Author Topic: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly  (Read 18627 times)

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Offline SammyG

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Hey guys,

first of all: Great job!

I loved WC3 back with a Pentium 60 and when I was falling over the game again some weeks ago I tried to run it on WinXP (for the joy of old days). As I fought through hours of problems with compatibility and in serious need for help I finally got here - and discovered the "Saga".

Once again: Well done!

But to the point:
I played the "Tutorial" restlessly to the end and I am too impressed to leave without my 50 cents.
In formation flight with a different leader than myself I observed frequent collisions with AI-fighters - partly because the AI made abrupt, illogical movements and partly because I was unable to see where to join which kind of formation (Diamond, Line, Vee or even Wedge?! ... by the way - will there be more than one formation?).

My suggestion is to implement a so called "Flight Director", a system which in modern aviation suggest heading, pitch and roll changes in conjunction with a "Fast/Slow Indicator" which helps in Speed-management. Basically it produces a 3-dimensional vector which is quite easy to follow.
All this may sound quite complicated and hard to code but is in fact a VERY simple matter: in reality it uses exactly the same logic as the autopilot does, it just doesn't control the craft but draws commanding bars into your sights while you decide whether to follow the commands or not.

A horizontal bar commands a pitch, a vertical commands a heading, a triangle tip and its base on top of the HUD command a roll (the tip stays centered while it's base shifts according to the Autopilot's commands left or right). A triangle at the speed scale commands a speed setting. If you are in the flight state the AI would be at that moment the bars cross in the middle over the crosshairs and base and tip of the triangle at the top are aligned so they are seen as a complete triangle.
The Flight Director can be engaged and disengaged whenever necessary, of course.

An example how the system works at a carrier landing since the mode of operation is well to see here:


Pitch down, head a little more left and perform a big roll to your right to align with TCS Victory for approach.


Almost done: Pitch more down, head more left and you just need to roll a little more to the right.


All centered, your flown vector agrees with that of the AP

Note that there is also a "Speed Bug" at the speed scales which commands the length of the 3-dimensional vector.

In my opinion this can offer a great help for formation flying (i.e. wingmen, escorts or also special landings) and (probably later?) for joining larger and more complicated formations (i.e. arranged formations for mixed battle groups or fighters/bombers) and - maybe - that produces even a little more atmosphere (ever played "Operation: Flashpoint"?).

Just an idea, but I'm curious to see if it works out...

Best wishes,


Sammy

 

Offline Tolwyn

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Hmm... it is an interesting suggestion. However, we simply lack the ressources to get this done :(

It is true, that we are not exactly happy with FS2 AI, but I doubt, that we can do much, 'xcept for scripting its behaviour to a certain degree. The Source Code Project team is going to overwork the AI code at a later date. No ETA of course ;) The AI code is perhaps the most difficult part of the engine to rewrite, so...
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Tolwyn’s reputation for risk taking with other people’s lives was considered  to understate the facts. The admiral’s willingness to sacrifice anyone or anything to achieve his objectives had long been lauded in the popular press. He was “the man who got things done”.- Colonel Blair

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
A suggestion on the autopilot issue for when you die...

Why not in-mission load screens?  Divide the mission up into sections.  After you auto-pilot to the new nav-point, end the mission, generate a quick load point, and have your next bit in a new mission.  Something like what's been done in a few of the FS2 campaigns (Transcend and Homesick come to mind).

That way you aren't stuck replaying an entire "boring" (banter isn't boring, it's more tedious and time consuming than boring) series of sections between auto-pilots.  Plus, these mission fragments will be relatively small, so the load time will be quite quick - just stick a screenshot or something on the load screen.  The engine supports these "red alert" style missions, so why not put it to use?  Just my $.02
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Offline karajorma

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Problem with red alert is that if you take heavy damage in the first part but live you'll carry that over into subsequent parts of the mission and it becomes a real hassle to go back and replay the mission from the start.
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Offline Starman01

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Also the loading times between the navpoints will really greatly suck, believe me :)
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Offline Agent_Koopa

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
LoL -  ;)

Post-Size should not affect readability unless it's REALLY crazy-long like in my original first-post-ever here.

This last one seemed pretty reasonable.  I had three people to say things to.  I separated my comments to each of them "To Starman" - "To Tolywn" - etc.  ...and had at most a couple of paragraphs to each of them.

I don't believe in posting 3-times in a row to three people, when I can post one single post to all three.

If you are saying there is a readability difference, that seems silly too.

You would have no problem reading 10-posts in a row (from various posters)....but to read 1 post from me which might be equal to 4-5 other persons smaller posts....suddenly becomes impossible / too hard ?

