Author Topic: Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?  (Read 4963 times)

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Offline Stryke 9

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
Um, you are aware that "geek" "dweeb" and so on aren't just synonyms. They all have thoroughly specified meanings developed from decades of use in our culture, and were you to regularly to have conversations with, you know, human beings rather than your "girlfriend" on The Sims, you'd know that. There's a reason I didn't just stick to the one word.

Also, there is no such thing as a "philosophy geek". You will never ever hear the term, and it's for the very simple reason that philosophy is not the sort of subject that falls into the aforementioned field. Same with music. They're culturally ascribed terms, dude, if you don't hear them used in that context more than once or twice by some retard they're not common currency and aren't proper usage. You can't make up your own definition just because it makes sense to you, personally, just like I can't ride an elephant down a major highway just because I feel like calling it a car. How clueless of you.

As for the rest, I think this
Quote
some reason, none of my relationships tends to last over three months, which is rather interesting, because the female friends, who are just friends, I've had for some 5-6 years or so

rests my case pretty thoroughly. Aside from the fact that, you know, you've so far completely failed to offer up a coherent alternate explanation, which is noteworthy in itself.

World War II allegory? You're grasping at straws, dude,  reeeeealy grasping. Any epic battle between absolute good and absolute evil could be claimed to be about WWII, if the author doesn't say anything more worth bothering with than that one would hope he's not trying to write about WWII.

Venom: Definition of "geek" aside, since neither your nor my definition properly fits, say, the techs who make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and still remain thorough geeks...

1. Yeah. Most of his mythology was far from original, but his usage was. Trendsetting doesn't necessitate mindlessness, and neither do dwarves and elves. If you can't say something meaningful in as complete a universe as he set the foundations for, you're just plain a ****ty writer.
2. And manages to make it thoroughly escapist. I refer you to Dune, dull as it was, which is at least as thorough and contains rampant allegories to the reason the mideast is so ****ed up, etc. It's not the only one, either. Most "universes" as thorough as Tolkein's have massive redeeming value and will leave you at least a little bit more intelligent or knowledgeable after having read it. After reading Lord of the Rings? You learn to speak Elvish, and maybe pretend to be a Level 3 Mage of Loud Trumping. Talk about a wasted investment. I'd say this is precisely why you don't see any Dune fans dressing up like Atreides and running around shouting about using a Stone Burner on you- it's relevant to reality, in exactly the same way LOTR and TV aren't.
3. Dude, have you ever read a good book in your life? Having a point doesn't necessitate droning on in some pretentious tone about the meaning of life. In fact, they're very nearly mutually exclusive. Read some Vonnegut, Kingsolver, Rubin, Remarque, Wilde, even Adams- hell, just glancing at my bookshelf, it's hard to find books other than Gibson's that are readable in the slightest and don't have a point somewhere. And they're all infinitely more readable than Tolkein's encyclopedic droning. Check out any random book in the library, even if it's in the children's section, and I can guarantee it'll have more relevance and be more gripping than Tolkein's literature. Ever read Orwell? Go ahead, try and say he's boring- guess what, every single ****ing word in most all of his work means something, and something absolutely important to this very day.

Tolkein's stuff has its place, but defending it as anything other than a possibly pleasant waste of time is to delude oneself. Once again, TV, but without all the frantic action that makes TV passably interesting. I happen to not like it on top of recognizing that it has no redeeming value, but the two are irrelevant- I find Gibson to have no redeeming value, and his stuff is fun as hell to read. Where'd this need to claim that everything we like is some profound intellectual pursuit, or even worth doing in the first place, come from anyway? Is it tax-deductible if it has social significance? Is there some minimum tally of "worthwhile things" you need to get done this month that you're slacking on?

 

Offline Nico

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
And then again, LOTR has a point as to being a book about life changing people. and also a half-allegory of the Second World War, as much as Prof. Tolkien denies it. And Venom, I seem to agree with you on the definition of geek, in the States at least, from what I've gathered on the internet. It has suddenly become a very large term (which is probably why noone older than 18, and an IQ over 60 uses it where I live). But that of course, kinda rules out Stryke's opinion that geeks are, I quote "dweebs, who don't like being reminded about the last time they got laid." So if we go by that definition, which I like, then Strykes opinion as to why there is no sex in LOTR, is effectively false. Because, I,  by Venom's definition am completely 100% geek - I take a great fancy in literature, arts, music, philosophy, etc. But I have no trouble with my love-life (aside from the autumn months, where I've dumped/been dumped by my latest girlfriend, again, because for some reason, none of my relationships tends to last over three months, which is rather interesting, because the female friends, who are just friends, I've had for some 5-6 years or so). If we take Stryke's definition of geek, then he is also wrong, because of my earlier post.


