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Archived Boards => The Archive => Blackwater Operations => Topic started by: Nightmare on March 27, 2020, 07:39:05 pm

Title: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on March 27, 2020, 07:39:05 pm
A while ago I found this campaign outline written by Ace in a thread from 2012: https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=80527.msg1600629#msg1600629
I guessed that this was the plotline for the would-be successor of BWO given how PS was supposed to be the conclusion for the CE storys but I wasn't sure, any confirmation of that?
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Raven2001 on March 28, 2020, 01:02:48 pm
Yes, PS was supposed to be the conclusion of the CE stories. :)
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Gloriano on March 28, 2020, 02:24:17 pm
They worked on it but as everyone left it was cancelled like BWO pretty much.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nightmare on March 28, 2020, 02:38:06 pm
So that is the PS plotline and not an unrelated project by Ace?
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Gloriano on March 28, 2020, 02:45:28 pm
So that is the PS plotline and not an unrelated project by Ace?

Ace had his own project with Twilight and sequel was supposed to be Babel Effect (i think BWO ended having some of the plot trough)
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nightmare on March 28, 2020, 06:25:00 pm
So that is the PS plotline and not an unrelated project by Ace?

Ace had his own project with Twilight and sequel was supposed to be Babel Effect (i think BWO ended having some of the plot trough)

AFAIK Babel Effect wasn't about anything Sol-related (and hence set before BWO- though of course not excluding the possibility that some parts of the plot ended up in BWO) so this is either PS or a different campaign.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: starlord on March 28, 2020, 07:26:22 pm
I’m still hoping that something could be done regarding the limbo BWO is currently in so that this continuity could have some form of closure.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2020, 08:13:54 pm
It could be finished with a couple fredders and a couple months' work.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nightmare on March 28, 2020, 08:22:34 pm
It could be finished with a couple fredders and a couple months' work.

Is the "we need everything in HTL" a thing of the past now? AFAIK (what doesn't need to mean much in terms of BWO) there was still some old stuff.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2020, 09:23:01 pm
It could be finished with a couple fredders and a couple months' work.

Pretty much my stance
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: 0rph3u5 on March 28, 2020, 09:30:36 pm
It could be finished with a couple fredders and a couple months' work.

Pretty much my stance

"I need three ships and fifty stout men..."
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Gloriano on March 29, 2020, 09:30:59 am
It could be finished with a couple fredders and a couple months' work.
So maybe something that the campaign upgrade guys could probably do if they had some help and they had interest.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Gloriano on March 29, 2020, 09:32:46 am
So that is the PS plotline and not an unrelated project by Ace?

Ace had his own project with Twilight and sequel was supposed to be Babel Effect (i think BWO ended having some of the plot trough)

AFAIK Babel Effect wasn't about anything Sol-related (and hence set before BWO- though of course not excluding the possibility that some parts of the plot ended up in BWO) so this is either PS or a different campaign.

there is that GTVI rebellion part that had some things from twilight when i had chance to see long time ago playing the ''beta''
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nightmare on March 29, 2020, 09:50:29 am
It could be finished with a couple fredders and a couple months' work.
So maybe something that the campaign upgrade guys could probably do if they had some help and they had interest.

While Twisted Infinities is an example of a more or less dead campaign that got safed and ultimatly released through FSCRP, AFAIK Admiral Nelson was involved in BWO drama at some point so I'm afraid it's not likely.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nightmare on March 29, 2020, 09:51:41 am
So that is the PS plotline and not an unrelated project by Ace?

Ace had his own project with Twilight and sequel was supposed to be Babel Effect (i think BWO ended having some of the plot trough)

AFAIK Babel Effect wasn't about anything Sol-related (and hence set before BWO- though of course not excluding the possibility that some parts of the plot ended up in BWO) so this is either PS or a different campaign.

there is that GTVI rebellion part that had some things from twilight when i had chance to see long time ago playing the ''beta''

So BWO is about GTVI rebelling? I already guessed that with the "somewhat like MT" references though.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Raven2001 on April 03, 2020, 03:12:05 am
Can't disclose such info :P
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: BlackDove on May 12, 2020, 04:56:48 pm
It could be finished with a couple fredders and a couple months' work.

