[Fury]

This feature has been missing for a long time due to the disappearance of RandomTiger. Could someone get this feature implemented? It shouldn't be difficult since pcx compression is already done, right?

[DaBrain]

What exactly does it do?

[Taristin]

Umm... You want them to make the JPG/TGA's convert to DDS on the fly?  Not good. If you want DDS, make DDS textures. Converting on the fly will only be trouble.

And especially, if your PC cannot handle PCX textures, you shouldn't even be looking at the TGA ones.

[Carl]

If your PC cannot handle PCX textures then you couldn't even play the game in the first place.

[DaBrain]

Yeah I agree.


TGA->DDS will increase the loading time.

JPG->DDS will increase the loading time even more.

[Taristin]

Originally posted by Carl
If your PC cannot handle PCX textures then you couldn't even play the game in the first place.

Well, yeah. But this request is an extension of the pcx compres code which compresses PCX textures into DDS textures. And they want it to include targa for some odd reason. WHy they don't just make DDS maps like lighty's been doing is beyond me...

[Fury]

1. Adding DDS textures would probably override jpg/tga ones, not good for those who have enough video ram to stick with uncompressed textures.
2. In most cases jpg/tga textures converted to dds are of better quality than pcx's.
3. I want to stay clear of optional low-quality-something downloads.
4. Loading time increase is insignificant, if it bothers you, don't use the feature.
I'd rather get rid of pcx completely and have compressed jpg/tga textures option available for those who have low video memory.

[DaBrain]

The loading time should increase a lot.

I know that. I'm running a more or less high-end system, and still the DDS conversion in the software I use takes a some time.
Well might, be one sec for a 512² map, but with the multitude of maps in TBP, it'll add some minutes to the loading time.

And keep in mind DDS conversion will srew up maps that to not use the power of two.



But don't understand me wrong. I think we should use DDS for our maps. (Not for the effects though)
This is just the wrong way of implementation.

BTW if we're going to use env mapping later, we'll need DXT5 for the shine maps, while I suggest to use S3TC for the main map (half size).


I think it's a better idea to add a DDS converter to the installer. (Dunno if this is possible though.) So user can choose which maps will be used.
Well, we'd have to open the VP file for this probably...
If this is possible it's a better option, I think.

But there might be a better one.

[Taristin]

Originally posted by Mr. Fury
1. Adding DDS textures would probably override jpg/tga ones, not good for those who have enough video ram to stick with uncompressed textures.

Yes, but you say this as if DDS textures are low quality, when most are not. The quality is only diminished on maps with of colour gradients... Otherwise, DDS works fine.

[DaBrain]

DDS has another problem. It does not like clear lines. They'll end up in compression artifacts.

It's not that bad. But some maps will look worse. Like the Hyperion shine map. Which has very clear lines.


BTW you can reduce any sideffect of the compression by using a bigger map. You'll probably still save memory.

[WMCoolmon]

Maybe we should change the loading order, so that DDSes are looked for after TGAs?

[taylor]

Originally posted by Mr. Fury
1. Adding DDS textures would probably override jpg/tga ones, not good for those who have enough video ram to stick with uncompressed textures.

Load order is TGA -> JPG -> DDS -> PCX.  It will always look for image formats in that order so DDS is only used if TGA or JPG versions don't exist.

Just realized that's an error though since without the -jpgtga option it's DDS -> PCX.  16-bit TGA should still be usable even if -jpgtga isn't on the cmdline.  I'll have to fix that.  Think of it as TGA -> JPG -> DDS -> PCX -> TGA(16-bit).

2. In most cases jpg/tga textures converted to dds are of better quality than pcx's.

Don't convert from JPG to DDS since the quality will be even worse.  The results of compressing somthing that's already compressed are never pretty.  Starting with TGA and compressing to DDS yourself will always yield better results since you get to make the performance/quality tradeoff rather than having it made for you and getting unexpected results.

3. I want to stay clear of optional low-quality-something downloads.

Certainly the right of anyone who makes/releases the art.  Using DDS over JPG though will save a considerable amount of memory and processing time while not being that much different quality wise.  You still get the quality when using it but at memory and processing requirements that are equal to, if not less than, using PCX.

4. Loading time increase is insignificant, if it bothers you, don't use the feature.

It's not initial load time that's the problem.  The conversion to DDS is done on the fly so when something is sent to the video card it's compressed.  That means that if you've got a mission in which you have more textures than can fit in video card memory at one time, it's going to swap them out and keep compressing as it goes.  So the entire game slows down while your playing and that is significant.  Also remember that video card memory is used for various buffers and all of the model data so with a 128meg video card you *may* get 100meg of textures in there per mission.

I'd rather get rid of pcx completely and have compressed jpg/tga textures option available for those who have low video memory.

You can make use of 16-bit TGA which is something I don't think anyone has realized.  It's going to use the same amount of memory as a PCX in-game but actually have all of the color space available.  You can make a true color version of a TGA and then use something like PSP to convert it to 16-bit color.  If it looks good then you just cut the memory size of your image in half without sacrificing quality.  Plus 16-bit TGAs don't require the use of the -jpgtga cmdline option to be used so you don't have to include PCX versions for the lowest common denominator.  Those same files can be used for interface art as well.  Just make all of your main images that 16-bit TGA format and leave the masks as PCX and it will work fine and look great.