[karajorma]

Exactly. What if you do have a miscarriage of justice. Does the accused criminal now have the right to maim everyone involved in his trial for not proving him innocent?

[Scuddie]

Aldo:  You say the US has many well documented cases of wrongful execution?  Well, how about the undocumented cases of wrongful exoneration?  What about the undocumented cases of wrongful execution in countries such as China?  No matter where you look, there will always be something desperately wrong in ANY justice system.

Kara:  They should, depending on circumstances, have the right to make their accusers life a miserable existence.  Maiming would be a little too much though .  The prosecution as a whole is just as corrupt as the attorneys defending the offenders.  So much ado about technicalities, very little about the case itself.

Anyhow, our prisons are called 'correctional facilities'...  If only they did what their names suggested (i.e. social brainwashing), it would bring a huge improvement to our justice system.

[Harbinger of DOOM]

LAS PALMAS, Spain (CNN) -- A man armed with two pistols hijacked an Air Mauritania flight Thursday but was subdued by two passengers, a Spanish official said.

The plane landed safely in the Canary Islands and no one was hurt, the official said.

The senior Spanish government source said a man had been trying to commandeer the Boeing 737 to Paris. He was arrested by the civil guard after the jet landed at Gando Airport, the source told CNN.

Jose Segura, the central government's chief representative in the Canaries, told Ser, a Spanish radio station, that the plane was carrying 71 passengers and eight crew members.

Reports differed on the hijacker's nationality, with one senior Spanish government source saying he is Moroccan and Segura describing him as Mauritanian.

Abass Bass, a representative of the Mauritanian Embassy in Washington, described the incident as a "tentative hijacking."

"The information we had from Mauritania is that the passengers fought back and they took the hijacker and now everything is OK," Bass told CNN.

Bass said the flight had been scheduled to be an interior one, from the capital city of Nouakchott to Nouadhibou, in northern Mauritania, near Morocco.

How they did it:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17183946/

A fast-thinking pilot with passengers in cahoots fooled a gunman who had hijacked a jetliner flying from Africa to the Canary Islands, braking hard upon landing then quickly accelerating to knock the man down so travelers could pounce on him, Spanish officials said Friday.

Along the way, speaking to the hijacker, the pilot realized the man did not speak French. So he used the plane's public address system to warn the passengers in French of the ploy he was going to try: brake hard upon landing, then speed up abruptly. The idea was to catch the hijacker off balance, and have crew members and men sitting in the front rows of the plane jump him, the Spanish official said.

The pilot also warned women and children to move to the back of the plane in preparation for the subterfuge, the official said.

It worked. The man was standing in the middle aisle when the pilot carried out his maneuver, and he fell to the floor, dropping one of his two 7 mm pistols. Flight attendants then threw boiling water from a coffee machine in his face and at his chest, and some 10 people jumped on the man and beat him, the Spanish official said.

Around 20 people were slightly injured when the plane braked suddenly, the official said.

The hijacker was arrested by Spanish police who boarded the plane after it landed at Gando airport, outside Las Palmas.

Air Mauritania identified the heroic pilot as Ahmedou Mohamed Lemine, a 20-year-veteran of the company.

 

Uber pwnage.

[Rictor]

Anyone trying to hijack a plane these days wielding anything less than a machinegun is dead meat. Everyone has seen United 93, and now they've all got a hero complex just waiting for an outlet.

What's even more amazing is that they were aided in their defense of the plane by Microsoft's sturdy and ergonomic XBOX 360 controller (MSRP $24.99), which they used to beat the hijacker into submission, as well as Microsoft's MSN Messenger, the world's most popular IM chat client (http://get.live.com/messenger/overview), with which the passengers communicated secretly in their heroic bid to retake the plane.

[Scuddie]

People actually watched United 93?  I was totally unaware of this.

[jr2]

The US in particular has many well documented cases of wrongful execution, and I don't think the cost of even one innocent life is acceptable in persuing a 'cheap' option of killing rather than imprisoning.

Ok, name one.

[Mefustae]

You think he was bluffing?