Pretty much my stance

Mine as well. :)
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nightmare on May 12, 2020, 05:54:07 pm
Does any of you 2 have a list of potential available Fredders or asked around? Last news I heard on Discord (though from earlier this year) was that Battuta had no time, also he said "several".
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Gloriano on May 21, 2020, 12:40:50 pm
Slight chance after 20 years? ;) but i think best way would be try to get it done in two parts one part dealing the first half before **Beeeepp and the other part after you can *beeep* *beep*
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Raven2001 on May 27, 2020, 02:40:08 am
Slight chance after 20 years? ;) but i think best way would be try to get it done in two parts one part dealing the first half before **Beeeepp and the other part after you can *beeep* *beep*

No idea about the "chance".
We did settle on doing it in episodes. 3 or 4. :)
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nightmare on May 28, 2020, 08:46:43 am
Slight chance after 20 years? ;) but i think best way would be try to get it done in two parts one part dealing the first half before **Beeeepp and the other part after you can *beeep* *beep*

No idea about the "chance".

Maybe try this?

Does any of you 2 have a list of potential available Fredders or asked around? Last news I heard on Discord (though from earlier this year) was that Battuta had no time, also he said "several".
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: SF-Junky on June 07, 2020, 01:57:15 pm
I'm actually surprised people still believe something will ever come out of this project. To me it's pretty clear, honestly, that this will not be the case.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nightmare on June 07, 2020, 03:59:18 pm
As long it's not declared that there's always a chance. TI was resting for 5 years on Black Wolfs HD before I started bugging him about it. When he no longer had the time to work on it himself he passed modlead to Admiral Nelson. I doubt there were many who expected it to ever release, still it got out this year. A number of extremely talented people (Battuta, JSRNerdo and Nyctaeus) volunteered to work on it, so the chance is there, atleast if they have time to do so, what might not be the case right now, but since it's a hobby you can take as much time as it takes.

Earlier in the thread it sounded like that the intention to make HTL versions of ships before release was finally thrown over board too, so what is left is the missions and possibly some touch-ups on the writing. Those got split into 3 or 4 episodes; and most of the missions, while not perfectly new are in some semi-complete state, what is easier than making a complete campaign from scratch. I'd volunteer to debug the modpack but that would require the current staff to devise a plan what is supposed to happen first.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nyctaeus on June 07, 2020, 05:45:19 pm
Nothing will happen with BWO without will of actual team leaders. TI was floating in development inertia for several years with Black Wolf clearly stuck in typical "development hell". We've got pretty much complete, but not polished product but most importantly, BW was kind enough to provide us quite free hand at changing models, rebalancing missions, he provided us access with TI's FTP and... Basicly FSCRP could finish and release TI without any additional obstacles.

If I remember correctly, BWO is much worse shape then TI. Vanilla mission design, random crashes, lots of redundant missions etc. Years passed since I played it for the last time, but I doubt if anything changed. For me, FSCRP could pick it, but it means cutting redundant missions, model replacements [because some of BWO's models are stilll retail quality, while others are shiny HTLs] and possibly other changes... Which BWO leaders are not likely to let us do.

Personally I offered BWO my modelling/texturing services years ago. In the difference to some community members who had qurrels with BWO core members in the past, BWO team was always kind for me. So my offer stands valid, but I will work for people who do everything to make the project complete and released, instead of generating additional problems and dramas.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Gloriano on June 08, 2020, 04:25:14 am
I'm actually surprised people still believe something will ever come out of this project. To me it's pretty clear, honestly, that this will not be the case.

Actually i agree with that, it's been way too long the only chance was about 10 years ago or so but then people wanted to feature creep add all new shiny ships etc. I think the best would been with retail quality ships etc because later you could have made the more complete if you wanted.. I can understand the team wanted it to be a really high quality that's what everyone wants for their product.

there is always two sides for everything
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nyctaeus on June 08, 2020, 08:44:15 am
Actually making full-HTL modpack is not far from being possible. There are plenty of cool-quality models in the community asset pool. BP is an example how to do it right: Their crucial assets [like TEI ships, or warships of UEF fleet] are mostly custom or heavily modified to suit their needs. Rest of their modpack was assembled by adaptation of public assets or assets from other mods. It is very efficient and in my opinion, preferred way to make large fleetpacks.

