hundreds of thousands and 3 million prisoners.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 18, 2020, 03:03:06 pm
I am, in fact, making no assumptions about the size of the under-reporting factor. Have there been 5,000 deaths? 10,000? 50,000? I have no idea.

You are, however, making the assumption that the chinese government is intentionally under-reporting. That does imply that the chinese government, on some level, is aware of the real toll (or, at least, has data that diverges from the official data). It seems to me that, aside from the inherent unreliability of COVID-19-related statistics, statistics that have been intentionally manipulated would be subject to a higher degree of underreporting than "natural" data would be.

You must be joking. By saying that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are, you're doing exactly what jr2 and Goober were doing: minimizing the number of deaths, and the extent of the government's failures. jr2 and Goober were doing it with the U.S., and now you're doing it with China.

It doesn't matter whether or not the COVID data from China is accurate or intentionally fuzzed, because COVID is already everywhere. There is, bluntly, much more data available now, from ostensibly more reliable sources, that can be used to inform policy. I mean, the basic claim the chinese government made, through its data, is that travel restrictions, testing and tracing, and quickly ramped-up health care capacity are effective tools in mitigating the outbreak. Is that really so outlandish?

The only thing that matters is what the PRC government is doing to reduce the impact of COVID. Unless there's data to the contrary out there, I think it's useless to assume or speculate about what the PRC is trying to hide from whom; the thing is that, for all its faults, once the PRC decided to actually fight the disease, they did it in a coherent and apparently effective manner from what Kara tells us.

I don't quite know how you think that's anywhere close to what our resident trumpets are trying to do: I don't think I am actually minimizing anything when I try to point out to you that this whole "They must be covering something up, because those official numbers are obvious nonsense" thing you're doing where the only supporting evidence you present are restrictions on social networks and scientific communication and research is, in my humble opinion, just another conspiracy theory that is rooted more in prejudice than in fact.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 03:44:44 pm
The U.S. government's response was horrible. That has nothing to do with China.

Do you realize that this thread and the very posts you are replying to are part of an ongoing conversation where people are disputing this statement? The whole notion of absolving the US government is the context in which the statements you are challenging have been made.

Quote
I have no idea what China's numbers are. That said, where concentration camps are concerned, China is able to hide between hundreds of thousands and 3 million prisoners.

China is not able to hide this. The concentration camps are well documented. Their existence is widely known throughout the world (or atleast the people that care about following what China does). It's known within China! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps#Responses_from_China) To the point that the chinese authorities have more or less given up about trying to deny it's existence and instead have started talking about how they are good actually.

That's what makes this a conspiracy theory: For the chinese numbers to be far worse then stated, they have to show an ability to hide information that is far greater then any government (let alone themselves) has had, especially in this era where everyone has an internet connection and the ability to photograph and submit evidence at the press of a button (yes, I realize there's a great firewall, but it's hardly foolproof).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 18, 2020, 04:21:57 pm
TBH It's getting kinda hard to keep track of what the ongoing conversation in this thread is about. . .

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 18, 2020, 04:40:35 pm
TBH It's getting kinda hard to keep track of what the ongoing conversation in this thread is about. . .

Fine let's make it about this:
(https://images.nrc.nl/ovVWqhwp3yoc1v23siGVGjux4oQ=/1920x/smart/filters:no_upscale():strip_icc()/s3/static.nrc.nl/widgets/files/2020/04/us-demonstrators-protests-at-texas-state-capitol-against-governo32992897.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 18, 2020, 04:44:07 pm
Nope. Nope nope nope. I can't take anymore stupid today.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 18, 2020, 04:53:51 pm
I don't quite know how you think that's anywhere close to what our resident trumpets are trying to do: I don't think I am actually minimizing anything when I try to point out to you that this whole "They must be covering something up, because those official numbers are obvious nonsense" thing you're doing where the only supporting evidence you present are restrictions on social networks and scientific communication and research is, in my humble opinion, just another conspiracy theory that is rooted more in prejudice than in fact.

The CCP has zero credibility with regard to its reporting on the outbreak. You might as well pull a number out of a hat.

You're seriously going to defend the claim that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? What if I said that it doesn't matter what NYC's numbers are? This is actually making me angry.

Do you realize that this thread and the very posts you are replying to are part of an ongoing conversation where people are disputing this statement? The whole notion of absolving the US government is the context in which the statements you are challenging have been made.

Sorry, I must have missed the memo that this is solely a U.S.-bashing thread. None of my U.S.-bashing posts generated any controversy, oddly enough.

China is not able to hide this. The concentration camps are well documented. Their existence is widely known throughout the world (or atleast the people that care about following what China does).

And how long did it take the world to discover the camps?

Even after two years, we only know that they have people in camps, just as we know that they have deaths from the coronavirus. What we don't know is how many people they have in camps. And there's a tremendous gulf between the low estimates and the high estimates.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: themaddin on April 18, 2020, 04:56:12 pm


That's one for the Darwin Awards...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Goober5000 on April 18, 2020, 05:38:57 pm
GIVE ONE example of how the World Health Organization has been "criminally negligent" ONE.

https://summit.news/2020/04/01/japanese-vp-the-who-should-be-renamed-the-chinese-health-organization/
Quote
the World Health Organization repeatedly amplified Chinese propaganda that the coronavirus outbreak was under control, including a January 14th tweet (https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152) which falsely claimed there was no human to human transmission of the disease, despite this having occurred in December.

Throughout January, the WHO praised China for its open and “speedy” response to COVID-19, even as Beijing authorities were silencing and disappearing doctors like Ai Fen who tried to warn the world that China was engaged in a cover-up.

The global health body also repeatedly told countries not to enforce border controls that could have stopped the spread of the virus, instead placing more importance on avoiding the “stigmatization” of Chinese people.

Quote
Also enplane why the USA is getting hit hardest by the virus if the W.H.O.'s "ineffectiveness" is to blame.

The USA is far from the hardest hit.  Switzerland has six times the number of cases, per-capita.

Quote
EDIT: Oh and:

Math is math no matter who does it.

They are literally just making up numbers at this point.

And without a tinge of Irony.

Does the truth matter so little to you that you assign imaginary numbers the same weight as shown-their-work calculations?



I didn't ignore them. I looked up the claims Cernovich made and found several more reputable sources that agreed with him.
You misunderstood the question, basically: If, as you say, it's all just simple math, why is the first source you quote the blog of someone who can be charitably described as a grifter?

I understood the question, but it's the wrong question.  My first priority is the truth.  The message is more important than the messenger.

The problem with relying on "reputable" sources is that people will lie to you about who is reputable and who isn't.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Stealth on April 18, 2020, 05:45:00 pm
No, but what it will do, is when it turns out only 0.2% of cases are fatal, it will quickly reduce the amount of panic.

What are you even basing that on?
The fact that the only people getting tested right now are the ones with permission, that are displaying symptoms.
It's common sense.
Obviously I pulled the 0.2% out of thin air, but obviously if the only ones being tested have symptoms (i.e. have a much greater chance of actually being sick with coronavirus), then the % mortality is going to be WAY higher.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 18, 2020, 07:36:14 pm
Quote
Also enplane why the USA is getting hit hardest by the virus if the W.H.O.'s "ineffectiveness" is to blame.
The USA is far from the hardest hit.  Switzerland has six times the number of cases, per-capita.

Per-Capita is not a useful measure when it comes to Epidemiology. population density and infection rate are far more important.
The change in cases over time is also a much better measure for determining spread:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-deaths-covid-19?time=2020-02-22..&country=BEL+FRA+DEU+ITA+GBR+USA

EDIT: here is another chart that is based on relative change:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-deaths-covid-19?yScale=log&stackMode=relative&time=2020-02-22..&country=BEL+FRA+DEU+ITA+GBR+USA+SWE+CHN+IND+NZL


How fast an infection is spreading is how you tell what country is being the hardest hit, and it's the USA.

EDIT2 spelling.


Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 18, 2020, 09:29:20 pm
You're seriously going to defend the claim that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? What if I said that it doesn't matter what NYC's numbers are? This is actually making me angry.

You're arguing at cross-purposes with pretty much everyone else at this point. No one is saying that China has carte blanche to lie about its numbers. The point Hoover was making and which you decided to jump on was this.

Quote
Honestly even aside from jr2/Goober's unbreakable partisan faith in Trump's infallibility, there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies.

Nothing you have said addresses this. In fact you are literally doing what he complains about.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 18, 2020, 10:32:12 pm
You're seriously going to defend the claim that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? What if I said that it doesn't matter what NYC's numbers are? This is actually making me angry.

You're arguing at cross-purposes with pretty much everyone else at this point.

Are you agreeing that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? Because that's the most blatant minimizing and denialism that I've seen in the entire thread, which is exactly what irked me. Especially since everyone had already condemned that behavior.

Nothing you have said addresses this. In fact you are literally doing what he complains about.

I notice you left out precisely the part of Hoover's post that I was addressing.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: DefCynodont119 on April 18, 2020, 11:32:20 pm
Are you agreeing that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? Because that's the most blatant minimizing and denialism that I've seen in the entire thread, which is exactly what irked me. Especially since everyone had already condemned that behavior.

I don't think anyone here is saying that.  :wtf:

As a matter of fact, re-reading these posts lead me to think that there is a misunderstanding here about posters arguing about whether it is/was relevant to the ongoing discussion in that or this point in the thread, rather then posters whether it is/was relevant at all.


Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 19, 2020, 12:15:23 am
No, but what it will do, is when it turns out only 0.2% of cases are fatal, it will quickly reduce the amount of panic.

What are you even basing that on?
The fact that the only people getting tested right now are the ones with permission, that are displaying symptoms.
It's common sense.
Obviously I pulled the 0.2% out of thin air, but obviously if the only ones being tested have symptoms (i.e. have a much greater chance of actually being sick with coronavirus), then the % mortality is going to be WAY higher.

This is fair, but there are plenty of countries that are testing people en masse to the point that you don't have to pull a number out of thin air (though you will have to account for this virus mutating fast, those other countries having universal healthcare where the US does not, and that more testing also means that you can get people the help they need sooner - which in itself lowers the mortality rate).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 19, 2020, 12:29:39 am
The CCP has zero credibility with regard to its reporting on the outbreak. You might as well pull a number out of a hat.

You're seriously going to defend the claim that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? What if I said that it doesn't matter what NYC's numbers are? This is actually making me angry.

If you might as well pull a number out of a hat, it doesn't matter what China's numbers are. We know what they did.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on April 19, 2020, 01:35:34 am
The exact values of the numbers from China (or really any country) don't matter. At all.

What matters is the story the numbers tell, which can be broken down into two questions.

