Author Topic: War in the Middle-East?  (Read 792 times)

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Offline Sandwich

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War in the Middle-East?
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/syriaisraeliranwarun7551021.html

I've been out of the news loop, but this story was headlined on my personalized Google frontpage... I heard something about "them" concluding that the former Syrian prez was murdered by the govt, but I don't know any details...
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline IceFire

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When I read the BBC headline I was a bit worried about a potential agressive U.S. action...I hadn't thought about Israel per say...but I guess its a possibility.

Something will happen...I think the status quo will not remain for much longer. Internally or externally...
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Offline aldo_14

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Crikey, that story is literally braying for war.

Having read another 'news' story there, they're also full of ****e, because that is a complete lie.

I don't think it's sensible to start a war based on accusations, myself.  Even if guilty, I'm not sure it's worth the inevitable civillian - innocent - deaths.   From the sounds of the bbc report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4365236.stm), Syria is being isolated by it's neighbours and the UN.  I think that's the better, more sensible (dare I say humane?) way to got about it rather than a costly, bloody war which no-one can afford to wage.

 

Offline IceFire

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There is also this story.

"Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the kingdom of idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."
- Londo Mollari

Seemed appropriate :D
- IceFire
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Offline vyper

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[q]His expelling of Saddam Hussein's relatives this week will not save him from the same fate for which Saddam finds himself in today - facing criminal charges in an open, democratic court.[/q]

Tee Hee, they made a funny!
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Offline Rictor

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Re: War in the Middle-East?
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/syriaisraeliranwarun7551021.html

I've been out of the news loop, but this story was headlined on my personalized Google frontpage... I heard something about "them" concluding that the former Syrian prez was murdered by the govt, but I don't know any details...


Wait, who? Hafez Assad (or did you mean Lebanese Prez)? Could be. But listen, it's Lebanon. OK, granted, things have been pretty calm in recent years, but it's not like they're virgins to the er, bloodier aspects of politics.

In any case, I don't see how that affects Israel, or rather I don't see how that affects Israel in any new or surprising ways. Syria doesn't like you, and you don't like them. Hariri's murder doesn't change that. The way I see it, Bashar Assad will fall to an internal coup, in which case there's really no telling who would take power, they could be real hardliners, or he'll stay in power in which case the US, UN and Israel can't touch him, short of an invasion. The recent suicide of a high ranking minister does seem to suggest that something "is up", but at this point I don't see how anyone (aside from maybe Mossad) can know what's going on, much less make any plans.

 

Offline vyper

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*wonders what MI5 are up to these days...*
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Offline Rictor

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They're training the new Bond. You think all those mad skillz just come from nowhere?

 

Offline Sandwich

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I must admit, the article's headline took me by surprise; I posted this thread because such things tend to get summarized rather nicely on HLP, vs. wading through report after article on the situation. Call me lazy. :D

Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Having read another 'news' story there, they're also full of ****e, because that is a complete lie.


Heh, that article is a bit confusing in what they're trying to say I think. Is it that BBC/Reuters don't use the word "terrorist"? A Google site search proves that wrong, with ~275k results.

Are they harping on the fact that those agencies still define acts of terror as having been performed by "militants", "gunman", or "freedom fighters"? I think this summary is more accurate, but to prove it right or wrong would require one to read as many articles as one wanted to use as a statistical basis, and see how many times an act that is called an act of terror is stated to have been carried out y militants, gunmen, or freedom fighters. Not a small task.

All that aside, I believe the point they are trying to make is still a valid one: how should terrorism be defined? I also believe that they arrive at a very balanced conclusion - that terrorism is an act of violence carried out "theatrically", so that the actual damage caused by the bullets or explosion is far outweighed by the increased level of fear and terror the news of the act causes in the general public.

Which brings up an interesting thought study: what would happen to terrorism worldwide if there were no news reports on any terrorist acts? Nobody except the few thousand people in direct contact with the act would know about it (ignoring word-of-mouth for the moment) - fear and terror would not spread far at all.

Would it separate the terrorists from those who are fighting for their freedom? No, but that's an invalid comparison, as one does not necessarily exclude the other. Some groups whose goals are achieving their freedom use terrorist methods to achieve those goals, others do not.

