Author Topic: Little girl lost  (Read 5669 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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I think the simplest most effective way to solve the problem is to follow a few simple rules.

1) if you make it out of your mother with your heart beating and take a breath, you are alive and have the rights of any other living person, this includes the right to live.

2) the right to live is a right you can opt out of, but only by choice and in a sound state of mind.

3) situations that make these rules hard to apply should be solved before they reach the point of delema, if at all posable.
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Offline Ford Prefect

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Blackdove, without more rationale than what you've given so far, what you're saying is just impressive sophistry. Arguing that the default is to preserve life is not adequate; those arguing against you have made a case for the "sanctity" of life being contingent upon certain measurable characteristics. If you want to counter that argument you're going to have to demonstrate that the value of purely biological life is not a contingency but a necessity.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Bobboau

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how about the erring on the side of caution argument?
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Despite the debate has been steadily going towards a direction of generalizing matters, I think it's time to get some other sources than the original link and Stetson-Harrison method, just to correct some of the factually erraneous statements made in this thread (those made by myself included):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Wyatt

Quote
Current status

Charlotte is alert and can see and hear. Although she still needs constant oxygen, Charlotte is now well enough to be discharged from hospital.

Charlotte Wyatt Blogspot

Apparently, Charlotte is as of now neither deaf or blind, nor unable of movement.

Teaches one to make assumptions. Oh well.


However, regardless of this particular case I'm still of the opinion that in some cases, preserving life is not worthwile. The trouble is knowing which case has hope of living satisfying life and which case doesn't.

It is a difficult thing, and I don't think there is single right answer - it's too case-dependant. I definitly wouldn't place every disabled child onto "not-to-resuscitate"-list, no way. Besides, if I were a doctor, I would not be too keen to convict a newborn to life-long unlife. After all, whatever brain damage a prematurely born child might have, ther's no way of declaring the situation to be final, since the brains keep developing even after normal nine months of pregnancy. So, a prematurely born baby keeps developing his or her nerve systems - including new brain cells - that just might cover a large part of what was lost. And it should also be taken into account that the brain can assign tasks from disabled areas to undamaged ones, especially child's brain. They just have to learn things again, and child's brain cells can make new connections much more easily than adult's. It might even be possible for a prematurely born child to develope a whole new visual brain cortex to replace the irreparably damaged one. Or to create new connections between an undamaged area of brain and the ears, to effectively create new area dedicated to analyzing hearing. I'm not a neurologist, but it wouldn't feel too impossible to me.


However, regardless of the particular case described here, let's think of a general situation where a child is borne disabled, physically ill and incapable of any normal mental development - that would mean that the child has no viable interface to world due to severely disabled sensory functions and no voluntary body movements.

If the condition can be proven to be this bad, I don't see any reason to prolong vital functions. Furthermore, if the child can feel pain, that's even more of a reason to not prolong the suffering.


It's the "prove" part that causes most difficulty. How to be sure? In cases like this, where a prematurely born child has seemingly brain damage, I would wait and see what happens when he or she is kept alive until at least a month or two after calculated time of birth. If the brain damage remains as extensive as it was in the beginning, then I just might resign, since after that it would be unlikely for tha brain functions to get anywhere near the level required for actually living, aside from vital organ functions.


Quote
Unlike your opinion(s), mine encompasses the true virtues of the species, while yours hunts down matters that aren't yours to meddle in.

1. Define "true virtue of the species". What good would it do to keep alive a person who has no hope of ever feeling anything but pain, like described in the latter example rather than the actual case of Charlotte Wyatt?

2. When a person can't affect his or her life, not even to express his or her opinion about things, everything is meddling. And in case where the only sensation was constant pain, I would actually view prolonging the life of pain with medical technology more of a meddling than not doing so.

Someone always makes decisions for people who cannot do it themselves. Furthermore, it is disputable if a person with only sensation ever being suffering even has such a thing as developed personality, or ability to abstract thinking. If the situation can be reliably confirmed of having no hope of getting any better, then I think it's simply a decision between pain and no pain - and if the "no pain" option involves death - or stopping vital function support - so be it.

Quote
The emo poem sort of solidifies my argument. Preconceived notions of the negative, projected onto someone else is the definition of a psychotic god-image problem.

I wouldn't be too keen to define that particular Metallica song as an emo poem, but suit yourself.

As to what comes to projecting preconceived notions onto a situation where a person has known nothing but pain from his or her birth, there are multiple argumenst that make it highly unprobable for him or her to have anything good to live for.

Mental development demands interface to the world (and particularly social interaction). Sensory deprivation in itself is a very effective form of torture. It is practically impossible for a child with no sensations other than pain to develop any kind of picture of the world around him, not to mention having any kind of remotely normal mental development. He or she would stay forever on fetal level of conscience, if not lower.

And that opinion is not preconceived negative notion, its based on scientific data as to what is required for mental development of a child.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 04:19:22 pm by Herra Tohtori »
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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how about the erring on the side of caution argument?
A good argument, but the problem I have with it is that it supposes the brain to be some kind of metaphysical strongbox, the workings of which are hopelessly obscured by skepticism. But science shows us that consciousness is simply another biological function that is just as dependent upon its corresponding organ as the act of respiration is dependent upon the lungs. So the way I see it, someone arguing against letting this girl die has two options: Argue that one's humanity is not dependent upon the functions provided to us by the brain, or argue that the physical state of the brain isn't a sufficient basis for knowledge of another's conscious existence. I think that both of these arguments are at best based in philosophical skepticism, and at worst, quasi-religious.