1. Generally speaking how many people are infected? (Where are you now?)
A) A lot (this is bad)
B) A few (this is better but not ideal)
C) None (this is what you want)

2. What is the rate of infection doing? (Where are you going?)
A) Growing (getting worse)
B) Staying the same
C) Decreasing (getting better)

You cannot hide the answers to these questions no matter how much underreporting or fudging is going on. If it's not under control it grows exponentially to the point it can't be hidden. If it is but a lot of people are infected, you can't hide the strain on the medical infrastructure. Thus if it's under control, it's obvious. So no, China (or anyone else) fudging or misreporting the numbers doesn't matter. They're either engaging in the testing, tracing, isolation, and mitigation necessary to control the outbreak, or they're not, and the rest of the world can see the results either way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 19, 2020, 02:03:41 am
You cannot hide the answers to these questions no matter how much underreporting or fudging is going on. If it's not under control it grows exponentially to the point it can't be hidden. If it is but a lot of people are infected, you can't hide the strain on the medical infrastructure. Thus if it's under control, it's obvious. So no, China (or anyone else) fudging or misreporting the numbers doesn't matter. They're either engaging in the testing, tracing, isolation, and mitigation necessary to control the outbreak, or they're not, and the rest of the world can see the results either way.

^^ that
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 19, 2020, 02:58:54 am
I notice you left out precisely the part of Hoover's post that I was addressing.

And yet despite noticing that you still failed to grasp that I did that deliberately to point out that you are arguing at cross purposes with everyone else. Because everyone else is arguing about the part I quoted. And you are insisting on arguing about a throwaway comment in the brackets which doesn't really matter. And then getting annoyed when people keep telling you that it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 19, 2020, 03:08:59 am
The problem with relying on "reputable" sources is that people will lie to you about who is reputable and who isn't.

And what is the fact that your sources are a) a conspiracy theorist known to spread lies and b) the campaign to reelect a president who has been caught lying and falsifying things numerous times supposed to tell me about your commitment to this whole "truth" thing?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 19, 2020, 04:17:31 am
Per-Capita is not a useful measure when it comes to Epidemiology. population density and infection rate are far more important.

Don't agree, figures always have to be adjusted for population size or they lose almost all relevance. Comparing the whole of US to lets say, Italy, is quite meaningless. New infection cases per capita or new deaths per capita would be the best measures to find actual hotspots. I think population density is especially meaningless as densely populated east Asian cities seem to handle this pandemic the best so far.

That said, compare New York state to European countries, adjusted for population as you should, and it likely makes the US response look even worse. So if anything, proper per capita figures should strenghten this point that *parts* of US are among the hardest hit in the world.


Here in Slovakia (country of 5.5 million) we are now at 44,276 total tested (doing ~3,000 tests per day), 1,161 confirmed infected (+72 new yesterday), 229 cured, 12 dead (+1).

EDIT: look at this map and click on incidence rate:

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 19, 2020, 05:15:35 am
I think population density is especially meaningless as densely populated east Asian cities seem to handle this pandemic the best so far.

...

You do realize that viruses spread through close contact and proximity with other people right? You also understand that population density is a rough measure of how close people are to eachother right? That's what makes per capita meaningless too - you've already touched upon this yourself, but here it goes: Viruses have a "patient zero", an origin of the outbreak. They don't affect the population equally at all, becuase it all depends on whether or not people had contact with people who have the virus.

East asian countries are handling this the best because they already have the infrastructure in place to handle a SARS-like outbreak. They were prepared, they know what they are doing. They did all the things that people said they should do - test early, enforce social distancing early.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 19, 2020, 05:59:09 am
You do realize that viruses spread through close contact and proximity with other people right? You also understand that population density is a rough measure of how close people are to eachother right? That's what makes per capita meaningless too - you've already touched upon this yourself, but here it goes: Viruses have a "patient zero", an origin of the outbreak. They don't affect the population equally at all, becuase it all depends on whether or not people had contact with people who have the virus.

Population density alone is only a very rough proxy to actual close contact between people, especially for wealthier cities with very well developed infrastructure. Indeed, social isolation used to be an issue in such places, and is now a virtue of sorts during a pandemic. Testing and social distancing works very well in such dense cities despite high population density. That is why I do not think it is that important of a factor.

Viruses do not affect the population equally but at some point you just have to take population size into account and divide by the number of people, no way around it. Surely you see that comparing lets say, number of cases from a small region to a huge country is utterly meaningless without adjusting for population size?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 19, 2020, 06:00:42 am
Don't agree, figures always have to be adjusted for population size or they lose almost all relevance. Comparing the whole of US to lets say, Italy, is quite meaningless.

Well done, you've basically said that China and India are automatically going to be 4 times better than the US and 20 times better than the UK even if they have the same number of cases and deaths. Even if the virus is spreading as fast in both countries. You've literally argued that at this point they need 2 million cases and 300,000 deaths before they can be considered to be doing as badly as the UK for instance.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 19, 2020, 06:11:30 am
Quote
Population density alone is only a very rough proxy to actual close contact between people, especially for wealthier cities with very well developed infrastructure.

You don't use public transport do you?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 19, 2020, 06:23:00 am
The sunday times investigated the UK's government response to the Coronavirus. (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh)

Sadly the Sunday Times operates behind a paywall so you can't see oh wait owen jones just took some screenshots damn (https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1251606098974474244.html).

Otherwise now would be the time to look into that 1 month free trail.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 19, 2020, 08:14:26 am
Well done, you've basically said that China and India are automatically going to be 4 times better than the US and 20 times better than the UK even if they have the same number of cases and deaths.

Well yes, I would say both China and India are significantly better off than the US (or certain US states) or UK as of now. Is that a controversial statement? I don't think so. Population size matters.

You don't use public transport do you?

Public transport is ubiquitous in dense east Asian cities and yet they did a great job.



Good twitter explainer thread by a virologist:

https://twitter.com/PeterKolchinsky/status/1251850557385572353
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 19, 2020, 08:24:08 am
Well yes, I would say both China and India are significantly better off than the US (or certain US states) or UK as of now. Is that a controversial statement? I don't think so. Population size matters.

Fine, but admit that India has done 5 times better than your country did at preventing the virus so far then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 19, 2020, 10:35:05 am
My god, many parts of India and all the third world countries will be overwhelmed by this stuff, and we won't know it for months on end... until pictures of hospitals crammed with people suffering from "pneumonia related diseases" surface on the international news.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 19, 2020, 10:52:26 am
The problem with relying on "reputable" sources is that people will lie to you about who is reputable and who isn't.

Hyper-skepticism with the truth will always lead you to post-truth bizarro-world shenanigans. Avoid it at all costs. Yes, "mainstream media" is always sketchy, to say the least, but to compare such sources negatively with bloggers, especially ones like Cernovich, is an error on value judgement that I can't even. It's the worst-level of truth heuristics that I have witnessed, and it has been very widespread for the past 20 years. Maybe some epideomologist could look into that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Aesaar on April 19, 2020, 11:14:04 am
"No sources are reputable therefore my sources can't be bad" is certainly the kind of galaxybrain hot take I expect from Trump fans.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on April 19, 2020, 03:30:36 pm
My god, many parts of India and all the third world countries will be overwhelmed by this stuff, and we won't know it for months on end... until pictures of hospitals crammed with people suffering from "pneumonia related diseases" surface on the international news.

While scarcity of healthcare facilities in these regions, low capability for proper hygienic interactions and possible weakening of people's organisms due to hunger and other illnesses works against them...

...there's also some other things to consider, like having most of people who belong to the most susceptible groups (the elderly and people with autoimmune or other diseases) being already "picked off" by other factors, or having much less people moving around within the country.
So I guess it depends on a case to case basis.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 19, 2020, 05:29:28 pm
The problem with relying on "reputable" sources is that people will lie to you about who is reputable and who isn't.

Hyper-skepticism with the truth will always lead you to post-truth bizarro-world shenanigans. Avoid it at all costs.
Amen.
Just an hour ago my dad accused me of believing in fairy tales because I told him that the virus being created or coming from a chinese lab was bull**** when he brought up the argument, to be fair when when he told me I might have overreacted (bad science is a bit of a berserk button for me) but apparently he can't accept that there isn't some direct human responsibility and his first thought that I was being naive rather than relying on actual sources.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 19, 2020, 05:57:08 pm
This theory that covid was engineered by human hands is getting increasingly popular, all the more so since several media outlets started to mention the virology labs in Wuhan.

This situation is getting more and more prevalent in France with people accusing skeptics to this theory of being blind. This and the maddened rush of hope towards hydroxychloroquine has me more than a little worried.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 19, 2020, 06:44:05 pm
Now, I've not read anything on the apparently silly Wuhan virology lab theory. Don't know anything about it, don't honestly care at this point.

But.

Playing devil's advocate here, but imagine there was a viral outbreak that originated in Atlanta. One could be forgiven for thinking it's a coincidence worth a look, no?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 19, 2020, 06:49:38 pm
Amen.
Just an hour ago my dad accused me of believing in fairy tales because I told him that the virus being created or coming from a chinese lab was bull**** when he brought up the argument, to be fair when when he told me I might have overreacted (bad science is a bit of a berserk button for me) but apparently he can't accept that there isn't some direct human responsibility and his first thought that I was being naive rather than relying on actual sources.


Scientists have taken a look and the theory is increasingly more ridiculous since research into the genome (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-not-human-made-lab-genetic-analysis-nature) has shown it basically came from nature. No need for the virus lab to do anything.

So now you have a source to give to your dad.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 19, 2020, 06:53:54 pm
Ah. Well, that answered my thing too...which it's really stupid that now is when the 'virology lab' theory is making the rounds in the nethers of the internet, now that there's strong evidence against it. But I guess the nitwits only just now figured out there's a lab there, so they'll work with what they've got . :nono:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 19, 2020, 07:36:17 pm
Ah. Well, that answered my thing too...which it's really stupid that now is when the 'virology lab' theory is making the rounds in the nethers of the internet, now that there's strong evidence against it. But I guess the nitwits only just now figured out there's a lab there, so they'll work with what they've got . :nono:

Just wait until you hear what they say about the news sources/scientists saying the virus came from nature.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 19, 2020, 08:12:28 pm
Pretty much.

Many of these people aren’t debating. They simply know they are right, whatever the logic or lack thereof, whatever the source, whatever the amount of scientific knowledge involved.

All hail the conspiracy theorists and the schizophrenia that follows.

Somebody get me my mace.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on April 19, 2020, 09:33:25 pm
Amen.
Just an hour ago my dad accused me of believing in fairy tales because I told him that the virus being created or coming from a chinese lab was bull**** when he brought up the argument, to be fair when when he told me I might have overreacted (bad science is a bit of a berserk button for me) but apparently he can't accept that there isn't some direct human responsibility and his first thought that I was being naive rather than relying on actual sources.