On the other hand, there is crazy "let's make whole HTL fleet from scratch" approach. Very few people accomplished something like that. Actually including myself with EA fleet for Inferno. Raven was on the right path, and he did magnificent job with majority of custom assets for BWO. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think that assets are actually cause of BWO's downfall.

FRED was. BWO team apparently counted on magic or divine intervention for their missions to happen. With almost non-existing progress in FRED department, all asset creators quickly lost any interest. It always happens. Asset creators must feel that their hard work is not gonna be wasted. Otherwise we quickly lose motivation.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Gloriano on June 08, 2020, 01:50:10 pm
Actually making full-HTL modpack is not far from being possible. There are plenty of cool-quality models in the community asset pool. BP is an example how to do it right: Their crucial assets [like TEI ships, or warships of UEF fleet] are mostly custom or heavily modified to suit their needs. Rest of their modpack was assembled by adaptation of public assets or assets from other mods. It is very efficient and in my opinion, preferred way to make large fleetpacks.

On the other hand, there is crazy "let's make whole HTL fleet from scratch" approach. Very few people accomplished something like that. Actually including myself with EA fleet for Inferno. Raven was on the right path, and he did magnificent job with majority of custom assets for BWO. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think that assets are actually cause of BWO's downfall.

FRED was. BWO team apparently counted on magic or divine intervention for their missions to happen. With almost non-existing progress in FRED department, all asset creators quickly lost any interest. It always happens. Asset creators must feel that their hard work is not gonna be wasted. Otherwise we quickly lose motivation.

I think if it was possible to use public assets for a project would be a best way to go and the fastest for a major project but of course there is thing. ''do they look the kind of assets that fits on certain fleet and have the feeling it would serve it's purpose'' a lot projects wanted their project have the unique feeling from others.

But like MT, BWO only had a whole new fleet of ships for Sol ships and some for GTVA so not that many assets compared to the like Inferno.

but like you said making the actual missions seems to be problem for a lot even if you managed to get the assets it seems to be biggest killer in some projects..
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Nightmare on June 08, 2020, 05:28:17 pm
From what I've seen of the Screens of Sol craft, some of the ED fighters could work well as replacements.

but like you said making the actual missions seems to be problem for a lot even if you managed to get the assets it seems to be biggest killer in some projects..

Well OTT had probably the biggest set of new ships from HLPs early "megaprojects", yet the shipset got finished and Venom didn't care about upgrading simply because he had put so much work into his ships, still it imploded because nobody wanted to make missions for him, so neither the 3-mission demo nor the 10 missions of act 1 got finished.
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: Raven2001 on June 12, 2020, 11:14:15 am
In the difference to some community members who had qurrels with BWO core members in the past, BWO team was always kind for me.

I don't think we were unkind to anyone actually. We did respond harshly and decisively to some behaviors of others, but I still think our reaction was warranted, given the circumstances.

but I will work for people who do everything to make the project complete and released, instead of generating additional problems and dramas.

Out of curiosity, what additional problems and dramas do you perceive we generated while you were with us?
Title: Re: Paradigm Shift storyline?
Post by: General Battuta on June 12, 2020, 02:38:10 pm
I think it would just take a couple of months of dedicated work by 1-2 fredders to have BWO ready for release.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nyctaeus on June 13, 2020, 09:24:13 pm
Out of curiosity, what additional problems and dramas do you perceive we generated while you were with us?
Not my theatre, not my actors. There is nothing I was directly involved in, nor I am interested in dramas of other people. During general activity in the community, interacting with people etc. you can just encounter voices mentioning some issues. Voices I won't name, because people involved knows their cases. Each coin has two sides, so judging is certainly not in my competences and interest.

It's rather about something I remember from BtRL and Earth Defense. The scheme I remember. Dramas and negative gossip combined with long-term lack of progress. Clear signs that something bad is happening within development team. Eventually, none of those three projects published anything more, than short demo releases. And in case of both BWO, BtRL and ED, all of them ended up in complete collapse.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on June 14, 2020, 04:23:05 pm
IMHO instead of discussing past drama I'd rather like to know if there're concrete plans to push BWO ahead. Pretty much everybody involved in it either abandoned HLP entirely or atleast doesn't care about BWO anymore, they will add literally nothing to BWOs future (if it's supposed to have any).
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: General Battuta on June 15, 2020, 10:21:14 am
I recently played through (almost) all the missions and made a list of stuff that needs to be fixed/improved to get it release ready. It's not insuperable.