[jr2]

No, but I bet he doesn't have a handful off the top of his head... If such a thing were common, the media would be ranting about those particular cases over and over again, whenever there was an execution.

[aldo_14]

Aldo:  You say the US has many well documented cases of wrongful execution?  Well, how about the undocumented cases of wrongful exoneration?  What about the undocumented cases of wrongful execution in countries such as China?  No matter where you look, there will always be something desperately wrong in ANY justice system.

Kara:  They should, depending on circumstances, have the right to make their accusers life a miserable existence.  Maiming would be a little too much though .  The prosecution as a whole is just as corrupt as the attorneys defending the offenders.  So much ado about technicalities, very little about the case itself.

Anyhow, our prisons are called 'correctional facilities'...  If only they did what their names suggested (i.e. social brainwashing), it would bring a huge improvement to our justice system.

Would you rather have a guilty man freed or an innocent man dead?

(oh, and the reason for pointing out the US legal system specifically is because it's from a democratic, free nation claiming to have high standards of justice)

[jr2]

... The ironic thing is, when you free a guilty man, you sentence his next victim to death... and the victims of all who take their cue from his example; they now know that the justice system is not serious about punishing crime.

[Flipside]

I wonder where this kind of thinking came in, that the law works despite people constantly questioning, rather than it works because of people questioning it. Once upon a time that very questioning and constant stress-testing of the law was considered a healthy thing, it made sure that  the laws were fair and enforced fairly.

It's kind of odd to see, particuarly over the last few years, a growing attitude that to question laws and policies is somehow 'anti-government'.

The essential element of law is 'innocent until proven guilty', this does not interpret to 'You're guilty, but we're going to use the word innocent until we can get the evidence together.'. This was a deliberate act because the UK Police in the 60's and 70's were amazingly good at finding evidence that convicted the very person they wanted to convict, regardless of their guilt.

The day we start seeing the Law as something to tell us how to live, rather than something that reflects our right to live as we choose without fear, then we are in big trouble.

[aldo_14]

... The ironic thing is, when you free a guilty man, you sentence his next victim to death... and the victims of all who take their cue from his example; they now know that the justice system is not serious about punishing crime.

Is that any different from the state killing an innocent man?

[Shade]

Absolutely. In the case of letting the guilty man go free, there still might not be a next victim. But in the case of the innocent being executed, there's no second chance. Oh wait, you were looking for someone trying to disagree with you, right? Can't help you there...

[jr2]

... The ironic thing is, when you free a guilty man, you sentence his next victim to death... and the victims of all who take their cue from his example; they now know that the justice system is not serious about punishing crime.

Is that any different from the state killing an innocent man?

Ok, let me get this straight: currently, I am thinking of 'innocent' as in 'not proven guilty'.  I am not thinking of 'innocent' as in 'proven guilty, but we're not quite sure of all the details'.  There are ways of proving things.  You find the accused's blood on the victim, or other evidence you can extract DNA from.  Three witnesses say that the victim was last seen with the accused.  The accused has no alibi, or his alibi turns out not true.  Go ahead.  Poke holes in that case.  Oh, and take your time doing it.. you've got about ten years. 

[aldo_14]

... The ironic thing is, when you free a guilty man, you sentence his next victim to death... and the victims of all who take their cue from his example; they now know that the justice system is not serious about punishing crime.

Is that any different from the state killing an innocent man?

Ok, let me get this straight: currently, I am thinking of 'innocent' as in 'not proven guilty'.  I am not thinking of 'innocent' as in 'proven guilty, but we're not quite sure of all the details'.  There are ways of proving things.  You find the accused's blood on the victim, or other evidence you can extract DNA from.  Three witnesses say that the victim was last seen with the accused.  The accused has no alibi, or his alibi turns out not true.  Go ahead.  Poke holes in that case.  Oh, and take your time doing it.. you've got about ten years. 

Nice - pick a strawman.....

Ok, say the accused got blood on his clothes from administering first aid to the victim in a side alleyway, after the victim was surprise-attacked by an unknown assailant who subsequently ran away.

