[Zeronet]

Ants do have a culture, they all work together for the greater good.

[mikhael]

 

Originally posted by Zeronet:
Ants do have a culture, they all work together for the greater good.

So do wolf packs. That's not culture. Culture allows for individuals that can ignore the common good for ideals and goals that may run contrary to the needs of the herd.

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--Mik
http://www.404error.com

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by mikhael:
I will preface by saying I do not mean to offend.

By including omniscient, omnipotent powers in your stance, you render the discussion moot. There's no logical divide between ant and man except the whim of some superbeing. Pass.

I guess what makes the distinction between sentient races (human, vasudan, shivan, Ancients) and the nonsentient (ants, bees) is the ability to change their basic responses based on things that are not hard coded or forced by environment. Ants don't build things. They don't create or innovate new ideas, tools or methods. They don't build rafts to take them across oceans or ships to cross the stars. They don't have aesthetics response. They don't have 'culture' or 'society'. Sentient races do all of those things (or work toward them). They have the ability to create things that are not directly related to survival and to appreciate those things in a way that is seperate from their immediate concerns.

Venom, you point out that humanity specializes just like ants. I point out that they do, but they don't have too. A soldier can leave the army and become a farmer. A computer programmer can become an artist. A politician can become an sailor. A soldier ant will live and die a soldier, and will never go out to cut leaves. The queen will always be the queen. She can't just give it all up and become a regular ant. We specialize by choice, not by necessity.

Ants are awesome, but they aren't sentient and do not have culture.

no offense taken, but you're wrong:
Ants create and uses tools: it has been witnessed ants trying to push leaves in water in order to cross a waterpoint. They grow other insects for their own use, like cattle. And they build their hives   and unlike spider webs, all the hives are differents, they will use usefull stuff if they find it (a dead tree for exemple). And warriors d not live only for war: ants aren't always at war after all   warriors can do drone stuff too, and they carry stuff just like regular ants when they have nothing else to do (they will cut leaves   ).

[mikhael]

You attack my every point, sir, and well.

I will still maintain, however, that this discussion of ants does not give them culture, just structure. They are still not sentient, and thus do not qualify for the discussion.  



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--Mik
http://www.404error.com

[an0n]

 

They don't build rafts to take them across oceans or ships to cross the stars

Fire ants. On their travels, if they encounter a river or water barrier the entire colony forms an immense (and deadly might I add) raft that floats across the water. They kinda sting and mame anything they come in contact with and at present are probably the single greatest natural threat to human habitation in parts of the world.

Also, ants come in many species that are adapted to their regions eg Meat ants in Australia strip dead animal carcasses, the fire ants form rafts because water is a frequent problem. This could be compared to traits in humans such as black skin to survive more sun and the inability of many arid countrys inhabitants to swim.

 To summarise: HA! They don't need to build no stinkin' boats coz any that need to cross water can naturally swim/float.

[an0n]

 

or ships to cross the stars

Neither do humans.

[mikhael]

 

Originally posted by an0n:
Fire ants. On their travels, if they encounter a river or water barrier the entire colony forms an immense (and deadly might I add) raft that floats across the water. They kinda sting and mame anything they come in contact with and at present are probably the single greatest natural threat to human habitation in parts of the world.

Also, ants come in many species that are adapted to their regions eg Meat ants in Australia strip dead animal carcasses, the fire ants form rafts because water is a frequent problem. This could be compared to traits in humans such as black skin to survive more sun and the inability of many arid countrys inhabitants to swim.

 To summarise: HA! They don't need to build no stinkin' boats coz any that need to cross water can naturally swim/float.

In what way does that qualify them as having culture? Beetles come in all shapes and sizes and perform all sorts of tasks and activities too. They just do it more or less in a solitary manner. They aren't sentient and neither are ants. There's no culture involved, just instinct.


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--Mik
http://www.404error.com

[Carl]

ahem, Vasudan holidays?

[mikhael]

 

Originally posted by an0n:
Neither do humans.

We're discussing Vasudan holidays in a notional future in which man has done precisely that. And in which ants and bees still have not. Humans have holidays, so must Vasudans--and Shivans.

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--Mik
http://www.404error.com

[Nico]

 

Originally posted by mikhael:
In what way does that qualify them as having culture? Beetles come in all shapes and sizes and perform all sorts of tasks and activities too. They just do it more or less in a solitary manner. They aren't sentient and neither are ants. There's no culture involved, just instinct.

Well, my best answer here is their communication system, even more devolpped than us: it's faster and more acurrate. And if normal ants lacks that, sexued individuals have very developed abstract feelings. They even have what scientits calls total communication, they put their antennas together and, basically, the memories and thoughts of the other ant will be available to the first one just like it was her owns. And ants can do TC in groups: imagine a kind of telepathic chat in a room, between a dozen of people, you could remember what your neighbour did 5 years ago for exemple.

And instinct is not the only way of behaving fot ants. From the little I know, apart from humans, there's only two species in the world that could find the way to open a plastic bottle: octopus and ants. Apes have to be educated to find how to do that. An ant put with some food in a bottle (small enough for her of course) was able to find how to open it in 32 days... Instincts won't teach you that.
Anyway, you're right, I should stop talking about ants, but they fscinate me...

[Shrike]

Ok, this is off to HL.... there's not much FS content here.