[Bobboau]

Why ask which act is worse when the side-effect of both is death?no, the side effect of one of them is death the other it's the one and only goal, just because they aren't very good at it I don't think should weight into the judgement of wich side to come down on

Is the death of 700+ civillians with good intentions worse than about 100 with the worst intentions? yes

Does this even matter when innocent people are being killed for no good reason? not sure what you mean, rephase please

[aldo_14]

Well, does it really matter which is morally better when both are wrong?

[Bobboau]

yes, in a situation were both parties are wrong I feel it is important to make judgements based on wich you feel is more wrong (assumeing you can make such a determineation), after all you don't punish speeders with the same penalties as pedophiles.

[aldo_14]

yes, in a situation were both parties are wrong I feel it is important to make judgements based on wich you feel is more wrong (assumeing you can make such a determineation), after all you don't punish speeders with the same penalties as pedophiles.

Isn't it more important to stop people dying, then appoportion blame, though?

[karajorma]

yes, in a situation were both parties are wrong I feel it is important to make judgements based on wich you feel is more wrong (assumeing you can make such a determineation), after all you don't punish speeders with the same penalties as pedophiles.

But you do punish both. That's the point we're trying to get across.

[Grug]

I would of probably agreed with you guys (kara and aldo) some time ago, and still do to some extent. But I think I've come to a state where I think of myself more of a realist. In some cases diplomacy is just too idealistic to work. It's a sad fact of life. It's a sad fact of humanity.

Perhaps both sides could of put more effort into diplomacy. The same could be said for Afganistan or Iraq, or any other conflict known to man. It is far more easier to encourage and demand diplomacy from the safe side of the world (so to speak) I think than it is to be there and experiencing said things.

I can respect Israel for what they've been through, and for surviving in one of the most hostile places on the planet. (even if they may have contributed to that hostility)

You guys do have a point, if the world was a better place, they could just talk it out. But the world isn't unfortunately.
Expecting everyone to just turn around and be friends at the toss of a coin is a blindly optimistic view, and something that is probably never going to happen.

[aldo_14]

The first step to changing the world is believing you can, though.  If we just accept the ****tiest things as 'how it works', then we'll never go anywhere except downhill.  (Plus, it's not like we've not seen diplomacy work before with sectarian violence)

[karajorma]

It's not just a case of wild eyed dreaming here. I keep mentioning Northern Ireland because that was a situation that had lasted longer than the Arab-Israeli conflicts and had just as much hatred on both sides (and still has hatred on both sides for that matter) but has been resolved via diplomacy.

No one here is saying that diplomacy is a pancea that will magcally solve the problems in the Middle East but it's a step in the right direction. This is a step in the wrong direction. It won't solve anything. It merely makes the people Israel is trying to beat stronger.

What's really annoying is that Isreal have gone in and stirred up the hornets nest and now expect the rest of the world to go in and take over. Why didn't they ask for that BEFORE this all started when they could have got the Lebonese government to ask for help too? 

[Sandwich]

Isn't it more important to stop people dying, then appoportion blame, though?

That may be. However, if Israel stops all her attacks on Hezbollah targets, do you think that Hezbollah will stop firing rockets and return our kidnapped soldiers?

Conversely, if Hezbollah returns our kidnapped soldiers and stops the rocket fire, do you think that Israel would then stop attacking Hezbollah?

What's really annoying is that Isreal have gone in and stirred up the hornets nest and now expect the rest of the world to go in and take over. Why didn't they ask for that BEFORE this all started when they could have got the Lebonese government to ask for help too?

I may have missed something, since I haven't read news in the last day or so, but... is Israel now asking for an external force to come take over? Last I heard was that we vehemently opposed any sort of UN "peacekeeping" force or anything of the sort, due to their utter uselessness in the past. Have I missed some new development?

[vyper]

Apparently so given that your government was willing to accept UN forces (based on the requirement that they were NATO led) over a week ago.

[aldo_14]

Isn't it more important to stop people dying, then appoportion blame, though?

That may be. However, if Israel stops all her attacks on Hezbollah targets, do you think that Hezbollah will stop firing rockets and return our kidnapped soldiers?

Conversely, if Hezbollah returns our kidnapped soldiers and stops the rocket fire, do you think that Israel would then stop attacking Hezbollah?

