[WMCoolmon]

The initial post didn't really make an argument, it just made an unfounded assertion. Apparently you expect other people to make your arguments for you.

I would argue that rating either ideology on a linear scale is going to end up being a pure fallacy. I would agree that Conservatives are more likely to promote social harmony at the cost of complete personal freedom in setting your moral compass - but that's more of a shades-of-gray thing than anything. Anytime you're with somebody else, there's going to be pressure for one side to adopt the same morals of the other. And complete chaos is no better than a completely monolithic society.

Plus, if you view liberal as 'taking chances to make things better' and conservative as 'sticking with the old ways because they're tried and true', there's not any good reason to completely remove the balance of the other side. Sure, it may be completely right to take action X - but if one side decides that for some strange reason, it just wants to keep doing action Y, it will cause a disagreement. If side X has to listen to side Y, then certain flaws may be exposed in the original action that can be corrected before they occur. If side X completely disregards Y, and action X turns out to be a failure, then they just end up being even more screwed.

[Ford Prefect]

So Physics renders Chemistry obsolete?

Different levels of abstraction and complexity. Neuroscience is about the physical workings. Psychology is about the mind. I suppose it's a bit like the difference between hardware and software; one can be understood with little to no knowledge of the other, but it helps to understand both.

But the mind doesn't exist. "Mind" is a metaphysical word we employ to describe the summation of our brain functions that we don't yet understand, in part because we can't escape the belief that the capacity to think somehow makes us more than objects. But it doesn't-- we're just stuff like everything else, and there has to be a fundamental physical reason for everything that we do. If we possessed a complete understanding of these minute physical causes, I think the mind would be revealed as the meaningless abstraction it really is.

[Kazan]

Rictor, I'd have to disagree with you there. [Referring to long post near beginning of thread] rebelliousness is not always synonymous with non-conformist, you seem to use the terms interchangably. It doesent "cut both ways", since the redneck you refer to has only acheived level 2 reasoning. He does not think for himself, his "culture" dictates his behavior. The "free-spirit" you refer to does think for himself, showed by how he deviates from other free spirits, therefore he does think for himself and can be given the honorary title of "rebellious", or in this case, level 3 moral reasoning.

not immoral - just mired in a less-advanced moral thinking mode based upon authoritarianism

Agreed, but is it nature or nurture that determines which level we achieve?

I think its nurture because it's usually a consequence of their upbringing (red states, blue states). It all depends if you were brought up to be open minded and freethinking, or closed-minded with a "do what yer told" mentality. Makes you wonder; If Kaz were born in a neocon family, would he turn out to be a neocon? 

it is mostly nurture, but some people have a naturally tendancy toward logic that cannot be supressed - i was raised christian for example

[KappaWing]

Well being raised Christian could mean an entire spectrum of different things. You could either be raised in an open minded, liberal, yet still christian environment, where christianity is more open to interpretation and education about the rest of the world is encouraged, or you could be raised in a fundamentalist brainwashing manner. When youre as young as a child, its nearly impossible to resist the brainwashing and indoctrination practices of a fundamentalist family. they **** with your mind in your formative years, and after that, youre screwed up for life, no matter what others try to do, then you pass it on to your children. The same could be applied to liberals in some circumstances, but mostly it does not apply due to the anti-indoctrination nature of liberalism. As I said before, this is why it doesent cut "both ways".

[Kazan]

my parents are liberal christians, according to christian standards of liberalism - but christian upbringing is still brainwashing.

[edit]
i had crossposted this on another forum where my fiancee posts - this was her response

I think a large part of the problem is who you meet and how you classify them.

Our current "leaders" such as Bush, Cheney, Falwell, Robertson, etc are most likely stuck in level II or under, as as many people who veiw the world in black/white (Parsnips is a good example of this.) Now, its reasonable to assume that the perception of a group will be largely affected by those who you see/hear most often, especially if what they are saying/doing is so egregious that it sticks out in your mind. Therefore the "conservatives" (I distinguish between old-conservatives of yesteryear and current conservatives) may come across as very much lacking in moral maturity, just as feminists (for someone who doesnt think too highly of feminism to start with) will most likely have their opinion affected by the nutzoid lesbian-seperatists and the like.

