Author Topic: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st  (Read 3497 times)

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
Or just tweak the IFCS, thruster and ship characteristics until it works well. Turning a spacesim into an aeroplane sim is not the solution, IMHO. Even if flying an aeroplane is subjectively more fun for some people.

That's one hell of a false dichotomy you're setting up there, that a space sim either has flat Newtonian mechanics or is 'an aeroplane sim'. And it's bull****: go play Elite: Dangerous and you can immediately see how to make a game with a unique ~6DOF~ flight model which still has interesting gameplay rather than constant jousting. If the Infinity devs want to accomplish the same thing they are going to have to be willing to abandon ~realistic~ Newtonian flight mechanics, which they have for ten years said will be a feature of their game. My hopes aren't high, sadly.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
Or just tweak the IFCS, thruster and ship characteristics until it works well. Turning a spacesim into an aeroplane sim is not the solution, IMHO. Even if flying an aeroplane is subjectively more fun for some people.

That's one hell of a false dichotomy you're setting up there, that a space sim either has flat Newtonian mechanics or is 'an aeroplane sim'. And it's bull****: go play Elite: Dangerous and you can immediately see how to make a game with a unique ~6DOF~ flight model which still has interesting gameplay rather than constant jousting. If the Infinity devs want to accomplish the same thing they are going to have to be willing to abandon ~realistic~ Newtonian flight mechanics, which they have for ten years said will be a feature of their game. My hopes aren't high, sadly.

In my opinion, Elite flight model is just awful. For some reason you cannot yaw well, you have to pitch instead. Like, WTF? It is incredibly frustrating. And it has some totally arbitrary relationship between turning speed and your velocity, which is very weird, as these should be independent variables.

Id say that Infinity flight model, unfinished as it is, is already superior to that mess.
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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
You see, this is it exactly. You don't criticise E:D's flight model for feeling awkward, for rewarding degenerate gameplay, for not being fun simply to fly in. As far as you're concerned all that matters is that it's 'unrealistic'; or rather, that it's not catering to your pet physics nitpicks, because if you really wanted realism in space you'd be playing Orbiter. I just want a game where flying spaceships around and shooting at other spaceships is engaging and interesting; give me E:D any day.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
Oh, it is awkward as hell, that is probably the main point of my criticism. What Elite is doing is called "artificial difficulty". Instead of fighting other players, you are fighting the controls. And yes, if there was some logical, physical reason for it, I could maybe excuse it, even tough it would still make the game more frustrating. But there is not even that, spaceships do not fly like aeroplanes. Artificial difficulty is a bad design decision, period.

On the other hand, you just cannot go wrong with a basic newtonian flight model. It may not be the pinnacle of space sims for first iteration, but it is not bad either.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 02:03:08 am by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
Are you seriously implying that atmosphere-like controls are so difficult that you're "fighting the controls" instead of other players? Is it really so hard to roll-pitch instead of jawing?
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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
It's even stupider than that, E:D's flight model isn't even remotely 'atmospheric'. You can fly backwards or sideways just fine. He thinks that if a game puts any limitations on your ship's movement then that's 'fake difficulty', even if it results in objectively better gameplay.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
Are you seriously implying that atmosphere-like controls are so difficult that you're "fighting the controls" instead of other players? Is it really so hard to roll-pitch instead of jawing?

Yes, it is much, much harder than just yawing. Also very unintuitive. Which does not matter much for space trucking, but it makes the combat very bad. Id go as far as to say that Elite: Dangerous is a game with perhaps the worst flight model of all space sims. It is not just unfinished or unbalanced, it goes out of its way to be actively bad. Quite an achievement.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
It's even stupider than that, E:D's flight model isn't even remotely 'atmospheric'. You can fly backwards or sideways just fine. He thinks that if a game puts any limitations on your ship's movement then that's 'fake difficulty', even if it results in objectively better gameplay.

You have to roll to turn and you cannot turn your ship well if you go faster. That is the very definition of an atmospheric flight. It is a mechanic which is directly ripped off from aeroplane sims and how real planes behave, in order to make the combat more aeroplane-like and less space-like. The fact that you can move sideways wont save the day.