Scientists have taken a look and the theory is increasingly more ridiculous since research into the genome (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-not-human-made-lab-genetic-analysis-nature) has shown it basically came from nature. No need for the virus lab to do anything.

So now you have a source to give to your dad.
I have already sent him a few in Italian on my own after storming off, but thanks anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 19, 2020, 10:19:53 pm
Pretty much.

Many of these people aren’t debating. They simply know they are right, whatever the logic or lack thereof, whatever the source, whatever the amount of scientific knowledge involved.

All hail the conspiracy theorists and the schizophrenia that follows.

Ugh, ignorant morons (especially the morons who misspell "morons" as "morans") are a humongous pet peeve of mine. I feel for you, Starlord.

Somebody get me my mace.

Which mace? The pepper spray or the warhammer? I can see use for either one, depending on how uppity these conspiracy theorists get when they try to get in one's face. Hopefully the pepper spray will be sufficient deterrent so that we won't have to resort to the warhammer.

Amen.
Just an hour ago my dad accused me of believing in fairy tales because I told him that the virus being created or coming from a chinese lab was bull**** when he brought up the argument, to be fair when when he told me I might have overreacted (bad science is a bit of a berserk button for me) but apparently he can't accept that there isn't some direct human responsibility and his first thought that I was being naive rather than relying on actual sources.


Scientists have taken a look and the theory is increasingly more ridiculous since research into the genome (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-not-human-made-lab-genetic-analysis-nature) has shown it basically came from nature. No need for the virus lab to do anything.

So now you have a source to give to your dad.
I have already sent him a few in Italian on my own after storming off, but thanks anyway. ;)

I can think of a few choice words in Italian I'd like to say to your father too if he really thinks the coronavirus is a man-made bioweapon. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 19, 2020, 10:26:00 pm
The thing is I believe this stems deeper than misinformation: it’s a power play.

There is something deeply intoxicating about being the “only one who knows”, which might account for the uppity and conceited behaviour of these people. It places you in the place of a proverbial messiah.

That kind of brainwashing is strongly concomitant with the ones witnessed in sects or cults.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 19, 2020, 10:38:53 pm
The thing is I believe this stems deeper than misinformation: it’s a power play.

There is something deeply intoxicating about being the “only one who knows”, which might account for the uppity and conceited behaviour of these people. It places you in the place of a proverbial messiah.

That kind of brainwashing is strongly concomitant with the ones witnessed in sects or cults.

Yup, it's not for nothing that people are referring to the Republican Party as "the cult of Trump" nowadays. These guys were screaming that the coronavirus was a "Democrat [sic] hoax" back in January; now they're screaming that the coronavirus is a Chinese bioweapon as if they expect us to not remember that they said the coronavirus didn't even exist just a few short months ago. Only a cultist (or a moron, or a moron cultist) could have such memory gaps so huge you could drive an 18-wheeler through them. :rolleyes: :nono:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 19, 2020, 11:01:01 pm
Except I think that this has been going on even before that whole current fiasco with either trump or covid. This will to remain into obscurantism under the argument of conspiracy has been very present even before then.

The goofiest conspiracy theories have gained momentum alongside the growth of the internet but even they were still present before to a lesser extent: creationism, vaccines being poison, chem trails by planes, HIV being fake or man made (rings a bell anyone?), flat earthers, moon landing, Shoah deniers, etc...

What is happening now is a continuation of what was then, with the difference of it being more exacerbated and polarised.

I mean come on, if people knew their history they would realise that the WHO was what eradicated smallpox in 81 while the Cold War was still a thing. Suspending funds because scientists in WHO were wrong (that’s the thing with science: we are often wrong) is kind of like toying with a live grenade: something’s bound to happen and chances are you’ll be sorry when it does.

Not to mention the glorious ****you message this leaves to the rest of us worldwide who might actually give a **** about what competent people have to say for a change.

Sorry: we are skirting around covid on this one.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Ghostavo on April 20, 2020, 06:28:04 am
In an effort to bring more light-hearted news (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-18/denmark-extends-business-aid-to-increase-spending-by-15-billion) to this thread.

Quote
The government also said that companies which pay out dividends, buy back own shares or are registered in tax havens won’t be eligible for any of the aid programs, which now amount to a total of 400 billion kroner, when including loans and guarantees.

Poland also seems to have done something similar to this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 20, 2020, 11:46:09 am
So you're the UK government and you ****ed up. So off course, the response is to say the experts said very different things from what they actually said (https://nitter.net/richardhorton1/status/1252183975893884933).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 20, 2020, 12:30:42 pm
Unsurprising. We're led by a PM that played down the severity of Corona while boasting that he shook hands with patients in hospital. He caught the virus and wound up in the icu as a "precaution". Not even Trump managed that.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 20, 2020, 01:30:29 pm
Unsurprising. We're led by a PM that played down the severity of Corona while boasting that he shook hands with patients in hospital. He caught the virus and wound up in the icu as a "precaution". Not even Trump managed that.

Yeah, well, this virus has only just gotten started. Wait a few days (or a couple of weeks at most) and Trump will overtake Boris in the Worst Possible Executive At Worst Possible Time Sweepstakes. Hell, at least Boris seems to understand that opening the economy too quickly will just allow the virus to peak again. (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52351982) That's something that Trump can't seem to understand or even care to understand. And it's something the Republican Party, with its shibboleth about government always being a bad thing, absolutely refuses to understand.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 20, 2020, 02:12:55 pm
Fine, but admit that India has done 5 times better than your country did at preventing the virus so far then.

I surely admit that India is significantly better off for now. I wouldn't count on it in the long term, tough. I think it is mostly just luck due to this pandemic hitting more internationally connected parts of the world first. Corona is a trickle-down disease.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on April 21, 2020, 08:54:53 am
Governor Lee will not be extending Tennessee's stay-at-home order beyond April 30th.

Pretty sure that I'm going to soon have to choose between having a job to return to or minimizing my risk of exposure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 21, 2020, 09:09:50 am
****ing. Ghouls. (https://www.newsweek.com/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-fox-news-tucker-carlson-1499106?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1587463924)

Quote
Patrick went on: "There are more important things than living, and that's saving this country for my children and my grandchildren and saving this country for all of us.

"I don't want to die, nobody wants to die but man we have got to take some risk and get back in the game and get this country back up and running," he told the Tucker Carlson Tonight host.

There are two ways out of the lockdown. One involves saying "ahh, **** it, who cares" and reopening everything while there is still not enough testing and absolutely no vaccine or known-good cure.
The other is realizing that companies are less important than people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Enioch on April 21, 2020, 09:19:04 am
The other is realizing that companies are less important than people.

That is not something you realize

That is something you decide.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 21, 2020, 09:20:33 am
It's really a false dichtomy isn't it? It's not like companies aren't going to suffer from the deaths of millions.

There's a better way incidentaly.

What if you just murdered the 400 richest Americans and took their money? You end up with 2.9 trillion dollars, which should be enough to jumpstart the economy after the lockdown ends, and you end up with far less dead overall.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 21, 2020, 09:21:34 am
Keep going....... I'm subscribing to this idea.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 21, 2020, 09:22:27 am
If that's not enough, kill the next 9,600. You end up with boatloads of money, but you still end up with far less dead then the projected amount of deaths as a result of just letting the virus go on.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 21, 2020, 09:27:47 am
The top 1% of Americans own a combined wealth of 34.5 trillion dollars, which is more then the entire US debt. It's about 3 million people, which is incidentally also the amount of people that the Trump administration projected would die if no measures were taken. If you kill them, take all their money, and use the money to rebuild the entire US economy after a lockdown, you end up with the survivors in a much better position then before this crisis!

I mean if you're going to take measures that kill lots of people you might as well take care of the survivors right?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Enioch on April 21, 2020, 09:30:42 am
I am pretty sure your intention is not to advocate real-world violence against a very specific group of people.  :doubt:

Because I'm pretty sure that would be against the site rules.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 21, 2020, 09:32:25 am
Ofc. killing millions of people to save millions of people is probably a bit too much, but thankfully thanks to the economics of wealth distribution you only have to kill a very small amount of people to create a massive effect.

I am pretty sure your intention is not to advocate real-world violence against a very specific group of people.  :doubt:

Because I'm pretty sure that would be against the site rules.

Off course not, I wouldn't suggest taking any action that would kill vast swathes of people in order to make the lives of a larger swathe of people better. That would be inhumane.

I'm just pointing out that my method is far more effective then the method proposed by the GOP Texas Lieutenant Governor.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 21, 2020, 09:37:59 am
Take intent into consideration too: would you kill bill gates right now despite the medical foundation he set up?

Incidentally, I seem to remember in one of the protestor’s photos in Texas in this thread that Bill gates was targeted for treason, alongside Fauci. Go figure...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 21, 2020, 09:41:30 am
Quote
Take intent into consideration too: would you kill bill gates right now despite the medical foundation he set up?

off course! After all, we don't need him to run his medical foundation. Instead, we can give *all* his money to the medical foundation rather then the paltry amount of money he gives to it so he can sleep at night! Also, viruses don't take intent into consideration, why should we?

According to current US stats roughly 5 percent of the people who contracted Corona have died, so we save five times as many people by just keeping the lockdown in place with the money we stole from the rich!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 21, 2020, 09:43:15 am
And if you think that is entirely extreme then yes, you are right!

But so is the notion of ending the lockdown to send people back to work, corona be damned. The whole point is, off course, to put the comments of people who feel the economy is more important then human lives into perspective. Just going out there and letting people contract the virus is just as a discriminative method of killing people as killing the wealthy, becuase the virus is going to be contracted not by people like the GOP governor who proposed it (since he *can* stay at home and still do his work and gets free medical care as part of his position) but the workers on the factory floor (who can't afford medical care).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 21, 2020, 10:05:15 am
NYT has a simple yet somewhat terrifying article contrasting the amount of reported deaths in a country to the reported corona deaths, and noting that the former is far higher then the average + reported corona deaths would suggest. (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html?)

Quote
The data is limited and, if anything, excess deaths are underestimated because not all deaths have been reported.

FUN!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 21, 2020, 01:18:42 pm
Speaking of not having the cure be worse than the disease:

Let's talk about hydroxychloroquine (https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/04/21/more-deaths-no-benefit-malaria-drug-va-virus-study.html).

Quote
Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at Veterans Health Administration medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.

About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 21, 2020, 01:40:40 pm
But did they take the "right dose" of 500mg?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 21, 2020, 01:59:48 pm
Hmm. Was half afraid of that. Hydroxychloroquine here (in France) has literally put people in a frenzy, with many of them believing that the cure works (to be fair, Dr Raoult is a very strong authority in infectious diseases, but I was somewhat weary as to how he dragged the whole thing in front of the media), and that the reason the cure is not here is due to the government and/or big pharma acting against it.

