[NGTM-1R]

Reductio Ad Absurdum .. .you love it so much you can just as well put it in your signature.

Absurdity is always ascendant dealing with you, so I just sort of make the assumption that we're going to end up at Reductio Ad Absurdum eventually. I decided to cut out the middleman.

Mock it all you want, color is no indication of [V]'s intent.  They aren't astronomers.

They may not be astronomers, but I think the highest level of astronomy knowledge we can call on here in this thread is "ungifted amateur" and yet we still knew. You cannot reasonably dismiss out of hand the possiblity that nobody in group of somewhat intelligent people did not know. For that matter, you can't dismiss out of hand the possiblity that, being somewhat good writers, they didn't look it up to ensure a level of authenicity.

But more to the point, you're assuming you can read 's mind and say "they didn't mean this!" without any evidence. Both the game and the cutscene match so I think somebody gave a specific instruction for a yellow star, therefore the color choice was intentional on some level.

And I think it is intentional. I think they meant for Capella to be unable to go supernova naturally.

Because it makes the Shivans damn scary.

Prove me wrong.

The Capella in-game may be yellow, but we don't know what that means.

I think we do. All you have is denialism; I have a compelling storytelling reason why could have wanted a sun that would not naturally explode.

You cannot directly correlate to reality. Half of thing don't act in reality the way they do in FS...

Do you have a point, or are you grasping at straws? We have no reason to believe that supernova mechanics are different in the FS universe. In the absence of a reason to believe otherwise, the null hypothesis holds: things work the same.

I also wonder.
Which version of the Mentu is canon? With a beam cannon or without one?

Gameplay trumps fluff. This is a game; gameplay is Primary Source.

[Kopachris]

Just a little note: we can't tell the class as detailedly as "G2V" just off of in-game Capella's color.  You need color and size to make a determination like that—and we don't have any reference for in-game Capella's size.  With just color, we can only tell so far as a G-type star.  It might have been said before, but real Capella A is a G8III yellow giant—likely an average-sized white star on it's way to becoming a red giant.

It seems there are two possibilities here.  Either [V] knew what they were doing with making in-game Capella yellow, or they just made it yellow to seem more like our Sun, to give the player a sense of "this is home" and make it more tragic when it's destroyed.  Or it could be both.  Having a high opinion of [V], I'd personally like to think it was both.  Capella seems to be the perfect candidate story-wise to be destroyed by the Shivans.  I think NGTM is right—having a star of insufficient mass go supernova makes the Shivans damn scary, and could be important to whatever vision [V] might have had to complete the story before it was all thrown out the window.

[General Battuta]

"Real Capella" is no such thing - it's two binary pairs (one of which is the G8III you described.)

[Kopachris]

"Real Capella" is no such thing - it's two binary pairs (one of which is the G8III you described.)

I said "real Capella A", with the 'A' at the end referring to the main component of the first binary system (the G8III), the brightest star of the system.  The smaller component of the first binary system is another yellow giant, and the second binary system (to form a quaternary system) is a pair of brown dwarfs orbiting the first binary system at a distance of 10,000 AU.

[General Battuta]

You're right, I just missed the A.

[TrashMan]

Absurdity is always ascendant dealing with you, so I just sort of make the assumption that we're going to end up at Reductio Ad Absurdum eventually. I decided to cut out the middleman.

This again?
I see you decided to cut out commons sense, civility and your brain.

They may not be astronomers, but I think the highest level of astronomy knowledge we can call on here in this thread is "ungifted amateur" and yet we still knew. You cannot reasonably dismiss out of hand the possiblity that nobody in group of somewhat intelligent people did not know. For that matter, you can't dismiss out of hand the possiblity that, being somewhat good writers, they didn't look it up to ensure a level of authenicity.

But more to the point, you're assuming you can read 's mind and say "they didn't mean this!" without any evidence. Both the game and the cutscene match so I think somebody gave a specific instruction for a yellow star, therefore the color choice was intentional on some level.

And I think it is intentional. I think they meant for Capella to be unable to go supernova naturally.

Because it makes the Shivans damn scary.

Prove me wrong.

Actually, it's you who are making a claim that they msut have planned it, so it's your job to prove your claim.
Good luck with that.

I think we do. All you have is denialism; I have a compelling storytelling reason why could have wanted a sun that would not naturally explode.

