Author Topic: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...  (Read 6857 times)

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
At least I'm not a hypocrite, I don't have a car. :P

         Many places and many things necessitate having a car. Especially in cities with low urban density and poor transit services.

 
Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
i think they should centralize energy production and transmit it over the power grid, then we can use lithium ion battery cars, prototypes have good figures, a range of 300 miles, and sports car performance. this also means beefing up the grid, more nuke reactors and hydro plants, make power cheaper by reducing the overhead and loss of physical distribution. any major car factory could put out a general purpose battery car in less than a year if they wanted to. and most people would buy it.

Do you know how much polution is created in the process of the batteries for the electric and hybrid electric cars? Its far more then a land rover discovery makes in its life time to make 1 single Prius battery. Electric and Hybrid Gasoline-Electric cars are NOT the answer if you want less polution. Proper desposal of batteries are a pain in the ass, and most electricty is created by Coal Power, so increasing the electricty usage with electric cars would just make the powerplants work harder, thus making them polute more.

And for those Hybrid Gasoline-Electric car lovers, hate to bust your pride but you get more MPG in a Volkswagen Golf TDI then a Toyota Prius, and thats not even hybrid.

Truthfully, Now that car manufacturers have put filters on diesel engines and we have low-sulfer diesel now, I think Diesel is the way to go... Its cleaner then gasoline now with all the filtering that is going on with it. And if you use Bio-Diesel you also get better MPG and less harmful emitions aswell. And if you look at the figures of how much green-house gases are produced by cars, Its a really minute percentage.

Bottom line, HYBRIDS SUCK.
Hybrid lovers, watch these:
TopGear - S05E07
TopGear - S11E01

 

Offline Spicious

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
You'll have to do better than TopGear for referencing. With proper funding, alternative electricity sources could replace coal. Similarly some effort into batteries with higher energy density would alleviate those issues with electric cars.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
Using Top Gear in this instance is like citing Mr. Bean as a thought-evoking psychological romp through the different stages of depression and ignorance. It's entertainment.

 
Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
You'll have to do better than TopGear for referencing. With proper funding, alternative electricity sources could replace coal. Similarly some effort into batteries with higher energy density would alleviate those issues with electric cars.

But like i said, yes that would be more economical for the consumer, but very bad for the envirement, battery production creates massive ammounts of polution. And yes I do agree, we need to ditch coal power and get more solar, geothermal, wind and natural gas power, all of which don't create any polution. Fusion would also be a great producer of power. I don't remember what they use to start the reaction however, so I can't say if there is any radioactive waste involved, but I can imagine it would be very little, since the major product of fusion is helium, unlike fission which is plutonium.

Using Top Gear in this instance is like citing Mr. Bean as a thought-evoking psychological romp through the different stages of depression and ignorance. It's entertainment.

I am a big car fanatic, I know for a fact the facts they stated on the Prius ARE TRUE. I am a subscriber to 5 different car magazines, popular machanics and popular science. I have read numerous articles in various magazines that Prius' are the ****tiest car to buy if your concerned about the envirement because of the polution that is involved in creating the batteries.

 

Offline Spicious

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
natural gas power, all of which don't create any polution.
Can you try thinking about that one more time?

Quote
I am a big car fanatic, I know for a fact the facts they stated on the Prius ARE TRUE. I am a subscriber to 5 different car magazines, popular machanics and popular science. I have read numerous articles in various magazines that Prius' are the ****tiest car to buy if your concerned about the envirement because of the polution that is involved in creating the batteries.
Perhaps you could provide some of this evidence to the rest of us. I have to say I'm rather dubious about the credibility of those magazines.

 
Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
natural gas power, all of which don't create any polution.
Can you try thinking about that one more time?

Burning methane doesn't produce polution at all, its product is Carbon Dioxide (CO2), NOT Carbon Monoxide (CO) when it is setup properly, for example, why would you have a poluting element cook your food in your house. Methane gas is very clean. Which is why many people use it to heat their homes and cook their food on their natural gas burning stove. This is something I learned in Chemistry in high school about 4 years ago actually, that when the flame is blue it is producing Carbon Dioxide (CO2), when its orange its producing Carbon Monoxide (CO) which is why you see black smoke comming from the orange flame, but no smoke from the blue flame.