On the other hand, if that was actually recommended by the Chinese health practitioners at some point, who are well acquainted with SARS, then I’d like to understand why.

Also, trick question, but when were the cohorts administered with hydroxychloroquine? I believe it was mentioned that past a certain threshold (namely heavy lung scarification) it would be useless,  but don’t take my word for it.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 21, 2020, 06:41:17 pm
Take intent into consideration too: would you kill bill gates right now despite the medical foundation he set up?

I bought Windows ME. Not only would I suggest we kill him, I'd pull the trigger myself. :p
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 21, 2020, 06:48:34 pm
... I can’t defend that!

Sorry bill, you’re on your own.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on April 21, 2020, 07:25:31 pm
I think in 50 years looking back at all this junk, the denial-ism about pandemics, the environment, the huge resurgence of nationalism, tribalism and intolerance, the referendum is going to be, "This was avoidable, but most people just didn't care."

As someone who studies history, we frequently mock people who lived in medieval times or prior ages as ignorant. And I think in some ways in the past 100 years, we've shown in large parts of the world we're still just as bad off or even worse.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on April 21, 2020, 07:43:10 pm
I think in 50 years looking back at all this junk, the denial-ism about pandemics, the environment, the huge resurgence of nationalism, tribalism and intolerance, the referendum is going to be, "This was avoidable, but most people just didn't care."

As someone who studies history, we frequently mock people who lived in medieval times or prior ages as ignorant. And I think in some ways in the past 100 years, we've shown in large parts of the world we're still just as bad off or even worse.

I've genuinely lost almost all faith in representative democracy at this point.  It only works if the voting populace is reasonably well-informed and has a vested interest in the betterment of society.  And, well, ****ing look at us.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on April 21, 2020, 08:00:49 pm
My employer has announced that they're reopening on the fourth.

Profits over people.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Aesaar on April 21, 2020, 08:26:58 pm
I've genuinely lost almost all faith in representative democracy at this point.  It only works if the voting populace is reasonably well-informed and has a vested interest in the betterment of society.  And, well, ****ing look at us.

I completely lost faith in the American system at the federal level back in January (and I'm pretty sure the upcoming election will only reinforce that), but this crisis has made me feel pretty good about Canada.  Our government has been doing a pretty decent job.  Not perfect by any means, but not bad either.

As someone who studies history, we frequently mock people who lived in medieval times or prior ages as ignorant. And I think in some ways in the past 100 years, we've shown in large parts of the world we're still just as bad off or even worse.

My history studies have taught me one thing above all others: Technology may have changed, but people have not.  People are exactly the same now as they were 2000 years ago.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: perihelion on April 21, 2020, 09:13:10 pm
My employer has announced that they're reopening on the fourth.

Profits over people.
I’m sorry. That’s an awful choice to be faced with. Any chance of them letting you work remotely?

I have a feeling I will be as well shortly.  At least my wife and kids can handle all of their school and work from home because Texas decided not to reopen school campuses until next school year. But I doubt I’ll be allowed to work from home for much longer.

It’s madness. When they finally have to face reality and put the lock down back in place, the damage in terms of dead bodies AND financial ruin will be even worse than if we just keep the doors closed long enough to let this run it’s course.

The idea that I could be turned into a vector to infect my family despite all the care we’ve taken so far is terrifying and monstrous!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on April 21, 2020, 11:55:27 pm
The governor of a neighboring state made a point of noting that they'd "only closed schools until the 15th of May thus far."  As a teacher, even IF it was safe to go back...what the flying **** would be the point of having the kids back all of 2 or 3 weeks before summer break starts?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 22, 2020, 12:15:04 am
I would make a point as teachers to notify all janitors in schools to double up on hygiene especially in lavatories and public rooms (lots of hydrogels and hankies if you can spare them). Schools are notorious Petri dishes.

My parent is returning to duty as a teacher on the 11th of may here in France. I share the sentiment that this is stupid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 22, 2020, 12:43:29 am
People in the majority are quite fickle, having been around the block a few times and worked closely with people from most backgrounds and cultural heritages,  you get good ones and bad ones, but I genuinely believe that most of them that make it through will feel a bit invincible and be more prone to taking risks in life with little justification.     Like when you pass a driving test and have false confidence.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on April 22, 2020, 01:00:47 am
I would make a point as teachers to notify all janitors in schools to double up on hygiene especially in lavatories and public rooms (lots of hydrogels and hankies if you can spare them). Schools are notorious Petri dishes.

My parent is returning to duty as a teacher on the 11th of may here in France. I share the sentiment that this is stupid.
Exactly.  I inevitably get several rounds of colds/sniffles during even a normal school year.  Fortunately our state's governor shut things down for good a few weeks back, so even as conditions improve we'll stay safely home.  Admittedly it really sucks for the seniors, though.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on April 22, 2020, 08:49:35 am
As a teacher, even IF it was safe to go back...what the flying **** would be the point of having the kids back all of 2 or 3 weeks before summer break starts?

Do note that this is how the school system works. It's not about letting people learn and improve, it's about stamping a tick inside the minimal total amount of "days/hours present" boxes so the administration can pat themselves on the back because statistics say they have achieved education.

I believe people can both effectively learn and work in their homes, I really do. And for reasons other and possibly bigger than resistance to infection spread. But that would need gigantic changes both in systems and mentality, and will probably be a matter of decades, still. But hopefully setting the things in motion in this regard is going to be one of the good things we can take out of this pandemic.


In other news... The US financial relief program gets, obviously, a propaganda response that is loved by the people...

...but then in practice, it turns out the PPP program is basically a way for the government to pump cash into banks who in turn pump it into the most indebted companies (Louis Rossmann's video)...

...and oh, guess what, that makes the program run out of money nearly instantly.

And it turns out the New York's mayor thinks that the best way of enforcing social distancing is to literally become a Soviet state in the middle of the US (https://mobile.twitter.com/NYCMayor/status/1251496378372632577)?

YouTube links stripped.  See the previous posts about dissemination of video from non-credible sources.  - MP-Ryan (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96228.msg1895976#msg1895976)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on April 22, 2020, 09:38:12 am
My employer has announced that they're reopening on the fourth.

Profits over people.
I’m sorry. That’s an awful choice to be faced with. Any chance of them letting you work remotely?

No chance.  I run a big, chunky industrial machine that takes 480V AC input.  I couldn't run it at home, even if I could get it here.

Like you, I'm worried as much or moreso about being a vector of infection for my family than the direct impact of getting infected myself.  My parents are in the "high risk" age demographic, and I'd quite like to not kill them.

But stock prices matter more than the lives of a few retirees, so damn the curve!  Full steam ahead!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 22, 2020, 10:58:31 am
And it turns out the New York's mayor thinks that the best way of enforcing social distancing is to literally become a Soviet state in the middle of the US (https://nitter.net/NYCMayor/status/1251496378372632577)?

Can you explain how this is comparable to declaring martial law to supress political thought?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 22, 2020, 01:02:08 pm
Regardless of how the right wing is pushing for the line to go upwards, regardless of the cost in lives, despite all the Moloch worshipping that is disgustingly being played out in all right wing slash fascist newscasts, narratives and public office statements, from this country or that state or whatsoever, I also think that the economy cannot be forever shut down.

All of this conversation is skewed towards simplicity rather than truth. I'm pretty sure most people both think that 1, we should definitely quarantine while we have no means of protecting ourselves and keep vector barriers between workers, and 2, we can't stay home forever and ruin our economy to the point of destroying the entire society in a kind of a major depression the likes of which there is *no historical record*.

I think this is pretty consensual in everyone, but somehow the discussion has polarized into 2 major talking points: Either the economy can't "open up" because that's "murder", period, no caveats whatsoever, or the economy has to "open up at all costs and who cares if some elder people die, you apes wanna live forever?", and people keep bashing each other with these things instead of discussing the ways in which we can do both, that is, open up the economy with baby steps and always guaranteeing means of protection for every opened industry, and if some revolutionary steps need be made in some places, then so be it. This is the discussion we should be having, because the two other polarized speeches seem completely unrealistic to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 22, 2020, 01:35:35 pm
But the discussion is already geared towards that? The whole point of having a quarantine now is to slowly re open things in the future when things die down. We're already seeing a bunch of european countries doing this (and possibly elsewhere, but I'm not keeping track of everywhere). The Netherlands is still very much in the mode of "People first, economy later". Children are slowly being sent back to school not becuase that would keep the economy going (it wouldn't!) but because it saves those children (and their parents) from the effects of being stuck at home all the time. It has now slowly become more clear that children are hardly affected by covid, so that's why those measures could be taken.

The discussion in the us is "polarized" becuase the US states that are affected at the moment don't seem at all ready for those baby steps. The discussion is not between "we can't open up the economy" and "we should open up the economy", it's whether or not that should be done right now. And it shouldn't. I don't exactly see the governors who enacted these measures in the US call for their constituents to start eating the rich.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 22, 2020, 04:36:30 pm
All of this conversation is skewed towards simplicity rather than truth. I'm pretty sure most people both think that 1, we should definitely quarantine while we have no means of protecting ourselves and keep vector barriers between workers, and 2, we can't stay home forever and ruin our economy to the point of destroying the entire society in a kind of a major depression the likes of which there is *no historical record*.

Food, shelter, power -- all these essentials are available, because obviously keeping their supply secure through the shutdown has been the first priority. There is no reason that extending the shutdown indefinitely would "destroy society", except that society has been captured by the capitalist economy of infinite growth and the capital class think they may as well destroy it if it's not making their stock portfolios go up.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: IronBeer on April 22, 2020, 05:42:59 pm
Most tissues in a healthy organism do not grow indefinitely. They either stop growing upon maturity (nervous system, skeleton) or grow to replace losses (epithelium, blood).

There is a particular term for tissues that focus only own perpetual growth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 23, 2020, 03:50:23 am
Joshua, your reasonable opinion wasn't on my sights, instead just look at the other two comments below yours, to see where the derailing towards useless pedantic narcissistic dribble immediately goes to. If they were politically inclined the other way, they would be rabbling about how this is all facilitating a communist takeover of the world, or some other inane thing. I do think, Joshua, that your thoughts are where the majority of people lie, but nowhere near where the majority of speech lies.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 23, 2020, 05:59:03 am
So it's been proven, Tucker Carlson is less likely to get you killed than Sean Hannity (https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/fox-news-hosts-have-measurable-effect-on-covid-cases-study-finds/).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 23, 2020, 10:55:49 am
that moment when a group that literally calls itself "Insane Clown Posse" is more responsible than many ostensibly serious politicians (https://metalinjection.net/news/icp-cancel-gathering-2020-we-refuse-to-risk-even-one-juggalo-life)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 23, 2020, 11:09:04 am
All of this conversation is skewed towards simplicity rather than truth. I'm pretty sure most people both think that 1, we should definitely quarantine while we have no means of protecting ourselves and keep vector barriers between workers, and 2, we can't stay home forever and ruin our economy to the point of destroying the entire society in a kind of a major depression the likes of which there is *no historical record*.

