Author Topic: Humans are a plague...or so it seems  (Read 2333 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
@ Bobboau - normal evolution? I don't recall a single species ever being responsible for the destruction of so many others.

You call that evolution, natural progress? I call that human stupidity and arrogance.
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Offline Cannikin

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


What makes you think a lack of ozone would be bad for life?  IIRC, radiation is good for stimulating mutation and thus evolution; even a nuclear war wouldn't destroy life.


Yes, a lack of ozone will be bad for life universally. You don't seem to realize what radiation does and why mutation is a side effect.

Radiation is harmful because it destroys genetic material (DNA, RNA), breaking it apart. Low levels and short term exposure to radiation causes minor damage and the DNA can be reassembled with few errors. Moderate exposure causes more severe damage and usually a few dangerous errors occur such as certain tissue becoming cancerous. Prolonged and intense exposure to high intensity radiation will cause irrovocable destruction to the DNA and thus result in death. This is why the practice of irradiating materials to sterilize them is so effective.

Now any mutations that occur are due to moderate and relatively short exposure. Now this effect is usually highly different for each exposed area. It is impossible for all parts of a large, multicellular organism to experience the same level exposure to a single source of radiation (the skin will always get hit with more than internal organs), and the likelyhood that all cells' DNA will be subject to the same level of destruction and reassembled exactly the same way with exactly the same errors is next to zilch. And because germ cells (reproductive cells) are far more susceptible to radiation than normal body cells, high intensity radiation will cause sterility. So in summary, in a nuclear warzone, you're not gonna find a bunch of Godzillas running around, you'll just find a lot of dead bodies (which is the concept behind the neutron bomb, a nuclear weapon specifically designed to maximize the release of high intensity radiation to the surrounding environment).

Now today the ozone filters out the vast majority of ultraviolet radiation from the sun (think the figure was around to 97 or more %). This tiny level that eventually reaches the surface is enough to cause sunburns and skin cancer in humans after just a few hours of exposure. Now with the complete depletion of the ozone, we're talking 12 hours a day, every day for the next 5 billion years (or really 4 billion cause then the sun will swell up to a red giant and swallow the Earth) of exposure to virtually unmitigated solar radiation. All life on the surface will die, unless it happens to be hiding all the time under several meters of lead. As long as DNA is the genetic material of life, there's no two ways about it: life is dead on the surface. Under full exposure to the sun's radiation, even life in the ocean will eventually be dealt a lethal dose. Hell, even electronics would be eventually destroyed unless specially shielded (satellites and space probes have a limited life span, even with continuous power, because the radiation levels outside our atmosphere eventually cause damage in the electronic systems). The only survivors will be the bacteria that live deep underground, with hundreds and thousands of feet of rock to shield them, and these bacteria don't seem to be in a hurry to be moving anywhere or evolving (iirc, these underground bacteria are essentially the exact same as they were billions of years ago).

So, yeah, that's why I think a lack of ozone would be Bad(tm) for life. As for nuclear war, the primary theorized effect is the same as the asteroid scenario: so much debris and dust is thrown into the atmosphere that sunlight is considerably diminished, causing plant life to die and follows that all herbivores die and thus all carnivores die. The radiation contamination is just the finishing blow. Though in this case, only those at the very surface would die. Creatures living at the bottom of the ocean would escape relatively unscathed (unless everyone decided to drop tens of thousands of nuclear depth charges to the bottom of the ocean).

Anyway, that's all the most extreme case. I doubt even we would be that oblivious to let the ozone layer be completely destroyed or let Bush blow up the planet so there's nothing left. BUt it would still be Bad(tm).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 04:37:17 am by 783 »

 

Offline Nuke

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
Quote
Originally posted by Cannikin


Yes, a lack of ozone will be bad for life universally. You don't seem to realize what radiation does and why mutation is a side effect.

Radiation is harmful because it destroys genetic material (DNA, RNA), breaking it apart. Low levels and short term exposure to radiation causes minor damage and the DNA can be reassembled with few errors. Moderate exposure causes more severe damage and usually a few dangerous errors occur such as certain tissue becoming cancerous. Prolonged and intense exposure to high intensity radiation will cause irrovocable destruction to the DNA and thus result in death. This is why the practice of irradiating materials to sterilize them is so effective.

Now any mutations that occur are due to moderate and relatively short exposure. Now this effect is usually highly different for each exposed area. It is impossible for all parts of a large, multicellular organism to experience the same level exposure to a single source of radiation (the skin will always get hit with more than internal organs), and the likelyhood that all cells' DNA will be subject to the same level of destruction and reassembled exactly the same way with exactly the same errors is next to zilch. And because germ cells (reproductive cells) are far more susceptible to radiation than normal body cells, high intensity radiation will cause sterility. So in summary, in a nuclear warzone, you're not gonna find a bunch of Godzillas running around, you'll just find a lot of dead bodies (which is the concept behind the neutron bomb, a nuclear weapon specifically designed to maximize the release of high intensity radiation to the surrounding environment).