A lot of people have said "why doesn't BWO just release?" or actively tried to make it happen. I fully support the team's decision to not release yet. The campaign is not finished and never has been. But it wouldn't take too much work to get it to a good place.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on June 15, 2020, 11:06:11 am
The reason why people asked for "just releasing" is that there was a beta long ago, and because Goober said they were done. Also the dev team was focused solely on models so when the mission issue resurfaced it appeared as if they had just bumped the goalposts again.

BTW, are you planning to change some things about the writing of the campaign as well?
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: starlord on June 15, 2020, 11:30:59 am
I’d love it if the Morgan technology and enigma arcs were somehow retained.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Raven2001 on June 15, 2020, 11:45:20 am
Not my theatre, not my actors. There is nothing I was directly involved in, nor I am interested in dramas of other people. During general activity in the community, interacting with people etc. you can just encounter voices mentioning some issues. Voices I won't name, because people involved knows their cases. Each coin has two sides, so judging is certainly not in my competences and interest.

It's rather about something I remember from BtRL and Earth Defense. The scheme I remember. Dramas and negative gossip combined with long-term lack of progress. Clear signs that something bad is happening within development team. Eventually, none of those three projects published anything more, than short demo releases. And in case of both BWO, BtRL and ED, all of them ended up in complete collapse.

I misunderstood you, then. I thought you were saying that there was drama related to you.
But yeah I agree that the best is to leave it buried.

IMHO instead of discussing past drama I'd rather like to know if there're concrete plans to push BWO ahead. Pretty much everybody involved in it either abandoned HLP entirely or atleast doesn't care about BWO anymore, they will add literally nothing to BWOs future (if it's supposed to have any).

Concrete, not yet, no.
But your assumption that all of the people involved don't care about BWO anymore is not correct, because I do care.

I recently played through (almost) all the missions and made a list of stuff that needs to be fixed/improved to get it release ready.

I'd be interested in reading your notes :)
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on June 15, 2020, 12:38:14 pm
IMHO instead of discussing past drama I'd rather like to know if there're concrete plans to push BWO ahead. Pretty much everybody involved in it either abandoned HLP entirely or atleast doesn't care about BWO anymore, they will add literally nothing to BWOs future (if it's supposed to have any).
But your assumption that all of the people involved don't care about BWO anymore is not correct, because I do care.


I could've worded that better, what I wanted to express is that it does not make sense to discuss the past (again); sure you and BD were involved in that too but the others who were are simply not here anymore, so the gain from another discussion who did what will be pointless.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Gloriano on June 15, 2020, 01:22:17 pm
I’d love it if the Morgan technology and enigma arcs were somehow retained.

Don't expect too much from those a bit maybe related to delphi system as there are certain things happening (they could have changed a lot trough so maybe i got old info that got changed)
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: General Battuta on June 15, 2020, 03:20:10 pm
I'd be interested in reading your notes :)

I posted them all on internal.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Raven2001 on June 17, 2020, 02:44:54 am
I'd be interested in reading your notes :)

I posted them all on internal.

Indeed, you did. And I replied, and you replied... Old age is getting to me I guess :P
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: starlord on June 17, 2020, 05:45:51 am
As long as the story arcs get closed in some way, I think derelict players will be satisfied.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on June 17, 2020, 05:57:19 am
From what I read here Derelicts plot and other CE campaigns will barely be touched, although some elements may appear.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: starlord on June 17, 2020, 07:44:53 am
Doesn’t have to be that complex a narrative, just to provide some closure more than anything.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on June 17, 2020, 08:00:35 am
BWO was originally more of an interlude; some sort of FS2 Expansion, while Paradigm Shift was supposed to be the CE teams take on FS3. The latter never happened though. How much of the other CE campaigns made it into BWO remains to be seen. I think the "Ask a Q thread" hinted that some chars from other CE campaigns may appear, but IIRC they said that there wouldn't be much of a resulotion to Derelict.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Gloriano on June 17, 2020, 01:07:44 pm
BWO was originally more of an interlude; some sort of FS2 Expansion, while Paradigm Shift was supposed to be the CE teams take on FS3. The latter never happened though. How much of the other CE campaigns made it into BWO remains to be seen. I think the "Ask a Q thread" hinted that some chars from other CE campaigns may appear, but IIRC they said that there wouldn't be much of a resulotion to Derelict.