So.... In short, Stryke, you suck. :p

Hope that all made sense.


why did I feel out of breath reading that? :p

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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Dude, have you ever read a good book in your life?


By your standards, yes, I do. I'm out of a litteracy bachalaureat, I studied british and US litteracy during my english DEUG, I've read a friggin' amount of books when I was younger ( 4 novels a week at some point, just coz I "had to", probably some kids fancy ). I'm utterly fed up that you judge me because I like something you don't. I love Tolkien as I love Hugo: to the highest point, I like Herbert as I liked Maupassant , Lovecraft gives me the chills but I didn't looked down at Nicolas Gogol's books either, I enjoyed the Riverworld cycle by Philip José Farmer as much as Cervantes Don Quichote ( or whatever you spell it in english ). Hell, I even read Sophocles and loved Homere.
I'm astonished and sadened I have to write such a meaningless list just to show that I'm not an iliterate fool coz I like Tolkien.


I didn't read the rest of your post, I stopped at the sentence I quoted and:
You're too full of yourself, man ( voila, my blindful judgement of the day, I have to keep up with this forums level, after all ),  that's your biggest problem. There's no way I can discuss with you, it'll always end up the same way. Call me a coward if you want, but I'm backing up from that argument.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2003, 06:26:21 am by 83 »
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Offline icespeed

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
erm, this might be a really stupid thing to say at this point, but i'd just like to mention that im a girl, and i like LOTR, and im pretty sure im not a geek seeing as i have absolutely no skill in anything to do with technology.
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Offline Stryke 9

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
Venom: Dude, what can I say. You read "redeeming value" and translate that into "incredibly dull lengthy droning", I'm going to have to make a conclusion off of that. If you don't want to sound ignorant, don't talk like you are. Simple as that. And I'm not sure what you think name-dropping really gets you here, either.

This seems to actually be a regular card you play, come to think of it. I'm having trouble counting the times that, given a disagreement, you've acted completely obtuse and refused to even begin a thought as relates to what the other person is talking about, then come back screeching like a banshee when they got fed up or decided that you must be ignorant based on that. It's gimmicky, it's lame, it doesn't help you in any way, it's just plain irritating and makes you look like a fool or worse- cut it out or quit making posts. Seriously.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2003, 06:50:10 am by 262 »

 

Offline Nico

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
you've acted completely obtuse and refused to even begin a thought as relates to what the other person is talking about,


:wtf:  that's sounds utterly funny coming from you. How could I explain anything since in this discussion, YOU are the one who sets up the standards, who decide what is crap and what isn't. Obtuse, hey?
But I guess you're right on some point: I can't keep but replying when something is directed at me. I have to fix that, guess right now is a as good as a moment as another one to do so.
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Offline icespeed

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
and, um, not that i want to butt in here (which obviously ive already done so please dont point that out to me, stryke, im aware of it) it might be easier to discuss stuff with people if people don't use such accusative methods of speech. insults dont really help, unless you cant possibly avoid it... i mean, okay, we can all handle it, but that doesn't mean its compulsory.

this is a general purpose comment not intended for anyone in particular.
$quot;Let your light shine before men...$quot;
Matthew 5:16

When I graduate, I'm going to be a doctor, and people are going to come to me looking for treatment and prescription drugs, and I'm going to give it to them. Is anyone scared yet?

$quot;If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.$quot; Romans 10:9

 

Offline TrashMan

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
Stryke 9..... you suck big time!

I read tons of books of all kind (from dozens of diffenent encyclopedias, best-sellers, novels, 900 page russian books to god knows what not.) And I can tell you that Tolkien is allmost at the top of the food chain.
Depth? You can find depth in everything if you really try to(just look at modern art - a guy displys his ****(literary) on a piece of paper and wow - the critics proclaim it a work of art)

the simple truth is - people like LOTR not becoause it's fantasy or becoause they're geeks, but becoause it's a excellent book!
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Offline Stryke 9

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
Venom: "Read" involves your eyes actually reciving light input from the characters on the screen, and then your brain processing them into coherent thoughts.
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You read "redeeming value" and translate that into "incredibly dull lengthy droning"


This is basically exactly what you did in your reference to "complicated books with pulled from the ****hole logics and mind blowing psychocrap", as nobody had said a word about that before. You took the rather simple concept of "books whut mean stuff" and turned it into "Freud". That speaks volumes. Long, dull volumes of "psychocrap".

You can play the retard or you can play the horribly maligned voice of reason, you can't have it both ways. And that is the sole standard I set- any others are open to debate, as they have been this entire ****ing time, only nobody cared to do that, only talk about how books that aren't tripe have to be boring or an alternate poor definition of "geek".


Ice: When have I accused anybody of butting into something? Now, please, we're trying to have a flamewar here. :p


Trash: How... illuminating. "They like it 'cause it's good". Might wanna work on that one a bit, though.