A possibly inflammatory example of a group using non-terrorist methods to achieve a freedom of sorts (not necessarily their own state, but another type of freedom) is the gay movement. Except for among the homophobic population, gays aren't exactly striking fear into the hearts of men. ;) But they are battling for equal rights, freedom, whatever you want to call it.

Now compare those who use methods of terrorism to achieve their freedom. They are also freedom fighters, but their goals do not justify their means. Should they continue to be labelled "freedom fighters" when they walk the path of terror?
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
All that aside, I believe the point they are trying to make is still a valid one: how should terrorism be defined? I also believe that they arrive at a very balanced conclusion - that terrorism is an act of violence carried out "theatrically", so that the actual damage caused by the bullets or explosion is far outweighed by the increased level of fear and terror the news of the act causes in the general public.


By that definition you yourself are a member of a terrorist organisation then. Israel's retaliatory rocket attacks on Hamas could easily fit that definition. The whole point of them is to scare the general palestinian public into being scared of the reprisals that follow a suicide bombing.


I think your definition needs some work.
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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


By that definition you yourself are a member of a terrorist organisation then. Israel's retaliatory rocket attacks on Hamas could easily fit that definition. The whole point of them is to scare the general palestinian public into being scared of the reprisals that follow a suicide bombing.


I think your definition needs some work.


:wtf: The whole point of retaliation (against terrorist infrastructure, mind you) is to state to Hamas, let's say, that they cannont wantonly target our civilians. If we wanted to wage a war of terror on the Palestinians, to scare the general Palestinian public into anything, we could easily make them the target, not the Hamas.

Reminds me of that law in the US. If you attack someone with an unloaded shotgun (or any such weapon, I assume), using it to buldegon that person over the head with, it's attempted murder. The same attack, but carried out with a loaded shotgun, is aggravated assault. Why? Because the attacker with the loaded shotgun could have shot the victim had he wanted to kill him.

A similar situation exists with Israel. We have the means to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the planet, if we so desired. Retaliation from Arab nations would not faze us; if we were already willing to commit genocide, we'd have no compunctions about "merely" nuking any Arab nation that attacked us.

So. We're not out to "scare" the Palestinian public. :rolleyes: We could do that, quite easily, and a helluva lot more effectively, if we wanted to. But we don't. So quit spouting nonsense.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 
its the former lebanese pm that was assasinated remember? and everyone thought syriya was involved.

 

Offline vyper

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich



So. We're not out to "scare" the Palestinian public. :rolleyes: We could do that, quite easily, and a helluva lot more effectively, if we wanted to. But we don't. So quit spouting nonsense.


Really? They already live with the fear that any day you could roll over Palestinian territories, wipe them out and be home before the Syrians or Egyptians responded - so what else could you scare them with?
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
:wtf: The whole point of retaliation (against terrorist infrastructure, mind you) is to state to Hamas, let's say, that they cannont wantonly target our civilians.  


Yet you don't bother to actually figure out who in Hamas was responsible. You simply figure out who is the easiest to strike and shoot them. You're not meting out justice by doing that as you have little idea whether the person you're shooting is responsible.

The goal isn't just to scare Hamas. I'm sure that is one of the goals but I seriously doubt it's the only one. If that was the only goal Mossad would carry out assassinations instead with far less collateral damage and much better chance of it looking like natural causes.
 The other goal is to scare anyone who's thinking of joining up. People who are in the general public. People who do believe in their goals but aren't members. It's to pursuade people to make sure that their children don't become suicide bombers because they are scared of the retribution not because of the thought of losing their children.

Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
If we wanted to wage a war of terror on the Palestinians, to scare the general Palestinian public into anything, we could easily make them the target, not the Hamas.


No you couldn't. You say that all the time as if it were true but it's not. Israel has precious little support in the world. Were they to do that they'd have none at all. Even America would have to turn their back on you. For all you claim it I doubt any Israeli goverment would be willing to lose the billions of dollars of support they get from the US. Not to mention the fact that the UN could santion Israel the second the US stopped vetoing every single resolution to do it.

Spare me the "We could wipe out the palestinians" card. It's like the "We could nuke China" argument. Sure you could but you'd suffer unimaginably bad concequences as a result so no one is ever going to try it.
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