[Flipside]

http://metimes.com/articles/normal.php?StoryID=20060606-045544-1908r

RAMALLAH, West Bank --  Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas was headed for a showdown with the Hamas government after winning the green light on Tuesday to hold a referendum on implicitly recognizing Israel.

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In Gaza, Mohammed Abu Seido, 30, a coffee shop cashier, said he would vote for the document, but he worried that Hamas would react with violence if it is approved.

“Hamas is already failing,” he said.

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060605/ts_nm/mideast_dc_15

Dozens of gunmen stormed into Palestine Television on Monday in a show of strength against President Mahmoud Abbas in the final hours before his deadline to Hamas to accept a manifesto implicitly recognizing
Israel

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I'm choosing to take the optimistic path here and say that this is the sign of the grip of fundamentalism starting to slip.

Odd date really for all this to come to light

[Turambar]

you know, from a logic perspective, israel really doesn't have a right to exist.  it's just waay too much of a pain in the ass to get them all out of there.  that's the real problem

[achtung]

you know, from a logic perspective, israel really doesn't have a right to exist.  it's just waay too much of a pain in the ass to get them all out of there.  that's the real problem

What kind of logic are you using?

[Fragrag]

Bah, thought this thread was about Rincewind going to the Middle East

[Flipside]

LOL That would have been a heck of a story

Although Jingo tends to cover the whole thing pretty well

[Rictor]

The Israeli government must be rolling on the flooring laughing. Mighty accomodating of the Palies to just take each other out like that, without Israel so much as raising a finger.

And Flipside, I wouldn't read too much into this. First, it's mostly about power, not the idealogies behind the factions. Always is in places like that. Power is everything, and all else comes second. And secondly, Fatah (or more generally the PLO) has been around for decades. Hamas has only been active for, what, ten or fifteen years? If they have managed to mount a serious challenge to Fatah in that time, what does that tell you of the larger overall trends?

[Flipside]

Well, I get the feeling Hamas are recieving much more 'external' support than Fatah because of their more openly hardline views. My main cause for hope, oddly enough, is the fact that even Middle Eastern sources are reporting strong support for the referendum, and dropping popularity of Hamas for standing aginst it.

It's going to get worse before it gets better, I know that, the odds of Hamas turning round and saying 'Oh, ok, the people have spoken, we won't attack Israel any more' are small to say the very least, but I think the overall trend is hopeful, at least it means in the public there is a growing consensus, that might just be the first small steps in starting to sort this mess out. How much good this will do with militant Hamas groups running round destroying their own peoples' property and services I don't know.

[Turambar]

you know, from a logic perspective, israel really doesn't have a right to exist.  it's just waay too much of a pain in the ass to get them all out of there.  that's the real problem

What kind of logic are you using?

well basically it goes like this
without going back thousands of years:

there were people living there, and they were happy enough
some people invaded, took their land, took all their stuff, and then started oppressing them. 

its fairly simple.  the people who invaded didn't need to invade.  in fact, that was probably the worst way they could have done it, not to mention it was heresy, as the messiah is supposed to lead the jewish people back to the holy land.  if they had just kind of moved in, bought some houses, and sought to create a government with the palestinian people, everything'd be ok now.  but no, they had to do it the wrong way, with tanks and bulldozers.

[Flipside]

Actually, it wasn't entirely their fault.

* Flipside Points at his government

Alas, we have to take more than a little responsibility for the mess out there

[Turambar]

thats just the crazy fundie christians in control trying to bring about the rapture and all the other wierd stuff in the book of revelations

[Flipside]

Partly, but it's also down to things like the Suez Canal incident, where the UK behaved, to put it bluntly, in an absolutely disgusting manner.

[Turambar]

so you know all of that stuff that's supposed to make Ahmadinejad look like an unreasonable madman, the bits about him saying that israel has no right to exist, we will nuke israel, the holocaust never happened etc. ?  turns out he didnt really say them.   apparently they took quotes and cut them up to 'create' those ideas, and then the US media got hold of them and just started blasting them at everyone.  i'll ask my dad for the link to the story.

when i was searching in google news for the name "Ahmadinejad" i came across so many shameful attempts to villify this guy.  One site "american thinker" tried to claim he'd be a good candidate for the antichrist.  its got about the same writing style as a blog, but i was very disappointed when i couldnt sign up and write "youre a dumbass" in a comment box at the bottom.

in other news.  wtf do they have against gay marriage?  it makes me want to find where all the protesting gay ppl are and join them.  damn southern state...  theyre trying to amend the state constitution here.  honestly, what did gay people do to them?

[Ace]

I don't know, there was an interview with him in a German soccer magazine where he avoided use of the word 'Israel' as well as repeatidly danced around the topic of the holocaust. It's so prevalent that it's pretty clearly not from the editing.

Is he a nutcase? Yes. Are half of the things said about him false? Yes, but he's still a nutcase.

Are his equivalents in the US just as bad? Yes. ...but the beautiful irony is sometimes the true enemies of humanity fight eachother.

[Sarafan]

so you know all of that stuff that's supposed to make Ahmadinejad look like an unreasonable madman, the bits about him saying that israel has no right to exist, we will nuke israel, the holocaust never happened etc. ?  turns out he didnt really say them.   apparently they took quotes and cut them up to 'create' those ideas, and then the US media got hold of them and just started blasting them at everyone.  i'll ask my dad for the link to the story.

when i was searching in google news for the name "Ahmadinejad" i came across so many shameful attempts to villify this guy.  One site "american thinker" tried to claim he'd be a good candidate for the antichrist.  its got about the same writing style as a blog, but i was very disappointed when i couldnt sign up and write "youre a dumbass" in a comment box at the bottom.

in other news.  wtf do they have against gay marriage?  it makes me want to find where all the protesting gay ppl are and join them.  damn southern state...  theyre trying to amend the state constitution here.  honestly, what did gay people do to them?

Do you have the link for this or do you know where it can be found?

[karajorma]

Actually, it wasn't entirely their fault.

* Flipside Points at his government

Alas, we have to take more than a little responsibility for the mess out there

True but it is worth pointing out the irony in the fact that the British only allowed the situation to get this far by not reacting to Jewish terrorism in the same way that former Jewish terrorists now demand Palestinian terrorists should be treated.

[Flipside]

It's also worth remembering that once what was going on came to light, Eden had no choice but to resign or face the wrath of voters. Though I don't doubt some few of us went around trying to justify it.

[Ferret]

you know, from a logic perspective, israel really doesn't have a right to exist.  it's just waay too much of a pain in the ass to get them all out of there.  that's the real problem

What kind of logic are you using?

well basically it goes like this
without going back thousands of years:

there were people living there, and they were happy enough
some people invaded, took their land, took all their stuff, and then started oppressing them. 

its fairly simple.  the people who invaded didn't need to invade.  in fact, that was probably the worst way they could have done it, not to mention it was heresy, as the messiah is supposed to lead the jewish people back to the holy land.  if they had just kind of moved in, bought some houses, and sought to create a government with the palestinian people, everything'd be ok now.  but no, they had to do it the wrong way, with tanks and bulldozers.

American Settlers vs Native Indians.