Author Topic: Swiss ban building of Minarets  (Read 12091 times)

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Offline Ziame

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
First off: as someone said, it's just minarets and not mosques, so i don't see a problem. Besides, show me a Muslim country in which you can build a church, or wear a crucifix on top of your clothes. (I'd say North Africa, though dunno really) 
Rabbinic Judaism had a good start with the Old Testament but kinda missed the point about 2000 years ago

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
Iran?

Indonesia?

Egypt? Mostly kinda?

All that said, yes, it is hypocritical for anyone from, say, Saudi Arabia to get worked up over it. Stupid fatwas.

 

Offline Ziame

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
So, three countries out of, like, twenty?

Besides like it was stated minarets=/= mosques, so I don't see a real problem here.
Rabbinic Judaism had a good start with the Old Testament but kinda missed the point about 2000 years ago

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
Whoa, whoa, what the ****.  :wtf:

I just named three random countries (though I'm not sure Egypt actually qualifies.) I did not delineate the status of church building all Muslim countries. In general I get the sense that this status is fairly grim and hardly fair. However, your original statement was factually incorrect and has now been rectified. Attempting to substitute a less absolute statement in its place is not wise (although it would probably be a correct statement; again, these countries are not particularly kind to church-builders.)

That was either a blatant attempt to put words in my mouth or a serious misinterpretation. Watch yourself.

Historically Islam was actually far more tolerant of Christianity than vice versa, though in recent times that's less true (largely because we've got something wonderful called secular humanistic democracy!)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 12:30:31 pm by General Battuta »

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
Eastern Orthodox Catholic. It's an important distinction. Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Catholicism regard each other as interchangeable and have for a long time. You can recieve communion at either, go to confession at either, and the other will regard it as perfectly valid. That's why they were lumped together as simply "Catholicism". Anglicanism has also been retroactively lumped into the same category by the Pope's olive branch to the Anglican community; they're being allowed to keep their own practices if they choose to change their allegiance which amounts to tacit approval of their practice, and the Patriarch or anyone else has not issued any modification of the approval of Roman Catholics to exclude the Anglicans who change allegiance but not practice so that is tacitly approved as well. The Lutherans fall into a somewhat grey area in that Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Roman Catholic will allow communion but not confession. That pretty much accounts for 70%+ of Christianity right there.

So as a practical matter, the majority of Christianity sees it in a much less complex light then you do. Two of what you would term "major factions" literally consider themselves brothers.
"Catholic" is an attribute claimed by any communion that believes itself to be representative of the ancient, undivided Christian church, and thus necessarily puts those organizations that use it at least somewhat at odds with one another, though they certainly do sometimes make good-faith efforts to broaden their common ground. The smooth interchangeability you refer to is between the Roman Catholic Church and the autonomous Eastern Catholic Churches, which are in full communion with the Pope but often use Orthodox rites. These churches are distinct from what we commonly call the Eastern Orthodox Church, which refers to itself as the Orthodox Catholic Church, and is most certainly not in full communion with the Pope. Attempts at reconciliation between Roman Catholicism and the Orthodox Church are relatively recent; if I'm not mistaken, John Paul II was the first bishop of Rome to visit Eastern Orthodox territories since the East-West Schism, and he was not always greeted warmly on his tour.

But I take your point that most Christians themselves probably do not see it as quite so complex. And as I was originally trying to get at, the question at the center of this discussion is not religion's tendency to fracture in abstract space, but rather its tendency to engage with local and regional cultures, resulting in fractures that do not necessarily coincide with official divisions. My original example of a discussion between an Ethiopian Orthodox priest and a Pentecostal minister was not meant to highlight the differences between catholic Christianity and Non-Trinitarianism, (vast though they may be), but to draw an analogy to Islam's regional heterogeneity. What I mean to say is, the greatest differences between Christians you will find are often geographically based. (And these geographical differences inform, and are informed by, denominational distinctions.) Islam in Indonesia is substantively different from Islam in Morocco, and Christianity in Ethiopia is substantively different from Christianity in the United States. That's all I was trying to say.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
So, three countries out of, like, twenty?

Besides like it was stated minarets=/= mosques, so I don't see a real problem here.

