[TomShak]

Hi all,

I'm trying to convert a model for use with freespace (specifically FS2_Open) but I keep getting "too many polygons in same average location". The freespace modding wiki http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/POF_Constructor_Suite suggests:

If PCS gives a "Too many polygons in same average location!" error, it can mean one (or both) of two things. Either there is a duplicate of one of the objects in the SCN in the EXACT same position as another of the EXACT same shape and size, or your object is too small in TS for PCS to be able to clearly tell the difference between two polygon locations during conversion. (This is a common problem for fighters and bombers because of how small they will appear in TS in order to fit the standard conversion ratio of 20 FS meters to each TS meter.)
To fix the first problem, find the duplicate object and delete or move it. To fix the second, scale the whole ship up in TrueSpace to the size you want it to appear as in Freespace - meter for meter. Then, before converting, set PCS's scaling to 1 rather than 20 and convert.
This should fix it by effectively giving PCS more accuracy when it gets to really small numbers. The up-scaling of your model is counteracted by telling PCS that one TrueSpace meter should equal one Freespace meter, so you don't end up with cruiser sized fighters and the like.

I definitely don't have any duplicate objects and even if I scale up to 1m TS = 1 m PCS I still get the same problem. Indeed I've tried scaling the model up to over 8 km in TS (with 1km TS = 1 m PCS!) but I still get "Too many polygons in same average location". Is it just that the model is too detailed? I'm loathed to reduce the detail of the model (it's really not excessive in terms of number of polygons) so any other solution would be preferrable

Thanks


Tom

[Vasudan Admiral]

At the lowest level that error can mean duplicate polygons in the same object. It's a fairly common kind of mesh error, especially on models that that have unstable geometry somewhere, so the small and hard to edit places are the prime suspects.

If you could post your model file I would be able to tell you more, as the cause of this kind of error really does radically differ between models.

[Galemp]

An STL check would help you out in identifying bad geometry, but I don't know if there's a TrueSpace plugin for that.

[TomShak]

Aha!

Duplicate triangle within the same sub-object

I'm surprised the cob2pof compiler doesn't do some of the cleaning up automatically. Stable models can be created from unstable ones pretty much automatically (just split offending polygons), and duplicate polygons are also easy to detect and remove. It really takes a long time to look for such things by hand!

Perhaps if I manage to find the source code for cob2pof then I'll have a go at adding such features to it

Cheers


Tom

[Water]

Perhaps if I manage to find the source code for cob2pof then I'll have a go at adding such features to it

That part has been taken care of in PCS2
http://downloads.sourceforge.net/alliance/PCS2_2.0.1_2008-02-11_Setup.exe?use_mirror=osdn
http://alliance.cvs.sourceforge.net/alliance/pcs2/

[TomShak]

I had a play with PCS2, but it refused to load a number of .cob files that PCS1 had no trouble with at all. My understand is that PCS2 is at quite an early stage of development. So PCS2 is looking like it'll be a definite improvement over PCS1, but it also seems to be early days ... I'm guessing quite a lot of modellers are still using PCS1?

[Roanoke]

Wow, this error brings back memories.
Have you used a TS boolean, by any chance ?

I'm surprised the cob2pof compiler doesn't do some of the cleaning up automatically. Stable models can be created from unstable ones pretty much automatically (just split offending polygons), and duplicate polygons are also easy to detect and remove. It really takes a long time to look for such things by hand!

Per

Cheers


Tom

that sounds like a very bad idea....

[Vasudan Admiral]

I had a play with PCS2, but it refused to load a number of .cob files that PCS1 had no trouble with at all. My understand is that PCS2 is at quite an early stage of development. So PCS2 is looking like it'll be a definite improvement over PCS1, but it also seems to be early days ... I'm guessing quite a lot of modellers are still using PCS1?

So far I've been using PCS2 for everything except where I encounter a problem that I can only get rid of using PCS1, at which point it's a good idea to make a bug report. Basically, the latest version of PCS1 is still very much stable enough to create release-models, but you should use PCS2 for everything if at all possible.

It's interesting that you have something that would work with PCS1 but not 2 - would you mind uploading one or more of those problem models? At this point in time PCS2 should be able to do just about anything PCS1 can do and a lot more, but there are still some issues with it that need squishing. If I could have a look at one of those models I should be able to tell if it's one such issue.

I'll also add a note about the duplicate polygon to that wiki entry while I remember.

[Getter Robo G]

Not a flame bait post, just a point of accuracy and record:

It's interesting that you have something that would work with PCS1 but not 2

Notes the last 100 models I mentioned that have trouble in pcs2 but work in PCS 1 to get in game (but then again it just might be my computers (plural now!!!)

[Crawls back under rock]

Go Tom!  Dark Hill was the last person to tweak an old tool, and that was Modelview.

You should be able to ge the PCS Source code here from KAZAN (assuming he'd allow you to "monkey" with it) 

[Vasudan Admiral]

Well can SOMEONE upload one such model like that then? If there's something PCS2 is doing worse than PCS1, we need to know about it.

AFAIK, you never uploaded any of those cobs that would not convert?

[Getter Robo G]

I uploaded ONE (Yamato)... Water got it to work though. As for the rest, once they got working in game I didn't need to keep track of them right?  (still doesn't change reality).

I say as long as something functions it's useful until it becomes a detriment to the end product.
ATM I have experienced no downside (aside from teasing - which advances my projects NAUGHT!  )

[Vasudan Admiral]

I uploaded ONE (Yamato)... Water got it to work though. As for the rest, once they got working in game I didn't need to keep track of them right?  (still doesn't change reality).

I say as long as something functions it's useful until it becomes a detriment to the end product.
ATM I have experienced no downside (aside from teasing - which advances my projects NAUGHT!  )

Well ok, but please don't encourage others to use PCS1 over PCS2.

[Getter Robo G]

Never have (please post any instance I did)

PCS1 is a backup tool for people that have problems with 2, just like I still use Model View, (and .cob2pof) if needed... PCS2 is the new standard and no one deputes that.

[Vasudan Admiral]

Fair enough then - I can understand PCS1 as a backup tool, but from "You should be able to get the PCS Source code here from KAZAN" I was getting the impression you were encouraging development of PCS1, which would be totally redundant. Assuming you meant PCS2, no worries.

It's just that if no-one posts problem models that failed in PCS2 but worked in PCS1, if it is indicative of a PCS2 bug then it will never get fixed, which is rather annoying. If you or anyone else does encounter it again, please post it? It might at least tell us if there really is an issue or not.

[Nuke]

An STL check would help you out in identifying bad geometry, but I don't know if there's a TrueSpace plugin for that.

how many times do i have to say that stl check does absolutely nothing for any models used for the game. stl check just looks to see if a model can be printed on a stereo lithography machine, which creates a resin cast model. during the print operation, you need to have some support for the model while its being printed, otherwise it would sink in the resin pool and you would ruin the final model. so you had to model on additional supports to hold it up while its being created. all stl check does is makes sure that everything is supported properly so the model doesn't move while its being fabricated.