Food, shelter, power -- all these essentials are available, because obviously keeping their supply secure through the shutdown has been the first priority. There is no reason that extending the shutdown indefinitely would "destroy society", except that society has been captured by the capitalist economy of infinite growth and the capital class think they may as well destroy it if it's not making their stock portfolios go up.

You can't be serious. I am all for shutdown at this time, the negative effects of accumulated economic damage from the shutdown are very likely lower compared to the potential negatives from opening up too soon and letting the virus run rampant. But that is the situation today. Damage from economic shutdown increases as time goes on, potentially without bounds while damage from this virus is bounded. Indefinite shutdown is simply not an option, at some point the suffering caused by economic crisis of unprecedented magnitude WILL outweight the potential suffering caused by the virus. At that point the people would likely depose any government that would want to continue the shutdown, so it is not even a realistic possibility.

And this is not about economic systems. Any system would have large issues when faced with the kind of reduction in production as prolonged shutdown would cause. No system can conjure up wealth from thin air, wealth is created by people working and factories running.

Perhaps you are right that food, shelter, power and other bare necessities could be kept on for far longer than other things, altrough I would not count on it - such large systemic shocks to the economy that trump even the great depression would have unpredictable consequences in all sectors (and all over the globe).

But how isn't a society reduced to nothing more than bare necessities a ruined, destroyed society? It most definitely is. The economy is obviously FAR larger than just food, water and shelter. And no, it is not "muh capitalism" that pushes for this, it is the people, ordinary consumers like you and me.

EDIT: and as for infinite growth, obviously that is impossible however who knows how much growth is actually possible? Nobody knows for sure. Maybe humanity is destined to create a post-human galaxy group spanning society with trillions of individuals living for trillions of years until heat death of the universe. Maybe our growth has barely even begun.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on April 23, 2020, 11:18:04 am
The number of active COVID-19 cases in Tennessee is still rising.  If I get called back to work on May 4th (as my employer is currently planning), then I'm going to quit.  We either won't be past the peak or we'll be barely past the peak, and that's not the time to try to restart everything.  The peak is the point of maximum risk of exposure.

I won't sacrifice my parents for the benefit of capital.  I couldn't forgive myself if I got them infected in exchange for $16/hr.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Solatar on April 23, 2020, 01:08:54 pm
The number of active COVID-19 cases in Tennessee is still rising.  If I get called back to work on May 4th (as my employer is currently planning), then I'm going to quit.  We either won't be past the peak or we'll be barely past the peak, and that's not the time to try to restart everything.  The peak is the point of maximum risk of exposure.

I won't sacrifice my parents for the benefit of capital.  I couldn't forgive myself if I got them infected in exchange for $16/hr.

I live in Tennessee, and I'm supposed to go back to dine-in food service at a restaurant May 1st (in Sumner county, with all the infected nursing homes). I'm lucky to be in a financial position to be able to choose not to go back and risk it, but it's very obvious Tennessee is prioritizing business needs over anybody's safety.

EDIT: Scratch that, they're opening for dine in on Monday.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on April 23, 2020, 04:16:42 pm
I live in Tennessee, and I'm supposed to go back to dine-in food service at a restaurant May 1st

Dine-in food service? You mean quite possibly the most hazardous and least essential form of food service?

This is why there's a debate of "stay closed" vs "full open", because the people in charge here can't see any middle ground. What it sounds like they're planning in Germany makes sense: do it slowly by steps, when they're sure it's safe.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 23, 2020, 04:22:22 pm
Everything is red vs blue, even public health and safety. Oh, and only one can be right.

And there are things more important than living... (https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/493879-texas-lt-governor-on-reopening-state-there-are-more-important-things) like proving the other side wrong.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 23, 2020, 05:19:35 pm
Everything is red vs blue, even public health and safety. Oh, and only one can be right.

And there are things more important than living... (https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/493879-texas-lt-governor-on-reopening-state-there-are-more-important-things) like proving the other side wrong.

I can't find the link, but I remember an article about one of the lockdown protests where one of the protesters carried a sign saying "Your health is not as important as my rights." When I hear about that ****, it makes my blood boil. Just who dafuq are these entitled c*nts who think they can demand the rest of us to die for their convenience? If I want to sacrifice myself for my principles, that's my business, but nobody has the right to demand my health or my death for principles their principles. These morons need to be told that straight up to their faces as many times as necessary until they get it through their thick skulls that they really are morally inferior and need to change for all our sakes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: karajorma on April 23, 2020, 08:09:18 pm
In the middle of a pandemic is exactly the right time to fire an expert on vaccines because he won't back up the god-emperor's bull**** on unproven drugs (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52400721)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 23, 2020, 08:22:51 pm
PSA: Do not inject disinfectant into your lungs. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtgVxGkrX1Y) Unfortunately I couldn't find a better channel than MSNBC, but Trump speaks for himself.

Quote
And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute, and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside, or, or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that. So that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds, sounds interesting to me.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on April 23, 2020, 08:51:50 pm
And we made fun of Nero wanting to make his horse a senator.
Please, please explain to me why this man deserves your support and admiration. I know literal children who could do a better job.
For all the rightful criticism H.W. Bush got, the catastrophic errors in judgement, a lot of people had really positive things to say about him as a person. From Michelle Obama to Bill Clinton. He was a human being you could talk to.
This is... nuts. It's why despite the fact I have some religious convictions and center political beliefs, I can't endorse anyone in the Republic party. Maybe ever again. They're complicit in this PT Barnum circus.
But nope, GOTTA BEAT THOSE LIBS. Can't lose a single election or learn how to change. Just get even dumber!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 23, 2020, 08:53:46 pm
PSA: Do not inject disinfectant into your lungs. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtgVxGkrX1Y) Unfortunately I couldn't find a better channel than MSNBC, but Trump speaks for himself.

Quote
And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute, and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside, or, or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that. So that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds, sounds interesting to me.

JFC, this moron is actually suggesting injecting people with bleach to try to get rid of the coronavirus. I'll never forgive anyone who voted for Trump. Anybody who thought, even for a moment, that this clueless, childish, narcisistic brat-in-an-old-man's-body would make a good president should have their ass removed with a spoon and then have the bloody giblets force-fed to them.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 24, 2020, 12:47:13 am
I think I've finally managed to wrap my mind around how stupid this is. I was in a desensitized/dreamlike state at first, so I didn't fully grasp the idiocy. "Does a tremendous number on the lungs", no kidding.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on April 24, 2020, 01:35:31 am
10 years ago if you asked Republicans if there would ever be one of their party who would be dumb enough to think injecting cleaning solution into your lungs to fight a virus was a good idea, they'd laugh it off as some insane late night comedy joke. Insulting to their party's dignity.
And yet he still has 80% Republican support.
The frog is well and truly boiled now. It's just a little skeleton in there. Wondering why oh why it's so completely dead. 
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 24, 2020, 01:37:51 am
Drinking bleach to own the libs.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 24, 2020, 01:54:38 am
Can't get lung infections if you have no lungs

this is some stable genius galaxy brain ****, i wonder how much BRAIN-FORCE you have to be on to come up with it


The obvious retort for you Goobers and jr2s out there is to claim that Trump was just making a joke, having a bit of a laugh, you know. The problem, as always with any attempts to exonerate Trump for saying incredibly stupid things, is that he wasn't. In that clip, Trumps bull****ting about using disinfectant is in the middle of some bull****ting about using UV light emitters in the body, an idea which I can't honestly claim to have an opinion on. In the same tone that he was talking about that maybe not entirely stupid idea, he was talking about disinfectant in the lung. If one of those suggestions is a joke and the other isn't, how the **** can you tell?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 24, 2020, 02:56:29 am
Impartial assassination wishes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 24, 2020, 03:32:01 am
Impartial assassination wishes.

This sounds like a problem that'll (dis)solve itself.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 24, 2020, 04:14:17 am
The obvious retort for you Goobers and jr2s out there is to claim that Trump was just making a joke, having a bit of a laugh, you know. The problem, as always with any attempts to exonerate Trump for saying incredibly stupid things, is that he wasn't. In that clip, Trumps bull****ting about using disinfectant is in the middle of some bull****ting about using UV light emitters in the body, an idea which I can't honestly claim to have an opinion on. In the same tone that he was talking about that maybe not entirely stupid idea, he was talking about disinfectant in the lung. If one of those suggestions is a joke and the other isn't, how the **** can you tell?


They're attributing it to interpretation malfeasance (or stupidity) by those darn liber'ls
https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2020/04/23/fact-check-no-trump-didnt-propose-injecting-people-with-disinfectant/

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWW6dQgXYAALcs5.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 24, 2020, 04:50:06 am
My head hurts.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 24, 2020, 04:54:57 am
My head hurts.

That's just the gas from the lights
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: theperfectdrugsk on April 24, 2020, 05:01:16 am
In the middle of a pandemic is exactly the right time to fire an expert on vaccines because he won't back up the god-emperor's bull**** on unproven drugs (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52400721)

Not fired, reassigned, and it seems plenty of folks were unhappy with this guy long before anything having to go with covid. I suggest reading the Politico article linked within, as it goes much more in-depth.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 24, 2020, 05:03:27 am
They're attributing it to interpretation malfeasance (or stupidity) by those darn liber'ls
https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2020/04/23/fact-check-no-trump-didnt-propose-injecting-people-with-disinfectant/

That's some amazing ex-post-facto rationalization to cover up the words the President clearly used in the press conference.

I mean, ****, Trump asks if there is "something like that... by ... injection ... inside or ... almost a cleaning, cos you see, it gets in the lungs"
They even ackknowledge that those words were said! But then, the twist: when Trump talks about "injecting", he actually means "applying to external surfaces"! Such a genius. Such a titan of wordplay, that he can make a word that refers to one concept and use them in a way that means something completely different!

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 24, 2020, 05:39:58 am
But which also would *still be catostrophically bad*!
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 24, 2020, 06:12:42 am
I mean it's true that his demented ramblings are talking about irrigating the lungs with disinfectant rather than 'injecting' it into tissue per se, but that does not actually make it any less insane and stupid.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 24, 2020, 06:23:43 am
From Breitbart's hilarious "fact check":

Quote
When ABC News’ Jonathan Karl asked Dr. Bryant about whether the president had proposed injecting a person with “bleach and isopropyl alcohol” later, Trump clarified that “It wouldn’t be through injection,” and that he was talking about “cleaning, sterilization of an area,” and about applying the disinfectant to “a stationary object.”

