[Kosh]

A new front in the War on Science

It was easy to miss the part where the field trip leader said the outcrop formed during Noah’s Flood. After all, “During these catastrophic flood flows, turbulent, hyperconcentrated suspensions were observed to transform laminar mudflows” sounds like a reasonable description of alluvial fan processes. And “massive marine transgression” sounds scientific enough. But when creationist geologists use those phrases, they take on a very different meaning.In almost every way, the “Garden of the Gods at Colorado Springs” excursion at the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America (GSA) last year was a normal — even enjoyable — field trip. Standard geologic terminology was used in the accompanying field trip guide, and throughout the trip itself. The trip leaders discussed past events in terms of millions and billions of years. At each stop along the trip, the guides relied on orthodox geologic thinking, including a standard examination of sedimentary features and the nature of contacts between units.

But in reality, the trip was anything but a normal geology field trip. Instead, it was an example of a new strategy from creationists to interject their ideas into mainstream geology: They lead field trips and present posters and talks at scientific meetings. They also avoid overtly stating anything truly contrary to mainstream science.

But when the meeting is over, the creationist participants go home and proudly proclaim that mainstream science has accepted their ideas.
It’s a crafty way of giving credence to creationism. But is there anything mainstream scientists, or the conveners of meetings and field trips, can or should do about it?

You know if we don't end up in another Dark Age by the end of this century I would be truely impressed. 

[Pred the Penguin]

I think you're reading too much into it. Hasn't this kinda stuff been happening for a long time now?

[redsniper]

Well at least they're still talking in millions and billions of years...

[General Battuta]

General advice:

1) stop talking about wars on abstract concepts, it is dumb and never accomplishes anything (except random fearmongering)

2) do not practice random fearmongering (especially about old stuff)

3) don't panic

[AtomicClucker]

General advice:

1) stop talking about wars on abstract concepts, it is dumb and never accomplishes anything (except random fearmongering)

2) do not practice random fearmongering (especially about old stuff)

3) don't panic

Sounds like the "War on Christmas" from a few years back. Lots of fudd, little reality, and plenty of misquotations.

[General Battuta]

For anyone in the thread who actually bothered to finish the article (the OP didn't), the author explains how this is a good thing and a healthy step for science.

Creationists may come to conclusions that the geological community challenges, but as long as they present their conclusions as derived from accepted scientific methodology, rather than religion, it is unfair to reject their participation. In any event, the field trip I attended was not a platform for proselytizing to participants, but involved real observations on real outcrops — even if the perspective was slanted towards a nonstandard interpretation. No harm, no foul.

Creationists will continue to promote Flood Geology and their radical interpretation of Grand Canyon strata because a young Earth is critical to their rejection of evolution. As in Field trip 409, observations are often made that are indistinguishable from standard geology, but young-Earth conclusions drawn from them are unwarranted. Both the observations and the conclusions should be vigorously challenged: Creationists have a bad track record for careful methodology, and they systematically omit observations that disprove their model. But such evaluations are part of normal science, and applying them to creationist claims — rather than banning creationists from our meetings — is healthy for the field, and it avoids letting creationists claim the mantle of the martyr.

Very sensible, I applaud. Thread should be retitled 'Geology handling creationism sensibly' for 100% less blind hysteria.

[G0atmaster]

At least this is geologists talking about geology, and not a psychologist talking metaphysics...

[Nuke]

i wish bible thumbers would realize that the story of noahs ark was likely an ancient hebrew folk tale that was passed down by word of mouth for countless generations before someone decided to write it down some 4000 years ago. i also wonder how many biblical authors intended their works to be used as a religious text to be thumped by those looking to use science to prove their own faith (or worse, as a tool to convert atheists or those of other religions).

[Veers]

i wish bible thumbers would realize that the story of noahs ark was likely an ancient hebrew folk tale that was passed down by word of mouth for countless generations before someone decided to write it down some 4000 years ago. i also wonder how many biblical authors intended their works to be used as a religious text to be thumped by those looking to use science to prove their own faith (or worse, as a tool to convert atheists or those of other religions).

I thought that mainstream geologists also (and still do) agree that there was a world-wide flood during the Earth's history. I'm not asking for the approximate 'dates' though, because as noted. Views will differ greatly.

And also, I specifically remember the Bible being quoted as either, "One of the most accurate pieces of historic texts" or "The most accurate", that are currently available to historians.


I'm not looking for an arguement or such, and no. I cannot produce my sources on this information as I do not have them. And I shall be reading this article in the morning.

[NGTM-1R]

I thought that mainstream geologists also (and still do) agree that there was a world-wide flood during the Earth's history. I'm not asking for the approximate 'dates' though, because as noted. Views will differ greatly.

No.