Quote
I am a big car fanatic, I know for a fact the facts they stated on the Prius ARE TRUE. I am a subscriber to 5 different car magazines, popular machanics and popular science. I have read numerous articles in various magazines that Prius' are the ****tiest car to buy if your concerned about the envirement because of the polution that is involved in creating the batteries.
Perhaps you could provide some of this evidence to the rest of us. I have to say I'm rather dubious about the credibility of those magazines.

Why would you doubt the creditibility of Popular Science and Popular Machanics, I believe popular machanics was the one that said that Hybrid Electric cars create TONS of polution in the making of their batteries.

Here is an article that explains why the prius is bad to the envirement :
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 02:18:11 am by [DW]-Hunter »

 

Offline Spicious

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
The smoke from the orange flame would most likely be carbon, given that carbon monoxide is colourless.
You deny carbon dioxide is a pollutant?

 
Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
You breathe out carbon dioxide everyday, it hasen't done any damage to the envirement in the past how many melleniums of the existance of life?

 

Offline Spicious

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
That only works if the amount stays relatively constant, which it isn't now.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
natural gas power, all of which don't create any polution.
Can you try thinking about that one more time?

Quote
I am a big car fanatic, I know for a fact the facts they stated on the Prius ARE TRUE. I am a subscriber to 5 different car magazines, popular machanics and popular science. I have read numerous articles in various magazines that Prius' are the ****tiest car to buy if your concerned about the envirement because of the polution that is involved in creating the batteries.
Perhaps you could provide some of this evidence to the rest of us. I have to say I'm rather dubious about the credibility of those magazines.

I did a quick Wiki search and found this little gem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNW_Marketing_Research

Never thought I'd live to see the day when a company logo was a blatant use of WordArt. I also found this article that talks about it.

The article in question by CNW Technologies is roughly 458 pages long. However, a lot of that appears to simply be tables of numbers. What did catch my eye when I started looking it over was this:
Quote
Over time and after on and off again discussions, as well as extensive Internet searches of available studies on this issue, it was discovered that many had tried, none had succeeded in measuring TOTAL energy consumption for the auto industry.

The evidence they present here doesn't support the conclusion. It's entirely possible that such a study was done, and completed successfully, but it wasn't available online. But in addition, their focus on "TOTAL" energy consumption also concerns me. Taken literally, it's impossible to determine such a figure with 100% accuracy. You can approximate but there's going to be a lot of different ways you can approximate, things you can include, etc.

But from a basic marketing POV, this makes sense. "There's a problem, and we have a solution!"

Quote
In many cases the jargon was overly technical and aimed at scientists and engineers.

Woah. Isn't that the point? Who do you think builds cars? Who are the people who most understand the issues at stake here?

Furthermore, the last paragraph had stated that nobody had succeeded at doing this. Why talk about jargon, then? All this seems to be is an attack on the style of writing for other reports that has nothing to do with whether the study was comprehensive or not. Indeed, I would expect a comprehensive study to require extensive knowledge of the processes in question in order to be able to fully understand the report - the kind of knowledge that a scientist or engineer would possess.

Quote
Government agencies are offering significant incentives for consumers to buy hybrids as are manufacturers. Is this misguided? Perhaps. We make no conclusion about such good intentions. Our goal, again, is simply to look at what society has to pay for the energy needed to support various vehicles.

At this point I'm getting kind of skeptical about the way this thing is written. From what they claim to be doing, they should be able to state with some confidence whether government subsidies towards hybrids actually are resulting in more environmentally-friendly measure.

Furthermore, they're putting all of this talk, all of this focus on hybrids, before they really start talking about the methods used. Even before you read the document, you can tell that they're putting an intense focus on hybrid cars.

Quote
Example: If the consumer lives in the Los Angeles Basin, reducing smog and contending with some of the country's highest fuel costs make a hybrid a solid and logical vehicle choice. What consumers need to know, however, is that the LA Basin and the Los Angelino's wallet might benefit, the energy demands and pollution are exported somewhere else – either to the country of manufacture or to the states where the eventual vehicle will be disposed through recycling or scrap.

