Author Topic: Death of Civility?  (Read 1960 times)

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Offline redmenace

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfnn7wTgoE8

Although, the one guy being interviewed was a douche.
Also I didn't copy his words I came up with the title before it got to that part.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
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Offline redmenace

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Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Yea Bill is kind of a nut.

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Oh my god that was frigging awesome. I don't personally condone such tactics, but that is what I call a protest.

Also, does anyone else think that Bill O'Reilly is just a doll, and that there's someone hiding behind him pulling the string on his back through the whole show?
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Rictor

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Eh, it's at a university campus: what do you expect? Students have been protesting for centuries, that's the nature of the business. Tthe lesson seems pretty obvious, no? If you want to avoid hippies, go somewhere else.

 

Offline Bobboau

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I don't see how you can realy argue with Bill, with that tape and all, he's kinda got a point.
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Offline redmenace

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Well the whole persecution thing is far fetched and declaring that this is convulsive of liberals and democrats is nuts. Their actions are more related to the fact that they are young political hacks that don't know any better. The fact that most of what OReilly was describing as assaults against Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter are conducted by young college age democrats is only a coincidence.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
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Offline BlackDove

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Oh my god that was frigging awesome. I don't personally condone such tactics, but that is what I call a protest.

Also, does anyone else think that Bill O'Reilly is just a doll, and that there's someone hiding behind him pulling the string on his back through the whole show?

No, the puppet just simply seems to think he's a real boy, so all those thoughts are his even though the strings are obviously there. They just don't need pulling.

And yeah, that protest was awesome. Get on the stage and outvoice the dip****.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 01:47:34 pm by BlackDove »

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Quote
I don't see how you can realy argue with Bill, with that tape and all, he's kinda got a point.

It's not the validness of the point, it's the hypocricy that is the most entertaining and astonishing aspect about that O'Reilly clip.

Now, extremism is A-1 supar stupidness on all the sides, in any case. But the point that Fox News themselves quite always show just one side of things themselves (the Right Way as opposed to Lef... oops, the Wrong Way) and thus defending the freedom of speech is quite moot from their side. Especially as they identify violent, extremists as "liberal democratics".

There are bound to be just as dumbass conservatives. In fact, Right Wing's dumbassness is not limited to violence against other people, but against other nations as well (as is historically demonstrated).


The point is not being liberal democrat or conservative republican despite O'REilly's claims; it's about being a violent imbesil (which is a bad thing) or not being one (better thing, regardless of your opinions which may or may not suck).


When conservative media identifies violent behaviour as part of liberal, democratic "far left" agenda, it is not only blatantly untrue but could also be interpreted as hate speech against "liberal democratic" or "far left" people, of whom definitely not all are violent. After all, it's just a matter of interpretation who is considered "far left" and who just "left".

Quote from: Wikipedia
Hate speech is a controversial term for speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against a person or group of people based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, moral or political views, etc. The term covers written as well as oral communication. It is also sometimes called antilocution and is the first point on Allport's scale which measures prejudice in a society.


Quote from: Bill O'Reilly
OK, no spin: Columbia University is a disgrace. It is not interested in
free speech or learning, it is a place of indoctrination. Let us call it
the "University of Havana, North."

1. He's mocking the university of Columbia by ground of what some people do on a video clip. Was the whole university people included? I don't think so. That's the first stupidity in this piece of what he said.

2. He's assuming that University of Havana is similar in regards that it is a violent, far-left environment to be. I've never been to Havana University, but I think it's a safe bet that neither has O'Reilly...

Quote
All over the country these kind of fascist tactics are being used by
fanatical secular progressives who seek to impose their views on others,
and silence and/or harm people who oppose them.

Okay, this is a very interesting piece of work. We learn interesting things from it:

3. Things depicted on the video are fascist tactics (in Internet argument this one is already a kiss of death to any topic, but whatever).

4. These fascist tactics are used by fanatical secular progressives. Interesting, because "secular" is quite much the opposite of "religious" and "progressive" is quite much the opposite of "regressive". Both of which are... not good on my books.

