Author Topic: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?  (Read 2486 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/08/05/02/0128239.shtml


Quote
Dorkz brings news of a class-action settlement from Creative Labs over the capacity of their HDD MP3 players. Evidently they calculated drive capacity in base-10 (1,000,000,000 bytes per GB) instead of base-2 (1,073,741,824 bytes per GB). The representative plaintiff is entitled to $5,000, and everyone else who bought one of the HDD MP3 players in the past several years gets a 50% discount on a new 1GB player[PDF]. They can also opt for a 20% discount on anything ordered from Creative's online store. Creative has made available all of the necessary legal forms. Seagate lost a similar lawsuit late last year.


:wtf: This has got to be one of the most blatant abuses of the legal system I've seen.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline achtung

  • Friendly Neighborhood Mirror Guy
  • 210
  • ****in' Ace
    • Freespacemods.net
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
Depends.

Did Creative make it apparent they were calculating in base-10 instead of base-2?
FreeSpaceMods.net | FatHax | ??????
In the wise words of Charles de Gaulle, "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."

Formerly known as Swantz

 

Offline Kosh

  • A year behind what's funny
  • 210
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
I see your point, I didn't think of that.
"The reason for this is that the original Fortran got so convoluted and extensive (10's of millions of lines of code) that no-one can actually figure out how it works, there's a massive project going on to decode the original Fortran and write a more modern system, but until then, the UK communication network is actually relying heavily on 35 year old Fortran that nobody understands." - Flipside

Brain I/O error
Replace and press any key

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
I wonder when things go the same way with webcams that show "1024x768" resolution in the box, and only inside the box they say that it's just the software interpolated size of the image, and the actual resolution is only 640x480 (or worse)... :rolleyes:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
This is something that just about every hard drive manufacturer does. The capacity in base 10 is always a larger number than in base 2, so the companies advertise that.

Although the base 10 version makes more sense anyway so I don't mind. :p It would be nice if they just kept everything in bytes to avoid this confusion altogether.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
I'm actually glad this happened, I've always considered them using Base 10 a bit of a cheek, because the only people who understood those numbers when they started being used were geeks, so they weren't doing it for convenience, they were doing it to deliberately mislead people.

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
i really never cared about what i consider spare change. considering a good portion of your hard drive will be eaten up by file system anyway. people have just accepted the fact that you never get whats advertised. one thing i cant stand is over optimism when describing the products capabilities. id rather the law state how far you're allowed to go when marketing something, rather than have a lawsuit paid to someone who has enough money to afford the lawyer, where everyone else hast to settle with being lied to.
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
But in many ways it's the public's ability to write off a little bit as 'just one of those things' that is the core of the problem. It didn't matter so much in the past, the spare change from a 10 Gig drive was a couple of megs, however, for a Terrabyte drive, you start looking at something like 24 Gig's of missing Disk-Space. As drive sizes increases, the small change will start getting bigger and bigger.

 

Offline IceFire

  • GTVI Section 3
  • 212
    • http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/ce
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
This is something that just about every hard drive manufacturer does. The capacity in base 10 is always a larger number than in base 2, so the companies advertise that.

Although the base 10 version makes more sense anyway so I don't mind. :p It would be nice if they just kept everything in bytes to avoid this confusion altogether.
Most of them are being sued over the same issue.  Creative is just one of the fringe lawsuits really.
- IceFire
BlackWater Ops, Cold Element
"Burn the land, boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me..."

 

Offline Polpolion

  • The sizzle, it thinks!
  • 211
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
So they're losing a few hundred megabytes of storage that would be used to store pirated music, so what?

 

Offline achtung

  • Friendly Neighborhood Mirror Guy
  • 210
  • ****in' Ace
    • Freespacemods.net
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
So they're losing a few hundred megabytes of storage that would be used to store pirated music, so what?

It's not so much the loss of space, it's a case of false/misleading advertisement.  I'd be pretty pissed to find I was gypped out of any amount of space I was told I paid for.
FreeSpaceMods.net | FatHax | ??????
In the wise words of Charles de Gaulle, "China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."

Formerly known as Swantz

 

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
But in many ways it's the public's ability to write off a little bit as 'just one of those things' that is the core of the problem. It didn't matter so much in the past, the spare change from a 10 Gig drive was a couple of megs, however, for a Terrabyte drive, you start looking at something like 24 Gig's of missing Disk-Space. As drive sizes increases, the small change will start getting bigger and bigger.


Actually, it's much worse than 24 GB in a TB HDD. It's almost 100 GB! Hell, my laptop has an advertised 100 GB HDD and it only has 93 GB.

The problem with this is that there are two standards, the JEDEC and the IEC 60027 which are incompatible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix#Approximate_ratios_between_binary_and_decimal_prefixes
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Scuddie

  • gb2/b/
  • 28
  • I will never leave.
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
The base2 system for 1kB is 1024B.  For base10, it's 1000B.  It's a loss of 2.35%.  It's a loss, but actually pretty small.  On the other hand, the base2 system for 1TB is 1099511627776, while the base10 number is 1000000000000.  That's a loss of over 9.2%!  Not exactly a small loss.

The problem with their cheating is obvious.  The sectors are written in 512 byte, which ultimately means their storage MUST be referenced by a multiple of 512 * the number of heads.  I don't want my drive to be advertised as a number that doesn't reflect that law.  If I am purchasing a drive that has 4 platters, and 10 million sectors per head, I had better see it as 36.7 gigs and not 40 gigs.  To do otherwise is total deception.
Bunny stole my signature :(.

