[Mefustae]

ok, we are sticking by OUR standards, few Americans consiter what happens in gitmo to be torture, when it is described to them.

Then why are you complaining about torture of your own countrymen? You're sticking to your standards in not-really-but-sort-of torturing people, and Iraqi insurgents are sticking to their standards in blatantly torturing people. Everybody wins with an attitude like that!

[Shade]

Well, by current american standards, any US civilians in the Iraqi war zone could of course rightfully be considered illegal combatants by the enemy, and as such are devoid of any human rights or protections under the geneva conventions. So yes, if you stick by the current US standards and not the accepted international standards, the insurgents are playing entirely by the book...

Now, I don't hold to that. Of course what happens there is wrong. But so is what happens at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo - Not wrong on the same level (well, some Abu Ghraib instances have been), not at all, but wrong still.

[Bobboau]

Then why are you complaining about torture of your own countrymen? You're sticking to your standards in not-really-but-sort-of torturing people, and Iraqi insurgents are sticking to their standards in blatantly torturing people. Everybody wins with an attitude like that!

ummm... what? were have I ONCE complained about the incedent here, have I not explained enough times that, I don't care about this persay, I find this situation to be well within the expectations of a war, how many more times are you going to just ignore what I say and assume I'm parroting Bush because the sounds I make don't exactly match up with yours?

I'm not pissed about the guys getting tortured, I'm pissed that people such as your self consiter sleep depravation, and loud noises to be on par with it because it's politicaly/ideologicaly convenient.

[Bobboau]

Well, by current american standards, any US civilians in the Iraqi war zone could of course rightfully be considered illegal combatants by the enemy if they were found in a combat zone preferably with a weapon, or if someone that the insergents trusted told them said US civilian was actively involved with military opperations against them, but granted, that could easly make any US citizen a valid target, so... I'll accept that premis , and as such are devoid of any human rights or protections under the geneva conventions. So yes, if you stick by the current US standards and not the accepted international standards, the insurgents are playing entirely by the book...well ok then, nice to see we see these things eye to eye, so long as we get to play by the same book, I'm fine

Now, I don't hold to that. ah, damn! Of course what happens there is wrong. But so is what happens at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo - Not wrong on the same level (well, some Abu Ghraib instances have been), not at all, but wrong still.
now, here is the important part, who has gotten more international flak? the US or the insurgency? you have just said that what we do, while wrong, is not on the same level of wrong as the things the insurgency does (some insedents have aproched it, but the mean atrosity average is lower) so why do we get grilled for three years for one incedent, and when they do it, it's rarely even back of the paper news?

[Mefustae]

ummm... what? were have I ONCE complained about the incedent here, have I not explained enough times that, I don't care about this persay, I find this situation to be well within the expectations of a war, how many more times are you going to just ignore what I say and assume I'm parroting Bush because the sounds I make don't exactly match up with yours?

I'm not pissed about the guys getting tortured, I'm pissed that people such as your self consiter sleep depravation, and loud noises to be on par with it because it's politicaly/ideologicaly convenient.

My apologies, I miscontrued the motive behind your creation of the thread. Anyway, I still think you underestimate the effect good psychological torture can have on an individual. The body will heal with time, but the mind is a far more delicate instrument.

now, here is the important part, who has gotten more international flak? the US or the insurgency? you have just said that what we do, while wrong, is not on the same level of wrong as the things the insurgency does (some insedents have aproched it, but the mean atrosity average is lower) so why do we get grilled for three years for one incedent, and when they do it, it's rarely even back of the paper news?

You may not preach to be better than the average dictatorship, but your leaders certainly do. So, you'll have to forgive some of us when we get a little ticked at your leaders proclaiming the US as a beacon of hope, liberty and freedom, and proceed to smack a POW before they've even finished talking. The insurgency may be worse in some areas, but they don't seriously expect people to believe otherwise.

[vyper]

BECAUSE WE EXPECT THEM TO! Jesus Christ is it so hard for you to understand? We know they're ****ing nutters! We expect better from people who are supposed to be on our (justice, freedom, democracy, et al) side!

[Turambar]

not that it affects this thread, but i saw this on the news at dinner

apparently a detatchment went to an area to search for a terrorist, they couldnt find him.  so, instead of leaving and saying they didnt find him, they murdered some random 53 year old man and planted an ak47 and a shovel on his corpse.

the defenders of freedom and democracy.

[vyper]

Erm, link or credible proof?