I don't know how fanatical secular people can be, but whatever. Perhaps O'Reilly approves fanatical religious regressives as opposed to fanatical secular progressives. But of non-fanatics, I would definitely choose secular progressive instead of religious regressive...


5. O'Reilly thinks that imposing your views on others and silencing and/or harming those who oppose is a bad thing. I whole-heartedly agree, but the trouble is that O'Reilly (along with Fox News) is not really acting along their claimed agenda for free speech, as any time anyone they interview tries to say something against the current US adminstration, they don't give them a chance to actually finish what they wanted to say.

And of course, Fox News (including O'Reilly) does not seem to care about the fact that the far right conservatives are imposing their views all the time on others not only on all American people (via regressive legislations), but also people in Iraq and Afghanistan (via occupation troops) - and the Fox News definitely silences those who would like to say something against US adminstration - they simply start speaking over them (O'REilly included) and don't let them finish what they wanted to say. :rolleyes:


Quote
This is becoming increasingly dangerous. People like Bill Kristol, Pat
Buchanan, Ann Coulter, have been physically assaulted during speaking
engagements. Attorney General Gonzales was disrespected at Georgetown
University. Even Hillary Clinton has been shouted down by far-left
loons. This kind of anti-American behavior must be condemned by all
Americans.

Okay, far-left loons are now not only far-left loons but also anti-American. Based on what?

Well, I can also call far-right conservatives anti-American since Bush and his adminstration are pissing over the constitution of USA... And that's actually more valid because it has even some argument behind it. O'Reilly just says so, and that's it...

Naturally, all far right conservatives are not anti-American, nor they perhaps think themselves to be, but calling someone something should always have some argument(s) behind the claim, otherwise it means nothing.

Quote
And places that allow these hooligans free reign, like Columbia
University must be held to account. Alumni should stop all donations to
Columbia.

...Right.

I can also think of few other organizations and institutions allowing violent behaviour. Including (but not excluded) to US Government, the Congress, White House and CIA.

How about tax payers stopped IMMEDIATELY giving any money to these hooligans?

I know, the analogy sucks, but nevertheless my point given earlier stands - was the whole university of Columbia involved in the events on the video clip? I don't think so.

Besides. Why should the University of Columbia do anything to this? It can't take responsibility of its students, who are (if I'm not much mistaken) grown-ups. If someone was a victim of violence, let them file a law suit.

Of course, it might be difficult to find out who were guilty of assault in that situation, but it isn't the University's fault, it's individual people's fault.

It's interesting how double standards are used. If it was a school shooting, the Fox News wouldn't say that guns needed to be banned, but when university's individual students commit acts of violence, they say that the university's funding should be pulled. What's the deal with that? If guns don't kill, people do -mantra holds true, then university is not to be held accountable, but individual students are. :drevil:



Quote
Finally, the reason all of this is happening is the S.P.s are losing, so
they are angry and frustrated. Most Americans are not buying the radical
agenda. Air America is tottering on bankruptcy and other far-left people
are only accepted by a lunatic fringe. Nevertheless, the far-left smear
Web sites continued to fan hatred and it has now even spilled over into
the mainstream media.

Har har...

Is there some point into this piece of text that eludes my eyes? Because I only see unsupported claims chained together.

Nevertheless, I have no doubts that the leftest of the left will not get much support from Americans right now, which is a good thing, because as I said, extremism always suck... But I don't think the current right wing will get as much support as previously either. But we will see in next US elections... we will see. :blah:


Quote
There is no place for that kind of garbage in a country that prides
itself on free-speech and responsible dissent.

It is time to confront these merchants of venom and let their masters
know you will not buy their stuff, or donate to their causes, because if
this kind of thing continues, it is only a matter of time before someone
gets hurt.

Wow. Bill O'Reilly just condemned the Fox News. Pity the context doesn't quite suit...

Perhaps he's an undercover democrat who has infiltrated Fox News and is now trying to subtly point out the irrational things the Government does by spewing out exaggerated propaganda... :lol: You try interpreting everything he says by this, and everything gets quite... interesting colour. :drevil:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline redmenace

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Actually, dumbass democrat and liberals have been just as responcible for attrocious wars, ala Vietnam.