The reason is as compelling as one wants it to be. There can be numerous reason why the sun would not naturally explode and multiple reasons why it would.
One can always find reasons. Without confirmation, they mean nothing.

I could argue that they wanted the sun to be able to blow up naturally, to keep the shivans power levels in a more believable level. Or for some other reason.
But it's pointless to argue it as the "truth" as neither you or I know what the truth is.

Do you have a point, or are you grasping at straws? We have no reason to believe that supernova mechanics are different in the FS universe. In the absence of a reason to believe otherwise, the null hypothesis holds: things work the same.

You mean like lasers, subspace, gravity, inertia, friction in space, etc...?

Again, you're inventing some rules for yourself. Rules that don't exist in reality.

I also wonder.
Which version of the Mentu is canon? With a beam cannon or without one?

Gameplay trumps fluff. This is a game; gameplay is Primary Source.

So sez you. Maybe you're right. But there's no hard rule that gamepaly trupms fluff. See?
Again, you're taking something that isn't definite, as a definite law.

[NGTM-1R]

Actually, it's you who are making a claim that they msut have planned it, so it's your job to prove your claim.
Good luck with that.

The Law of Conservation of Detail

A yellow sun was specified. This means, more likely than not, someone had a reason. If a detail makes it consistantly onto the screen, in something made on a budget and a time limit, more than likely somebody had a reason.

The reason is as compelling as one wants it to be.

Not really. (See below.) Unless you're again inadvertantly admitting your immunity to logic as you have in the past.

There can be numerous reason why the sun would not naturally explode and multiple reasons why it would.

There is no reason for a star of Capella's apparent size and spectral type to supernova under natural conditions. At all. You betray your ignorance.

One can always find reasons. Without confirmation, they mean nothing.

There are grades of reason: ability to fit with the tone and facts of the game, for example. We're searching for a particular flavor of reason, one that enhances the story the FreeSpace 2 is trying to tell. I have presented such a thing, because I think we can all agree that FS2 was set up to present the Shivans as Kicking Unholy Amounts of Ass.

I could argue that they wanted the sun to be able to blow up naturally, to keep the shivans power levels in a more believable level.  Or for some other reason.

Show of hands, please. Who thinks cared about making the Shivans "believeable" in FS2?

I mean, it's not like they're not already busting down the door to the repository of all physics knowledge, using the textbooks for toiletpaper, and then burning the place to the ground. If cared in the slightest for believeablity, we wouldn't be talking about induced supernovas.

And since we ARE talking about induced supernovas, just as icing on the cake, the simplest way to trigger one (interrupting the flow of energy from the core of the star outward) wouldn't actually give a damn about star spectral type or mass.

But it's pointless to argue it as the "truth" as neither you or I know what the truth is.

But I don't care about the truth here. I've already stated that; I'm here for not the truth but the probable truth, the reason, the object, that bests fits the evidence and tone of the situation being discussed. I believe I have it. You have yet to present any evidence that sways me from this posistion, or for that matter to even present a viewpoint of your own besides denying I am correct.

That is, frankly, pure trolling. If you don't have a viewpoint besides denial, get out of the freaking argument.

You mean like lasers, subspace, gravity, inertia, friction in space, etc...?

Again, you're inventing some rules for yourself. Rules that don't exist in reality.

On the contrary, I'm citing a fundemental law of good storytelling. Unless the story says otherwise directly, things should work in a way the audience will be familar with. This is a key element in invoking willing suspension of disbelief by making the story more familar and hence more "real" to them.

So sez you. Maybe you're right. But there's no hard rule that gamepaly trupms fluff. See?
Again, you're taking something that isn't definite, as a definite law.

Okay, present to me a reason why gameplay should not trump fluff for an actual game.

You do have one, right?

[TrashMan]

The Law of Conservation of Detail

A yellow sun was specified. This means, more likely than not, someone had a reason. If a detail makes it consistantly onto the screen, in something made on a budget and a time limit, more than likely somebody had a reason.

That is no law. And you cannot know for sure it's being used here.
Reason? There's ALWAYS A reason. Maybe the FREDer that made the first mission in Capella used a yellow sun, and other just followed suit. Maybe the FREDer just likes yellow. I don't know.

There can be numerous reason why the sun would not naturally explode and multiple reasons why it would.

There is no reason for a star of Capella's apparent size and spectral type to supernova under natural conditions. At all. You betray your ignorance. [/quote]

*Sigh* Clearly I'll have to spell it for you.