I would say if released the whole main plot explain's  why certain things happened in Warzone and derelict also who mighty been behind them but nothing directly
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: mjn.mixael on June 17, 2020, 01:18:53 pm
Until someone actually opens up FRED and does something, none of this matters.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on June 17, 2020, 01:43:58 pm
Well there's no shortage of volunteers as far as I can see this.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: CT27 on June 17, 2020, 04:09:19 pm
Since Derelict subplots were mentioned, I think the MT subplot could in other campaigns be wrapped up simply by having the Auriga get captured or destroyed (On the other hand, in the unlikely event Derelict ever gets redone it could be fixed by having the Auriga self-destruct in that capture mission though that would require a couple more lines of dialogue).  That would be a 'simple' solution, but at least it would close that open/unresolved subplot.


I'm not sure what the second subplot (that renegade Iceni class ship) was about though.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: starlord on June 17, 2020, 04:14:10 pm
Somehow linked to GTVI in derelict, flying vasudan fighters for some reason.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on June 17, 2020, 06:38:04 pm
I think the only change that will be made to Derelict is that it'll be based on BWOs modpack.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Su-tehp on June 17, 2020, 08:01:29 pm
Since Derelict subplots were mentioned, I think the MT subplot could in other campaigns be wrapped up simply by having the Auriga get captured or destroyed (On the other hand, in the unlikely event Derelict ever gets redone it could be fixed by having the Auriga self-destruct in that capture mission though that would require a couple more lines of dialogue).  That would be a 'simple' solution, but at least it would close that open/unresolved subplot.

Isn't there a rumor that the MTD Auriga is supposed to make an appearance in BWO and that's why it pulled a What Happened to the Mouse (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatHappenedToTheMouse) in Derelict? (Damn my joystick breaking last Sunday so I have to wait 2 weeks for my new joystick to get here so's I can finish playing Derelict.)
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: BlackDove on July 05, 2020, 03:13:21 am
Until someone actually opens up FRED and does something, none of this matters.

Totally spot on.

Well there's no shortage of volunteers as far as I can see this.

If you know of any, have them message me.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Ace on July 05, 2020, 12:36:39 pm
That Dreamland post wasn't really about a BWO sequel but a FS3-like plot based on what Volition had hinted at (Shivan town, the old FS2).

Babel Effect got killed but the secret mission loops basically included the main plot things as they fit pretty well with Kepler's plans.

Overall though BWO's plot (whether GTVA or Kepler's NTA) basically sets the stage for a final showdown 20-30 years later.

But BWO is basically meant to be the FS2 expansion with the return to Sol we never got.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on July 05, 2020, 12:42:03 pm
So PS was something even more exotic? I just remember reading this here about all kinds of fancy subspace infrastructure: https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=34023.msg728178#msg728178
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Ace on July 05, 2020, 12:55:36 pm
Basically technology wise the united Terran-Vasudan fleet is on par or better than the Shivans.

But the issue is that the Shivans are operating on a totally different level (ex. Sathanas being like a Faustus or a support ship). With again Shivans being a symptom of a bigger problem (subspace travel itself and the Shivans basically being its gardeners).
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on July 05, 2020, 01:02:43 pm
Yeah that sounds interesting. I read like tons of explinations regarding, but this one seemed like the only one that provided "the bigger picture" of the Shivans, while pretty much all other campaigns were basically making a "spiced up" version of FS2 - like another invasion, just by bigger ships, omitting the possibilty that the Shivans had something completely different in mind. Stuff like that inspired me to write a (more campaign outline) fanfic with very, very big Shivan stuff, and it's one of the reasons I'm asking for these old things. :)