Also, just because pretentious artsy types can find deeper meanings in a can of **** doesn't mean it's actually there. If the point is something you actually have to make a conscious effort to manufacture, it isn't there. If it could reasonably be anything, with little evidence of one particular meaning the author intended, it isn't there.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2003, 07:01:48 am by 262 »

 

Offline Nico

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
Stryke 9..... you suck big time!


still, that's uncalled for, you know :doubt:
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Offline icespeed

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
stryke, you didn't. i was anticipating you. :)

okay, so its not as easy as saying, lotr is good or bad. there are good things about it. the depth of imagination involved in creating the world probably deserves some merit, don't you agree? i'd say you'd find it hard put to produce anything of equal standard- imagination and detail wise.

on the other hand, it is quite long, filled with a lot of not necessarily necessary description (that was not definitive, dont pick on that) and it quite possibly doesn't have any meaning.

does that sum it up?
$quot;Let your light shine before men...$quot;
Matthew 5:16

When I graduate, I'm going to be a doctor, and people are going to come to me looking for treatment and prescription drugs, and I'm going to give it to them. Is anyone scared yet?

$quot;If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.$quot; Romans 10:9

 

Offline Stunaep

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Um, you are aware that "geek" "dweeb" and so on aren't just synonyms. They all have thoroughly specified meanings developed from decades of use in our culture, and were you to regularly to have conversations with, you know, human beings rather than your "girlfriend" on The Sims, you'd know that. There's a reason I didn't just stick to the one word.

Also, there is no such thing as a "philosophy geek". You will never ever hear the term, and it's for the very simple reason that philosophy is not the sort of subject that falls into the aforementioned field. Same with music. They're culturally ascribed terms, dude, if you don't hear them used in that context more than once or twice by some retard they're not common currency and aren't proper usage. You can't make up your own definition just because it makes sense to you, personally, just like I can't ride an elephant down a major highway just because I feel like calling it a car. How clueless of you.

 


Well, right then, excuse me for not knowing the damn definition of every american slang synonym, but unless you haven't noticed, I live in the other damn continent! And we've been speaking russian for 60 YEARS!. So I'm am so very sorry, that I don't interact with americans, who you seem to consider the synonym of 'people'  every day of my life, even if they are 20 000 kilometers away.  Now I understand that the states is filled with 60% of overweights, god knows how many racists, and, pardon if I use the wrong word here, geeks, but that doesn't mean that the rest of the world is excatly the same. As for your rather unappropriate comment involving something about "the Sims", "people", and "resting my case", I find it rather odd, seeing how I have a steady girlfriend right now, and hell, relationships between 15-year-olds rarely last for even that long.

Now, on to your comments about the actual subject, which is a welcome break from insulting everyone: In the WWII allegory, I pretty much had in mind the Orthanc-Fangorn thing, which kinda reflects what happened to Manchester at the time, when Tolkien was writing those books. And you don't make one of the greatest film trilogies ever, just on a book that is pointless and stupid.

And as for that comment:
Quote
Also, just because pretentious artsy types can find deeper meanings in a can of **** doesn't mean it's actually there. If the point is something you actually have to make a conscious effort to manufacture, it isn't there. If it could reasonably be anything, with little evidence of one particular meaning the author intended, it isn't there.


And exactly, how are you the english professor who has studied literature for 25 years, to actually say, if the author intended the deeper meaning or not. Just because you've read Dostoyevski once in your life, doesn't mean you're a literary genius (of course, neither am I, but that's a whole other story).

Oh, and Icespeed, I actually enjoyed those descriptions. I tend to like long detailed, poetic descriptions in books anyway, since they excite your imagination, in lack of a better term. But that's subjective.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2003, 08:00:32 am by 390 »
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Offline Singh

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
I havent read or seen the LOTR Books or movie yet, nor do I intend to.
It's not because I hate tolkien or anything - hell, I bet his books are fantastic reads (writing myself, I know how difficuld it can be t o create an entire universe at times) and what-not if i do decide to do so.
It's just that the Genre doesn't.....what is the word?.....interest me much. I find the whole fantasy genre a bit too over-done and as such, avoid it, sticking instead to science fiction. (again, this is mostly because i have a collection of 180 Star Trek books which i have read at least 3 times over)

No offense meant, but the previous posts reminded me of semi-flame wars. Well thought out and argued, but in the end, still arguments leading to nowhere.
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Offline Knight Templar

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Stu's rant of the day: What's with LOTR and homosexuality?
Well.. IMO, the latest (see last 10 - 20 years or so) year's Sci Fi books seem more or less the same as fantasy. Just replace dragons with Aliens, Space Ships with Horses and Lasers with Arrows.
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