[Flipside]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040525/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_military_11

My eye was drawn to the following statement :-

Similarly, the 1st Battalion of the 509th Infantry, which acts as the Opfor, or opposition force, for light infantry and special operations training at Fort Polk, La., is being called to Iraq, according to two Army officials who discussed the matter on condition of anonymity.


The 509th Infantry has not seen combat since World War II, although five members of the unit served as "pathfinders," or advance scouts, during the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites); two were killed and one was taken prisoner


I feel safer already......

[Rictor]

they's be runin' out of fodder to send.

They also used "mistaken" letters to get vets to re-enlist.

[aldo_14]

Well, at least they'll be used to be getting shot atr.....

[Gank]

Iirc, the red guys made complete and utter **** of blue force when they carried out a simulated attack of an unnamed persian gulf country so these guys mightnt be as useless as you think. I wouldnt be too critical of the 1991 performance, pathfinders operate well in advance of the front lines and iirc even the SAS had difficulty operating behind enemy lines then.

Good example though of how bad things have got and how stretched out the US military is atm.

[Flipside]

Training exercises are a different thing though Gank, they may well be hardened to being in the thick of battle. But they are also used to playing the guys who stand around huts and get their throats cut. People like that tend to be a little too jumpy for this kind of duty

I don't doubt the quality of the unit as a whole, but is it the sort of unit they really want to be sending to Iraq in the current political climate?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Gank
Iirc, the red guys made complete and utter **** of blue force when they carried out a simulated attack of an unnamed persian gulf country so these guys mightnt be as useless as you think. I wouldnt be too critical of the 1991 performance, pathfinders operate well in advance of the front lines and iirc even the SAS had difficulty operating behind enemy lines then.

Good example though of how bad things have got and how stretched out the US military is atm.

Hmm....fair point - if they're fighting 'against' the US military regularly, then they'll be more used to not having to rely on hi-tech gadgetry, I'd imagine.  i.e. they'll have actually fought in a fair fight where they don't have a gigantic edge.

Just not a real fight.

[Gank]

Originally posted by Flipside
But they are also used to playing the guys who stand around huts and get their throats cut. People like that tend to be a little too jumpy for this kind of duty  

Huh? I think you've been watching too many films. These guys talk part in shooting war exercises, not play the bad guys in delta force films.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,786992,00.html
The specific exercise I was reffering too

[SadisticSid]

How is this any different from calling up reservists who've never seen a day's combat in their lives? I would have thought *any* experience in whatever form is better than none at all.

[Flipside]

Within his ever narrowing constraints, Van Riper continued to make a nuisance of himself, harrying Blue forces with an arsenal of unorthodox tactics, until one day, on July 29, he thinks, he found his orders to his subordinate officers were not being listened to any more. They were being countermanded by the control group. So Van Riper quit. "I stayed on to give advice, but I stopped giving orders. There was no real point any more," he says.

His subordinates are not him, he was the mastermind, and even then, when he tried to think like the enemy, his bosses wouldn't have it. I hope I'm wrong, but I guess only time will tell

And the standing round waiting for throats to be cut thing was a metaphor

[Gank]

Originally posted by SadisticSid
How is this any different from calling up reservists who've never seen a day's combat in their lives? I would have thought *any* experience in whatever form is better than none at all.

The point here would not be that they're calling up inexperienced troops, but that the're calling up experienced troops, and scraping the bottom of the barrel for them. The fact that these guys are being sent instead of some of the 30 odd national guard brigades undeployed is a good indicator of what the pentagon thinks is ahead.

Flipside, these guys train the army to fight the likes of Iraqis, they're not a poor choice to send, they're one of the best units you could send.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Gank


The point here would not be that they're calling up inexperienced troops, but that the're calling up experienced troops, and scraping the bottom of the barrel for them. The fact that these guys are being sent instead of some of the 30 odd national guard brigades undeployed is a good indicator of what the pentagon thinks is ahead.

Flipside, these guys train the army to fight the likes of Iraqis, they're not a poor choice to send, they're one of the best units you could send.

That's a fair point, but these guys aren't being sent to use those tactics - I'd hardly expect some sudden change of tact in terms of how the Us operates, this is just basically more manpower.  

Even if these guys are trained to fight like Iraqis - and maybe think like them - they aren't really going to be able to use that much.

The problem is, i guess, that no-one - not the US, the Uk, or any of the other bit players in this sorry mess - can really send an effective fighting force due to the whole nature of the conflict.  It's a guerilla war, and so long as even a small percentage of the Iraqi populace is offering support & sanction, it'll be near impossible to stop it.

[kasperl]

Well, yeah, not all that disturbing.

Meanwhile, our papers our full of sending out 6 Apache helicopters to Iraq to aid our 1100 soldiers there......

[Gank]

They mightnt be sent to use the tactics aldo, but they are more familiar with the tactics than any other US unit and that will give them an edge in combat. Not really all that relevant to us strategy though, theres only a brigade of them. The main thing is why they're sending them, not who they're sending.

[Flipside]

I must admit, I'm still laughing everytime I read that article you posted

[Gregster2k]

Goddamnit, the military is evil, I swear to god. All too often I see Navy, Marine, Army, and National Guard recruitment suits at my high school, advertising with t-shirts, pens, mugs, watches, etc. on a regular basis. It's SICKENING, especially since I've noticed that they are around my high school a LOT more since the whole damn Iraq war started. They just want more fresh meat to train, give guns, and ship to Iraq. Damn bastards!

[Janos]

Originally posted by Gregster2k
Goddamnit, the military is evil, I swear to god. All too often I see Navy, Marine, Army, and National Guard recruitment suits at my high school, advertising with t-shirts, pens, mugs, watches, etc. on a regular basis. It's SICKENING, especially since I've noticed that they are around my high school a LOT more since the whole damn Iraq war started. They just want more fresh meat to train, give guns, and ship to Iraq. Damn bastards!

OMG THE MILITARY NEEDS MORE CANNON FODDER*

*accuse your administration's foreign policy, not the military.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Gank
They mightnt be sent to use the tactics aldo, but they are more familiar with the tactics than any other US unit and that will give them an edge in combat. Not really all that relevant to us strategy though, theres only a brigade of them. The main thing is why they're sending them, not who they're sending.

Well, I dunno.  weren;t they trained to act as an enemy - i.e. use what they considered the most effective tactics - rather than try and mimic the exact tactics the Iraqis would use? Is there even an effective military way to guard against random ambushes and roadside bombs?