[Bobboau]

yeah, I heard that too, aparently they are being put on trial for murder, and yes, the death penalty is on the table for them, if they did it sounds like they deserve it... yes... interesting...

I was actualy going to post a thread about that to, there was another murder case involveing a US solder and a(n) Iraqi(s).

so anyway back to the tread, what was that you were saying about expecting better from us?

[Turambar]

yeah, i expect better from us.

go idealism and morals!

[Deepblue]

I like the fact that people are decrying the USMC despite the fact they are actually charging the guys.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Mefustae]

I like the fact that people are decrying the USMC despite the fact they are actually charging the guys.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

So... you're saying they shouldn't cop any flak for letting it happen in the first place?!

[Shade]

Expectation is exactly the point. We don't expect a movement like the Iraq insurgency to uphold human rights, and so the fact that they don't isn't something that's being brought up every 2 days in the papers. Guess what though - We don't deal with them either. We don't trade with them, we don't talk to them, we don't cooperate with them, and we throw them in prison whenever they're identified or, if they're armed, kill them.

If we were to expect the US to behave like they do, we would have to also start throwing every US citizen in jail, stop all relations, impose a complete trade embargo, bomb every US base in and around Europe and so forth. That's what we would morally have to do if it comes to the point where we expect the US to behave like the insurgents do. So I think the fact that we expect much higher standards from the US is a good thing... don't you? If you eventually end up no better than the insurgents, you basically forfeit everything.

[Nuclear1]

I like the fact that people are decrying the USMC despite the fact they are actually charging the guys.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

So... you're saying they shouldn't cop any flak for letting it happen in the first place?!

Oh, come on now. You're not actually going to blame an entire military branch for not countering something that just happens like this, are you? I'm not saying the Marines shouldn't be put on trial and investigated, but why decry an entire division just because of what a few people do?

You can't just simply say that the USMC expected something like this to happen and just let them go off and do it. Thousands of raids have been carried out with Marines investigating, doing their job, and coming home, and in the event that something doesn't turn out right, none of them until now have been reported to do something like this.

[Mefustae]

I simply understood DB's post to mean 'they charged the soldiers, so drop it', which is dumb. I didn't say the entire 'Core should be chastised, nor did I say they should have the entire division investigated undersuspicion of genocide. Stop twisting my words.

Anyway, why shouldn't they have expected it? They're conducting an occupation in a decidedly hostile place where guerellas could be anywhere and anyone, and death could come at any moment. Hell, i'd be damned worried if they had thought something like this wouldn't happen. It's happened before, in other countries, other wars, and other times, why should this country, war and time be any different?

IMO, they did see something like this coming, as evidenced by that 'empathy' or 'sensitivity' training or whatever it was that was announced for US Armed Forces abroad a few months ago. The fact alone that they're going to waste money on crap like that is evidence that they expected it.

[aldo_14]

I'm sorry you consider the basic rules of war and the conventions upon human rights (already being bent and broken anyways) as tying your hands behind your back. 

no, no, you misunderstand, it's that fact that we follow the rules and the people we fight don't even pretend to that I am refering to. if captured Americans were given the same level of treatment we show our captives, like red cross visits, or culturaly sensitive meals, then I wouldn't find the rules you are talking about the least bit of a burden. but that isn't the way things are, is it?

The US started this war under the banner of bringing freedom and democracy - do you honestly expect people to just stand by whilst crimes are committed under that banner?  I'm pretty sure you've never been forced to undergo water torture, stand upright until you piss and **** yourselfdamn near, suffered extreme sleep deprivationdoes 10 hours of sleep in a (7 day) week count?, etc, otherwise you wouldn't even be trying to defend the indefensible.  Torture in all forms is wrong, full stop.

do you honestly think, beeing forced to stand for a day or two, not being allowed to sleep for a week compares to haveing your eyes gouged out, your skin being flailed off and haveing your head sawed off? neither one of us has experienced any of these things, but I think you can clearly see that they are on totaly diferent planes of discomfort.
I know people who have endured the things you have described, I have talked with them, and they agree with me.

And that stops it being torture, does it?  Tell me, what did these people you've talked to actually go through then?  Elaborate.

Tell you what, breaking your leg isn't really as bad as killing you with a chainsaw, mind if I do that?  Or, maybe - to be fair - if you kill one person, I'll chop the legs off of ten, and then we'll be equal?

Did you even read the first post I made on this thread?  I doubt it.