I know it's been like forever ago, but is there something you remember besides that what PS story was like aside "The Shivan invade.", or even have some notes/design doc used back then?
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: starlord on July 05, 2020, 01:35:09 pm
I seem to recall twilight: the Babel effect being released though. I think...
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on July 05, 2020, 01:49:12 pm
Twilight was released, The Babel Effect (sequel) was cancelled.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: starlord on July 05, 2020, 02:14:55 pm
Oh! I see
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Ace on July 05, 2020, 04:47:20 pm
Yeah that sounds interesting. I read like tons of explinations regarding, but this one seemed like the only one that provided "the bigger picture" of the Shivans, while pretty much all other campaigns were basically making a "spiced up" version of FS2 - like another invasion, just by bigger ships, omitting the possibilty that the Shivans had something completely different in mind. Stuff like that inspired me to write a (more campaign outline) fanfic with very, very big Shivan stuff, and it's one of the reasons I'm asking for these old things. :)

I know it's been like forever ago, but is there something you remember besides that what PS story was like aside "The Shivan invade.", or even have some notes/design doc used back then?

Well the basic outline was in that thread for the acts, basically someone following up on Bosch/ETAK (Kepler's take is basically using ETAK to scramble Shivan communications/thinking) to basically create the "alliance" with the Shivans (i.e. how do star systems need to be arranged/maintained for Terran and Vasudan subspace traffic to happen). Overall though heavy subspace use for FTL is bad (accelerating the heat death of the universe type bad) and the Shivans basically wipe out species using it and have to re-arrange nodes and systems to keep things as natural as possible.

Some plot twists like finding out that the Vasudans were the Ancients, basically a colony of Bosch-likes who tried to make an alliance with the Shivans and set themselves to a pre-warp civilization. So co-existence is possible, provided you don't use subspace and remember to not use it.

Basically the Shivan hornet nest gets kicked with the communication attempt and attempt to find out what happened to Bosch under the guise of exploration fleets (which only one vanished) which results in the opening being "Shivans invade" through the series of Maginot Fortresses.

You then have the ticking clock of the Shivans doing stellar engineering in GTVA space and the last-ditch attempt to kick the Shivans in their teeth by trying to take out a central dyson grid structure (Shivans using stars for their communication hubs/mass redistribution for subspace). The "shivantown" Volition mentioned.

Basically you get the choice of: we can keep trying to kick the shivans and force them to blow up stars away from GTVA space so that the GTVA can keep using subspace. Or realizing that  maybe subspace isn't worth the cost since who knows how many civilizations the Terrans and Vasudans are dooming by blowing up Shivantown and using ETAK  to convince them to focus their subspace maintenance elsewhere.

So no "super evil bigger badguys" just FTL ****s up the universe, and finding out that we're basically an annoying itch.

Very much a case of the GTVA can win every battle, but not the war. While a destroyer might outclass a Lucifer, it can't stop a Sathanas fleet from coming in and re-arranging the furniture.

Gameplay wise though definitely a "bigger FS2" in that you have bigger ships (the small moon size stuff Volition mentioned they wanted to do), superstructures, etc. But the big thing is making sure that the player can interact with it. So if there's a Ceres sized Shivan ship, the mission might be taking out the comm relay with a destroyer group in a hit and run since outright destruction isn't too viable.
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Nightmare on July 05, 2020, 05:40:55 pm
Wow, that's an interesting read! :) I had some similar idea with the Ancients having been a species that never discorvered subspace for a prolonged time, instead relying on STL colonisation of nearby systems and thus not were engaged by the Shivans (something that I took from that "Unx" species in Venoms/Nicos OTT).

BTW, is PS somewhat related to your "Dreamland" story, or is that just due to this "idea pool" that I was told to exist among early FS community from which several campaigns grew? (I mean due to concept of exploration fleets and fortification mentioned in the other story too)
Title: Re: Some BWO discussion (formerly PS story)
Post by: Ace on July 05, 2020, 11:59:44 pm
Yeah the Unx were initially modeled by Dark and were meant to be a pre-warp species that were bumped into with a parallel but different tech development. But a case of a species that'd be easily swatted unintentionally by the Shivans due to the meddling by Terrans and Vasudans.