He was saying the individual's behavior is anti-american. It is contrary to civilized political discourse. Now if you want to say that he means that all far left loons are anti-american thats something else and putting words in his mouth and taking what he is saying out of context. If conservatives interupted a speach yelling all sorts of crazy nonsense about "Nazi Racist Blah Blah Blah" then that would not be civilized discourse either.

The whole shame thing he was saying might be related to the police just standing there saying we can't do anything about it. Is there a policy at the school saying we can't do anything about disruptive students? Or is something more biased? The university might not be responcible, but they should have done something about the disruptive students and faculty member.

Same claims about pissing on the constitution can be made of far left people in the pursuit of their agenda.

I do not wish to defend Bill OReilly, I think your perception of what he said is slightly off.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Look, the point of my overlong message was this:

Extreme left violent radicals are not a good thing, they are wrong.
Extreme <insert adjective> violent radicals are not a good thing, they are wrong.

Also applies to

Extreme right violent radicals are not a good thing, they are wrong.

Oh, and by far right violent radicals I do mean the warhawks of the government - they just aren't violent against individuals (well, for the most part anyway) but instead they cause havoc in much, much larger scale. Fox News and O'Reilly conveniently notice when far-left retards are acting stupid and violent, and try to use it to their advantage, whereas they don't seem to have any trouble with, say, a law that legalizes violence against terrorist suspects (which is quite a loosely defined term after all).


The strange thing is that Bill O'Reilly seems to automatically interpret that it is the reason of far-leftness that those students acted violently - if he didn't assume that, why mention the leftness at all? In my opinion the reason for the violent behaviour is simpy being a dumbass tard, and people from any political views can be violent as long as there are stupid gits amongst people. But O'Reilly makes it seem like only the liberal democrats can commit violent actions against freedom of speech, which is quite not true.

I mean, what's the point in even adding the "left-wingness" to this pile of poop - that is, other meaning than creating a polititcal controversy (peaceful, liberty-defending right vs. violent, freedom-hating left wing) which isn't even true in any case? Now, let me work out what O'Reilly should've said instead of what he did say (red bolded parts replacing the overlined parts):

All over the country these kind of fascist tactics are being used by
fanatical secular progressives mentally retarded dumbasses who think their opinion is the only right one and who seek to impose their views on others, and silence and/or harm people who oppose them.

This is becoming increasingly dangerous. People like Bill Kristol, Pat
Buchanan, Ann Coulter, have been physically assaulted during speaking
engagements. Attorney General Gonzales was disrespected at Georgetown
University. Even Hillary Clinton has been shouted down by far-left these intellectually invalid
loons. This kind of anti-American idiotic and violent behavior must be condemned by all
Americans.

And places that allow these hooligans free reign, like Columbia
University must be held to account. Alumni should stop all donations to
Columbia.
I really have no replacement for this, because it's so stupid an idea to begin with, so I'd just remove it...

Finally, the reason all of this is happening is the S.P.s are losing, so
they are angry and frustrated. Most Americans are not buying the radical
agenda. Air America is tottering on bankruptcy and other far-left dumbass people
are only accepted by a lunatic fringe. Nevertheless, the far-left violent idiocy smear
Web sites continued to fan hatred and it has now even spilled over into
the mainstream media.

There is no place for that kind of garbage in a country that prides
itself on free-speech and responsible dissent.

It is time to confront these merchants of venom and let their masters
know you will not buy their stuff, or donate to their causes, because if
this kind of thing continues, it is only a matter of time before someone
gets hurt.



You see what I mean? I would wholeheartedly agree to THAT kind of statement, and the baseline is completely the same as in the original story - but WITHOUT the not-so-subtle implication of far-left people being violent by default.

I don't see anything that would suggest that far-left people have the exclusive right to be violent, and neither do I think it is fair to say that far-leftness causes these acts of violence that O'Reilly mentioned. It's just stupid people there, even more stupid people here, and stupid people everywhere.

