[Deepblue]

Has anyone in this thread pointed out that the video warns of the levees being TOPPED, and Bush said they never expected them being BREACHED?

Damn, I geuss logic evades people these days...

It is pretty pathetic to drag this out and go "OMG, zeh liar killar face!"

[WeatherOp]

You do realise that he didn't have all that many options below a state level. Sure, Nagin shouldn't be completely void of blame, but you can't simply ignore that collossal f***-up at the Federal level, which wasn't helped by Bush going on Television following Nagin's criticism of the Federal response, and effectively going "No way, man. Your city, your fault."

Anyway, why would he be punished? Seriously, he's copped some heat for the busses-sitting-idle fiasco, but do you honestly expect him to be thrown in jail or fined for a f***-up that was obviously collaborative all the way up to the White House.

Yet, it is very easy to see, it wouldn't been such a huge messup if Nagin had got the poeple out like he was suposed to.

You'd have a flooded ruined city rather than a flooded, ruined anarchy.  There's a multitude of responsibility, of course.

Reportedly the failure to evacuate was partially down to the results of an evacuation in 2004 when there was no 'hit'.  That's not an excuse, of course - it does raise the question IMO whether disaster response/anticipation should always be in political hands, though (how you'd replace it in some fair way that didn't pander to reelection nor fail to represent peoples' wishes in terms of priorities, is another question).

Exactly, I'm not saying that Bush shouldn't take some of the blame, but there are of other people should take a good bit of the blame as well.

The reason for the poor evacuation I think is the fact that the mayor didn't order them until 24 hours before Kat came in, I remember watching live stream of NO sunday night and still seeing the roads packed. Now I know you will not get all those to leave, but I would scare them to death to get them out. Like I've said on other forums, I would rather overwarn and get shreaded after the thing missed than underwarn and know that I could have saved thousands of lives.

The thing is this was a total failure on all levels, Local, State and Federal. And they lucked that it didn't happen like it could have.

[aldo_14]

Has anyone in this thread pointed out that the video warns of the levees being TOPPED, and Bush said they never expected them being BREACHED?

Damn, I geuss logic evades people these days...

It is pretty pathetic to drag this out and go "OMG, zeh liar killar face!"

Um.... isn't the whole point regarding the lack of proper preparation and reaction for a flooded city, rather than how the levees became useless? (NB: part of the breach problem was apparently due to levee subsidence/settling, the funds for correcting which were cut - for example, the 17th Street Canal was breached and sat 4 feet lower than the rest of the levee system). 

In any case, it is rather pathetic, IMO, to excuse the lack of response and planning for a national disaster pertaining to a flooded, below sea level city with the excuse that it was flooded in a different way to that they were warned might happen.   In other words, they were warned there could be disasterous flooding due to the hurricanes' storm surge, which is key.

(NB: breaching can refer to any way in which the 'security' of the levee system as a barrier was broken, anyways; it's not even a clear cut semantic meaning)

EDIT;
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/july-dec05/levees_10-20.html

While most of the levees were overtopped, his computer models told him that water did not go over the top of the levees at the 17th Street or at the London Canals, which would mean there was another reason for the levee breaks.

Note the topped part.  So the warning was correct, anyways.

Exactly, I'm not saying that Bush shouldn't take some of the blame, but there are of other people should take a good bit of the blame as well.

The reason for the poor evacuation I think is the fact that the mayor didn't order them until 24 hours before Kat came in, I remember watching live stream of NO sunday night and still seeing the roads packed. Now I know you will not get all those to leave, but I would scare them to death to get them out. Like I've said on other forums, I would rather overwarn and get shreaded after the thing missed than underwarn and know that I could have saved thousands of lives.

The thing is this was a total failure on all levels, Local, State and Federal. And they lucked that it didn't happen like it could have.

 They're lucky there still is a city, even though they've seemingly failed to rebuild or even clean up the mess.  Unfortunately you can't trust politicians with important things like peoples' lives, it seems. 

[WeatherOp]

 They're lucky there still is a city, even though they've seemingly failed to rebuild or even clean up the mess.  Unfortunately you can't trust politicians with important things like peoples' lives, it seems. 

Yeah, I heard something on the news that really made me sick.

As you probley know, NO just got over with Mardi Gras, and then they tell on the News there are still sections without power and water.

And I really don't get it, I know they tried to lift their spirits with Mardi Gras, but wouldn't all your people having power and running water be more important then a big party?

They said they would have the levees back to pre-Kat strength before HS 2006, but at the pace they are going they will not have it done.

[Ford Prefect]

Practical measures aren't always the best morale-boosters. Sometimes you just have to let people have fun in order to keep them going, even though it's not the most productive activity.