[Black Wolf]

i wish bible thumbers would realize that the story of noahs ark was likely an ancient hebrew folk tale that was passed down by word of mouth for countless generations before someone decided to write it down some 4000 years ago. i also wonder how many biblical authors intended their works to be used as a religious text to be thumped by those looking to use science to prove their own faith (or worse, as a tool to convert atheists or those of other religions).

I thought that mainstream geologists also (and still do) agree that there was a world-wide flood during the Earth's history. I'm not asking for the approximate 'dates' though, because as noted. Views will differ greatly.

As mainstream geologist I can assure you this is not the case. There have been catastophic floods in the past, the most notable being the black and mediterranean seas filling up, and there have been sea level changes (Often significant, and occasionally rapid (i.e. Thousands of years)) but never worldwide and catastrophic ala Noah's flood. It's 100% myth, or parable if you prefer.

[Flipside]

I think it's a confusion that arose from the fact that many religions have 'flood' stories in them, but then, like Earthquakes, Volcanos and other natural disasters, when you are on the recieving end, it sticks in memory. Most human habitable areas have been flooded at one point or another, we like to live near water, and before we learnt about tectonics, weather patterns etc, as far as we knew, it was deliberate...

[Mikes]

As mainstream geologist I can assure you this is not the case. There have been catastophic floods in the past, the most notable being the black and mediterranean seas filling up, and there have been sea level changes (Often significant, and occasionally rapid (i.e. Thousands of years)) but never worldwide and catastrophic ala Noah's flood. It's 100% myth, or parable if you prefer.

Just think about what the average person knew about "the world" back then. It's easy to see how some region that was flooded literally meant "the end of the world" as the people who lived in that region understood it back then. Add a few generations of oral story telling... and it's a wonder that there's only one flood referenced in the Bible instead of several.

[Nuke]

i wish bible thumbers would realize that the story of noahs ark was likely an ancient hebrew folk tale that was passed down by word of mouth for countless generations before someone decided to write it down some 4000 years ago. i also wonder how many biblical authors intended their works to be used as a religious text to be thumped by those looking to use science to prove their own faith (or worse, as a tool to convert atheists or those of other religions).

I thought that mainstream geologists also (and still do) agree that there was a world-wide flood during the Earth's history. I'm not asking for the approximate 'dates' though, because as noted. Views will differ greatly.

As mainstream geologist I can assure you this is not the case. There have been catastophic floods in the past, the most notable being the black and mediterranean seas filling up, and there have been sea level changes (Often significant, and occasionally rapid (i.e. Thousands of years)) but never worldwide and catastrophic ala Noah's flood. It's 100% myth, or parable if you prefer.

i wouldnt say that its a total myth, but if you assume that the story had been a word of mouth folk tale for many generations that was likely embellished and altered with each retelling, and then eventually written down. so a story about how someone survived a actual flood could have been transformed into the biblical epic it is today. needless to say i wonder how many of the works that form the bible were twisted to form that evil book that bible thumpers thump, in order to perpetuate the prejudices of millinea old writers.

[watsisname]

i wish bible thumbers would realize that the story of noahs ark was likely an ancient hebrew folk tale that was passed down by word of mouth for countless generations before someone decided to write it down some 4000 years ago. i also wonder how many biblical authors intended their works to be used as a religious text to be thumped by those looking to use science to prove their own faith (or worse, as a tool to convert atheists or those of other religions).

I thought that mainstream geologists also (and still do) agree that there was a world-wide flood during the Earth's history. I'm not asking for the approximate 'dates' though, because as noted. Views will differ greatly.

As mainstream geologist I can assure you this is not the case. There have been catastophic floods in the past, the most notable being the black and mediterranean seas filling up, and there have been sea level changes (Often significant, and occasionally rapid (i.e. Thousands of years)) but never worldwide and catastrophic ala Noah's flood. It's 100% myth, or parable if you prefer.

Just curious, is there any figure on the maximal percentage of earth's surface that has been covered in water at any point in its history (with reasonable supporting evidence of course?).  I'd imagine there would be times between orogonies and during a warmer phase in the climate (ie, no ice caps) where much more than 70% was oceanic.  Not that this really matters to the Flood myth.

[Black Wolf]

It's a little bit complicated. Sea levels at the moment are actually relatively low on a long term scale, but on a shorter term scale, we're in an interglacial, so they're relatively high. For example, when there was more water locked up in the polar ice caps over the last few million years you had land bridges that allowed passage across the bering strait and whatnot, However if you look past, I dunno, 10 or 20 million years you're almost always significantly higher. The peak value is debatable, it's easily passed 100m higher than now (that's probably close to the long term average), but figuring out the absolute highest values are complicated by tectonic changes in the heights of land surfaces and stuff, and erosion and whatnot. So giving an estimate for the total amount of oceanic at any given time is difficult - I'm not even willing to hazard a guess, really, but I can say with certainty it's never hit 100% in the last 500 million years (since we have contiguous evidence for land based life from that time).