I'd suggest looking up the case of Kenny Richey; 20 years held on death row for murder-by-arson on shoddy evidence (there was no evidence of premeditation despite prosecution claims, no trace of the claimed accelerators on his clothes, evidence that the victim - a toddler- had started fires in the same flat 3 times in previous weeks, a broken wrist making it virtually impossible for him to physically perform the crime, the Fire Marshall determining the fire was no arson and actually moving the evidence into a petrol station lot - compromising the whole legality and impartiality of the evidence, and the court-appointed lawyer with no experience failing to hire experts or question prosecution evidence.  Oh, and new forensic evidence, from the top experts in the field, proving that there were no accelerants on the carpet for arson - and that prior forensic testing was faulty - was dismissed at appeal in 1997 because it should have been brought up at prior appeals....before it was actually known)

It's taken 20 years to even get a retrial.  and that's with the weight of politicians from the UK and Amnesty International helping push it along, because Kenny Richey is Scottish and UK abhors capital punishment. 

(as an aside, 1 in 10 prisoners executed in the US are mentally ill - how competent does that make them to defend themselves, aside from the illegality of executing the mentally ill under international law?)

[Charismatic]

People are afraid to kill someone else nowadays, we are too civilized.

id at least let my guns off in the crowd before i go.

..that is, excluding me, of course.

[Sandwich]

You guys are all missing my point. IANAL - I'm not going to tell you when someone is guilty or innocent. All I meant by what I suggested/wished was that, once found guilty by the proper channels, the criminal's punishment would not only be punishment, but an example and deterrent to other potential criminals.

Seriously, do you really think that rape would be anywhere near as common if the standard punishment for convicted rapists was to cut their penii off?? Go ask anyone living under Sharia law - from what I understand, they chop off the hands of anyone caught stealing. They don't have much of a theft problem. Or go visit Singapore - they make you sign a slip of paper as you're landing that states that you are aware that the punishment for bringing drugs into the country is death. They don't have much of a drug problem.

IMO, the only people that should be in prison (that come to mind ATM) are POWs. They didn't do anything wrong per se, just fought for their country. Give them a relatively decent life until they're returned to their respective countries. Everyone else, all the convicted criminals especially, should be handed punishments that suit the crime.

[aldo_14]

You guys are all missing my point. IANAL - I'm not going to tell you when someone is guilty or innocent. All I meant by what I suggested/wished was that, once found guilty by the proper channels, the criminal's punishment would not only be punishment, but an example and deterrent to other potential criminals.

Seriously, do you really think that rape would be anywhere near as common if the standard punishment for convicted rapists was to cut their penii off?? Go ask anyone living under Sharia law - from what I understand, they chop off the hands of anyone caught stealing. They don't have much of a theft problem. Or go visit Singapore - they make you sign a slip of paper as you're landing that states that you are aware that the punishment for bringing drugs into the country is death. They don't have much of a drug problem.

IMO, the only people that should be in prison (that come to mind ATM) are POWs. They didn't do anything wrong per se, just fought for their country. Give them a relatively decent life until they're returned to their respective countries. Everyone else, all the convicted criminals especially, should be handed punishments that suit the crime.

Guarantee no innocent man will never be convicted, then you can start debating the punishment itself as applied to the guilty.

Singapore, incidentally, isn't any more crime-free than other Asian cities.  It has more murders per head than South Korea or Australia, and more of all types of crime than the far more lenient Japan.  Crime fell 10% in 2006 but rose 19.9% in 2005.  The number of drug users rose 16% between 2001 and 2002.  It has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, below the US, Russia and South Africa.  History tends to show that harsh punishments have only short term effect, and are subsequently overridden by the prevailing social issues causing crime.  Hence why liberal Scandinavian countries can be, well, liberal and yet very safe.

In Saudi Arabia, crime among jobless young Saudis rose 320% between 1990 and 96, and was expected to rise another 135% by 2005 (no figures if this was met).  Drug smugglers, dealers and users rose from 4,279 in 1986 to 17,199 in 2001.  The murder rate has been consistently rising over the last decade and is now higher than Ireland, Austria, Norway, Denmark, Hong Kong and Japan.