Author Topic: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back  (Read 5551 times)

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
Do I really need to? Do you remotely believe their revenues on renewables are more than a tiny percentage of the total? It's like you're asking me evidence that the moon isn't made of cheese.
How tiny a percentage then? <0.1%, 0.1%, 0.5%, 1%, 5%, 10%, 20%?

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
This is tiresome. Really, you have no idea?

Well, a really quick digging confirms that while Shell is a 451 billion buck revenue sized company, the only solar-based **** they have right now is from a company they bought in 2006, SolarWorld, which has a staggering 1 billion revenue. It's big. But, 0.2%?

 

Offline The E

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
Instead of being smugly all-knowing and assuming that everyone else is on the same page, please consider that the rest of us peasants would really appreciate it if you would divulge the pieces of knowledge that lead you to your conclusions. This may sound dull and boring to your ears, and I humbly beg forgiveness for my lowborn ignorance, but explaining where you're coming from will be much less aggravating than you spending a whole post on "I thought this should be obvious to everyone!"
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
I'm sorry I just thought it was overwhelmingly obvious that oil companies's 99% revenue came from fossil fuels, and that any investment in "renewables" and so on were just green washing, marketing or just small hedges for the future. Are people this unaware of the orders of magnitude of difference between fossil fuel economies and renewable economies in terms of scale? Well I guess they are, I learned that.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
Well, it's actually this obvious for me. They're oil companies, aren't they? :) They wouldn't be calling themselves that if they had a major "green" source of revenue. They do have a share in renewables, but it's tiny.
...as extracting oil becomes more expensive and as power demand rises. And it will rise, there's no stopping that.

What is no stopping is demand rise, which has (and will continue to) drive prices of oil up, up, up. If you have no competitors, they will go even more up. Pressure from extraction costs will only add to the troubles, they will lobby as much as they can to destroy any competition.
Except that oil can't keep up with the rising demand for power. We're relying more and more on electricity, and at the same time, people don't want new coal or oil burning plants, not only because of some nebulous "ecology", but also because they're bloody stinky. People don't appreciate a layer of soot deposited on their balconies every morning (well, the plants are cleaner than that nowadays, but still not as good as nukes). Power demands will not only continue to rise, but so will the rate at which the consumption increases. And the old-style plants can only be upgraded so much. In perspective, nuclear is the only way to power the future society.

Also, since oil extraction is gonna be getting more expensive, nuclear companies will have more and more of an edge. They can give more power, handle more demand, and do all this for a fraction of the price of a classic power plant with the same capabilities. Oil companies should be investing in nuclear technology if they want to stay relevant. Also, I don't believe even oil company lobby can kill fusion power that is now on the horizon. The advantages are just too great, and fusion is pretty much immune to "nuclear bomb" card so called "ecologists" keep playing against fission plants.

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
This is tiresome. Really, you have no idea?

Well, a really quick digging confirms that while Shell is a 451 billion buck revenue sized company, the only solar-based **** they have right now is from a company they bought in 2006, SolarWorld, which has a staggering 1 billion revenue. It's big. But, 0.2%?

Other way around. They got rid of their solar business in 06, for the most part, and completely exited it a bit later. And you're right, it should be common knowledge that these oil companies are basically ignoring renewables, and if people didn't already know... well, try the first link on Google for "Shell Annual report" and that pretty much tells the story.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
Am I reading this thread as more potentially hostile than it is?


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Offline karajorma

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
Nope, it reads about as hostile as it is.

And it stops now.
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Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
Also, since oil extraction is gonna be getting more expensive, nuclear companies will have more and more of an edge. They can give more power, handle more demand, and do all this for a fraction of the price of a classic power plant with the same capabilities. Oil companies should be investing in nuclear technology if they want to stay relevant. Also, I don't believe even oil company lobby can kill fusion power that is now on the horizon. The advantages are just too great, and fusion is pretty much immune to "nuclear bomb" card so called "ecologists" keep playing against fission plants.