If your lungs are stationary, then you're dead. Or, as The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/apr/23/coronavirus-us-live-house-484bn-crisis-aid-package-trump-cuomo-latest-news-updates) puts it:

Quote
Note: If you are not a stationary object and are, in fact, a person, please follow medical advice and do not inject disinfectant into your body.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MP-Ryan on April 24, 2020, 09:31:23 am
I am appalled that actual medical experts are having to spend previous time explaining to the public that the President's comments that maybe UV light or disinfectants can be used in the body are at best nonsensical and at worst dangerous suggestions to an increasingly gullible group of Trump supporters who lack critical thinking ability.

Sorry, I'm breaking my rule about political participation but this is outrageously bad and dangerous commentary in the public sphere that needs to be condemned as loudly, quickly, and firmly as possible.  There is no defending it; all you need to do is listen to the words coming out of his mouth to realize that he has no idea how the body works and is flailing to show progress, and there is GOING TO BE at least one person who hears this commentary and decides drinking or breathing in bleach is a great idea (https://twitter.com/NC5PhilWilliams/status/1253487743046385670?s=20).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: IronBeer on April 24, 2020, 12:05:24 pm
Here I could go on and on about the lung biology and how to kill pathogens and whatever, but frankly I just don't have the ****ing patience any more.

I'm so, so tired.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 24, 2020, 12:24:38 pm
This is why every population of every nation needs more doctors/health researchers.

This is why education needs a massive boost nowadays
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: GhylTarvoke on April 24, 2020, 01:24:45 pm
The obvious retort for you Goobers and jr2s out there is to claim that Trump was just making a joke, having a bit of a laugh, you know. The problem, as always with any attempts to exonerate Trump for saying incredibly stupid things, is that he wasn't.

Well, The E's prediction was borne out. Trump is claiming that it was sarcasm. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/24/disinfectant-injection-coronavirus-trump/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 24, 2020, 01:52:23 pm
I personally won’t shed tears over people dying when following such ludicrous ideas. If you are dumb enough to ingest bleach in the first place, then consider your status in the human gene pool revoked. No regrets.

On the other hand, I’d advise parents to shield their kids from those same ludicrous ideas: they get around from friend to friend, as well as through social media platforms and schools. I can’t emphasise that enough: WATCH YOUR KIDS! They at least have the excuse of not knowing any better.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 24, 2020, 01:55:20 pm
Caption challenge!
(https://nitter.net/pic/https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FEWYOck0WAAAC2UG.jpg%3Alarge)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 24, 2020, 02:01:58 pm
I personally won’t shed tears over people dying when following such ludicrous ideas. If you are dumb enough to ingest bleach in the first place, then consider your status in the human gene pool revoked. No regrets.

I personally disagree with this. There's been plenty of work done to make people see Trump as an unquestionable authority, and I'd lay the primary responsibility of that to the people who did that and to Trump himself.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 24, 2020, 02:05:56 pm
Joshua, as an example: if I told you to go stay underwater indefinitely and that said action would not impair your continued ability to breathe, would you?

A bit of common sense does go a long way.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 24, 2020, 02:31:17 pm
When life imitates satire... (https://local.theonion.com/man-just-buying-one-of-every-cleaning-product-in-case-t-1842493766?utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=Twitter&utm_content=Main&utm_campaign=SF)

You're gonna wanna note the date on that Onion article that jokingly discussed a man buying up cleaning products just in case Trump announces they are a Covid-19 cure.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 24, 2020, 03:10:37 pm
Hopefully this guy doesn’t have kids.

Even more hopefully this guy doesn’t have sick kids.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 24, 2020, 03:33:10 pm
Joshua, as an example: if I told you to go stay underwater indefinitely and that said action would not impair your continued ability to breathe, would you?

if I trusted you more then I trusted myself?

Yes.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 24, 2020, 03:37:05 pm
Off course that might not be entirely fair. I live in a mental health clinic for a reason. I am, if nothing else, a vulnerable person.

Doesn't make it okay.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 24, 2020, 04:11:03 pm
See, that’s what education is for:

You will trust a medical doctor over your own assessment regarding your health because said doctor has experience and knowledge in the form of an MD.

What qualifications has trump produced that allows him to come to the glorious conclusion that we should all be injected with detergent?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 24, 2020, 04:12:54 pm
He is the president of the united states.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on April 24, 2020, 04:25:50 pm
That is not a qualification.

He possesses no MD, or Health oriented PhD or MSc or even bachelor.

Therefore he cannot make any statement on anything health related.

Despite his status as president of the United States, trump possesses no qualifications in that field and is therefore unknowledgeable and ignorant.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on April 24, 2020, 09:09:06 pm
It's difficult to overstate how quickly political norms in the US have collapsed since the Obama administration. This started with Mitch McConnel and his party just "deciding" to break with tradition and not begin the confirmation process for Obama's pick for the Supreme Court. You know, like a normal sane government would. There's supposed to be compromise, there's supposed to be interest in the common good. It was never perfect, but there's a ton of gentlemen's agreements in the Constitution that aren't "laws" but are supposed to be respected.
Now the Senate is acting like the Mafia for the Executive branch, which is the exact opposite of the conceptual job of the Senate!
So you are correct in that more people than Trump are at fault. He's just a figure head at this point, the Emperor's advisors who proclaim that the Emperor's newest robes are the finest in the realm when he's stark naked are more at fault.
And keep in mind, Trump never actually expected to win. He won off of general resentment of real economic concerns, a fantastically unpopular democratic rival, and the Republican party CAN'T get rid of him in a pure power calculus without admitting they were wrong. So whenever he gutter dives even deeper, they have no choice but to follow him lower.
All it takes is a look back to see how many Republics switched flags from, "God this guy is an idiot," before the election, to "HAIL CAESAR!" afterwards. Because a large part of the base loves Trump's image, as crass as it is.
Much now like now how there's a curious number of Republicans who believe now that Iraq was a "mistake" and yet those same voices were *somehow* nowhere to be heard during the lead up to the actual invasion...
They'll turn on Trump eventually, they always do. It's just a question of how much damage gets done until then.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 25, 2020, 04:32:07 am
Never trust a leader just because they hold the rank.  Following orders safely and trust are two different things....   Trump didn't get to where he is on his own merits,  he got over 400 million from his father's buainess interests and that's just one of the leg ups he had.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 25, 2020, 06:10:44 am
I am aware of that fact. Not everyone is. Hell, Trump seems to think that him having the presidency gives him all the authority in the world - wouldn't doubt that the people who only get the propaganda don't think differently.

Trump now saying that it "was a joke" makes this whole thing worse in two ways: First, it undercuts Breitbart pushing the "He didn't actually say that" shtick.

Secondly it ignores that people do take him literally. I totally agree with you that people really shouldn't be hanging off his lips like they do, and we could discuss for days why people do that. But that doesn't change the fact that they do. Hell, Trump is fully aware of this fact: See also his quote about being able to shoot people and get away with it becuase his supporters love him so much. He is aware that people take him literally and trust him implicitly. And hell, all the nationalism that people are being spoonfed with since birth is creating a system where people are trained to implicitly trust "their" government.

Or to put it succinctly: I question how much personal responsibilty victims of indoctrination can really have.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: mjn.mixael on April 25, 2020, 09:16:19 am
There's also a brewing issue here where Trump thinks he can supersede State Governeror stay-at-home orders just because he's the president when the American Constitution explicitly says otherwise. So of course there are reports of Trump looking at using the justice department and suing states into cooperation.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on April 25, 2020, 01:04:28 pm
There's also a brewing issue here where Trump thinks he can supersede State Governeror stay-at-home orders just because he's the president when the American Constitution explicitly says otherwise. So of course there are reports of Trump looking at using the justice department and suing states into cooperation.

Which is one of the things that scares me now and will become truly terrifying if Drumpf get reelected because of all the judges and justices he and McConnell are appointing and will continue to appoint if Drumpf stays in office past Jan 20, 2021. Stare decisis (a.k.a. precedent) doesn't matter to those guys, they'll just keep making decisions favoring the Republican Party's interests no matter what the Constitution says. Bad enough that McConnell got all those unqualified rightwingers to the judiciary that will be there for at least a generation. If Drumpf gets reelected and has four more years to pervert the judiciary even further? Forget it, America will stay a fascist state for at least 2 generations.

And all of this was completely foreseeable in 2016, which is why I'll never forgive any member of the left who didn't bother to vote for Hillary because they couldn't be bothered to care about this very issue. If you want to make lasting social change, you need the courts on your side. Otherwise, travesties of justice like Dred Scott or Korematsu will become the norm. :hopping: :mad: :mad2: :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 25, 2020, 02:25:33 pm
Kim Jon Ung....... Buh-bye.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 25, 2020, 02:57:05 pm
He's almost certainly not dead and probably not that ill. Beware of wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on April 26, 2020, 03:21:09 pm
In Italy several regions have been consistently reporting a very low number of new daily cases for few days, and the number of people in ICUs is decreasing steadily.
Situation in Lombardy is still not good however, as we are still getting ~1000 new official cases per day... and those numbers are pretty unreilable as per an article I shared some pages ago. As a further confirmation of that, I discovered that, out of 10 families living in my apartment block, 4 of them had symptomatic COVID cases, with only one woman being officially counted in the statistics due to having done a swab. Fortunately all of them have already recovered, but it still freaks me out to discover that I had so many COVID cases living literally next door  :shaking:
Including friends and colleagues, I personally know ~30 people who caught the disease, with only the woman I mentioned before being counted as an official case.

Today the Bergamo province released an estimate based on a form filled daily on a volunteer basis reporting symptoms since the start of the outbreak (https://medium.com/@ComunediBergamo/il-35-dei-bergamaschi-ha-presentato-sintomi-di-coronavirus-negli-ultimi-3-mesi-65139097cbf5). Based on such data, they estimated that 35% of the province population caught the virus, meaning 381'000 cases in this province alone... many more cases than all the ones officially reported in the whole country!

Premier Conte has just finished a conference about the end of the lockdown. On 4th May also some industries that are not part of the food & beverage supply chain will be allowed to open, provided they can ensure workers safety (which I fear will not happen in smaller companies, as they know that it will be difficult to control every company). It will also be possible to travel again between towns, but not between regions (as before, work and health issues are an exception to travel restrictions). Many restriction will still be in place however.

Still, our NHS is not ready yet for the inevitable 2nd contagion wave, which I fear will happen earlier than forecast since we Italians are not really good at following rules :(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on April 28, 2020, 05:36:54 am
Positive article about my country:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-28/european-nation-with-least-virus-deaths-proves-speed-is-key

Quote
As the coronavirus continues to kill thousands of people a day across Europe, one country stands out for keeping its death toll low.