There are reason both for and against why a mission designer could choose one or another (sun that can go nova naturally and sun that can't).
I was not describing the phisical process of a star going nova, but rather the process of design choice

There are grades of reason: ability to fit with the tone and facts of the game, for example. We're searching for a particular flavor of reason, one that enhances the story the FreeSpace 2 is trying to tell. I have presented such a thing, because I think we can all agree that FS2 was set up to present the Shivans as Kicking Unholy Amounts of Ass.

Everyone's got their own idea of what exactly the tone is. Everyone's got their own idea of how powerful the shivans are or should appear.

your reasoning is no more or less correct than anyone elses.

Show of hands, please. Who thinks cared about making the Shivans "believeable" in FS2?

Show of hands is irrelevant. This is no popularity contest.
Writers don't change the story or characters just because of show of hands.

But I don't care about the truth here. I've already stated that; I'm here for not the truth but the probable truth, the reason, the object, that bests fits the evidence and tone of the situation being discussed. I believe I have it. You have yet to present any evidence that sways me from this posistion, or for that matter to even present a viewpoint of your own besides denying I am correct.

And you're the sole and designeted aribiter of that probabiltiy I wager?
Probable truth? By whose standards?

The evidence is the same for you and me, but we draw different conclusions from it. the tone is subjective to a point. Well, most of what you say is subjective to a point anyway.
You have yet to present any evidence to sway me from MY position.

Why can't you just accept the fact that we have no idea what [V] intended with the Capella sun, instead of trying to push your own theories as "more right than anyone elses"

That is, frankly, pure trolling. If you don't have a viewpoint besides denial, get out of the freaking argument.

No, the only troll here is you. Which you prove again and again by deliberate ad hominems and use of agressive vocabulary.

Okay, present to me a reason why gameplay should not trump fluff for an actual game.
You do have one, right?

Do you have a opposite one?

[Kopachris]

Why can't you just accept the fact that we have no idea what [V] intended with the Capella sun, instead of trying to push your own theories as "more right than anyone elses"

Why can't you just accept the fact that some people like to theorize?  Or did you just not read the title of this thread?  This thread is for theories about Shivans.  That's the whole point of this thread.  We don't know what [V] intended, but we find it damn fun to make our own guesses based on the evidence provided in the canon, and to wage war between theories, pointing out flaws in others' and upholding the strength of our own.  I guess speculation just doesn't do it for you.  If that's the case, the door out of the thread is to your right; you may use it.

[TrashMan]

Why can't you just accept the fact that some people like to theorize?  Or did you just not read the title of this thread?  This thread is for theories about Shivans.  That's the whole point of this thread.  We don't know what [V] intended, but we find it damn fun to make our own guesses based on the evidence provided in the canon, and to wage war between theories, pointing out flaws in others' and upholding the strength of our own.  I guess speculation just doesn't do it for you.  If that's the case, the door out of the thread is to your right; you may use it.

Theorizing is perfectly fine.
As long as you're not pushy about your theory - a very important difference you seem to miss.

Now, if we're done with this dick waving contest, mayhaps things can continue in a calmer and more civilized fashion...

[Mongoose]

TrashMan, the only one I see acting in an uncivilized fashion here is you.  NGTM-1R has presented numerous justifications for his statements, yet all I've seen in your responses is the equivalent of the five-year-old's "I know you are, but what am I?"  If this back-and-forth keeps up, I'm stepping in and locking the thread, and I'll make sure that someone higher up than me knows why it was locked.

[General Battuta]

Actually, I'm not ready to drop the hammer on TrashMan here.

Let's just lock the damn thing.

[el_magnifico]

With all due respect, I'm getting tired of this.
Every time there's an interesting topic, some guys start an argument over the size of their respective penises and then it gets locked.

Why?

[General Battuta]

Nature of the beast, people don't want to back down, it gets personal. Happens to everyone, most definitely including myself.

[el_magnifico]

Truth, sometimes it happens to me too.

But "Trashman vs. NGTM-1R" seems to be a serial topiclocking event around here. When this happens on every topic you enjoy, and even some you don't, you begin to feel a bit frustrated.

Take this one for example: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67857.180

Or this one. It was a gem, I really enjoyed it: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68147.40

And it seems this has been going on for a while now.

[Mongoose]

Since this seems to have meandered over to discussion on the nature of the argument itself, instead of the original topic, I think I'll take Battuta's cue and just lock it.