I agree with much of what you say, but I think you are not interpreting correctly the oil companies' best interests. They are oil companies, and they will continue to do so. Demand will rise faster than production will ever be able to keep up, which will create a slow squeeze of the oil market, thus rising its price. This has been going on for more than 10 years now, and its effect is that oil companies are doing really really well. Now there might be individual companies whose best strategy should be hedging quite a lot due to them not having access to enough wells, but generally the companies that do have access to the oil will only benefit from this increased shortage.

What happens in the market then is that this price increase will benefit renewables or alternatives as well, giving them an "umbrella" that will enable them to compete more efficiently. This is what is supposed in "free markets" (although I am well aware this is hardly one). The price of oil goes up, signalling everyone that we should look up other kinds of energy sources for there is big money to win.

Given this, it is optimal strategy to undermine every state benefit to alternative power sources to stop these companies from benefitting from this "umbrella", so that they don't lose custumers, so that they don't lose money.

 

Offline Dragon

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
They can't drive the price too high, either. This is business, afterall, if they made oil prices too high, suddenly silly stuff like burning weed in a powerplant becomes viable (this was actually done once, after a particularly massive drug seizure). Shortage will drive the prices up, up to a point people won't be able to afford oil at all. And it will also drive the costs up, pretty much without regard of anyone being able to afford the stuff. Your assumption works on short term, but remember, this can't quite go on forever. Lobby is one thing, but at some point even bribing everyone won't do. While I know plenty of politicians that would ruin their own country to make a quick buck, someone is going to realize oil has literally no advantages when it's more expensive than (ridiculously expensive today) solar power. This is going to happen someday, simply for the reason of people generally wanting to spend less money. You can see it now with hybrid cars. Prices became too high, and suddenly companies like Tesla became a smashing success. Not because they're clean, because electricity is cheaper than gasoline. If at some point oil is gonna cost more than LH2, then someone will, sooner or later, start selling LH2 conversion kits for cars and powerplants. And then start selling LH2, and making profits off that. Instead of driving oil prices up, oil companies should begin acquiring nuclear technology, otherwise they're going to come crashing down when someone else brings it into market. It's a bubble, and it's going to burst, eventually.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
No one said "forever", these companies work thinking in the next quarter, not the next decade. And considering "next quarter", it's always the optimal strategy to undermine any competing technology or energy source, even if in the long run the "battle" is "lost", so to speak. In real terms, the battle will never be lost. The oil price is mostly optimal in managing demand and supply, which means that if the price of oil goes up, it just means that the demand is bigger than the supply, and that demand is to be "cut short", IOW a means of rationing a scarce supply to a worldwide surge of demand (developing countries are skyrocketing their demand for the past 10 years now).

While you are right that an increase of oil prices will cut demand, the fact is that is the whole point. The price rose and will rise even more because the demand has to be rationed down to the supply level. Peak Oil is not a catastrophe, but its general point should be acknowledged: oil supply will not be able to increase to 150 million barrels per day, and so one thing has to give, either demand or price. And demand is not slowing down sufficiently, thus price has to increase. And it has. Just look at the historical price for the past 20 years.

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« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 04:12:13 am by Luis Dias »

  

Offline Dragon

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Re: The Fossil Empire Strikes Back
No one said "forever", these companies work thinking in the next quarter, not the next decade.
This is the whole problem. "Next quarter" is short-term thinking, a strategy that will not survive if not backed by a viable long-term one. There are companies who are thinking in the next decade (anything by Elon Musk is, for example, known for that), and by the time this decade rolls around, they might suddenly register galloping profits, while oil companies tank. Yes, generally, there's a relation between demand, supply and price that allows oil companies to bring demand down to supply level. But the world is going to need more energy, and at some point, more than oil companies can provide. And if oil companies can't deliver (or are unaffordable), they'll simply turn away towards other ways of generating the required power. If the same companies don't offer this kind of services, they'll simply be ditched, while those that did look that far forward will start raking in money, which they could then spend on R&D and marketing, turning the tables on oil suppliers and taking away a fair share of their market. While there's still a lot of animosity regarding nuclear power, it's generally decreasing, and even "renewables" are consistently improving with time. I don't think oil companies will be able to buy those firms by the time their long-term value becomes short-term one.