 :wtf:


I took a moment to copy/paste my post here into Microsoft Word....even with all the spaces and gaps I tried to leave between various points to enhance the readability (instead of running it all together) ....it came out to just 2.5 pages in Word.   That's it.   

When you read a newspaper article it is longer than that.  .  . yet you have a problem reading that post ? 

Remember too that I was addressing three people at once....if you take my actual comments to each of them....they are only about 1/2 a page in length (in Word) ...so again...it basically seems you would prefer that I had posted 3-times in a row...rather than 1-post, combining things ?




Actually, I don't understand why you insist on spacing every other line out. Newspaper articles don't stretch their length with excessive spaces. And you don't seem to see a problem with taking the same amount of room as 4-5 normal posts, do you?  ;)

Also, you have to understand that the Wing Commander Saga is a mod. It may be an ambitious total-conversion mod, but a mod it remains. You want drastic changes to turret AI, you talk to the SCP team. They are the people who make changes to FreeSpace 2's engine, and even then there are some things that cannot be changed, because they're hard-coded into the game.

On the matter of turret priorities, I've never played a Wing Commander game (gasp) but AMGs seem to be heavy anti-cap guns. As you say, they're huge turret assemblies. You may never have played FreeSpace, but let me assure you that it's the same way. Huge anti-cap beams, the size of your fighter or more, are blasted back and forth between ships. However, the Colossus (largest ship in the game) doesn't bother to fire off a BGreen to swat away a measly Loki. It uses laser turrets (admittedly ineffective), flak (more effective) or anti-fighter beams (stay away!) Can you imagine the previous example of a battleship using huge guns to shoot down fighters? Even if it could hit the fighters, it would be gross overkill, as the anti-air armament is there for a reason. On a futuristic space warship, energy would be better distributed to the anti-air, rather than using an immense gun on one tiny target. In Star Wars, turbolasers are not used for shooting down X-Wings. They are a Star Destroyer's primary anti-warship armament. TIE fighters are indeed there for a reason; fighting off Rebel starfighters. Remember the Death Star sequence, and how the turbolasers were enormously ineffective at killing X-Wings? That's like this.
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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
      I'm not really sure what the big issue here is:

      Basically, some people want the big anti-cap guns to fire at fighters, but there's also a desire to have them move slow enough to avoid. Well my question is, if they're slow enough to avoid what's the point of having them target fighters in the first place? In FS1, the Anti-ship guns are slow moving blobs too. And they're _easy_ to avoid. It's much more annoying when a ship has a fighter-type gun on it, because it's hitting your with every shot just about. And yeah, it's one more thing to think about. But if you want to give capships some more bite, give them missile launchers. Which I believe they already have.

      If your fighter is sitting motionless, shooting into a helpless capital ship with stripped AA guns you should be complaining about poor mission design, not game mechanics.

      And if you want to talk about realistic, there's always the question of traverse. If the turret resembles that of a WW2 ship, as it's supposed to, its ability to rotate and bear towards its target should be somewhat slow. If a turret is design to attack slow moving targets, generally it's going to have the capabilities to hit them and not much more.  It would be hard to track and aim at fast moving fighters, let alone connect them with a slow moving shot.


     As for what to base WC:Sage upon. Well Wing Commander, is fundamentally a game. Not a movie. So if you make a mod based on WC, it should be based on the WC games, not the cutscenes, not the movies, not the manuals. The people who make the cutscenes aren't necessarily the people who make the game. FS2's intro is notorious for being non-canon for a multitude of reasons. B/c the movie was made by people other than those who made the game. Just as the WC manuals, in-game Live Action, and the WC cutscenes are probably made by people who did not develop the game. If the same people, do three different aspects of the game, it takes three times as long to produce. That's why you have teams separated into departments.

    It's the same as when people try to port Imperial Star Destroyers to a variety of table top wargames, there's always someone saying "well this book says it has 60 laser, 60 ion cannons". Well Star Wars is fundamentally a movie, not a book. And no ISD in the movie fires anywhere near 60 laser cannons. Though at the same time you can see from the model that the ISD has four major turrets on either side, which never fire, but are still quite visible.

    And if you want something very realistic, then you shouldn't even be playing the game. Because odds are, there will be no such thing as fighters in space combat, not manned ones anyway. The only reason fighters play such a large role in naval combat of today is something called the "horizon". There is no horizon in space.

    Take a step back, realise it is just a game and instead of saying something like "The Kilrathi cruiser was too easy to take out, it's guns were too weak." say "The Kilrathi Cruiser was too easy to take out, it didn't have enough fighter cover". Improving the game is all nice and good, but there needs to be considerations as to what is doable, and what is worth doing. If a change is intended to make the game more fun, can that level of fun be accomodate with improved mission design for example?