[perihelion]

From a practical engineering perspective, they can't get the levees back to pre-Katrina integrity before hurricane season starts.  They really need to face facts and either re-locate or abandon New Orleans altogether.  Building a city in the middle of a flood-plain right next to the largest river in North America some 20 odd feet below sea-level (and the water level of said river) is stupid.  Perhaps the people who originally built the town couldn't have been expected to know any better.  Certainly that excuse is no longer applicable.

New Orleans was home to many people who lost virtually everything.  On top of everyone who died, that is a tragedy.  Trying to rebuild there is just going to get more people killed.  As others have pointed out, New Orleans got lucky in many respects with the way Katrina came ashore.  Seriously, this is about as inteligent as rebuilding in the shadow of Mt. Vesuvius.  You KNOW that one day it is going to up and blow.  On that day, no amount of preparation is going to be enough.

[Nix]

You do realise that he didn't have all that many options below a state level. Sure, Nagin shouldn't be completely void of blame, but you can't simply ignore that collossal f***-up at the Federal level, which wasn't helped by Bush going on Television following Nagin's criticism of the Federal response, and effectively going "No way, man. Your city, your fault."

Anyway, why would he be punished? Seriously, he's copped some heat for the busses-sitting-idle fiasco, but do you honestly expect him to be thrown in jail or fined for a f***-up that was obviously collaborative all the way up to the White House.

You're making it sound like I want Nagin to take ALL responsibility.  He had the ability to move people, and didn't.  Kept begging the govt for more and more help.  In a time of national disaster, people should do whatever is necessary to ensure the safety of the people, WITHOUT wating for the dammned government to step in and take care of it.  What I'm saying is that he should have done whatever he could to get those people out and away with the busses he had, instead of letting them sit there! I'm in no position to say what should happen to him, but surely he deserves more than what he got.

Why should he be punished?  If a leader cannot make the right decisions when it comes to people's lives, get him out of power.  Nagin demonstrated that he didnt make the correct decision at the correct time.  So many people are so quick to jump up and scream "IMPEACH BUSH" cause of these same exact decisions, why does it not apply with Nagin?

[aldo_14]

From a practical engineering perspective, they can't get the levees back to pre-Katrina integrity before hurricane season starts.  They really need to face facts and either re-locate or abandon New Orleans altogether.  Building a city in the middle of a flood-plain right next to the largest river in North America some 20 odd feet below sea-level (and the water level of said river) is stupid.  Perhaps the people who originally built the town couldn't have been expected to know any better.  Certainly that excuse is no longer applicable.

New Orleans was home to many people who lost virtually everything.  On top of everyone who died, that is a tragedy.  Trying to rebuild there is just going to get more people killed.  As others have pointed out, New Orleans got lucky in many respects with the way Katrina came ashore.  Seriously, this is about as inteligent as rebuilding in the shadow of Mt. Vesuvius.  You KNOW that one day it is going to up and blow.  On that day, no amount of preparation is going to be enough.

Unfortunately, NO is too important in financial/trade terms for that.  I think an author - I forget the name - proposed that the US would eventually have, like the rest of the 'older' (i.e. longer colonized by 'building' peoples, rather than say those living in tents) world, a number of cities that were no more than ruins, like Pompeii (for example) now is.  New Orleans was a suggestion, as were the cities on the San Andreas fault.

[WeatherOp]

From a practical engineering perspective, they can't get the levees back to pre-Katrina integrity before hurricane season starts.  They really need to face facts and either re-locate or abandon New Orleans altogether.  Building a city in the middle of a flood-plain right next to the largest river in North America some 20 odd feet below sea-level (and the water level of said river) is stupid.  Perhaps the people who originally built the town couldn't have been expected to know any better.  Certainly that excuse is no longer applicable.

New Orleans was home to many people who lost virtually everything.  On top of everyone who died, that is a tragedy.  Trying to rebuild there is just going to get more people killed.  As others have pointed out, New Orleans got lucky in many respects with the way Katrina came ashore.  Seriously, this is about as inteligent as rebuilding in the shadow of Mt. Vesuvius.  You KNOW that one day it is going to up and blow.  On that day, no amount of preparation is going to be enough.

Unfortunately, NO is too important in financial/trade terms for that.  I think an author - I forget the name - proposed that the US would eventually have, like the rest of the 'older' (i.e. longer colonized by 'building' peoples, rather than say those living in tents) world, a number of cities that were no more than ruins, like Pompeii (for example) now is.  New Orleans was a suggestion, as were the cities on the San Andreas fault.

Aldo is correct on that.