And as we know, against stupidity Gods themselves contend in vain.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 04:41:22 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline achtung

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That's not the way you get things done.  Raiding and chanting doesn't make you look like anything but an idiot.
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Offline redmenace

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Hate to say it, but this only makes the "conservatives" look attractive.
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Aye. For example, had the students in the video been not so dumb as they seemingly were, they would've just left the autitorium one after one after the presentation began, silently. That would've had much more impact IMO than jumping up, starting to shout obscure things and dragging some cheap banderols onto the stage - much less starting to assault the presentator.


Quote
Hate to say it, but this only makes the "conservatives" look attractive.


Yeah, well, that's the thing I criticized O'Reilly from - branding liberal democratic people as violent to dangerous extent, when everyone should very well know that there are idiots on every camp.

But true; violence for any cause is completely irrational, since it effectively hands arguments to opponents to be used as weapons against the cause. Like in this case. The fact that generalizing a large group of people based on actions of a few is perhaps the most severe error one can make in any judgement, people still do it, and politicians (die Arschloche auf Deutsch) use it to their advantage in many cases - particularly the populist ones.
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Offline BlackDove

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Violence kicks ass.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Bobboau

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his speal was targeted at extreemists, this was an example of left extreemism, it was the motivation behind there rioting, they atacked the guy, because he was saying things they didn't like, because he was the gut who sat on the border with a gun and chased off mexicans rather than let them in to the country without any check. the people on the floor want a world without borders and view his position basicly like racism, so they acted out violently, they are part of a bunch of loosely afiliated groupes of people who Bill generaly refers to as secular progressives (wich personaly I think he's off his rocker with his quasi-consperency crap, but anyway...). unless you can find me a video or even a report of a liberal getting mauled while giveing a speach by right wing loonies in the US, then I'm afaid he's totaly right on this subject.
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Offline IceFire

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Bunch of nuts down there...the lot of them.

I'm glad you guys are building a fence along our border too.  Keep us safe :)
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Offline redmenace

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Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
              -Frederic Bastiat

  

Offline Herra Tohtori

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(...)

unless you can find me a video or even a report of a liberal getting mauled while giveing a speach by right wing loonies in the US, then I'm afaid he's totaly right on this subject.

Hmm, that they wouldn't show on Fox News now would they?  :drevil: Meh, joking aside.

Well, you can look at news pretty much any given day and see the violence resulting from far-right conservatives' politics. They did invade Iraq, and top of that they did it poorly. They could have chosen not to invade Iraq, yet they did so. Regardless of what they believed about WMD's, the invasion was/is a failure from dimplomatic and military aspects. They could've chosen not to do it, but they did. Perhaps they believed it was the right thing to do, perhaps they had some personal reasons to attack Iraq. I don't know, and seriously I don't care what the reasons were, but the results are what they are:

-Incredible stupidity and incapability has more than partially led to current situation and deaths of tens of thousands of civilians AND thousands of troops, mainly US but also UK and to smaller extent some other nationalities.

In that regard it is similar to the far-left violence. Both cause suffering, but since the far right wing is in the power, they can do it in larger scale.



And I know perfectly well that democrats are well capable of stupidities when they are in power. As stated, stupidity exists everywhere, and to be honest, in many cases stupidity only shows to its full extent in retrospect. At the moment the decisions are made, they might lay on a solid ground of arguments, but if the arguments are later proved to be fallacious, well... too bad.



Anyway. Whenever a person commits to act of violence, would you say it's definitely because of his political stance?

This particular incident at Columbia University should IMO be interpreted as follows:

-The protesting was motivated by the political views of the people present.
-The way they protested was out of proportions, illegal and stupid because of their stupidity.


I have no doubts that most of those people didn't jump onto the stage and mug the dude. It was some dimwits who did that, most I think just kept loud noise. And that's why there hould be no more donations to the university? Besides, it might be tad bit difficult to point out who were the violent ones of the protestors in this case.

I agree that if there were police present, they should've interfered if there was physical violence against the presentator. If they didn't they acted wrong. That's it.

The violence itself doesn't *need* to be connected to a political movement. Yet O'Reilly clearly connects the dots - IMO quite arbitrarily. The main reason why he does that is just that it makes all the left wing look bad in the eyes of those who think similarly in short, preferably two-syllable words (of whom a great part of the public consists in every country).
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.