Author Topic: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.  (Read 7523 times)

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Offline Flipside

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
I was actually just thinking that.  If I had some crazy, uncrackable safe, could they charge me with obstruction for refusing to give up the combination?  I'm pretty sure you could plead the fifth there, as the combination would be considered evidence, wouldn't it?  So a password should follow the same line of thought.

It's somewhat rocky ground, I think, after all, what is being asked for is not evidence, it's access to evidence, telling someone your password is not an incriminating statement in and of itself, however, by answering it, he is giving  Police something that could be used to incriminate him.

It's a very subtle difference, and one of those horrible, and yet inevitable language-drift things in law that frustrate me sometimes.

Edit: The bit that really cooks my noodle is, I think that by taking him to court over his password, they have made it into evidence, thus bringing the Fifth into play.....
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 06:51:46 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
Maybe there is another article saying something different but the one quoted definitely does not sound like it's his Windows log on password at all.

It's not the Windows password - that's breakable.  Do a search on HLP; this very case was discussed when it was first reported.  The man has selected for Customs exam when entering the US from Canada.  He provided his PGP encryption passphrase by entering it into the computer when the officer discovered the presence of the encrypted drive.  Child porn found, guy is arrested, computer seized.  Computer is powered down, PGP session ends.  Months later they try to get back into it for court evidence and discover they need the passphrase.  Guy initially refuses to provide it.  He then claims conveniently that he's forgotten it.  Fast-forward to latest court decision as discussed in the article.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
This page goes into the ruling in more detail.

This page is also interesting, talking about a device getting seized "indefinitely" by DHS.

I'm pretty sure that I saw an article earlier in the year about this, on slashdot, but I can't find it now. I'm a bit uncomfortable about doing a concerted search for a news article when one of the key phrases involves "child porn", for obvious reasons...

Re: chief1983, from the ruling -
Quote
In distinguishing testimonial from non-testimonial acts, the Supreme Court has compared revealing the combination to a wall safe to surrendering the key to a strongbox. See id. at 210, n. 9; see also United States v. Hubbell, 530 U.S. 27, 43 (2000). The combination conveys the contents of one's mind; the key does not and is therefore not testimonial.1 Doe II, 487 U.S. at 210, n. 9. A password, like a combination, is in the suspect's mind, and is therefore testimonial and beyond the reach of the grand jury subpoena.

I don't quite get what the ruling is saying as to why the government's offer to not use the act of incriminating Boucher doesn't hold. It seems like the ruling is saying that because there could be additional items on the laptop that would be incriminating, besides the child porn, he can't give it up; but my understanding of similar situations is that in a similar case, the additional items would be admissible (EG you force someone to give up the key to their house to do a search for a bloody knife, and you find a bag of weed in the kitchen).

OTOH the judge might be coming at this from the perspective that, even if you tell the jury it can't regard the entry of the password as being incriminating, it's extremely probable that the jury will still make a decision based on that fact. But since, technically, you can't say that, he's leaving it unspoken for this ruling.

As the judge also says, it's equivalent to asking the defendant if he knows the password, and it reveals the contents of the defendant's mind. I think the analogy he's drawing is more akin to asking for a key that you assume that the defendant has, and asking for a key that you don't know the defendant has.

For instance, suppose someone is accused of murdering a woman's husband. Compelling to produce the key to their own house to search for the bloody knife would be fine; it's expected that somebody has the keys to their own property. Compelling them to produce the key to the woman's house would not be acceptable, because it would basically be having them admit to an affair with the woman, as long as there's no other convincing reason for them to have the key. If you could do that, you could compel people to produce whatever illegal items they have and then prosecute them based on that.

In this particular case, I think that would could be used to exonerate this from application of the Fifth would be the fact that the defendant claimed to have downloaded pornography to the encrypted partition prior to showing it to the law enforcement officers. Since Boucher already revealed that he uses the partition (after he waived his Miranda rights), it would be reasonable to assume that he also has the passphrase required to view the partition. The only reasonable argument I can see somebody making that would explain him not having the passphrase would be that he had someone else set up the encryption, and never turned the computer off, so he never needed the passphrase to view the partition.

