[Flipside]

The funniest part of that any organisation with half a brain would not be using most of the keywords that Echelon was originally designated to pick up, and used transplant words that would rotate from one conversation to another, so a simple conversation arranging to go out for a drink in, say, Manchester, could actually be a coded description of where and when a bomb was going off in London.

Thus, Echelon has, for the main part, proved to be a massive waste of resources for capturing all but small-time operations.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Echelon is reportedly run by the USA primarily, in conjunction with the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.  I'm not sure how much information was ever declassified, but the system was initially created as a method to monitor Soviet communications during the Cold War.  

Apparently it's essentially a giant keyword based system that sifts through text and perhaps even voice searching for combinations of words - such as Allah, bomb, President, nuclear etc in the same text.  This stuff is then sent to analysts (obviously highly filtered due to the volume of traffic).  I think it's more about identifying specific patterns of message rather than reading the individual ones, however.

Australia, New Zealand, and the Netherlands have however confirmed that Echelon does exist, although not the specifities of its operations.   Former CIA Director R. James Woolsey admitted using the system to uncover information about foreign companies using bribes to win contracts, as a specific example.

Actually, and I may be completely wrong here, the basic premise is that because all the member nations (Canada, US, UK, Australia etc) are legally not permitted to spy on their own citizens, they just ask one of the other countries to do it for them, and pass on any useful information, while they turn a blind eye. AFAIK, Echelon is more directed towards domestic spying, political leaders and such, which is why its so secret, rather than spying on "the enemy", which they can do quite openly.

I know there's a "Jam Echelon Day" where people worldwide send messages with as many suspicous words as possible, to screw with the system. Actually, I just do that every once in a while anyway, cause having the NSA listen to my phone calls makes me feel all important 'n ****.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor


Actually, and I may be completely wrong here, the basic premise is that because all the member nations (Canada, US, UK, Australia etc) are legally not permitted to spy on their own citizens, they just ask one of the other countries to do it for them, and pass on any useful information, while they turn a blind eye. AFAIK, Echelon is more directed towards domestic spying, political leaders and such, which is why its so secret, rather than spying on "the enemy", which they can do quite openly.

I know there's a "Jam Echelon Day" where people worldwide send messages with as many suspicous words as possible, to screw with the system. Actually, I just do that every once in a while anyway, cause having the NSA listen to my phone calls makes me feel all important 'n ****.

Well, I wouldn't be too surprised atall if Echelons' main purpose is currently and was initially to spy domestically; the only thing is that to use it to allow other nations to spy upon your own country is itself creating a security risk - friendly nations still spy on each other after all.  Other thing is that domestic spying might be illegal, but that doesn't matter if noone catches you.

However, the justification for the intial creation would certainly have been the Soviet threat, particularly as IIRc the UKUSA treaty/agreement (involving the 5 mentioned nations) was signed in something like 1948 as the Soviet army settled in across Eastern Europe.

The reason for the secrecy over it, either way, is obvious - to make sure people (domestic, Soviet, Islamic militant, etc) don't know how to try and circumvent it.  Whilst you may 'openly' spy on a hostile nation, you never ever reveal the methods you use.

[Swamp_Thing]

Not only are they spying on private citizens, they are corporate spying aswell. Lots of secrets were stollen. The countries envolved in running Echelon are using it also to spy on each other for corporate gain. It´s a brave new world, fellas!

And Rictor, you are absolutelly right. Because the constitution forbides them of spying on their own citizens, they simply "ask" one of the partners to do it for them, since they are not legally held accountable. It´s a loophole that they use shamelessly.
Latelly, the biggest victim of Echelon has been France. Lots of corporate secrets were stollen to harm France´s industry abroad, because they opposed the war...

[Flipside]

After the Cold War was effectively over, America had a whole pile of Spy Satellites that they didn't really have much to do with. So they hovered them over Europe and used them to spy on Industry with an eye to boost their own.

Such is the wonderful relations of the modern world

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Rictor
Though it's certainly ironic that someone flung a grenade at him in a country which was recently "liberated" with Washington's open support. Well, at least he still has...uh...Poland.

I find it much more ironic to see Bush praising people for removing a president who oly got in due to vote-rigging.

You'd think he'd be against that sort of thing.