    Yadda yadda.



     

 

Offline Turey

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
FS2's intro is notorious for being non-canon for a multitude of reasons.

While the rest of your post is excellent, I have to take issue with this. The intro movie is, like all the movies and all in-game content, canon by definition. The only problem is that it contradicts other canon. This doesn't prevent it from being canon, just makes it contradictory canon.
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why would an SCP error be considered as news? :wtf: *smacks Cobra*It's a feature.

 
Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
True (on Canon) - Star Wars community went nuts when Lucas made his Prequels since he ret-conned (went back and changed things long thought to have been a certain way) so much in the new movies, from what it was before.  However, his movies are Canon - even for people who dislike Jar-Jar - the Gungans are now a "canonized" part of Star Wars lore (ughhh !) - etc.

------

On AMG's - sure they are cap-ship guns (mainly) - and as I had said before, IF there were Cap-Ships present, I'd love for the AMG's to engage those vessels FIRST (primarily).

My "issue" was when there are NO other cap-ships in the area, and the Terran Cruiser is fighting for it's life against incoming Kilrathi Vaktoth and Paktahn figther-bombers....why do 4 of it's 12 guns (the 4-Turrets that are AMG's) simply sit there and do NOTHING ? - They don't even attempt to engage the dire threats flying at them.

And it's the 2600's - the Tech in Wing is sufficiently high enough that AMG's CAN track and fire at Fighter-targets.... hitting them is going to be a little harder since the refire is not "that" fast and the bolts (for Game Purposes of course) 'Fly slower' than those of Laser Turrets (meant to be Anti-Fighter) or other fighter-scale weaponry.

But at least ATTEMPT to shoot the craft that are blowing you to bits....that was my suggestion.

And let's also remember, that if we are going to take the "original stated" number of turrets on a ship - then "subtract out" the number of AMG's / Heavy Guns on that same vessel - the result (for the purpose of SAGA missions) will be a weaker Anti-Fighter ship than it otherwise would have been (since currently, in SAGA, the AMG's never even attempt to engage the starfighters).


Thus....you have the odd example as follows:


(let's pretend you are Kilrathi Pilots and moving in to attack the following 2-types of targets - assume you have taken out the enemy fighter cover for both situations)


1)- Terran Light Carrier -   Laser Turrets (only) - 11   


2)- Terran Heavy Cruiser - Laser Turrets (12 - BUT WAIT !  - 4 of them are AMG's and thus will never fire at you and your wingmen)....so "really" only 8 Laser Turrets to worry about firing back !

-------------------

Thus, because AMG's will not fire on Fighters (currently) - you have the very strange in-game situation where it's much-preferred to attack an enemy Heavy Cruiser, than an enemy Light Carrier with no fighter cover left ! ?   That's crazy because in "real life" the Heavy Cruiser should be the most intimidating and heavily armed vessel you could take on as a fighter pilot (not counting battleships / dreadnought type rare-ships).  But due to the odd targeting "flags" apparently present in FS2's engine - you have situations where you WANT to be facing the Heavy Cruiser because it will only "shoot at you"  with 8 total guns instead of the Light Carrier firing on you with all 11 (since all are considered Laser Turrets).


 

Offline Wanderer

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Dunno.. IMO Heavy cruiser should be designed to go head-to-head against hostile capships and perhaps leaving its point/anti-fighter defence to its escorting lighter warships and fighters. On the other hand carrier is not meant to operate near hostile capships so it should concentrate more closely to anti-fighter defences.
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Offline Tolwyn

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
That's the point. Same goes for the Kilrathi light cruiser actually. It is THE anti-fighter-aircraft weapon, but it won't stand a chance against a Confed destroyer (well, it does have a slim chance, really, really slim chance by taking out AMG turret :)).
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Tolwyn’s reputation for risk taking with other people’s lives was considered  to understate the facts. The admiral’s willingness to sacrifice anyone or anything to achieve his objectives had long been lauded in the popular press. He was “the man who got things done”.- Colonel Blair

No errors, no random CTDs, just pure fun and proof of why getting hit with missiles is a bad thing.
-WC Saga's beta tester


Report Wing Commander Saga bugs with Mantis

 

Offline jr2

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Uh, for the time issue (waiting while in downtime) try using Shift + < and > to manually change your Time Compression 1 - 64.