EDIT: In light of Herra Tohtori's most prudent investigation, consider this argument officially hypothetical.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2006, 04:28:15 pm by Ford Prefect »
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline aldo_14

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Unlike your opinion(s), mine encompasses the true virtues of the species, while yours hunts down matters that aren't yours to meddle in.

I think it's rather arrogant to presume to know the 'virtues of the species'; I was always under the impression that human life was valued highly because of it's content of emotional, physical and intellectual exploration.  As far as I'm aware, it is not defined as 'suffering', and perhaps you should consider that the value is not in the existence of life but the content.  Is a lifetime of blinding pain experienced with the barest of senses and no comprehension or hope truly a valuable life to live?

 

Offline Stealth

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Quote
left her blind, deaf and incapable of voluntary movement or response...The permanent damage to the brain is certain and irreversible.

this girl can't hear.
this girl can't see.
this girl can't move.
this girl can't talk.
this girl has permanent and irreversible (<--keywords) brain damage.
this girl has no one to care for her.
this girl has no one that loves her.
this girl has no home.
this girl is being kept alive by the government.

good god people. how is it NOT obvious what needs to and should be done :rolleyes:

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Quote
left her blind, deaf and incapable of voluntary movement or response...The permanent damage to the brain is certain and irreversible.

this girl can't hear.
this girl can't see.
this girl can't move.
this girl can't talk.
this girl has permanent and irreversible (<--keywords) brain damage.
this girl has no one to care for her.
this girl has no one that loves her.
this girl has no home.
this girl is being kept alive by the government.

good god people. how is it NOT obvious what needs to and should be done :rolleyes:

And as I three messages up told, Charlotte Watts apparently can hear, see and move. She is also aware of her surroundings and it would appear that she can be discharded from hospital as soon as her parents get their act together.

Permanent and irreversible brain damage in itself is not always life-impairing thing, it's the extent of damage that matters. Human brain is surprisingly adaptable, especially little child's brain, because they grow new brain cells and thus they don't have to rely on making a plethora of new connections between cells...

As to family conditions of this particular girl, I'm not in a position to analyze the situation but it appears that her dad got a bit screwed up about the separation and took a drug overdose, but is seemingly in better psychological condition now and is trying to have his daughter to home with him, as is told on the blogspot I linked to in my last message.

Only time will hopefully tell what Charlotte herself thinks of all this. :rolleyes:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline aldo_14

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I'm not sure on her exact sensory capacity, becuase the only medical judgement states there is irreversible brain damage (there's no mention of developmental issues with the eyes, ears, etc that could be reversed with time); and the references to partial sight and hearing may well be perceptive from the parents rather than actual, making the situation rather vague. Unfortunately, the Terri Schiavo case taught me never to trust pictures, video, et al because of the impact of selection.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Yeah, the blogspot is written extremely sentimentally in my opinion, but there are some things that do rise my eyebrow...

For example this:

Quote from: Blogspot
At birth she weighed only 458 grams, and was barely five inches long. She was immediately put in an incubator, and it was three months time before Darren and Debbie were able to hold her.

But Charlotte improved excellently, and by July of 2004 she was eating from a spoon, and required hardly any oxygen. At this time, she could see and hear without any problem.

St. Mary's hospital then decided that it was time to move Charlotte out of the intensive care unit, and into the children's ward. Almost immediately, she got a blood infection, and started needing more and more oxygen. Then the day came when her parents were rung up and told that Charlotte's lungs had collapsed, and she had been put on a ventilator.

Thrice Charlotte was put on a ventilator, leaving her in September needing an oxygen level of 100%. The doctors at Portsmouth then decided that she would never recover, she would be always blnd and deaf, in constant pain, and unable to communicate for the rest of her life. They urged Mr. Justice Hedley to allow them not to care for her if she would need to be ventilated again. Her parents felt she was a fighter and should be given every chance, and they pleaded for her right to life, but the medical establishment was all on the other side. The Judge decided in favour of the hospital.


So, according to this text, her condition could in fact be argued to be a result of a medical error to place her into normal childrens' ward too early, which resulted in her blood infection and consequent damage to lungs and other organs.

Which kind of makes the situation even more  :sigh:.

However, I wouldn't blindly trust the blogspot... it is written from parents' point of view, obviously. I would love to hear/read the opinions of what happened from medical personnel involved in her treatment, as well as what they think of her current condition.

Anyway, debating about particular cases doesn't lead the discussion anywhere.


Life can be good for a disabled person, I do not try to deny that, but in some cases I don't think death would be any worse option than to keep living with no other content than pain in life.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline IceFire

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Straight and to the point: the court should have found in favour of the doctors and let the poor child die.
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Offline Ulala

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To play devil's advocate, there have been miracles in medicine before (sorry I'm not linking to specific examples, but I know there have been recoveries when doctors have said it would never happen), and maybe Charlotte will be the next. If so, using our 20/20 hindsight, should she have been killed?

The whole situation is a tough call. Granted, IceFire's answer is straight and to the point, but that didn't make it any less of a tough call at the time. Anyone who is able to quickly decide to end a life, even one that's suffering or doesn't meet with my standards of "life", worries me.
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Offline aldo_14

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To play devil's advocate, there have been miracles in medicine before (sorry I'm not linking to specific examples, but I know there have been recoveries when doctors have said it would never happen), and maybe Charlotte will be the next. If so, using our 20/20 hindsight, should she have been killed?

Not killed (or euthanised).  The order was 'do not resuscitate'* (an order later rescinded with an upgrading of her condition).  This meant the doctors did not wish to inflict invasive (painful, uncomfortable) life support methods upon the child on order to keep her alive should her condition deteriorate and she stop breathing.  This is different from withdrawing current & ongoing life support.