The problem is that it really is still self-incrimination. Suppose that Boucher decided to tell the court that he had forgotten the password. There's not much they can do to prove him wrong. Putting him in that kind of situation would give him substantial motive to lie under oath and there is no evidence that can be produced that would contradict him. Though it can be (reasonably) said that Boucher encrypted the drive to restrict access, it still relies on unsubstantiated assumptions which can't be proven.

Or suppose that Boucher claims that he doesn't know the passphrase, but his dad does, and Boucher's father claims that Boucher knows the passphrase. How can you tell which one is lying without relying on the testimony of either one?

EDIT: @MP-Ryan: That's the way I remembered things as well (Boucher entered the passphrase for the customs guy). But according to the sequence of events in the ruling,
Quote
Agent Curtis did not see Boucher enter a password to access drive Z.

Overall, I get the feeling that the judge's ruling is basically: "Since we can't prove that we aren't lying, we aren't going to put you in a position where it would make a difference if you did, so that the Fifth Amendment doesn't get tarnished in the process."

But it is possible that he's guilty, and he also forgot the password. If he came up with some long, elaborate password and set it just before the trip, but didn't realize that the drive would encrypt itself when he put it back to sleep, I can see him forgetting the password by the time it came to trial. After all, he would have no motive to remember it, anyway. So him forgetting the password could be used as support for an argument that (1) He did know he had child porn (2) He did know that he could get searched at the border (3) He knew that he would be arrested if child porn was found (4) He encrypted the drive to prevent the border patrol from being able to access the child porn.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 08:40:18 pm by WMCoolmon »
-C

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
Another thought, how does this stand in financial laws? Say a company is under suspicion, and passwords all its finance documents. Can they be compelled to produce those passwords or the documents inside them? I'm not sure whether there are special requirements of Organisations etc. with regards to things like that.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
That's a really good hypothetical situation. The only significant difference I see is that there are reasons for a company to keep records such as those. I don't know what type of records you'd be required to keep as a business, but I do assume you'd be forced to file a tax return of some kind and keep records available in case of a dispute arising with a customer.

In addition, you assume that the company does own and has composed the financial documents. If that's already the case, unlocking them with passwords would not demonstrate any guilt whatsoever.

Finally, if you did use the "I-forgot-the-password" defense, you'd be forced into not conducting business using the information for the duration of the trial. Dunno what tactics could be used, but if the prosecution pushed the trial into going until, say, the next filing date for taxes, you could be in a serious world of hurt as a business. I'd imagine that if you were already being investigated for some kind of fraud and then failed to produce good tax records, you'd find yourself in an audit pretty quickly. Either that or you submit the complete tax form and have it used against you in court.

Now if someone claimed to have seen financial documents on a company computer that differed from the main ones, I think you'd have a ruling that would come out to be the same as this one. If you ordered the owner of the business or the accountant to unlock those files and they did so, then they would be demonstrating a connection between them and the files - effectively incriminating themselves.
-C

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
It's not the Windows password - that's breakable. 

Which was my point really when Trashman claimed it had to be a password he used every day. If you encrypt a file or drive you're only going to need the password when you use the drive.

Quote
Do a search on HLP; this very case was discussed when it was first reported.  The man has selected for Customs exam when entering the US from Canada.  He provided his PGP encryption passphrase by entering it into the computer when the officer discovered the presence of the encrypted drive. 

But the the article linked doesn't say that. And the best I've seen from wikipedia is that the defendant was asked to use the machine AFTER the customs agent saw the titles of pictures and videos that sounded like child porn on the machine. There is no mention whatsoever in any article I've seen which says that the defendant entered a PGP password. Merely that he showed the agents how he used the machine.