It's not whether minarets are important or not (which they are, being the the vantage point from which the call to prayer is issued), it's the intolerance.  The Swiss have a right to retain their culture, but this ban on minarets just reeks of Islamophobia.

Quote
Besides, show me a Muslim country in which you can build a church, or wear a crucifix on top of your clothes. (I'd say North Africa, though dunno really)
Yeah, because the Muslim world's intolerance of other religions justifies the West doing the same thing. :rolleyes:
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Offline Narvi

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
I don't see the point of keeping minarets around if you aren't going to put loudspeakers on them anyway. Their functionality is lost.

 

Offline mxlm

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
The notion that we shouldn't hold ourselves to higher standards than the likes of Saudi Arabia is ludicrous.
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
The notion that we shouldn't hold ourselves to higher standards than the likes of Saudi Arabia is ludicrous.

while that is true it helps little that countries who wouldn't even know what freedom of religion* is if it hit them in the ass keep criticising those who do recognise that freedom. Do it enough and the countries of freedom are going to send a giant "****-you" towards the intolerant.
*There's 51 countries in the Organisation of Islamic Countries, afaik none of them has freedom of religion as it is enshrined in western society, and yet they moan and *****.

(And this morning in my newspaper: Spanish police arrests 9 Salafist moslims on suspicion of planning to carry out an illegal verdict by an illegal sharia-court.  The court had condemned a woman to death for adultory. The arrested people had already kidnapped the woman and were now planning to get rid of her.
This is not going to convince people that the Swiss were wrong)
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
Quote
Besides, show me a Muslim country in which you can build a church, or wear a crucifix on top of your clothes. (I'd say North Africa, though dunno really)

Iran. There are some very old, very distingushed Christian churches in Iran. People from Europe make pilgrimages to them.

Sharia law dictates the rights and priviledges of non-Muslims who follow a Christian or Judaic persuasion as very similar to those of Muslims themselves. Their communities can govern themselves as they see fit but must submit to the wider Muslim community in matters of external affairs. They may not carry weapons. However it is also specifically enshrined they may also not be taxed more heavily than Muslims and must be granted the freedom to worship as they choose.

If you were born Christian or Jewish in Iran, you are protected by Islamic law. Roughly 5% of the country follows these religions, no less. You simply can't convert from Islam to them, because that's apostasy.
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Offline Janos

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
First off: as someone said, it's just minarets and not mosques, so i don't see a problem. Besides, show me a Muslim country in which you can build a church, or wear a crucifix on top of your clothes. (I'd say North Africa, though dunno really)  

Tu quoque?
lol wtf

 

Offline Janos

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
*There's 51 countries in the Organisation of Islamic Countries, afaik none of them has freedom of religion as it is enshrined in western society, and yet they moan and *****.

"Oh no! People not part of western society do not subscribe to relatively recent ideals of western societies! This is an outrage! We better show them the freedom of religion by trying to limit their expression of religion. That'll teach them."

Are you arguing for or against freedom of religion or is it applicable just to some points? I didn't know Swiss muslims were responsible for OIC's stances. I thought this great religious freedom you just happened to praise was applicable to anyone?
lol wtf

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
I'm not really sure what the ultimate goal of all this is. To be intolerant of Muslims?

 

Offline Turambar

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
maybe they're intolerant of being woke up at frakking 4:30 in the morning for the call to prayer.

it certainly didn't make me a happy camper when i was visiting my half million cousins in algeria :-P
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
I'm not really sure what the ultimate goal of all this is. To be intolerant of Muslims?

Got make sure they stay in good favor with the Vatican for when they reup their contract for Swiss Halberdiers.  :P
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Offline Janos

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
I'm not really sure what the ultimate goal of all this is. To be intolerant of Muslims?

Yup. The reason is that the muslims (the Collective, apparently) are intolerant of something else. I usually get about that far before my brain shuts down.
lol wtf

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
Those people will still be Muslim after this, and they're going to be more upset, so good work fellas.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
It really has bugger all to do with the noise.

Listen.
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Offline Mika

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Re: Swiss ban building of Minarets
Quote
It really has bugger all to do with the noise.

Listen.

This is what the opposing political leaders say. I would be more interested in hearing the common people commenting on their decisions.
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