"Los Angelino's wallet". 'k.... I think there's a "while" missing in there between the "that" and the "the", and "Los Angelino" is supposed to be...I dunno, Los Angeles? That doesn't make much sense, either. "The Los Angelos' wallet"? Is this some kind of slang for white people? Oh well.

I find it interesting that they're not willing to evaluate the effectiveness of government actions, but they are willing to speak with absolute certainty to consumers. If you buy a Prius, it will be just as or more environmentally costly, and the cost will be exported to somewhere else. There's no kind of conditional qualifiers on that sentence. (What if you were thinking of buying a Maybach, or it's a used vs new decision?)

Quote
This is a general-consumer report, not a technical document per se. It includes breakdowns of each vehicle's total energy requirements from Dust to Dust but does not include issues of gigajuelles, kW hours or other unfriendly (to consumers) terms. Perhaps, in time, we will release our data in such technical terms. First, however, we will only look at the energy consumption cost.

What's a juelle? Is that like some kind of German version of "joule"? And why would kilowatt-hours be unfriendly to consumers - what exactly do people see on their electric bills these days? Horsepower-seconds?

Furthermore, there's nothing stopping them from sticking them in an appendix or separate file, although that would make the document even longer than it is now. Speaking of which, how is a 458-page document consumer friendly?

Quote
The information contained is as accurate as we can make it currently although we believe it has an error margin somewhere between 11 and 14 percent due to shifting production plans and new technologies being implemented in the salvage industry which includes recycled, non-recyclable and re-used vehicle components. Over time, we hope to be able to reduce that error margin as data becomes more easily available. There are some disclaimers and caveats which you can find in the Appendix section.

This isn't stated in any kind of statistical manner that I'm familiar with. Exactly how certain is "We believe". Is that a "We're pretty sure" kind of "We believe", or is that a "These numbers just make intuitive sense" kind of we believe?

So I decided to take a look at the appendices, and I didn't see any kind of disclaimers and caveats. I did notice that they had about 56 appendices, none of which were given a title, and all of which appeared to be random hybrid-related news postings from the internet. (Perhaps that is the result of all their extensive internet searching) Note that Appendix UU consists entirely of comics. (pg 439-443) How much do you want to bet that they didn't bother to secure a copyright before including them in their document?

I could search more, but given that they can't take the time to even name their appendices so you can find data in any kind of meaningful way from the table of contents, and given that they apparently didn't take the time to run a spellchecker over their document for "gigajuelle", and given that they've basically admitted they're being as vague as possible in the document - I don't have any kind of faith in their study.

Conclusion
Based on their introduction, their document format, and - I have to admit - their logo, I do not have the confidence that this company is willing to go to the time and effort required to conduct a survey of this magnitude. I feel that they are relying on the size of the document to obfuscate the document to the point at which it is hard for anybody to conclusively attack it without going to a significant amount of trouble in order to do so. Probably, given the supporting documents in their appendix section, more effort than they put into the document.

Based on their statements, and again based on their supporting evidence, it looks like the majority of their initial research and a fair amount of their research conducted during the construction of the document came from a bunch of Google searches. The fact that they can't even spell joule suggests to me that they either didn't take, or didn't pay very much attention in the science or engineering classes that would have given them an understanding of the basics required to be able to understand the manufacturing process and the technology involved in this survey.

I could read further but I think it's pretty clear from the introduction that I'm not their intended audience. I'd expect them to back their claims up with specific facts and numbers - they, on the other hand, explicitly state and imply that they are not releasing definite figures because they're too technical. There's no way to prove they're correct and there's no way to prove them wrong. Perhaps they're taking a page from Intelligent Design.

Finally, though they state that Toyota is an unreliable source, they also make it clear that a large portion of the information that they're relying on to produce their data comes from Toyota itself. Since the document seems entirely uncited with regards to what pieces of data come from what sources (I can't find any kind of citations index or citation footnotes anywhere), this puts their data on the entire Toyota line into doubt. Thus their most controversial claims are also the most uncertain ones.