Sorry boobies.

 

Offline Mefustae

  • 210
  • Chevron locked...
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
It's a seriously annoying problem. Just recently I bought a nice, 500GB external HDD to backup my work. I open it up and suddenly it's; "Sorry! We know we said 500GB multiple times on the box, but you can only put 465GB on here. Deal with it!". Same thing with my old iPod. There's a big "2GB" emblazoned on the back, but you can only fit 1.7GB worth of stuff on there. **** that! I paid for a 2GB model, I want 2 ****ing GB!!

Frankly, i'm bloody surprised there aren't more of these suits. I mean, seriously, it's like buying a 6-pack of beer and only finding 5 bottles in there. Up with this I will not put!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 11:16:09 pm by Mefustae »

 

Offline CP5670

  • Dr. Evil
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
Well, I think Windows (and OSs in general) is more at fault here than the hard drive companies, since it interprets all byte prefixes in the silly and confusing binary way while using the same terminology. If you look at that drive's properties in Windows, chances are that the total number of bytes will be something close to 500 billion even though the GB rating looks off. In that sense, their advertised number is correct.

Using binary bytes under the same prefixes as the decimal ones makes no sense at all. The giga prefix in any other context means exactly 109, not 230. This is why I would prefer to have everything shown in bytes or billions of bytes, without any of these ambiguous prefixes. I have my file manager program set to show everything in bytes.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2008, 12:43:23 am by CP5670 »

 

Offline Stealth

  • Braiiins...
  • 211
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
Although the base 10 version makes more sense anyway so I don't mind. :p It would be nice if they just kept everything in bytes to avoid this confusion altogether.

they do keep everything in bytes... they just calculate how MANY bytes differently :p ;)

 

Offline Nuke

  • Ka-Boom!
  • 212
  • Mutants Worship Me
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
id rather the hard drive box list "formats to" numbers as well. they really aren't concerned with the file system in use. different file systems eat up a different amount of space. also my experience is that its not wise to fill up a partition beyond about 80 percent (15 for defragging plus an extra 5 in case some program decides to put large files somewhere). once all the space considerations are accounted for you get all but 30+ percent of the advertised space. so i say buyer beware. i tend to look at the speed (seek time) of a hard drive over its capacity any day though. so long as the capacity is +/-50 gigs of where i want it im happy. 

as for the ipods, they are advertising the space of the flash memory that is installed in it (and no doubt the flash memory people advertised the chips as the same number), leaving out the fact that there must also be an operating system installed for the player. same goes for the hd based players, they are gonna advertise whats in the specs of its parts.

i cant blame the companies for trying to show all the good points of whatever they are trying to sell. but it seems like they are willing to hide the limitations of the technology from public view. you cant blame them for that because its considered acceptable because all the companies are doing it. to do otherwise would be corporate suicide since consumers will always go for the prettier box. i blame the consumers' stupidity just as much as the marketing deception which has become an industry standard thanks to the complacency of the buyers.

look at things like cell phones, mp3 players, laptops, software, prefab furniture, bicycles, food, whatever. you see quality standards dropping everywhere. i seem to see alot of innovation in goods, but not alot of refinement. everything seems to have short development cycles and shorter support cycles. everything is obsolete before it leaves the store. they refuse to fix huge bugs in drivers and software and use cheap, weak materials in construction whenever possible.

we have grown into a throw away society so willing to accept the crap they sell us and throw money at it like its nothing. we should all know that companies will do whatever is legal (and some stuff that isn't) to make a buck. this should be etched into our very psyche. we as the consumer who have the money also have the power to decide what is acceptable and what is not by what we choose to buy. you just have to wave your money in their face and say "you can't have this." enough people do that, and that company will have to rethink their product. stop rewarding them for their lazyness.

 :hopping:
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

Nuke's Scripting SVN

 

Offline FUBAR-BDHR

  • Self-Propelled Trouble Magnet
  • 212
  • Master Drunk
    • 165th Beer Drinking Hell Raisers
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
I remember when SCSI drives would list both capacity and formatted capacity in both Meg and actual bytes.  That's been quite a long time ago.  There would also put a disclaimer about the number of sectors not being the actual usable number of sectors due to defects in the media surface excluded in the drives sector table.  Followed by another warning about wiping that crucial info out if you low level formatted the drive yourself. 
No-one ever listens to Zathras. Quite mad, they say. It is good that Zathras does not mind. He's even grown to like it. Oh yes. -Zathras

 

Offline Polpolion

  • The sizzle, it thinks!
  • 211
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
I understand that I'm really not one to be talking, what with about half of my not-broken storage filled up, but frankly, if you're normally within 9.2% or so of the max space of your storage device for long periods of time, then you're buying storage devices that don't store enough data. Use some common sense and don't buy a device that's not cutting so close.

The only times that I can honestly see this really being an issue is with the extremes of storage size. Obviously if you fill up a 1Tb hard drive, you're going to run into price barriers, and back in Mefustae's 2gb ipod issue, that 9.2% is actually quite a bit more than it seems, and if you honestly don't need 4gb and don't want to pay for it, then sure.

I got my 8gb mp3 player for this reason, and I actually got it for about $10 cheaper than the same series, yet 6gb player. My present music collection is only like 900mb, most of which is taken up by about 400mb of 13 lossless wavs.

  

Offline Mars

  • I have no originality
  • 211
  • Attempting unreasonable levels of reasonable
Re: Calculating capacity in base 10 = lawsuit?
Use FLAC