Besides if it comes down to a newspaper article getting it wrong I suspect the one at the time to be incorrect as by now the facts of the case will have been talked to death in court.

Quote
Computer is powered down, PGP session ends.  Months later they try to get back into it for court evidence and discover they need the passphrase.  Guy initially refuses to provide it.  He then claims conveniently that he's forgotten it.

Which is quite possible if he hadn't used it for months. We don't know how long he had the encrypted drive. For all we know he encrypted it the day before the trip and hadn't ever entered the password. Let's face it. If we believe your interpretation of how the guy was caught then he's obviously a doofus in addition to being a pervert so forgetting the password isn't something I'd consider an impossibility.

And that's before we consider the fact that maybe a 3rd party encrypted it for him.
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Offline Al Tarket

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
what ways are there to encrypt a drive?

1. if it was done over a wireless connection even wireless lan and a fully wired connection, it should of been detected and if it came to his drive when? which raised the question

1.a. supposing he wanted to be arrested and made sure that laptop had porn and made sure the customs officer got a good eyeful so this man could get himself into trouble. maybe to undermine the supreme court and turn it into joke or simply to show you can be above the law, no matter what crappy police chase videos show on tv. i dont know. if that was the case, he either had help to pull this whole thing off while making sure to keep anyone involved at arms length to prevent the forces at work discovering the true intent, meaning the internet connection to his drive to do such a thing.
or its possibly if did he it alone meaning he made sure this encrypted drive was open to make sure of such a problem and then when the computer was shut down the passkey might of randomized a new key, its entirely possible to download such a program to that drive and prevent tampering which would make his "i dont know my password" all the more truthful maybe because he really doesn't know.  and i bet good money their is a trap switch that will automatically destroy the drive if the passcode was hacked making this entire case a waste of time.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
I agree with all of Karajorma's points.

My apologies, I put the wrong link for the ruling. It's actually:
http://www.volokh.com/files/Boucher.pdf
(or EFF, somewhat more respected source)
http://www.eff.org/files/Boucher.pdf

And it's 6 pages in big font, so it's worth it to read if you're interested.

Quote
On December 29, 2006, Mike Touchette of the Vermont Department of
Corrections took custody of the laptop. Touchette created a mirror image of the contents
of the laptop. When Touchette began exploring the computer, he could not access drive Z
because it was protected by encryption algorithms through the use of the software Pretty
Good Privacy (“PGP”), which requires a password to access drive Z. Since shutting down
the laptop, the government has been unable to access drive Z to view the images and
videos containing child pornography

So it doesn't matter at this point if the drive has a killswitch. If they try to crack the passphrase and it causes the drive to erase itself, they can just restore it from the original. It's the time required to find that crack which is an issue.
-C

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
And, if the drive had a killswitch, you'd think he'd have used it instead of the real password.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
What's funny Trashman, is that your views on child porn are merely the result of your own upbringing.  It's very likely that different upbringings will give people very different opinions on the subject.  It's not through some genetic trait that we're supposed to acknowledge 18 as the age of consent and appropriateness.  In fact it's quite the opposite, genetically, most people are going to desire to copulate with anyone capable of reproduction.  Fear of what others might think is very often the main reason a person won't stray too far away from their own age group.  Is there a great deal of different between a 16 year old ending up with a 28 year old, as opposed to a 19 year old with a 45 year old?  Yet one is (in most states) illegal, and the other is not.  However, when people think of child porn, the connotation that is usually associated is a person who is pre-pubescent.  There is not really a logical reason in any society to have a desire for this, and I would probably consider that perverted.  However, perversion isn't illegal.  I agree with nuclear, the creation and distribution is what should be illegal.  I'm tired of illegalizing the ownership of certain things, as a general principle and nothing on the side of ownership of child porn specifically.

On another note, steganography anyone?  Should work fairly well, even at a customs inspection.  But the smartest idea is to simply keep that kind of data off of anything that could be searched, either access it via the net after getting through customs, or put it on a MicroSD card in your phone (honestly, who looks _in_ a phone?).

