[0rph3u5]

(I usually don't discuss important topics on the internet, because discussions are easily derailed online. But this is a moment when I'd like to hear variety of voices on this subject)

Today the voters in Switzerland where asked to vote on a referendum that dealt with their countries policices towards imigration and with that the Free Movement policies the Swiss have with the EU. The referendum called the introduction of quotas for people moving into Switzerland from abroad and imposing limits on foreigners' access to the Swiss job market (which was opened to EU citizens in 2007).

The referendum passed narrowly (50,3 percent in favour) but it passed.

What I'm most concerned about, is what is going to happen in the wake of this event with the Free Movment policies of the EU, esspecially what the more national-minded parties and movements across EU might make of the swiss vote; I mean, we already have heard a lot of public talk against Free Momvement policies within the EU in the past months, e.g. from the british Torries or the german CSU. I fear that we are about so see a new quality in rhetorics and initatives which not only the political far-right (to use that simplyfing system) might carry.

EDIT2: One must also consider that the elections to the European Parliament are held in May...

Discussion of this topic might do some good as it could generate an insight into why Free Movment is important but it might also show that such policies are not as desired as some think they are/should be.

In short, Free Movement in the EU: thought, comment, pro and cons ... just have at it...

EDIT: sample news link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26108597
^{Note on the BBC article: the first picture doesn't show quota supporters but is titled as if it would}

[SF-Junky]

I wouldn't say that too much will come out of this particular approach. Nothing has been decided yet, this is just a mandate for the swiss government to re-negotiate the free movement treaty with the EU and all that quota stuff isn't too precisely afaik. The swiss government will, in my estimation, not negotiate too harshly with the EU, because a) the referendum got passed with only a very tiny majority, and b) the swiss economy relies on free movement of goods and services (and people) with the EU states. They will not want to piss them off too much.

And for the CSU, you can just ignore them. Seehofer is a bull****ter out of who's bull**** NEVER comes anything specific. What we heard from him and is totally unimportant party the past few weeks was nothing but campaigning to rally their supporters for the upcoming EP election.

The UK referendum whether they should stay in the EU or not is far more interesting imo.

[Grizzly]

Note that the "Free movement policies of the EU" are not actually of the EU. The free movement across mainland europe is part of the "Schengen treaty". Although it is closely related to the EU, there are odd exceptions, such as Switzerland, Iceland and Norway taking part, and GB and Ireland not taking part.
It suprises me, then, that the Tories are talking about it as it doesn't affect them.

I am interested to see how this affects Switzerlands' economic stance and foreign relations. Then again, Switzerland has always tried to be fiercely independent (and I was actually suprised to learn they signed the Schengen treaty in the first place) but... hmm. I wonder if it could be used as an example in political discussions for fully fledged EU countries wishing to leave.

[SF-Junky]

I am interested to see how this affects Switzerlands' economic stance and foreign relations. Then again, Switzerland has always tried to be fiercely independent (and I was actually suprised to learn they signed the Schengen treaty in the first place) but... hmm. I wonder if it could be used as an example in political discussions for fully fledged EU countries wishing to leave.

Swiss politicians like to tell their voters how much the hate the EU, but in fact they try to adopt as much of the EU common market legislature because it simply makes things easier for their own economy.

And what ecxactly are the Tories complaining about? I am not so up to date when it comes to GB politics. All I heard, recently, was they don't want EU citizens to have access to GB's social security system  - a debate which is not related to Schengen.

[Grizzly]

Oh I don't know. I just read "Tories" in the OP, so I wondered too.

[666maslo666]

I am all for strict restrictions on immigration from outside the EU, however I believe most of immigrants into Switzerland are from inside the EU. In that case, I still think it is a good thing, as long as the regulation targets only cheap labour while leaving skilled workers mostly alone. It remains to be seen how the specifics of implementation will look like, until then I reserve my judgement.

[The E]

I still think it is a good thing, as long as the regulation targets only cheap labour while leaving skilled workers mostly alone. It remains to be seen how the specifics of implementation will look like, until then I reserve my judgement.

Here's a paradox for you: A big part of the reason for the way this referendum ended was the influx of cheap skilled labor from eastern europe. Suddenly, the middle class felt that it was threatened by those immigrants, since they were willing to work for much less in the same, highly skilled jobs.

Cheap labor, in other words, is never the problem. The people who vote on these issues aren't threatened by them, not directly.

Not that it matters, though. The Swiss are as free to set their policies as any other sovereign country in this world; if they want these laws, they have the right to demand them. Whether that proposal has been fully thought through is doubtful though. There's going to be quite a shakeup in the relationship between the EU and Switzerland, and I doubt that this is going to go well for the Swiss.

[Grizzly]

Here's a paradox for you: A big part of the reason for the way this referendum ended was the influx of cheap skilled labor from eastern europe. Suddenly, the middle class felt that it was threatened by those immigrants, since they were willing to work for much less in the same, highly skilled jobs.

I am quite sure that this does not count for Switzerland, but in the Netherlands, part of the reason why eastern immigrants are so cheap is because companies have to pay social security fees (or medical fees or... I don't exactly know) as well as the normal loan. The thing is that the cost of the fees are determined by the country the worker is from, and the fees are much lower in say, Poland, then they are in the Netherlands. As a result, a minimum wage worker from Poland is always cheaper then one of the Netherlands.
(also, they are far easier exploitable as they don't know what their rights are)
Just a tidbit of info I wanted to throw out there.

[SF-Junky]

I am quite sure that this does not count for Switzerland, but in the Netherlands, part of the reason why eastern immigrants are so cheap is because companies have to pay social security fees (or medical fees or... I don't exactly know) as well as the normal loan. The thing is that the cost of the fees are determined by the country the worker is from, and the fees are much lower in say, Poland, then they are in the Netherlands. As a result, a minimum wage worker from Poland is always cheaper then one of the Netherlands.
(also, they are far easier exploitable as they don't know what their rights are)
Just a tidbit of info I wanted to throw out there.

Sounds like the same thing we have in Germany, social security contributions (Sozialabgaben). But why in heavens name does their level depend on the nationality of the person you employ? I can hardly immagine that this is really what you mean. What kind of a weird regulation would that be? In Germany this would likely even be against the constitution.

[Grizzly]

AFAIK, the fees go directly to the country's social security network. Poland's social security network demands far less from companies employing Polish workers.

[Wobble73]

I can't see that? The Polish workers here in the UK would recieve the same NHS treatments as any other UK citizen, the Polish people working in the UK would have to pay the same Tax and National Insurance as everyone else to receive such treatment? How could that effect what they have to pay?

[Grizzly]

I can't see that? The Polish workers here in the UK would recieve the same NHS treatments as any other UK citizen, the Polish people working in the UK would have to pay the same Tax and National Insurance as everyone else to receive such treatment? How could that effect what they have to pay?

It's a dutch thing, and a specific dutch thing. I don't exactly know how it works :/. The thing is that here, the employer is responsible for some sort of social security, and he has to pay fewer money to Poland since they have got a different system then the Netherlands. It's really weird. It's also idiotic.