[Styxx]

Ah, cool. It could be translated into that too... I just got the easier alternative (what almost never works when it comes to Tolkien ).

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by venom2506
yeah, true, I forgot that, and the Numenor realm are now the waste lands in the north of Middle Earth.

Are you really sure about that? Numenor was an island (some could say it was a small continent) in the west, far away from Middle Earth. In the north (northwest, actually) of Middle Earth there were once the lands of Beleriand, but those were destroyed too, when the Valar accepted to help elfs and men against Morgoth. And that's quite an interesting story too, because Morgoth was bound to the lands as Sauron was to the One Ring, so the Valar had no choice but to destroy Beleriand.

And now just a minor correction... I said Numenor was destroyed, but it was actually just sank.

[Nico]

well, that's what's written on the map anyway I think.

[Tar-Palantir]

I stand corrected on the Noldor/Teleri thingy. My mistake.

You can get the complete Silmarillion on tape. Its about 14 hours and read by Martin Shaw. I've got it.

Yavanna was the Valar (well Valier actualy since she was a Queen of the Valar) who feared for the forests and trees.

Morgoth was bound to the lands

I don't think that Morgoth was bound to the land as you say. The general destruction of Beleriand was just because of the battling Valar againest the various forces that Morgoth had cooked up, which weas quite a lot as it 'had become great beyond count'.

Just to clarify, Numenor was an island.

Just the change the subject slightly. How did Gollum get out of the Mines of Moria? According to 'Unfinished Tales' had got thje the West Door (thought which the Fellowship entered) and followed them back to the eastern door, therefore he was behind them. Gandalf the has the fight with the balrog, and the Bridge of Khazad-dum is destroyed. In the book the Bridge is described as 'an ancient defence...against any ememy that might capure the First Hall and the outer passages' suggesing that to get out one must have to cross it. Therefore if Gollum was behind the Fellowship he would of had a hard job crossing the now destroyed bridge. Does this strike anyone as being odd?

Of course its more than possible that Gollum got overtook the Fellowship before they were attacked and was over the Bridge long before they were. Just somthing to think about.

[Nico]

actually, there's just a small portion of the bridge that is destroyed, and gollum could have just jumped over it. Or he could just have wait for the gobelins to somehow "repair" it. He also could have just run on the ceiling, i'm sure he can if there's enough things to hook to.

[Su-tehp]

About Gollum: Yeah, he could have crawled over the ceiling as venom said, but I'm more inclinied to agree with Tar-Palantir.

I think it's more likely that when Pippin caused the ruckus with the skeleton in Balin's tomb, Gollum heard that and said "SH-T!" to himself and ran for the East entrance. As soon as Gollum heard the noise, he knew that the Orcs were going to be on the Fellowship like white on rice, so he ran for the bridge ahead of the Fellowship and crossed it before they did, then just waited for them to cross the bridge and started following Frodo again once the Fellowship was across.

Oh, change of topic: I just bought a copy of the 13 CD audiobook of the Simarillion only two hours ago! DUDES, IT ROCKS! I've only listened to the first part of the Ainulindale, but Martin Shaw has a great voice. I've never been a big fan of audiobooks, but Shaw really does the reading justice.

I HIGHLY reccommend this audiobook. I managed to find a copy of it (the only one!) at Border Books and Music. If you guys have a Borders bookstore near you, you should be able to find the Simarillion audio CD book without too much trouble. If worse comes to worst, there's always Amazon.com; they should be able to get you a copy in a few weeks.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Su-tehp
Oh, change of topic: I just bought a copy of the 13 CD audiobook of the Simarillion only two hours ago! DUDES, IT ROCKS! I've only listened to the first part of the Ainulindale, but Martin Shaw has a great voice. I've never been a big fan of audiobooks, but Shaw really does the reading justice.

I HIGHLY reccommend this audiobook. I managed to find a copy of it (the only one!) at Border Books and Music. If you guys have a Borders bookstore near you, you should be able to find the Simarillion audio CD book without too much trouble. If worse comes to worst, there's always Amazon.com; they should be able to get you a copy in a few weeks.

Damn right. I never recommend lemons.

Just wait until you get to the Lay of Beren and Luthien. That, I think, is when Shaw shows the power of his voice and the power of Tolkien's prose.