However, it is most likely impossible to really classify a group, especially a large one, into a moral-maturity group unless perhaps its an age group or a group that has been raised almost exactly the same (all catholic-school students from the midwest raised in a 2-parent conservative household) and even that might be iffy. Even to say "most" I think is misleading since you may be talking about millions of people.

Meanwhile, many of the higher-moral-maturity people may also stay very quiet, especially in our current atmosphere of childish poo-slinging with very little of traditional politics (as the founding fathers envisioned it) going on. I know I've lost my love of politics and even changed my career orientation because I decided I couldnt stand to work with politicians like those in office now. I'm not saying I'm level 3 morality, just that many moderates are staying quiet out of frustation and disgust.

I will agree that our current conservative leaders are probably in Level II though. It would be interesting to see a) what % of people do get to Level III, b) if it is at all related to political orientation and c) if its related to education, since (if I got this right) the higher educated you are the more likely you are to be liberal.

hammer, meet nail head

[KappaWing]

You two make a perfect couple! 

[Windrunner]

i am giving everyone a friendly warning, keep this thread civil and on-topic or I will CLOSE it.

[Bobboau]

I find it hard to see how thats posable given it started out with; "this theory shows how liberals are moray superior to conservatives"

[TrashMan]

trashman if we ever meet in real life, i'm going to stomp a mudhole in your ass for that statement - you just insulted my fiancee

half the people in this ****ing thread don't know **** about this science - and you're the worst of them - you just insulted my fiancee you ****ing asshole

weakminded she is not - medications are for CHEMICAL imbalances in the brain you farking moron - she has 100x the willpower that you have and 100x the intelligence, but she also has a MEDICAL CONDITION that you're too ****ing stupid and bigoted to understand

No insult intended man.

Chemichal imbalances in brain fall under a mdical condition and taking some medication is the natural thing to do.

When I said weakminded people I meant those who go and cry on the psychiatrists shoulder and tell him their whole history in details and who are physicly healthy.

[Janos]

trashman if we ever meet in real life, i'm going to stomp a mudhole in your ass for that statement - you just insulted my fiancee

half the people in this ****ing thread don't know **** about this science - and you're the worst of them - you just insulted my fiancee you ****ing asshole

weakminded she is not - medications are for CHEMICAL imbalances in the brain you farking moron - she has 100x the willpower that you have and 100x the intelligence, but she also has a MEDICAL CONDITION that you're too ****ing stupid and bigoted to understand

No insult intended man.

Chemichal imbalances in brain fall under a mdical condition and taking some medication is the natural thing to do.

When I said weakminded people I meant those who go and cry on the psychiatrists shoulder and tell him their whole history in details and who are physicly healthy.

Uhm. If mind and physical wellbeing are, in fact, completely interwined and the difference between the two is arbitrary and artificial, then shouldn't that, by definition, make your last sentence paradoxical?
And if not so - if mind and physiological issues are separate entities -, then wouldn't it be silly and likewise paradoxical to say person's physical health somehow disqualifies him from being mentally sick?
People who cry on the psychiastrist's shoulder usually have a reason to do so, no matter how trivial you hold the issue.
If mind and body are one, then mental problems are part of physical problem (or health issues).
If mind and body are not one, then physical problems and mental problems exist independant of each other.
If there is a grey zone then define it.

Also, hopping on "Kazan's first post was so inflammatory and condescesing that calling his on that is not trolling, no matter if he wants it to be so" bandwagon. If someone makes an inflammatory remark then he is none the less immune to rebuttal than those replying to him.

[Night Hammer]

haha, hes gonna stomp a mudhole in you dude, watch out


kaz havent you been engaged for like 4 years, when are yall tying the knot

[Kazan]

When I said weakminded people I meant those who go and cry on the psychiatrists shoulder and tell him their whole history in details and who are physicly healthy.

oops.. my bad - sorry

[Kazan]

kaz havent you been engaged for like 4 years, when are yall tying the knot

in two weeks