[ShadowWolf_IH]

It's because we are kittens practicing to be cats.  We get distracted and before you know it, our own mods are very far behind and there doesn't seem to be much hope of catching up.  The task of getting 25 missions built is a daunting one, most people are willing to give up after 5 or 6.  I just came back a few months ago after nearly a year away from hlp.  Slipped right back into my role here too.  Also, with so many of the big campaigns taking so long to build, we end up with nothing to compare to.  We all want our campaigns to be the best, but sometimes we forget reality, and reality is....our people are stretched way too thin as it is.  I used to be, but I am now only working on two projects, and consulting a third.

My advice is simple.......edit some existing models instead of going for a whole new fleet.  While not as impresive, it certainly allows things to work in your favor, and with some table editting, you can make the model "yours".  

Once you make a plan, stick with it.  Some of the best things i have played are 9 and 10 mission campaigns.  Mini mods rock.   Don't make it too complicated to build.  I am actually planning a series of mini mods using existing  ships.  They may not be vanilla fs2, but they already exist.  While doing this, i will be continuing with Mercenaries.  The first instalment of Combat Federation.  

I think another thing we are doing wrong is not supporting one another's endeavors.  I don't mean working for each other constantly, i mean just saying hey, here's a better way to do that.  or maybe just a quick note in forums that we are interested in.  I really do beleive that if you know people care about your product, it keeps you motivated on building it.  People constantly harping for MT news is what keeps me going there.  

Flame wars are a constant thing, and while they don't directly affect a mod or a campaign, there are a few people who i just won't work with, and i therefore can't work on a campaign with them.  I've been lucky so far, Casualties of War, 158th, BWO, MT, and now consulting on FSU.  My own projects i can't say anything about, but i can say that i thoroughly enjoy all of the staff members that i have worked with, and currently work with.  It's good to be back in HLP.

Until you have an established mod, one that is strong in progress, don't expect too much.  Design a short camapign that doesn't need new ships.  Steak and cake, steak being the missions, and the ships being the cake.  make a good campaign, turn it into a mod IF YOU CAN.

That's all.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
Thing is, I'm split between three things:

a)  SCP work

b) TVWP work

c) Real Life + Games

I'm usually busy with at least one of these factors leaving practically no time to progress on the other two.

Same here.

[Knight Templar]

Originally posted by Anaz
I think you should add "easily distracted" to that list

I know it's true for me (and most of the other people I work with...*cough*KT*cough*) that I tend to go all-out when I get a new game/thing. I suffer from the "ooh-shiney thing" tendancy quite a lot...

What the **** are you looking at. I do more work than you.

err.. you have to keep in mind that, the point that whatever you are doing as a staffer stops being fun or enjoyable,  and becomes a chore, you're already doomed. People who don't enjoy doing what they do, will ultimately see it as a chore and turn to something that they enjoy instead, such as other games, playing games, etc.

I know this because it's happened to me a few times, and it sucks. The whole idea of creating a story/timeline/short campaign, planning it out and even making a universe to go with it is very romantic to do, even think about it. But if you can't handle the small day to day things such as writing, or tabling your models, or doing the manual labour, there's going to be some trouble no doubt, and I think that's a big turn off for campaign staffers. As a project leader, you'll most likely always come back to your project until you realise you can't get it done, but as a staffer, if you get bored, there's really nothing from keeping you from just not doing it other than any emotional attachment you might have to the leader or the idea. And without help, campaigns tend to die.  

So yeah, that's my two cents.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

I agree KT.  Once you see your own mod as a chore it's over with.  A mod is a lot of hard work, and for the large amount of time you spend on it, you never once hear thank you.  although you may get lucky and hear....you rock, or this is progressing faster than i thought it would, or something like that.  

It's a good thing I can quit fredding for a bit soon, because i've been breathing fred.  Burnout is a bad thing, hell i even downloaded some tutorials tonight, and got some other things accomplished.  some people can pace themselves while they fred, i can't, i am one of those freaks of nature who becomes a dog with a bone.  Luckily i am going to fight in a tournament this weekend (wish me luck), so it may help break it up enough for me to hit it hard when i get back.  But basically i think the main point you brought up was just burnout.  When modding isn't fun anymore, i really beleive it's because we are burnt out.  When i get done fredding for MT I want to learn interface and shield ani's, it'll give me something to contribute that isn't fredding.  I think that's another thing, how many guys are like me, and only have one skill?  i mean yeah i can do vasudan voices, but any talking monkey with goldwave can do them.  i can't model, or texture, or do cb ani's or any of the really cool stuff.  All i can do is build missions.  How many guys can only model?  How burnt out do you think people can get just doing one thing over and over on something that we do because it's supposed to be fun?  

Burnout happens, mods die.  maybe what we should be asking ourselves is....how can we keep each other from getting burnt out?