EDIT: And really, that is a horrible logo. I haven't used WordArt in years, but even I can tell in one glance that it's one of the preset WordArt templates. They didn't even bother to customize the colors or anything.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 03:15:27 am by WMCoolmon »
-C

 

Offline eliex

  • 210
Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
I wouldn't burn methane unless if I really had to. It's not toxic, but in large amounts can really do a lot of damage especially since everywhere is so prone to gas leakages these days. (OK, a bit of exaggeration.) 

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
jet engines burn karosene, which can be distilled from coal. if we run out of oil there is still an alternate source for jet fuel.

Potatos too, I'm told. (Germans did it in WW2, which was pretty good evidence Hitler didn't give a rat's ass about his own people; a lot of them came close to starving.)
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Offline Nuke

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
i think they should centralize energy production and transmit it over the power grid, then we can use lithium ion battery cars, prototypes have good figures, a range of 300 miles, and sports car performance. this also means beefing up the grid, more nuke reactors and hydro plants, make power cheaper by reducing the overhead and loss of physical distribution. any major car factory could put out a general purpose battery car in less than a year if they wanted to. and most people would buy it.

Do you know how much polution is created in the process of the batteries for the electric and hybrid electric cars? Its far more then a land rover discovery makes in its life time to make 1 single Prius battery. Electric and Hybrid Gasoline-Electric cars are NOT the answer if you want less polution. Proper desposal of batteries are a pain in the ass, and most electricty is created by Coal Power, so increasing the electricty usage with electric cars would just make the powerplants work harder, thus making them polute more.

And for those Hybrid Gasoline-Electric car lovers, hate to bust your pride but you get more MPG in a Volkswagen Golf TDI then a Toyota Prius, and thats not even hybrid.

Truthfully, Now that car manufacturers have put filters on diesel engines and we have low-sulfer diesel now, I think Diesel is the way to go... Its cleaner then gasoline now with all the filtering that is going on with it. And if you use Bio-Diesel you also get better MPG and less harmful emitions aswell. And if you look at the figures of how much green-house gases are produced by cars, Its a really minute percentage.

Bottom line, HYBRIDS SUCK.
Hybrid lovers, watch these:
TopGear - S05E07
TopGear - S11E01

nowhere did i mention hybrids, i was thinking about the tesla roadster :D

hybrids suffer from more weight, from having both an electrical and a gas engine, requiring pore power to get the sme performance. ditch the engine all together. theres really no reason to generate the energy on the spot with an ineffitient gasolene engine. let me point out that any engine output is gonna be 75% waste heat. it would be more efficient to burn it in gas turbine engines at the power plant. this allows for an advanced system to possibly capture some of that waste heat to produce steam to spin turbines, makeing even more power. still id say we conserve our gasolene for the trucking and shipping industry and just build nuke plants.

nuke reactors are your friends. some current reactor designs are down right idiot proof. like some of the reactors in canada,which use heavy water in place of control rods and uses lower grade nuclear fuel. if you're in danger of melting down, just flood the reaction vessel from one of the several always full and redundant heavy water tanks.

then we need to improve battery technology. we come up with a battery design that is easily recyclable yet have enough energy density to power a car with very little weight. thats why the tesla roadster hauls ass, because it has its power to weight ratio in ts favor.

jet engines burn karosene, which can be distilled from coal. if we run out of oil there is still an alternate source for jet fuel.

Potatos too, I'm told. (Germans did it in WW2, which was pretty good evidence Hitler didn't give a rat's ass about his own people; a lot of them came close to starving.)

yea thats it, we will just run vehicles on vodka! :D
a waste of good booze though.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2008, 12:21:09 pm by Nuke »
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
Quote
yea thats it, we will just run vehicles on vodka! Big grin
a waste of good booze though.

You do realise that a great deal of Eastern Europe would rather revert to bartering vegetables and riding horses before that happened ;)

 
Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
jet engines burn karosene, which can be distilled from coal. if we run out of oil there is still an alternate source for jet fuel.

So we could just take the bike and cycle to the airport! Weezee!

  

Offline Mika

  • 28
Re: Fossil Fuel... Supplies Dwindling? I think not...
I should keep my mouth shut up about this, but really in Siberia? Good luck in keeping the:

1) necessary equipment next to you
and
2) the finished infrastructure on your side.

I will not say more about that (in Internet, that is).

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.