[aldo_14]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4654632.stm

Of course, this is a complete coincidence and nothing to do with any sort of anti Russian sentiments there.

[BlackDove]

Accidents are so accidental.

[Rictor]

See, I think this is accidental, consider Chechnya is now not much more than a Russian protectorate, I don't see why they would intentionally cut off the power. Or maybe not, who knows, expecially with a similar incident in Georgia. Could be the cold, could be the Russians, could be the Chechens.

[aldo_14]

Perhaps it's actually the CIA and Mossad conducting a secret operation to destabilise Russian fuel monopolies and thus convince them to co-operate against Iran by suspending support for nuclear power activities there!!!!111

[Rictor]

Honestly, I had considered it. The West is trying curb Russian influence in a big way right now, but Putin is no sucker.

But as for Iran, it's the other way around. I actually read an artcle this morning where Bush praised the Russian plan to enrich Iranian uranium on Russian soil. I think he actually said something along the lines of "Iran has a right to have a peaceful nuclear program", which left me feeling a bit shocked and frightened, because Bush's jingosim has been the one constant in these changing times, something to set your clock by, and now I don't know what to think.

[aldo_14]

Honestly, I had considered it. The West is trying curb Russian influence in a big way right now, but Putin is no sucker.

But as for Iran, it's the other way around. I actually read an artcle this morning where Bush praised the Russian plan to enrich Iranian uranium on Russian soil. I think he actually said something along the lines of "Iran has a right to have a peaceful nuclear program", which left me feeling a bit shocked and frightened, because Bush's jingosim has been the one constant in these changing times, something to set your clock by, and now I don't know what to think.

Yeah, but inside he was saying 'Iran can never have a peaceful nuclear program'.

[achtung]

Honestly, I had considered it. The West is trying curb Russian influence in a big way right now, but Putin is no sucker.

But as for Iran, it's the other way around. I actually read an artcle this morning where Bush praised the Russian plan to enrich Iranian uranium on Russian soil. I think he actually said something along the lines of "Iran has a right to have a peaceful nuclear program", which left me feeling a bit shocked and frightened, because Bush's jingosim has been the one constant in these changing times, something to set your clock by, and now I don't know what to think.

Yeah, but inside he was saying 'Iran can never have a peaceful nuclear program'.

Which I'd say is the truth.

To be honest, I'd blame the extreme cold for the gas problems.

[BlackDove]

Honestly, I had considered it. The West is trying curb Russian influence in a big way right now, but Putin is no sucker.

You do realise the United States of America owns Russia, right?

[Rictor]

Erm, you're about decade off the mark. The people who used to own Russia on America's behalf are either in Siberia or in exile. Unless you meant owns and in 0wnz, in which case, no, they still don't.

[BlackDove]

No I mean, "owns" as in, bought and paid for. Russia is a western country today.

[StratComm]

Except that it is totally run by the mob.  Russia is slipping back into authoritarianism because the choice between a corrupt government and the absense of one is pretty much equivalent.

[BlackDove]

Yes, and the people who run the United States are all in the League of Extraordinary Gentleman.

Really, if you're going to do buisness, who're you going to do it with?

Meh, I'll stop here.

[Rictor]

No, Russia is "slipping back" into nationalism because they value their sovereignty, just like everyone else. And they don't take kindly to having their country run by foreign investors and beurocrats, or to being bled dry. It's what everyone would do, except most countries don't have the clout to pull it off. The mob/oligarchy is no longer in charge on a national level. They either got kicked out or incorporated into the existing power structure. Which means, in effect, that corruption still serves to fill the coffers of the few, but at least those few have a vested interest in having a strong, prosperous Russia. read this.

[Janos]

Yes, and the people who run the United States are all in the League of Extraordinary Gentleman.

Really, if you're going to do buisness, who're you going to do it with?

Meh, I'll stop here.

Russia is corrupt. It lacks freedom of speech and freedom of press. Political structure is very authoritarian, with opponents to those in charge being outlawed or otherwise ousted on a frequent basis. The **** that goes down in Chechnya absolutely pales the kindergarden BS US is pulling off in Iraq. Russia does all kind of nasty **** to countries that don't quite agree with them on some issues (for example suddenly halting all border traffic and creating traffic jams or accidentally flying military jets in their airspace or something).
US and Russia are two different things. We were not talking about USA. We were talking about Russia[/i]. NOT USA.


The false equivalence argument pisses me off to no end.
X does something stupid
Y criticizes X
however Y, Z, M or whoever has done something now or in the past
therefore criticizing X without criticizing X/Z/M/whatever is dishonest or wrong

[Rictor]

Yes, Russia is corrupt. Yes, it lacks (to a degree) freedom of speech, but then again so do many, perhaps even most countries.  The world is not Switzerland: this kind of **** is the norm. But I can't agree with the people who see Putin et al as Stalin all over again, and draw a simplistic view with the great, enlightened, progressive free-market path versus the old, evil ways of authoritarianism. There's no use pretending Moscow is Pyongyang. It's not that simple. StratComm had it right: the choice was (around the end of the 90s) between a potentially bad government and no government, and I think the right choice was made. But then again, it's not like Russia has a proud tradition of democracy: they just fell back into familiar patterns

As for Chechnya, yes it sucks for them. When or if Russia pulls out, Chechnya as a nation will have ceased to exist and it's population will have been decimated. It already is. Iraq is nothing compared to Chechnya, that much is clear. But again, half the world is engaged is some sort of civil war, insurgency or conflict. It's not exactly a unique situation.

Specifically regarding the recent gas row with Ukraine, I  think it was perfectly reasonable to expect a independent nation to pay market price for gas. If Ukraine wants to go it's own way (or rather, not it's own way but the EU way, but whatever) that;s fine. But don't expect the subsidies to continue. Every other European nation paid a certain price, and Ukraine was paying five times less.

[karajorma]

Specifically regarding the recent gas row with Ukraine, I  think it was perfectly reasonable to expect a independent nation to pay market price for gas. If Ukraine wants to go it's own way (or rather, not it's own way but the EU way, but whatever) that;s fine. But don't expect the subsidies to continue. Every other European nation paid a certain price, and Ukraine was paying five times less.

Especially when you consider that Ukraine was then selling the gas on to the west at a profit. There is absolutely no free market reason why Russia should subsidise another country to then act as a direct competitor.