 

Offline Tolwyn

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Uh, for the time issue (waiting while in downtime) try using Shift + < and > to manually change your Time Compression 1 - 64.

hehe, which brings me to another thing I want to implement in every mission

every-time
true
reset time compression ;)
Wing Commander Saga: A Legend Is Reborn | WingCenter
 
Tolwyn’s reputation for risk taking with other people’s lives was considered  to understate the facts. The admiral’s willingness to sacrifice anyone or anything to achieve his objectives had long been lauded in the popular press. He was “the man who got things done”.- Colonel Blair

No errors, no random CTDs, just pure fun and proof of why getting hit with missiles is a bad thing.
-WC Saga's beta tester


Report Wing Commander Saga bugs with Mantis

 

Offline jr2

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
[grunt]
BAD Cyborg!!
[/grunt]

 
Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Admiral Tolwyn - you  seemed to state that the Kilrathi Light Destroyer (8 Turrets, one of which is a Turreted-Tacyon Gun if I remember right) - has a very slim chance of beating a Terran Destroyer  ?   Why ?   Why only a "slim" chance ?

Going strictly off the Wing-III-Manual stats, it's true that the Terran Destroyer has 2000 cm/equivalent of shields while the Kilrathi Light D. has only 1500 cm/equivalent of shields....but other than that .... what "major edge" does the Terran ship have ?

The SINGLE AMG-turret ?  That's not going to make "that" much of a difference in the battle, is it ?   Particularly cause, if I remember right from the SAGA prologue missions, the Kilrathi Destroyer has 2-Missile/Torpedo Tubes up-front while the Terran ship has only that one centrallly-mounted one (above the AMG) ?

So couldn't the Cat ship simply double-the amount of Torpedoes shot out each salvo (over what the Terran craft could do) and simply overwhelm its counter-part vessel in that way ?

 

Offline Tolwyn

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
.......Kilrathi Light Destroyer........

did I say that?
Wing Commander Saga: A Legend Is Reborn | WingCenter
 
Tolwyn’s reputation for risk taking with other people’s lives was considered  to understate the facts. The admiral’s willingness to sacrifice anyone or anything to achieve his objectives had long been lauded in the popular press. He was “the man who got things done”.- Colonel Blair

No errors, no random CTDs, just pure fun and proof of why getting hit with missiles is a bad thing.
-WC Saga's beta tester


Report Wing Commander Saga bugs with Mantis

 
Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Whoops ! - lol - looks like you ACTUALLy said "Kilrathi Light Cruiser is THE anti-fighter aircraft weapon"....

But you might forgive my mistake since I've never heard of a Kilrathi "Light Cruiser" in Wing-III game before ?  - The Fralthi-II (which is what the ship in Wing-III that is called Kilrathi Cruiser - is supposedly classified as) - is (I always thought) a Heavy Cruiser.

I think in Wing Prophecy - they actually say "a Fralthi II Heavy Cruiser" - when talking about the wreckage you are flying in to land the Marines on during the games intro mission / discovery of the "Bugs" - etc.

So the idea that the Fralthi Cruisers seen in Wing-III (or SAGA) are really only LIGHT - Cruisers would come as something of a surprise to me.   If they are the "LIGHT" ones...then what are supposedly the Heavy Ones classed as or armed with / or how big are they / etc. ? ?


And if you are meaning to be referring to the Kilrathi Cruisers in your comment about it having a very minimal chance against a Terran Destroyer ...ummm....are you sure that's what you meant ?  Cause I believe the firepower of a SAGA Kilrathi Cruiser (Light or Heavy or whatever you want to call it) FAR exceeds the guns of a Terran Destroyer (in Wing III, SAGA, etc.) - soooooo...what exactly did you mean when you wrote that earlier comment ?

--------------------

Here's the comment / posting you made that I originally was talking about:

Posted by: Tolwyn 
Insert Quote
That's the point. Same goes for the Kilrathi light cruiser actually. It is THE anti-fighter-aircraft weapon, but it won't stand a chance against a Confed destroyer (well, it does have a slim chance, really, really slim chance by taking out AMG turret 

 

Offline Tolwyn

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Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
Fralthi is a  heavy cruiser. Fralath is a light cruiser. :)
Wing Commander Saga: A Legend Is Reborn | WingCenter
 
Tolwyn’s reputation for risk taking with other people’s lives was considered  to understate the facts. The admiral’s willingness to sacrifice anyone or anything to achieve his objectives had long been lauded in the popular press. He was “the man who got things done”.- Colonel Blair

No errors, no random CTDs, just pure fun and proof of why getting hit with missiles is a bad thing.
-WC Saga's beta tester


Report Wing Commander Saga bugs with Mantis

  
Re: The Good, the Bad, the Ugly
So was the Wing-2 era "Fralthra" considered a "heavy" / medium / or light cruiser also ?