The fact everyone fails to see is the fact that NO was not the worst place for something like this to happen. They include Galveston and Houston, Miami, New York City, Boston, Mobile, Tampa and many more.

Most of our major ports and they can't be abandoned.

And the scope of what could happen is nearly unimaginable. Had Ivan hit a few miles west of Mobile, they said the storm surge would have dammed up the Alabama river, and would have wiped out most if not all of Mobile.

And even that pales in comparison to what would happen if a Cat 3 hurricane hit NYC.

[Flipside]

The same can be said for London as well, there was an article in our local paper recently that showed how much of my local area would be underwater if the spring rains cause the reservoirs near us to overflow. It was not a very heartening image.

[Mefustae]

You're making it sound like I want Nagin to take ALL responsibility. He had the ability to move people, and didn't. Kept begging the govt for more and more help. In a time of national disaster, people should do whatever is necessary to ensure the safety of the people, WITHOUT wating for the dammned government to step in and take care of it. What I'm saying is that he should have done whatever he could to get those people out and away with the busses he had, instead of letting them sit there! I'm in no position to say what should happen to him, but surely he deserves more than what he got.

So, effectively what you're saying, is that Nagin should be punished for not being able to save the city without any Government help whatsoever...

You make it sound like he had hundreds of heavy-lift helicopters and soforth to move the people out, and yet chose not to! As a matter of fact, the busses you're referring to didn't have any drivers, and trying to evacuate people in busses without people who actually know how to drive a bus... in the middle of a Hurricane... not the best idea i've heard...

Building a city in the middle of a flood-plain right next to the largest river in North America some 20 odd feet below sea-level (and the water level of said river) is stupid. Perhaps the people who originally built the town couldn't have been expected to know any better. Certainly that excuse is no longer applicable.

No, not stupid, just ignorant, same as yourself. When the city was first built, it was considerably above sea-level, and it was placed in a prime position economically, hence it becoming such a major city. Then, over time, the entire city slowly sunk to the level it is at now.

[WeatherOp]

So, effectively what you're saying, is that Nagin should be punished for not being able to save the city without any Government help whatsoever...

You make it sound like he had hundreds of heavy-lift helicopters and soforth to move the people out, and yet chose not to! As a matter of fact, the busses you're referring to didn't have any drivers, and trying to evacuate people in busses without people who actually know how to drive a bus... in the middle of a Hurricane... not the best idea i've heard...

1: He had plenty of buses to do it, but they stood still.

2: As I stated before he started the first evacs Sunday morning, 12 hours or more after hurricane watches went into effect. I do believe hurricane warnings were in effect before he started Evac.

3: Hmmm, so how Florida, Texas, Alabama, and Miss does evac without goverment help is all luck?

Dude, what the goverment's problem was with the delayed relief effort and that kind of thing after the hurricane, everything before is and allways will be the City/State responsability. The only goverment hand  would be the hand of the NHC whitch did their job very well.

[Kosh]

You're making it sound like I want Nagin to take ALL responsibility.  He had the ability to move people, and didn't.  Kept begging the govt for more and more help.  In a time of national disaster, people should do whatever is necessary to ensure the safety of the people, WITHOUT wating for the dammned government to step in and take care of it.

Has the thought ever occured to you that ones who could get out on their own did and ones who stayed behind (mostly) was because they couldn't get out? Many of the people died just because they didn't own cars.

[Mefustae]

1: He had plenty of buses to do it, but they stood still.

As I stated before, in that quote actually, there were no qualified drivers for said busses, and I personally would not want to be in a bus driven by someone who has neither the training or experience driving a bus.

2: As I stated before he started the first evacs Sunday morning, 12 hours or more after hurricane watches went into effect. I do believe hurricane warnings were in effect before he started Evac.

You raise a good point, but that does not change the fact that a good lot of people still in NO when Katrina hit were - as Kosh pointed out - incapable of leaving, whether it be their lack of transport or simply a desire to remain with their homes. Frankly, if I were a lower-class individual in NO with a hurricane approaching and no way of escape, i'd stay in my home rather than risk robbery/murder/squalid conditions in places like the 'Dome.

3: Hmmm, so how Florida, Texas, Alabama, and Miss does evac without goverment help is all luck?

Hmmm, because they've never had a major city of 1.2 Million, situated below Sea-level, hit with a Category 5 Hurricane? Plus, it's somewhat of a bad time to be hit with a Hurricane, what with most resources - both manpower such as in the CoE, and monetary assets - pooled towards spreading peace, love & democracy via kicking the s*** out of a small nation that shall remain nameless.

[WeatherOp]

1: He had plenty of buses to do it, but they stood still.