Slovakia, a landlocked country of 5.5 million, closed its schools, shops and borders earlier than any other country after Italy. Meanwhile, politicians and TV anchors embraced face masks even before the government made them mandatory.

The measures bore fruit: Six weeks after the first reported infection, Slovakia has just 18 fatalities and is bottom of the European list of deaths per capita, according to data compiled by John Hopkins University as of April 26.

We have only a handful new cases per day over the last week. I think we may actually be entering the next phase of this epidemic, as shown in east Asian countries: almost no new domestic cases and most new ones would be imported from abroad. Hence why maintaining strict migration restrictions and mandatory quarantine for travellers will remain crucial as we gradualy open up the economy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 28, 2020, 09:05:19 am
More positive news:
When looking at the number of deaths in a country, we usually assume that the number of deaths due to covid-19 is smaller than the actual number of deaths due to lack of testing or people dying as a result of overworked health care personnel or lack of ressources.
For my home state of Northrhine-Westphalia, at least up to mid-March (https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/medizin/corona-pandemie-nordrhein-westfalen-meldet-keine-erhoehte-sterblichkeit-a-6a8e5553-a43e-4613-8d93-7e22b9c5ca1c), we can confidently state that there is no significantly raised mortality.

So, as it turns out, all those statements about covid-19 being about as dangerous as the flu? Actually true! If, that is, you shut down pretty much all public life, make sure that hospitals are well-stocked and staff well-trained.

It must be pointed out of course that at present, only about 200 people die each day due to COVID-19 around here. Given that, in normal years, about ten times that number die from various other causes, COVID-19 will still be responsible for a significant amount of death and suffering that could still have been avoided if we had acted quicker.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 28, 2020, 02:03:43 pm
So, as it turns out, all those statements about covid-19 being about as dangerous as the flu? Actually true! If, that is, you shut down pretty much all public life, make sure that hospitals are well-stocked and staff well-trained.

Sooooo

Not actually true right? Or is my sarcasm detector failing?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on April 28, 2020, 02:48:56 pm
The "actually true" should be read as dripping with the thickest, juiciest of sarcasm
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on April 28, 2020, 04:32:43 pm
the lion is indeed no more dangerous than a kitten when securely enclosed in a steel cage, i don't know why people were making such a fuss and telling us we had to buy steel to make a cage
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 28, 2020, 05:34:19 pm
Don't overestimate how good the cage is or how many people are stupid enough to mail order lions...
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on April 29, 2020, 04:49:54 am
that was a good analogy.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on April 29, 2020, 12:54:40 pm
And you know there's no analogy without.......

Spoiler:
Log.  What were you expecting you sicko 😜
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on April 30, 2020, 09:37:18 am
I like how Trump comes to the correct conclusion that Sweden not locking down a mistake, and then says the US ... has made the correct decision despite them doing less then Sweden has done? (https://nitter.net/realDonaldTrump/status/1255825648448348161)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on May 01, 2020, 12:47:05 pm
A very nice analysis of the clusterf**k happening here: https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-04-26/perfect-storm-virus-disaster-in-italys-lombardy-region-is-a-lesson-for-the-world?fbclid=IwAR2gqZkZgvyXzrgoGTJnP4cOBScqGmM5VtanqbzQNDgvSEDqj7tiwqDYb3o

Less than 3 days before some restrictions are lifted, and still the situation is as described in the article.

I give it 1 month before at least Lombardy (let's hope the rest of Italy is spared) will be put back into lockdown  :(
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on May 01, 2020, 08:34:33 pm
On this, the first day of Tennessee's phased reopening, the state health department discovered ~1,000 previously unreported cases of COVID-19.

So we're off to a great start.

Fortunately, no call from my bosses today, so I haven't yet had to choose between my health or my job.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Solatar on May 01, 2020, 09:12:48 pm
On this, the first day of Tennessee's phased reopening, the state health department discovered ~1,000 previously unreported cases of COVID-19.


I think today is the first day of phase 2 in Tennessee, not the first day of the phased reopening. I was ordered back to work on Monday. I had to quit, because I've worked in restaurants long enough to know that it's not a good idea (if you enjoy eating at restaurants and have never worked at one, never work at one, you'll never eat out again). I also don't think it should be the waiter/bartender's responsibility to screen you about your COVID exposure, because I'm not a medical professional, and because of the way tipped pay works in the US, the person I'm "screening" is also the one deciding how much to pay me. You think the rednecks that go out in the first few weeks of the pandemic are going to like being questioned about it by a server?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: BlueFlames on May 02, 2020, 09:28:11 am
Notwithstanding the fact that the stay-at-home order had so many exceptions that it was hard to call Tennessee "closed" at all, yesterday was the first day of reopening.

Yes, dine-in restraunts were opened in the first phase.  :banghead:  So too were brick-and-mortar retail stores and gyms.

Phase two starts this coming week and will include salons, so that Karen can finally get that haircut that's apparently worth the lives of a few old folks.

In any case, I'm glad you're staying safe, Solatar.  I know a lot of people aren't so lucky to have the option to "voluntarily" leave their job for any length of time.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Solatar on May 02, 2020, 10:12:19 am
I'm very lucky to be in a position where I could just up and quit (we live in a paid off house on a small farm, so we have some bills but no giant rent payment, and I'm one of the lucky ones who's actually been getting an unemployment check for a month). I left education a few years ago because you can make about the same amount of money bartending as you can teaching in a charter school in Tennessee, and also have a wife and a life, but I don't think restaurant jobs will be viable anymore and it's looking like I'm going to have to start using my education again.

We were the last restaurant left open in Gallatin when the closures started (the restaurant next door got closed by the health department a day earlier because it came out on Facebook that a staff member had tested positive and had been going to work with symptoms for two days, but corporate wouldn't shut it down), and if the people coming in then are the same people who are going out now then it's truly an invasion of the Karens.

Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on May 02, 2020, 04:05:33 pm
In Portugal, the big "scandal" now is that the first of May was celebrated with all kinds of hygienic measures we've all seen on the internet (distancing, masks, gloves, etc.), and the right wing was just groveling on their own misery, "why are these guys allowed to do this", etc.

They did the same pathetic outrage a week before, in the 25th April celebrations that mark 46 years since the Carnation Revolution freed Portugal from the fascistic dictatorship, surrounding the parliamentary yearly homage to the event.

IOW, we're doing fine. Masks have become available, if yet expensive (50 masks for 25 euros, the cheaper option in a particular supermarket, most are around 1 € per mask), which means in 3 days the whole country is obligated to wear masks by law in public areas, all the while when the economy is about to open up. We're doing incredibly in terms of tests, which surprised the heck out of me. So I'm genuinely positive about my own country's situation, albeit things can change in a heartbeat.

We'll see.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on May 02, 2020, 10:03:15 pm
Here in Sicily we've been lucky.
To be fair the entire region is a big island plus a bunch of smaller ones (including the one I live in) so controlling traffic in and out of the region has been relatively easy and fortunately region president Musumeci (for all the Americans: think of a governor though not quite, Sicily though is one of the regions with extra autonomy) didn't get into the rightwing asshattery Salvini and Meloni have been up to.
We had very few cases in the Aeolian Islands all quickly contained, and one or two false alarms.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Ghostavo on May 05, 2020, 05:00:44 am
In Portugal, the big "scandal" now is that the first of May was celebrated with all kinds of hygienic measures we've all seen on the internet (distancing, masks, gloves, etc.), and the right wing was just groveling on their own misery, "why are these guys allowed to do this", etc.

They did the same pathetic outrage a week before, in the 25th April celebrations that mark 46 years since the Carnation Revolution freed Portugal from the fascistic dictatorship, surrounding the parliamentary yearly homage to the event.

IOW, we're doing fine. Masks have become available, if yet expensive (50 masks for 25 euros, the cheaper option in a particular supermarket, most are around 1 € per mask), which means in 3 days the whole country is obligated to wear masks by law in public areas, all the while when the economy is about to open up. We're doing incredibly in terms of tests, which surprised the heck out of me. So I'm genuinely positive about my own country's situation, albeit things can change in a heartbeat.

We'll see.

I'm kind of torn on allowing these kinds of social gatherings to take place. The last massive social gatherings (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-womens-day-spain/thousands-march-in-spain-on-womens-day-despite-coronavirus-fears-idUSKBN20V0ZJ) in our little corner of the globe had somewhat disastrous consequences.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 05, 2020, 08:45:24 am
Well back to the grindstone,  few uxo finds in Kent recently so I'm off to provide site overwatch to the junior bods for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Luis Dias on May 05, 2020, 12:28:12 pm
I'm kind of torn on allowing these kinds of social gatherings to take place. The last massive social gatherings (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-womens-day-spain/thousands-march-in-spain-on-womens-day-despite-coronavirus-fears-idUSKBN20V0ZJ) in our little corner of the globe had somewhat disastrous consequences.

Well, this is the kind of stuff that happened:
(http://www.cgtp.pt/images/images/2020/05/1maio-2020.jpg)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on May 06, 2020, 02:45:25 pm
Things are very slowly opening up here now. (https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/05/dutch-start-easing-coronavirus-restrictions-face-masks-a-must-on-public-transport/)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on May 11, 2020, 10:32:50 pm
So, uh, how is everybody doing? Are you still sheltering where you are? Are things getting back to sort-of normal yet?
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on May 11, 2020, 10:47:40 pm
Still sheltering except when I'm going to my essential job at the supermarket. Since I didn't get direct deposit yet, I have to find a new way to deposit my paychecks because the bank's office branch is closed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on May 12, 2020, 06:27:57 am
So, uh, how is everybody doing? Are you still sheltering where you are? Are things getting back to sort-of normal yet?

Still sheltering but we still have reservations in June, I already live in my workplace technically speaking but at least until now I was only keeping the living quarters reasonably clean (and the occasional e-mail, mostly to remind people they could cancel for free given the circumstances) while the rest of the family did some maintenance on the hotel proper.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: MitoPL on May 12, 2020, 07:37:36 am
My administrative region which is just a tiny bit larger than 50k square kilometers and just below 1,2 million people has got very encouraging statistics. Total confirmed cases - 384, 303 of which are cured, 7 dead. Last confirmed new case was two days ago, and before that there were two infected people found two days earlier. Numbers are pretty consistently going down to on average one new infection found per day.

