[Phantom Hoover]

He's just voicing Heinlein. He'll grow up eventually. I think.

heinlein didn't

[swashmebuckle]

His argument regarding conscription is like the Swiss Nation State in that they were both employed to great effect by the Nazis.

Take that, Switzerland!

[NGTM-1R]

heinlein didn't

He's not Heinlein reincarnated. He doesn't write nearly well enough.

[Hobbie]

Wasn't Heinlein into the opposite of this sort of stuff?

[Phantom Hoover]

heinlein, from my limited knowledge of the man, waltzed across a range of political creeds across his career, but managed to be a tosspot in all of them

[Nakura]

His argument regarding conscription is like the Swiss Nation State in that they were both employed to great effect by the Nazis.

Take that, Switzerland!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

Nazis also supported environment protection, animal rights, spaceflight, welfare programs and an interstate highway system. I guess those are all bad too then, right?

[Apollo]

OK, I may have some issues with other European countries but conscription is definitely a greater violation of individual rights than hate speech laws. Forcing someone into a position where they could potentially die in an entirely unjust war does not uphold freedom.

Also, being in the military and fighting for freedom are not the same thing. The military mentality, at least in the US, is one of unquestioning or nearly unquestioning obedience. That is hardly beneficial for democracy.

I actually don't have any particular opinion on Switzerland though. I am not very familiar with that country.

EDIT: removed quotations because interpretations.

Could you please elaborate on why you think conscription is a greater violation of individual liberty than "anti-hate speech" laws? All conscription does is ask that citizens perform their civic duty. How is it any different from, say, jury duty?

If you live in a democratic system, even a military-esque democratic system, then the decision to go to war was made with the approval of the people [or at least their democratically elected representatives]. If you don't agree with the war, then you have every right to vote against it, protest against it and help convince others to oppose the war. Those are your rights in a free and open society.

Conscription is a greater violation of individual liberty than hate speech laws because it puts people in a position where they could kill or be killed by others without giving them any say in the matter. It is one of the most authoritarian government institutions you could possibly have in a society that still has a democratic political system.

Unfortunately, fear-mongering, human aggression, and bad logic ensure that there is always going to be some chance of getting the voters to support a stupid war. If everyone is forced to fight it, regardless of their personal views, than you have a tyranny of the majority. There is no protection of minority rights. To answer one of your questions, it is different from jury duty because of the vastly greater consequences for the participants.

Now, such a system can be neccesary in extreme circumstances. But so can other authoritarian measures. This does not make them desirable in an ordinary situation.

[An4ximandros]

Heinlein was against conscription, he believed that a state that forced people to fight for them was one that did not deserve to exist.

[Apollo]

His argument regarding conscription is like the Swiss Nation State in that they were both employed to great effect by the Nazis.

Take that, Switzerland!

Yay Godwin time!

EDIT: You have provided him with a completely fallacious opposing argument that he has shot down. There is no better way to feed a troll, or make an incorrect person more confident of their stance (depending on how you view him).

I think I read that wrong. Sorry about that.

[StarSlayer]

I believe that only those who are willing to die for freedom and democracy deserve it. To each their own though.

While you may not be capable of remembering your statements I suffer no such deficiency.

Your posts have been rife with inconsistent and self contradictory remarks.  Either you are obfuscating stupidity or are not capable of maintaining meaningful discourse.  As it stands you are not even useful as a whetstone with which to sharpen arguments.

[haloboy100]

EDIT: You have provided him with a completely fallacious opposing argument that he has shot down. There is no better way to feed a troll, or make an incorrect person more confident of their stance (depending on how you view him).

Since Nakura obviously missed it, I'm going to point out that StarSlayer's statement was definitely sarcasm.

[Apollo]

EDIT: You have provided him with a completely fallacious opposing argument that he has shot down. There is no better way to feed a troll, or make an incorrect person more confident of their stance (depending on how you view him).

Since Nakura obviously missed it, I'm going to point out that StarSlayer's statement was definitely sarcasm.

StarSlayer's or swashmebuckle's?

Did I miss it too? *facepalm* bad Apollo

[haloboy100]

I ****ed up too. I meant swashmebuckle's. 

[swashmebuckle]

I reserve the right to preemptively Godwin Nakura threads until they get better or I get monkeyed so help me Karajorma. I have nothing against the Swiss other than this thread, but by Karajorma, HLP's very way of life is under attack--this is no time for neutrality!

[Hobbie]

I don't think we were expecting a sort of Spanish inquisition!

(I am all for derailing threads that are devolving into fighting with Monty Python quotes!)

[Black Wolf]

Right. Well, if this thread is going to wander even further off into nonsense, I think we can afford to shut it down for a few days while we decide what needs to happen. If need be, we can reopen it later on.