The difference is the childs inability to fully understand and cope with all the implications of sex.
That's why we scockingly try to protect our children.
you cna try to bing upbriging into this as much as you want - it's simply hte right thing to do.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
Another thought, how does this stand in financial laws? Say a company is under suspicion, and passwords all its finance documents. Can they be compelled to produce those passwords or the documents inside them? I'm not sure whether there are special requirements of Organisations etc. with regards to things like that.

As the girlfriend does accounting stuff, allow me to answer.

US law has been specifically written such that financial documents are, more or less, a matter of public record. Your tax returns aside, at any time you may be required to turn over your financial documents to either the SCC or the IRS when they conduct an audit: there is no defense against an audit and the law was specifically written so that there would not be. The only possible defense you have in such circumstances is to destroy or falsify your documents, one of which will still get you in trouble, the other of which isn't much of a defense at all. Too many people would know it had happened (either because they did it, or because those are not the documents they handled) and been involved in doing so.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 11:40:51 am by NGTM-1R »
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
[*mega-snip*]
The difference is the childs inability to fully understand and cope with all the implications of sex.
That's why we scockingly try to protect our children.

I'll say it again: If these laws were created to protect children, then I wouldn't mind them. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. These laws were created to punish people for having a particular fetish.

-----

And, if the drive had a killswitch, you'd think he'd have used it instead of the real password.

You'd also think that he would disconnect Drive Z before going through customs.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
he's obviously a doofus in addition to being a pervert
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
Thanks for the answers about how it would work financially :)

Quote
I'll say it again: If these laws were created to protect children, then I wouldn't mind them. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. These laws were created to punish people for having a particular fetish.

Problem is, it is hard to seperate the two, you cannot have one without harming the other.

In theory I agree that drawings, stories etc are perfectly legal, though have concerns about 'feeding' a fetish that, if acted out in real life, cannot help but lead to the abuse of a child. But I'm a lot more shaky on the grounds of photos, since they contain real people, which means at some point a child was abused.

That said, it also needs to be held in mind that, in the UK, for example, a relationship with a 17-year old is legal, in fact, I think you can even pose topless in newspapers like The Sun, a national Newspaper, whereas in some states in the US, that's child porn.

The thing is, you can never wean people off of a fetish, it's the nature of them that the more forbidden they are, the more tempting they become, I don't agree with killing a group of people for their fetish, most certainly, but it's a really complex problem to solve, since it is considered socially unacceptable even to defend it, which leaves these people isolated, feared and hated.

The sad fact is, there are very few families out there that haven't had child abuse happen at some point, but in those cases it is 'kept quiet' because it was a relative or close family friend, this has only recently started being reported, but it's gone on throughout history, the method of thought definitely seems to have swung from 'see no evil' to 'kill them all', and neither are likely to help.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 04:34:49 pm by Flipside »

 

Offline Mars

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
A simple look at a porn site shows that many people have such a fetish "teen" "young" and "schoolgirl" are defaults of the industry. Those are the words that get the ratings. Of course part of this might have to do with their clientel being mostly in their teens.

I don't really care, as long as these people stay the hell away from my kids... when I have them.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
And, if the drive had a killswitch, you'd think he'd have used it instead of the real password.

Well, not necessarily. If they were able to detect that a killswitch had been engaged, he'd have just handed the prosecution evidence that he had something to hide, and he had set up the encryption on the drive. Plus he'd be obstructing justice by destroying evidence.
-C

  

Offline chief1983

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Re: Federal judge rules passwords, etc protected under 5th.
Depends on how the kill switch works.  Could be a combination of a kill switch and steganography, in which it only wipes a portion of the data.  Many ways to hide things from prying eyes, without suspicion, if you really want to.  It doesn't even have to be a kill switch, just a different password that goes to financial documents instead.
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