Currently about 1500 people in preventative self-quarantine.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 12, 2020, 10:18:16 am
Onsite commercial EOD.  Moderately key work 👍👍
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colt on May 12, 2020, 10:44:14 am
Elementary schools and daycares in my province opened back up this week (high schools, universities etc. are off until the fall), though Montreal and its suburbs are holding back on that for another week or two since it's the epicenter of the outbreak.  Currently Quebec accounts for more than half of Canada's total cases (38,469, total in Canada 69,981), with MTL alone amounting to over a quarter of the country's cases. My municipality in Montreal is reporting between 100-249 cases, some of which have likely recovered by now, but our proximity to downtown (20 minute bus ride+10 in the metro) has kept people on edge.

Thankfully people are taking distancing seriously, and most are wearing masks when they go into stores or other areas where close contact us almost unavoidable. I don't agree with provincial government's decision to reopen as quickly as they want to, since we're still getting anywhere between 700-900 new cases a day. Guess we'll see what happens in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Mongoose on May 12, 2020, 11:47:00 am
Still attempting to teach from home, whatever "teaching" even means at this point.  At least there are just a few weeks left.  Going out to the supermarket remains an absolute ****-show.  I feel like the world's worst cowboy every time I step out in public with a bandana tied around my face.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on May 12, 2020, 02:06:38 pm
Still attempting to teach from home, whatever "teaching" even means at this point.  At least there are just a few weeks left.  Going out to the supermarket remains an absolute ****-show.  I feel like the world's worst cowboy every time I step out in public with a bandana tied around my face.

Don't worry, you'll get used to it. If the managers at your supermarket have any brains, they're requiring all customers (and employees) to be wearing masks before they're allowed in the store. That's the policy at my local Giant supermarket where I work, anyway. If everyone is wearing a mask alongside you, you'll feel a lot less stupid. And if you're the only one wearing a mask? Then you'll feel a lot less stupid when they're drowning in their own blood and you're not. It balances out in the end.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on May 12, 2020, 03:27:08 pm
Sadly, unless you have active masks like n95s, it doesn’t.

Passive masks such as surgical grade masks are only effective in preventing your spittle from infecting others, but sadly will be inadequate at filtering outside contaminants. So, if the fact of wearing a mask isn’t followed unanimously, then it’s pretty much useless, which is one of the reasons why there was so much talk about rerouting masks to health authorities in France, despite public uproar.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 12, 2020, 04:03:23 pm
Any mask which doesn't cover all the soft tissue membranes is ineffective.   So full face respirators or filtered respirator and swimming goggles is the only way you'll keep it out of a head based entry as everyone seems to forget the eyes.. . 😂

Romeo state CBRN training is mandatory in the British army and we were required to complete regular (at least annual) qualification to prove effectiveness in those scenarios.

All an unfiltered cloth mask (like all these homemade ones with lovely patterns I'm seeing flood social media) does, is after a few minutes of normal breathing, it creates a humid panel in front of your mouth and nose which makes an excellent dragnet for everything to adhere to.   
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on May 12, 2020, 06:17:18 pm
Very true.

Also, excellent point about the eyes by the way, which somehow never seems to get across.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on May 12, 2020, 06:39:34 pm
It still reduces the range at which particles are transmitted. No one is saying it's an impenetrable aegis, but it's better than just giving up. Some of the general public is already against taking the most basic precautionary steps, they need to be prodded to do the bare minimum for public health.

If it was up to me, I'd prosecute anti-vaxxers, but that ship has already sailed.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on May 12, 2020, 07:51:11 pm
In theory I agree, but that’s provided you have enough masks to go around. If not, better to reroute those masks in health where they can do the most good by trained people who can then do their job of keeping other people healthy.

It’s also a cultural thing: many people have discouraged people from wearing masks in France due to 2 things:

One is a subset of people tend to become panicky as a result.

The second is another subset of people tend to later be laxist on other matters (minimum distance security, hands hygiene,etc...)

So it really isn’t as clear cut as this.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on May 13, 2020, 06:59:55 am
Passive masks such as surgical grade masks are only effective in preventing your spittle from infecting others, but sadly will be inadequate at filtering outside contaminants. So, if the fact of wearing a mask isn’t followed unanimously, then it’s pretty much useless, which is one of the reasons why there was so much talk about rerouting masks to health authorities in France, despite public uproar.

Any mask which doesn't cover all the soft tissue membranes is ineffective.   So full face respirators or filtered respirator and swimming goggles is the only way you'll keep it out of a head based entry as everyone seems to forget the eyes.. . 😂
All an unfiltered cloth mask (like all these homemade ones with lovely patterns I'm seeing flood social media) does, is after a few minutes of normal breathing, it creates a humid panel in front of your mouth and nose which makes an excellent dragnet for everything to adhere to.

Ok, here we go again... 

First let me say that science on this is not really settled and very hard to conclusively settle one way or another. However, Coronavirus is a droplet infection. Those droplets are significantly larger than individual virions and even homemade cloth mask worn haphazardly may be able to stop a lot of them. As you said, it could be a good dragnet. So there is certain logic behind wearing those masks even if nobody else does. Also, viral dose may matter so even an imperfect protection may be better than no protection. You can be assured that any healthcare personnel, if faced with the choice, would wear a homemade cloth mask rather than nothing. So you should probably as well.

EDIT: nice overview of the situation here in Slovakia. red = infected, blue = cured, dark blue = dead

(https://i.ibb.co/Dfmcj16/Capture.png)
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 13, 2020, 07:07:52 am
If it's not airtight, it's not right.  Sure using a pan to bail water from a sinking rowboat is better than nothing.  But a sieve is next to useless.   

The science may not be settled if you say, but I can stick to my opinion and let you stick to yours without conflict 👍
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Det. Bullock on May 13, 2020, 07:50:36 am
If it's not airtight, it's not right.  Sure using a pan to bail water from a sinking rowboat is better than nothing.  But a sieve is next to useless.   

The science may not be settled if you say, but I can stick to my opinion and let you stick to yours without conflict %uD83D%uDC4D

Droplets (the occasional clumps of snot, saliva and other stuff we spit out while we breathe or speak) are bigger than air molecules, though.
Reasoning they are useless it's like certain arguments people made back when they finally made helmets compulsory for scooters here: "but if a scooter accident happens in a certain way the helmet is useless!" they said, missing the point that at least you got some protection in the case the accident happens in other "certain ways", better partial protection than no protection.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 13, 2020, 08:08:12 am
It's the false confidence the general public associate with them here that causes flocking in supermarkets that grips my ****.  They assume its a lucifer style sheath shield and walk well within my personal space leaving me little room to manoeuvre despite protest.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: starlord on May 13, 2020, 08:39:53 am
Precisely the point dekker makes.

The masks are not useless and do provide some form of protection.

However that protection is not absolute and people should recognise this while using them, and continue to enforce remaining protective measures.

My point here is that by failing to do so, the masks utility is being wasted, and it is a precious resource.

As previously said, contrary to popular belief, this is no lucifer sheath shield.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: 666maslo666 on May 13, 2020, 10:56:16 am
My point here is that by failing to do so, the masks utility is being wasted, and it is a precious resource.

Regarding mask scarcity, that is why countries with compulsory masking recommend using primarily reusable, washable cloth masks (can quite easily be made even at home if you can sew). Or even bandanas. Not disposable surgical masks or N95 respirators, those are best left for healthcare professionals.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Rhymes on May 13, 2020, 02:22:34 pm
A reminder to everyone here. Face masks other than N95s DO NOT protect you from other people’s germs. They protect other people from your germs. Wear your ****ing mask. Protect the people around you.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 13, 2020, 02:59:02 pm
And stay at home.   👍👍
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: The E on May 14, 2020, 03:24:03 am
Remember some millennia ago, when certain political figures were suddenly on the hype train for a drug named hydroxychloroquine?

Here's where that nonsense came from (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-fox-news_n_5ebaffdbc5b65b5fd63dac80).

Quote
President Donald Trump’s obsession with the anti-malarial drug hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for the coronavirus may have started in part because of a self-described philosopher in China who is a fan of white nationalists, tweets anti-Semitic rhetoric and calls chloroquine “a Nazi drug that is here to teach a lesson to leftists about bias.”

Yeah, there's everything in there. Some grifters posting ****, some more influential grifters picking it up and signal-boosting it, media that reports stuff that originates from within their ideological sphere unchallenged and unvetted.....
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Su-tehp on May 16, 2020, 08:15:16 pm
Sometimes I still can't believe that I lived to see a moron like Donald Trump become the greatest con man in history (never mind the President of the United States), but this is where we are. I almost feel sorry for the people taken in by his cons, but then I remember that they voted for him and are getting the least of what they deserve.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Dysko on May 17, 2020, 04:16:12 am
Italy is now 2 weeks into the relaxed lockdown, and from tomorrow the lockdown is expected to be relaxed further due to no increase in new daily cases since the rule relaxation.
...which is not quite clever with a 2 weeks incubation period.

While the outbreak is mostly contained in many regions, the Lombardy clusterf**k will be a problem, since we are getting more than 50% of the new daily cases in the whole country, and still we do not know who is actually infected.

Other regions have started massive screening programs to map the outbreak. Lombardy instead says "F**k you. Do you want to be tested? Pay for the test yourself!" (Lombardy healthcare system is quite different from the rest of Italy, since it heavily relies on private facilities, much more than the rest of the country).

And despite having one of the highest death ratios WORLDWIDE, few days ago the Lombardy governor said that the region was the best one in containing the outbreak  :blah:

Masks are compulsory now, but I still see many people wearing them without covering the nose, or removing them to chat better  :wtf:
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Scourge of Ages on May 17, 2020, 11:30:07 am
Masks are compulsory now, but I still see many people wearing them without covering the nose, or removing them to chat better  :wtf:

Reeeeeee but people can still hear you fine through a mask aaaaaaaa
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Stealth on May 22, 2020, 10:57:10 pm
A reminder to everyone here. Face masks other than N95s DO NOT protect you from other people’s germs. They protect other people from your germs. Wear your ****ing mask. Protect the people around you.
Yeah what he said.

These masks (or "face coverings" - using a bandana, etc) are not designed or even IMPLIED to protect YOU.  They protect EVERYONE ELSE FROM YOU.
And the logic goes - if everyone around you is also wearing a mask, then the chances of you getting infected go way down.
Same concept as surgeons - they don't want to infect the guy lying on the operating table, so they wear surgical masks, not N95s.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: -Joshua- on May 23, 2020, 02:25:06 pm
I've just come here to laugh at Domonic Cummings.
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Phantom Hoover on May 26, 2020, 03:35:54 am
the big question now is whether he's Dominic Going
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on May 26, 2020, 07:24:07 am
He might well be, as someone else now has (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52806086).
Title: Re: Coronavirus Outbreak
Post by: Kiloku on May 27, 2020, 09:03:18 am
Not making this up right now. One of the corporate magnates campaigning to end quarantine measures here in Brazil is called "Edgard Corona".