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
I don't think that Morgoth was bound to the land as you say.

Oh, he was.

See Hystory of Middle-Earth 10 - Morgoth's Ring.

[Tar-Palantir]

when Pippin caused the ruckus with the skeleton in Balin's tomb

Except in the book Pippin doesn't cause any ruckus with a skeleton in the tomb, he drops a stone down a well thingy much earlier on in the trip through the mines. Gollum might have leggged it then instead.

Regarding the Morgoth bound to the land thingy. Do you mind if I remain unconvinced for the moment? Nowhere have I read in Tolkiens work that he was bound to the land, doesn't mean its not true though. Could you give a brief quote the that chapter?

One good thing witht the audio books, I now finally pronounce all the names correctly!

[Nico]

he was not "bound", but I think he couldn't leave back to Illuvatar, so I suppose it's the same

[Su-tehp]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Regarding the Morgoth bound to the land thingy. Do you mind if I remain unconvinced for the moment? Nowhere have I read in Tolkiens work that he was bound to the land, doesn't mean its not true though. Could you give a brief quote the that chapter?

I remember seeing a summarization on the back cover of one of the Tolkein books called Morgoth's Ring. Of course, Morgoth never had an equivalent magic ring to Sauron's One Ring, as far as I know, BUT I think the summary said something about Morgoth's power being bound to the land of Middle Earth the same way Sauron was bound to the Ring. So "all of Middle Earth is considered to be Morgoth's Ring," hence the title of the book Morgoth's Ring.  (That stuff in quotes is something I paraphrased from the summary of the back cover of Morgoth's Ring.)

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Regarding the Morgoth bound to the land thingy. Do you mind if I remain unconvinced for the moment? Nowhere have I read in Tolkiens work that he was bound to the land, doesn't mean its not true though. Could you give a brief quote the that chapter?

No, I don't mind... But he was, I'm pretty sure about that.

And it's not a chapter, it's a book. It's called "Morgoth's Ring", from the "Hystory of Middle-earth" series, as I said earlier.

Su-tehp is absolutely right.

[Tar-Palantir]

I'll have to look out for the book.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by venom2506


how the hell can you assume that? I don't thnk it's written anywhere, and I've never heard about that either

I found it.

But he was not alone: for of the Maiar, many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness and remained in that allegience down into his darkness. And others he corrupted afterwards unto his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these servants were the Valarauka, the Scourges of Fire, that in Middle Earth were called the 'Balrogs', demons of terror.

Sorry about the spelling, I'm transcribing from the audiobook.

[mikhael]

I just restarted the Silmarillion today on my way home from work. Shaw's voice is so right for this piece. Its magical.

Anyway, Steak asked for the hierarchy, so I paid close attention for him.

The Ainur encompasses the Valar, the Maiar and the other creatures of Iluvatar's creation before the Ainulindule and the creation of Arda. When Iluvatar gave the Ainulindule to the Ainur, he gave each a part and bade them sing it.

I had been under the misimpression that Arda was created from the Ainulindule, but that is not the case. From the Ainulindule, Iluvatar wove a vision of what could be for the Ainur, then created Arda, the Earth and told the Ainur to go make it as they had seen in the vision.

Fifteen Ainur went to Arda and became part of it and it a part of them. Of the fifteen one was cast out and the other fourteen are named the Valar. There are seven male and seven female Valar.

The Valar (kings) were Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Orome, Mandos, Lorien and Tulkas. The Valiye (queens) were Varda, Yavana, Niena, Este, Vaire, Vana, and Nessa. Of the Valar, eight were called the 'High Ones': Manwe, Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna, Aule, Mandos, Niena and Orome.


Interestingly, four of the Ainur that came to Middle Earth are directly connected to elements: Manwe is associated with the air, Aule with the earth, Ulmo with the water, and Melkor with fire.

During the creation of Arda, Melkor and Aule fought constantly. Aule would create an ocean and Melkor would drain it. Aule would build mountains and Melkor would knock them down. Aule would dig a great canyon and Melkor would fill it.

As for the Maiar, it turns out that all the Valar--and Melkor--brought some with them. Sauron was one of Aule's earth Maia who was seduced away by Melkor (now called Morgoth).