Fake difficulty is just a failure of a game design. And I dont think it leads to better gameplay at all. Elite would be a considerably better game if it had a flight model like in Diaspora or Star Citizen (or Infinity Battlescape for that matter).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 04:03:48 am by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
Its not like flight combat games are impossibly hard or that enemies in E:D can yaw while you can't. Just play it like any other flight sims but with coll space-y quirks.
If you really think that atmospheric roll-yaw turning is some huge difficulty obstacle then maybe you should look into getting a joystick or at least a gamepad.
And while you're out acquiring those maybe you'd want to acquire some skill too.

Calling this "fake difficulty" is like calling Ace Combat's lack of flares "fake difficulty". It's a game mechanic that encourages a different playstyle.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 04:34:41 am by FrikgFeek »
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Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
Id go as far as to say that Elite: Dangerous is a game with perhaps the worst flight model of all space sims.
...What are you even talking about?
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
Id go as far as to say that Elite: Dangerous is a game with perhaps the worst flight model of all space sims.
...What are you even talking about?

I am talking about the fact that I have never played any space sim with a worse flight model than Elite. And I have played almost all of them. It is like MS flight simulator with spacey backgrounds. It is taylor-made for people coming from aeroplane sim backgrounds, which I am most definitely not. Nor do I have a desire to invest time into learning an intentionally crippled and awkward and unrealistic control scheme. So I stick to slow space trucking in Elite (and even then sometimes hit the station on accident, lol, thats how bad it is). You can call it lack of skill, but then I have no desire to learn this particular skill, just like I have no desire to learn to play FPS games with a console gamepad when we have mice. Overcoming fake difficulty is not rewarding for me.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 10:21:01 am by 666maslo666 »
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.

 
Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
your definition of 'fake difficulty' is genuinely hilarious to me

"this fps is riddled with fake difficulty, if i look up and try to walk forward there's some bull**** force that keeps me in contact with the ground"

"what do you mean i can only move my king one square at a time, **** your fake difficulty"
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
So how much do you enjoy Orbiter

 
Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
So I stick to slow space trucking in Elite (and even then sometimes hit the station on accident, lol, thats how bad I am).

ftfy
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Offline Zacam

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
I decided to back Infinity. For the simple reason that they've done this from scratch, in about the same amount of time that FreeSpace Open has been Open and they've accomplished quite a lot for what they have done with no previous backing (that I'm aware of).

Sure, they don't stack up in individual areas as compared to AAA's, but that's because they're not one. They've taken a chance to make something because they want to, and it is something that is within a realm of interest to me. The more of that, the better off we all are when we can have something to point to and say "It could/should be something like THAT, but with something like THIS".

I do like that Space has picked back up again, it has been a dry wasteland up until now. I do get that the downside of that is: that it is either feast or famine in terms of how things cycle in public perception and as a result, there is probably some over-saturation taking place. I do think that just makes it more important to fund projects like this, especially since at a base level, they're really not asking for a lot.

I hope they can make it, one way or another. If not now, I hope that they'll still find some way to continue that allows for them to continue working on their vision for this engine because it really has a lot of potential.
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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
I-Novae have reached the 300,000$ goal!
Sadly, it doesn't look too good for any of the stretch goals.

 
Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
That's a good thing. Stretch goals are where crowdfunded projects go to die.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Sushi

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Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
I tend to agree that once you get past the "but this doesn't make physical sense" mental block, the flight model of E:D is really well put together and very satisfying. Where it breaks the "Newtonian" model it does so for good gameplay reasons. The fact that "flight assist off" lets you drift in any direction but ALSO means you have to manually manage rotational correction is a particularly brilliant bit of design. It means that even when you've mastered the game, you have reasons to use both flight modes in and out of combat, rather than just "do everything manually" being the optimal strategy like it is in Star Citizen & Diaspora.

Back on topic, glad Infinity made it. Space sim renaissance hype train, whoo whoo!

 
Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
As I understand the flight model of Infinity, it seems somewhat similar to E:D (haven't played it yet). Most of the time, you fly with flight assist, so that it handles like most non-newtonian space sims. By pressing the space bar you can deactivate it and take full control over the ship's thrusters.

 
Re: Infinity: Battlescape to launch Kickstarter Campaign on Oct 21st
Yeah but the great thing about E:D's flight model is that it puts artificial constraints on your flight envelope that make the joust-and-turn dogfighting that plagues Star Citizen and, from the looks of it, Infinity much less effective.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.