[Janos]

I contribute nothing, but don't I whine a lot!

Really, the campaigns are what FS people focus on. And all campaigns that are "on the developement stage" are some overambiguos 105967 missions long deathtraps.

Inferno springs to mind as practically the only big MOD that has actually released something more than a puny demo back in June 2002.

And no one ever updates their web sites. You'd think there could be *gasp* people who don't frequent HLP, but read of the misc stuff somewhere else?
"Blasphemy, everyone interested can read our forum, though all messages will be on internal. BTW, the address for the forum is http://fourtythousanddeadgoldfishinacunnilingussession149015.ANGELFIRE.com/haig/igoa/forum/workingforum, or something." This is, at least, what it may look like to a non-HLPer.

end whine

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Janos
I contribute nothing, but don't I whine a lot!

Really, the campaigns are what FS people focus on. And all campaigns that are "on the developement stage" are some overambiguos 105967 missions long deathtraps.

Inferno springs to mind as practically the only big MOD that has actually released something more than a puny demo back in June 2002.

And no one ever updates their web sites. You'd think there could be *gasp* people who don't frequent HLP, but read of the misc stuff somewhere else?
"Blasphemy, everyone interested can read our forum, though all messages will be on internal. BTW, the address for the forum is http://fourtythousanddeadgoldfishinacunnilingussession149015.ANGELFIRE.com/haig/igoa/forum/workingforum, or something." This is, at least, what it may look like to a non-HLPer.

end whine

Problem is that updating websites takes time.... time that can be used for 'useful' work.

[Setekh]

A very telling write-up, BW. I think you've got the reasons down pat there - now we need to do something about it. Or will the status quo be enough, if we sustain it long enough?

Maybe we should force people working on projects to not post, but instead devote that time to modding.

[aldo_14]

At the end of the day, there's not enough people to support the amount of camapigns hosted here, let alone the ones dotted about the interweb.  I'd suggest just forcing those hosted here to turn in work (on their internals) regularly, to be sure they were actually using the space.  That might be the boot up the arse required, I'm not sure.

What I do know, is that - personally - if I took up a project I wouldn't publicise it until 80 or 90% of the key work was done.  I've learnt from bitter experience that all the lofty ambitions and enthusiasm in the world boil down to not much when the work is excessive.

[KARMA]

website? what's that??

btw for what I can say the problem is simple, the guys who can work on textures, models and uvmaps at the same time with an high quality level are extremely few here, as in many other communities. But even if you look at any of these 3 steps individually, incluing modelling and expecially texturing, you'll hardly put together a lot of people, and therefore it'll be monstrousily difficult with *many* projects opened at the same time to put together a staff capable of actually creating new artwork with an almost regular and frequent release rate.
There aren't enough people capable of eventually *do* things, and the situation is even worse if we look for people capable of *do* things *for* fs2.
And there aren't many people willing to learn too, you don't have to be a genius to learn how to make a model for the game and convert it, but it require time, and even if you don't have good artistic skill, you could be at least EXTREMELY useful to those who have skills by speeding up the development in many situations (lower lods/debris, hierachy, conversion, maybe turretts...), making experience and wating to be good enough to work alone.
But I can understand that it's long and boring, very long and very boring.
Also, we seem to don't be able to attract many external artists. This is because FSO isn't very well known, the attractiveness of a FS2 camp for whoever outside the community is low, there aren't many projects which could attract new ppl, and they never get enough attention from the community (except TBP) to really take off.
That's funny because it seem that you can't attract new people if you make only fs2 camps, you can't attract enough help from the community if you don't make fs2 camps..... there's something wrong here...
Talking about the SW conv, I'd like to get more people capable of *do* things with enough time and really willing to, instead of getting dozens and dozens of people with the 95% disappearing after a couple of days.
Hell, we've never been able to get even A SINGLE *@#§§:ò TESTER who really tested stuff untile acqueous shadow joined the team!!
in conclusion, my opinion is that there are too projects open at the same time compared to the diffusion level of the skills into the community, and compared to the real wish to contribute at any level of any projects

[aldo_14]

One thing just struck me.... unrealistic as it may be, it'd be nice to have a community effort to develop new interface art.  Basically, so we would no longer have to reuse any of the original V artwork, which would mean we could freely (for free) distribute campaigns and whatnot without  the copyright issues that prevent us giving away copies of FS2.  Granted, and campaign under this strategy would have to use completely unique stuff, but it'd still be advantageous for the TCs such as Star Wars & WC (plus the other stuff like Robotech, Invader Zim, etc which I'm not too clear on).

[Lightspeed]

We use practically everything based on V's work.

As for any campaings, they can decide if they want to take the extra work, or not. It would make sense for some, but not at all for others.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lightspeed
We use practically everything based on V's work.