And has this stopped the rocket fire? 

Has it made it less likely to reoccur in future? 

Or has it created a new recruiting call for future attacks, strengthening Hezbollahs attempts to portray itself as a resistance movement?

Honest question; once Israel decided to invade Gaza, did rocket attacks (Hezbollah or Palestinian origin) increase?  (for example, can we regard any significance in todays record barrage, and can we do so versus the vastly reduced attacks during the 48 hour suspension of IAF air-raids?)

What's really annoying is that Isreal have gone in and stirred up the hornets nest and now expect the rest of the world to go in and take over. Why didn't they ask for that BEFORE this all started when they could have got the Lebonese government to ask for help too?

I may have missed something, since I haven't read news in the last day or so, but... is Israel now asking for an external force to come take over? Last I heard was that we vehemently opposed any sort of UN "peacekeeping" force or anything of the sort, due to their utter uselessness in the past. Have I missed some new development?

Olmert has called for a NATO - i.e. ally - force I believe, but yes, peacekeeping forces.  Presumably realising how incredibly futile this war is.

[Flipside]

This sort of incident happens once a year, last year a Neo-Nazi got into a Synagogue in Russia and went on a stabbing spree, before the press tried to blame it on cxomputer games, there are always whackos about, As an aside to the current discussion, I don't think the thing is Lebanon was the reason he did this, I think it was an excuse to do it.

[SadisticSid]

Had Israel written off the loss of its soldiers and ignored the initial rocket attacks, would the situation have diminished? Or would the lack of retaliation have been an invitation for every fanatic in the area to an all-you-can-bomb bloodbath? Either way the reaction is going to be negative.

[Grug]

The first step to changing the world is believing you can, though.  If we just accept the ****tiest things as 'how it works', then we'll never go anywhere except downhill.  (Plus, it's not like we've not seen diplomacy work before with sectarian violence)

We can only hope I guess.
Perhaps because of this violence diplomatic solutions will be more strongly desired in the future.

[Ace]

Damn it, if you're going to have to be a moronic blade-wielding zealot at least attack a target like the so-called "Discovery Institute" at least take out some of your fellow bad guys while you're at it too.

[Sandwich]

Honest question; once Israel decided to invade Gaza, did rocket attacks (Hezbollah or Palestinian origin) increase?  (for example, can we regard any significance in todays record barrage, and can we do so versus the vastly reduced attacks during the 48 hour suspension of IAF air-raids?)

I honestly do not know - I've got no statistics at hand. However, the significance of anything involving Hezbollah is questionable; they are living, thinking human beings who know quite well how to manipulate situations to their advantage. *shrug*

[aldo_14]

Honest question; once Israel decided to invade Gaza, did rocket attacks (Hezbollah or Palestinian origin) increase?  (for example, can we regard any significance in todays record barrage, and can we do so versus the vastly reduced attacks during the 48 hour suspension of IAF air-raids?)

I honestly do not know - I've got no statistics at hand. However, the significance of anything involving Hezbollah is questionable; they are living, thinking human beings who know quite well how to manipulate situations to their advantage. *shrug*

Well, what i'm asking is which are they better able to manipulate; (attempted) peace or war?

[Mefustae]

Had Israel written off the loss of its soldiers and ignored the initial rocket attacks, would the situation have diminished? Or would the lack of retaliation have been an invitation for every fanatic in the area to an all-you-can-bomb bloodbath? Either way the reaction is going to be negative.

What? No! Things would have gone on a business per usual. Rocket attacks have been happening for years before now, and while the kidnapping was certainly something new, there is absolutely no reason to believe that the evil terrorist organisation of the world would come together and pile on Israel for no damned reason.

The fact of the matter is, rather than simply responding with a bit of shelling as they usually do, Israel snapped and hit back a thousand fold. An error in judgement? Perhaps. But the fact remains, this didn't start with anything particularly special, and to believe it did is folly. Had Israel sent in a small force [read: covert operation] to try and retrieve the soldiers, and taken the rocket attacks in stride as they usually do, this wouldn't be happening, and the situation would be as bad as it has been for the past umpteen years.

[Kosh]

Both sides should just hurry up and finish eachother off so the rest of us can get some peace and quiet......