Now today the ozone filters out the vast majority of ultraviolet radiation from the sun (think the figure was around to 97 or more %). This tiny level that eventually reaches the surface is enough to cause sunburns and skin cancer in humans after just a few hours of exposure. Now with the complete depletion of the ozone, we're talking 12 hours a day, every day for the next 5 billion years (or really 4 billion cause then the sun will swell up to a red giant and swallow the Earth) of exposure to almost all the sun's radiation. All life on the surface will die, unless it happens to be hiding all the time under several meters of lead. As long as DNA is the genetic material of life, there's no two ways about it: life is dead on the surface. Under full exposure to the sun's radiation, even life at the bottom of the ocean will eventually be dealt a lethal dose. Hell, even electronics would be eventually destroyed unless specially shielded (satellites and space probes have a limited life span, even with continuous power, because the radiation levels outside our atmosphere eventually cause damage in the electronic systems). The only survivors will be the bacteria that live deep underground, with hundreds and thousands of feet of rock to shield them, and these bacteria don't seem to be in a hurry to be moving anywhere or evolving (iirc, these underground bacteria are essentially the exact same as they were billions of years ago).

So, yeah, that's why I think a lack of ozone would be Bad(tm) for life. As for nuclear war, the primary theorized effect is the same as the asteroid scenario: so much debris and dust is thrown into the atmosphere that sunlight is considerably diminished, causing plant life to die and follows that all herbivores die and thus all carnivores die. The radiation contamination is just the finishing blow. Though in this case, only those at the very surface would die. Creatures living at the bottom of the ocean would escape relatively unscathed (unless everyone decided to drop tens of thousands of nuclear depth charges to the bottom of the ocean).


sounds like a plan lets do it. :D really i dont know why you went to such trouble to type all that. its all obvious and partially innacurate. like the thing about the water. nuclear material may be stored beneath 12 feet of water and you could walr around above the tank without radiation gear and be pretty safe. without an ozone you would probibly harm only near surface spiecies. like marine mamals. the ozone itself works the same way, but its much less denser than water, and is probibly a thick chunk of gas.

none the less theres nothing you can do. this thing called free will doesnt exist. humans operate on instinct. technology is a natural evolution. we are set to forever execute the same continuous cycles and patterns that lies at the core oif the universal construct. this thing called change does not exist. its just the pattern progressing to the next stage, intime it will repeat itself.  i am a man of vision, i see nothing:D

for ****s and giggles, sweet spots to drop nuclear weapons:

the eastern shore of greenland-because it would release fresh water right into the a major underwater current, thus stoping in and really screwing up global weather

san andreas fault line-ever seen that superman movie

antarctica-penguin bbq/flood the earth

any overopulated urban center-for some serious body count
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Offline aldo_14

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
Quote
Originally posted by Cannikin


Yes, a lack of ozone will be bad for life universally. You don't seem to realize what radiation does and why mutation is a side effect.

(snip)


As long as DNA is the genetic material of life, of course.  

Of course, as you pointed out, life would still exist in the worst case scenario (assuming 100% ozone depletion would be the min required to kill humanity, which I doubt); underground bacteria is still life.  (also I'd note that IIRC there have been several documented asteroid impacts, responsible for mass extinction and ice age, but life still exists).

I believe our capacity to exterminate ourselves far outweighs our ability to inflict a life-destroying doomsday scenario, anyways. Like you said, even in the worst case of 100% ozone depletion and global themonuclear war+fallout+winter, life would still exist; that's what I mean.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 05:04:02 am by 181 »

 

Offline Bobboau

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
Quote
Originally posted by TrashMan
@ Bobboau - normal evolution? I don't recall a single species ever being responsible for the destruction of so many others.

You call that evolution, natural progress? I call that human stupidity and arrogance.


because any event of that nature is always blamed on us, and the fosil record doesn't have the resolution for such minor details, but there is evedence of single speciese makeing world wide changes in most populations (you obviusly didn't look up Anomalocaris). think of all the intorduced animals that run amuck because they have no preditors or are able to tap some food suply that has bult up an imunity to the natives only. it's the _exact_ same behavior.
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Offline Cannikin

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
Yeah, I was kind of off on the ocean thing. Looked it up and found water is a better shield against radiation than I thought it was, but ionizing radiation from the sun would still penetrate to a few hundred or thousand feet. Life within this layer would die and any nosy life at the bottom that decides to evolve and take a journey up to the surface will get fried.

As for how stupid humans can get, I just thought of a scenario where some country decides that their new super weapon would be missiles that disperse ozone destroying chemicals over their enemy country!

And if you think that post was long and unnecessary, you should've seen the post(s) that earned me my title. :p

 

Offline aldo_14

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
How many extinctions have/can be attributed to Anomalocaris, though?  I was under the impression that (many of?) the extinctions were attributed to the Permian extinction (and the subsequent changes in life attributed as much to those phenotypes - or is it phyla? - which survived said extinction as to any dominant predator).

I'm not that there has ever been, on a global scale, an animal with the ability humanity has to shape and alter its surroundings.

 

Offline Nuke

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
people should be on fire :D
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Unknown Target

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
Even if we had no ozone and a nuclear fallout, humans would still be here. Whether or not they'd want to be is a different question, but humans are adaptable and I think they'd find some way of squeezing out a meeger living.

  

Offline Nico

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Humans are a plague...or so it seems
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
I believe our capacity to exterminate ourselves far outweighs our ability to inflict a life-destroying doomsday scenario, anyways. Like you said, even in the worst case of 100% ozone depletion and global themonuclear war+fallout+winter, life would still exist; that's what I mean.


Who gives a damn about such life?
I don't want to be extinct, be extinct, you :p
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