As for any campaings, they can decide if they want to take the extra work, or not. It would make sense for some, but not at all for others.

Yep, but everything else is relatively easy to replace.  Interface is almost certainly the hardest thing to redo - which is why i reckon a community-wide effort would be worthwhile.

[Black Wolf]

I've tried, got a basic setup done for the SW Mod - it's not really all that difficult, but I'd really, really like to see the SCP people simplify the process first. There are literally hundreds of images in there that are identical (or very, very similar - difference in ths single digits of pixels) , and hundreds that differ only in their brightness.

[ShadowPuppet]

Fascinating little study on the 'life cycle of a Mod'

Speaking personally, I find that there is a lot of truth in the summary BlackWolf started this off with. I know I can certainly see a lot of stuff in there that I can relate to! Not just here... but in a LOT of other mod groups for osther sims.

There are ALWAYS more modellers than good texture artists. Seems to be a rule of life

Personally, I find model building easy. I can turn out a reasonably nice model in a day. Easy. Then, it probably takes another 2 days to get it mapped and to work up a presentable texture. Not a good one, mind, coz I am NOT an artist! I am getting better...but having seen a REAL texture artist work on a WW1 Bi-plane model I made, I know I lack the patience. He spent 3 days building a 7 or 8 layer map to do JUST THE PROP! It looked amazing...

Anyway...Then you come to the conversion thing. Having had a few problems in this respect, I know how little real knowledge there is out there to support people through difficulties. This is, after all, not a big community in terms of 'active' modders. NOTHING likethe scale of Counterstrike or UT2004 etc. I have had some trouble ...got some help form some very helpful people...and some slaps in the face from less helpful people. Wonder how many pack up the job at this point.

Then....there is the 'FRED' thing. How many good mission builders are there? Making missions is so simple. Any fool can do it. Making them interesting...now, thats a whole different ballgame! Mine seem to invovle spawning a bunch of ships that shoot at each other until one side is dead. Thats not going to hold peoples attention! To build good missions takes time, and lots of boring repetitious re-runs until everything happens as you want it...when you want it.

So, what can we, as a community , do about this?

1) New blood.
Not much about, and not much that can be done about it. Just make DAMN sure none gets spilt....

2) Skills.
Well...I can model, UV map, and do a few odds and ends. What mods need that skill? I wonder how many other people could offer small time help on bigger mods. Then ther eare teh ' I want to learn' guys. I have taught people to model before...can do it again. Anyone else willing to try? How about getting together lists of tutorials on the web that ACTUALLY HELP! When I was learning Lightwave, I had the manual, and lots of tutorials. About 5% were useful for the kind of mdoelling I wanted to do. A list of these would be useful, rather than ' go find a tutorial' you could direct them to a page full of links that focus on lower poly mesh modelling.

3) Documentation.
We need more tutorials, help docs and up to date reference material. I found a lot of confusing material when I was trying to learn the basics, and next to nothing on the more advanced stuff. Hierarchy was confusing, still is. Stopped using Autogen features on PCS because I couldn't predict the results.... Nowhere is there a complete tutorial on buildng a ship from start to finish. IPA's tutorial comes closest, but that doesn't cover the table files and was done a while ago.

Anyway....since this is clearly starting to ramble I will cut it short!

Whatever, the mod scene is done in peoples spare time, and that is always a scarce resource. We do it for free, and because we want to. That can be 'subject to change without notice'

We can probably help things along though, by making the knowledge more accessable, encouraging people to have a go at mods, and keeping the documents we do have as up to date as possible.

Couple of additional thoughts....

Why not have a 'mini-mod' competition. A contest for first-timers, just a few ships, a couple of missions. Something that could be finished.

Why not set up a 'rookie' section in the forum for help and advice? Somewhere that people could freely ask the 'stoopid' question without fear of being told to ' go search the forum' or 'RTFM'

Just some ideas

[KARMA]

Originally posted by ShadowPuppet

Then, it probably takes another 2 days to get it mapped and to work up a presentable texture. Not a good one, mind, coz I am NOT an artist! I am getting better...but having seen a REAL texture artist work on a WW1 Bi-plane model I made, I know I lack the patience. He spent 3 days building a 7 or 8 layer map to do JUST THE PROP! It looked amazing...

well, I spend *months* into textures with dozens and dozens of layers:drevil: texturing is long, more than difficult.....that's the prob