As I stated before, in that quote actually, there were no qualified drivers for said busses, and I personally would not want to be in a bus driven by someone who has neither the training or experience driving a bus.

2: As I stated before he started the first evacs Sunday morning, 12 hours or more after hurricane watches went into effect. I do believe hurricane warnings were in effect before he started Evac.

You raise a good point, but that does not change the fact that a good lot of people still in NO when Katrina hit were - as Kosh pointed out - incapable of leaving, whether it be their lack of transport or simply a desire to remain with their homes. Frankly, if I were a lower-class individual in NO with a hurricane approaching and no way of escape, i'd stay in my home rather than risk robbery/murder/squalid conditions in places like the 'Dome.

3: Hmmm, so how Florida, Texas, Alabama, and Miss does evac without goverment help is all luck?

Hmmm, because they've never had a major city of 1.2 Million, situated below Sea-level, hit with a Category 5 Hurricane? Plus, it's somewhat of a bad time to be hit with a Hurricane, what with most resources - both manpower such as in the CoE, and monetary assets - pooled towards spreading peace, love & democracy via kicking the s*** out of a small nation that shall remain nameless.

1: Why have so many buses if you have no one to drive them? And you would rather face the fury of 165+mph
 winds instead of an un-qualified bus driver.

2:Except 90% of those people could walk. Now the thing about it is, if there was a Cat 5 hurricane comming straight at me, and I was below sea level, I would do all I could to get me, my family and friends out of that city.

3. Wrong, Hurricane Andrew 1992, over 1 1/2 Million people fled from the face of that storm. As it scraped Miami. It was also right after DS.

[Grug]

The same can be said for London as well, there was an article in our local paper recently that showed how much of my local area would be underwater if the spring rains cause the reservoirs near us to overflow. It was not a very heartening image.

Dude, start building an ark!

[Mefustae]

1: Why have so many buses if you have no one to drive them? And you would rather face the fury of 165+mph
 winds instead of an un-qualified bus driver.

There are likely other reasons for those buses not being utilised. It's not like he had a sinister motive for keeping those buses unused, nor I doubt he would have forgotten about them. The fact of the matter is, they weren't used for whatever reason, case closed.

2:Except 90% of those people could walk. Now the thing about it is, if there was a Cat 5 hurricane comming straight at me, and I was below sea level, I would do all I could to get me, my family and friends out of that city.

...I'm not even going to begin telling you what's wrong with what you just said.

3. Wrong, Hurricane Andrew 1992, over 1 1/2 Million people fled from the face of that storm. As it scraped Miami. It was also right after DS.

Touche, sir. Although DS was a minor skirmish compared to the cluster-f*** Iraq is now, and the damage caused by Katrina was considerably worse [nearly double the property damage], but other than that, the disasters are eerily similar. With that in mind, reading into the disaster shows that Federal Aid was slow then as well, with George H. Bush only speeding it up after Hale's outburst. Coincidences, coincidences.

It's worth pointing out that even with the cock-ups, over 80% of the city was evacuated [highest estimates], but even conservative estiamtes of around 65% aren't bad for a city with an extremely large lower-class population.

[aldo_14]

1: Why have so many buses if you have no one to drive them? And you would rather face the fury of 165+mph
 winds instead of an un-qualified bus driver.

2:Except 90% of those people could walk. Now the thing about it is, if there was a Cat 5 hurricane comming straight at me, and I was below sea level, I would do all I could to get me, my family and friends out of that city.

3. Wrong, Hurricane Andrew 1992, over 1 1/2 Million people fled from the face of that storm. As it scraped Miami. It was also right after DS.

Um, I think you're wrong with 1 and 2.  Firstly, placing unqualified drivers in charge of evacuation buses not only has impact on helath and safety liability, it throws up a very real possibility of one or move of those buses having an accident and causing a severe holdup to the entire evacuation.  The reason for having too many buses could be manifold, from simple bueractratic stupidity, to needing an amount of backup buses at each local station/depot, etc.  There could even simply be a shortage of qualified drivers, rather than intentionally having too many buses.

  Secondly, you'd have to be damn sure of the exact path of the hurricane in order to risk moving outside on foot to escape it - and you'd doubtless have to walk a huge distance too.  Not to mention young children, the elderly or infirm.

[WeatherOp]

*edit: I had the above comments anwsered, then after thinking about it, I've relized how much I've pulled this thread OT, and we are now discussing the same mess we have discussed on this forum and others as well after Kat hit. So I apoligize for pulling this OT.

[Flipside]

Heh, if we all had to apologise everytime we pulled a thread off topic, we might as well start a sticky apology thread and save time