How about getting together lists of tutorials on the web that ACTUALLY HELP
We need more tutorials, help docs and up to date reference material. I found a lot of confusing material when I was trying to learn the basics, and next to nothing on the more advanced stuff. Hierarchy was confusing, still is. Stopped using Autogen features on PCS because I couldn't predict the results.... Nowhere is there a complete tutorial on buildng a ship from start to finish. IPA's tutorial comes closest, but that doesn't cover the table files and was done a while ago.
[/b]

yeah, a more organized documentation/tutorial section would help, as it is something we're missing. IPandrews' is the closer but a lot of new stuff is missing now, and kara's faq is helpful but is more a newbie solution rather than mm an FS oracle, I mean that it could be excellent as a basic structure, but then it'd require some deeper tutorials, like a step to step FS modelling guide

[Flipside]

I'd say the most difficult part is that, not only do old models do nothing but get older, but it's actually quite hard work to keep up with all the new technology developments.
It's a pity that more experienced Modders can't take on a Padawan really

[karajorma]

Originally posted by ShadowPuppet
Anyway...Then you come to the conversion thing. Having had a few problems in this respect, I know how little real knowledge there is out there to support people through difficulties. This is, after all, not a big community in terms of 'active' modders. NOTHING likethe scale of Counterstrike or UT2004 etc. I have had some trouble ...got some help form some very helpful people...and some slaps in the face from less helpful people. Wonder how many pack up the job at this point.

I'd imagine quite a few. I came pretty close to giving up modelling when I first tried to do turrets. The eventual result was that as soon as I figured out how to do it I put up my turretting tutorial so no one else would ever have the problems I had.

Originally posted by ShadowPuppet
Then....there is the 'FRED' thing. How many good mission builders are there? Making missions is so simple. Any fool can do it. Making them interesting...now, thats a whole different ballgame! Mine seem to invovle spawning a bunch of ships that shoot at each other until one side is dead. Thats not going to hold peoples attention! To build good missions takes time, and lots of boring repetitious re-runs until everything happens as you want it...when you want it.  

There are probably a few more FREDders than people realise. FREDding is the loneliest task in the field. FREDders get no recognition at all until the campaign (or at least a demo) is released.  If I asked you who were the modellers on the Inferno team you could probably guess a few names cause you see their mods in this forum. Ask you for the FREDders and you'd probably have to think harder if you even managed to guess any. (I'd have said MG instead of Inferno but we're so secretive you'd probably have a hard time naming either )

That said FREDders who are willing to work hard on FRED and FRED alone are very rare. One reason is the one I stated above. Everyone remembers a good modeller. How many good FREDders can you name? I've noticed this with the MG team. Almost all our FREDders do something else now. Even the ones who were just FREDders when they joined.

Originally posted by ShadowPuppet
Well...I can model, UV map, and do a few odds and ends. What mods need that skill?

MG is crying out for a UV mapper. In fact I came here to post asking for one Don't even need one who can texture. As long as they know their way around Lith that's good enough. I doubt MG are the only ones but if you want to help us out just say so and you've got a place on the team.

Originally posted by ShadowPuppet
I wonder how many other people could offer small time help on bigger mods. Then ther eare teh ' I want to learn' guys. I have taught people to model before...can do it again. Anyone else willing to try?

One of our hiring rounds MG offered to teach people to FRED in return for them making us missions. No one who accepted stayed. The problem with teaching up and comers is you have to be certain that in 3-4 months they won't get bored and move on to another game. If any regular here wanted help with there FREDding they only have to post and I'm happy to help. I'll answer newbie questions quite happily but the time when I'd take a newbie under my wing and teach them how to FRED is pretty much gone. A pity but I just can't afford the time unless I'm certain that MG is going to profit from it.

Originally posted by ShadowPuppet
How about getting together lists of tutorials on the web that ACTUALLY HELP! When I was learning Lightwave, I had the manual, and lots of tutorials. About 5% were useful for the kind of mdoelling I wanted to do. A list of these would be useful, rather than ' go find a tutorial' you could direct them to a page full of links that focus on lower poly mesh modelling.

I tried to do that with my FAQ Everything in the modding section is relavant (or at least was back when I compiled it. The problem is that it's quite hard to teach someone how to make ships. I do agree that it would be nice to see people helping out a little more with advice/offering to look at problem missions/models.

Originally posted by ShadowPuppet
3) Documentation.
We need more tutorials, help docs and up to date reference material. I found a lot of confusing material when I was trying to learn the basics, and next to nothing on the more advanced stuff. Hierarchy was confusing, still is. Stopped using Autogen features on PCS because I couldn't predict the results.... Nowhere is there a complete tutorial on buildng a ship from start to finish. IPA's tutorial comes closest, but that doesn't cover the table files and was done a while ago.

You might be surprised how much work is actually involved in writing a tutorial. Having written one myself I know why we don't see more.

Originally posted by ShadowPuppet
Why not set up a 'rookie' section in the forum for help and advice? Somewhere that people could freely ask the 'stoopid' question without fear of being told to ' go search the forum' or 'RTFM'

I don't think we really need a rookie section. Very little gets you flamed when asking technical questions these days.