[Kosh]

True, but they didn't start the derivitives mess.

[Deka1184]

Reading MP-Ryan's post in the parts that concern the "American Dream", its hard not to draw a parallel to the myth of the metals in Plato's Republic, where class unrest is kept in check by a story with roots that only glance the surface of reality. I would argue, however, that it was a firm reality at a few points, such as back when we had factory jobs here in Michigan, particularly Detroit and Flint. At the height of union power, the automotive companies could move anyone firmly into the middle class, and simply investing back in the company moved you to the upper class or at least the upper-middle class.

Then came Reagan. 

Now, of course, there is nothing left of this state but two smoldering ****holes.

[Kosh]

It wasn't the fault of any presidents economic policy that the Rust Belt became so, well, rusty. A large factor of that was colossal mismanagement and wage/benefits inflation. By the late 70's the big three were making cars that no one wanted at prices people weren't willing to pay. That's what nearly destroyed them. 

[IceFire]

I totally get (although I don't condone in the slightest) how some people go totally bonkers and decide to shoot up a place.  Most of them were normal people pushed way beyond what they were capable of handling and they didn't have a good support structure (friends, caring family, etc.) in place to help them before they totally lost it. It's horrible for everyone involved.

I'm counting myself as one of those wage slaves and I'm trying to figure out a new plan to get out of it.  The problem is complex and politics and politicians and American companies have a fair bit to do with it but there are other factors too.  The baby boomers and the economy in general are a problem too.  The boomers were able to move up through the ranks and fill all kinds of positions.  Because they are living longer and capable of working for longer than ever before AND because of the economic turmoil for the last decade they have been holding on to their jobs and refusing the retire.  There are people in their 60s and maybe even 70s still working full time professionally.

The generation after the boomers has been stuck waiting for these people to finally retire so they can move up the ranks too.  They have had to make due with lower paying more junior positions all the while trying to attain that middle class lifestyle that the boomers had.  And now my generation enters the mix... the so called boomer echo.  There's nowhere for us to go.

Between the constant outsourcing, lack of available senior positions, corporate top heavy quasi-royalty class, and the state of the world economy there is no where to go.  It doesn't matter if you work hard or slack off. It doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you're on.... Actually no... if you belong to the right wing then you might honestly believe that this is all of a good thing so you might be ok with it.  To get all colloquial... it does suck pretty hard.

Hopefully things get better someday.

[Deka1184]

It wasn't the fault of any presidents economic policy that the Rust Belt became so, well, rusty. A large factor of that was colossal mismanagement and wage/benefits inflation. By the late 70's the big three were making cars that no one wanted at prices people weren't willing to pay. That's what nearly destroyed them. 

Reagan allowed rampant outsourcing.... The factors you mention did initialize the slump, but the corporations would have eventually had to accept the rude awakening and adapt. Instead, they simply outsourced. They didn't have to adapt. He gave them a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The result is that the companies were able to instantly add about 30 years onto their lifespan, but at the permanent cost of Detroit and Flint. Clearly whoever kept their jobs at big 3 management have been wallowing in their own complacency, because the mismanagement and corruption within the big three are still at critical levels. All the blue collar jobs left a long time ago. The white collar ones are mostly intact, but they are going away now too. They employ a lot of brilliant, hard working people, but its just an old boys club now. All of these people live in the suburbs, anyway.

As for the laid off blue collar workers, the final nail on their coffin was the war on drugs, another Reagan delight. Thats all Detroit is nowadays. I sat in a courtroom for hours and virtually every case was a drug charge. Glad to see Regan left a permanent legacy of employment security for some people....

[SpardaSon21]

You do realize The Big Three simply could not support the pensions and health care they were paying?  Oh, and the Jobs Bank was another wonderful invention, where people got paid money to do nothing and wait for a job opening.  Detroit would have gone bottoms-up sooner or later, whether or not Reagan did anything.  The Big Three could have adapted and made different cars, but choosing to outsource was a corporate decision first and foremost, so they deserve the blame for making the choice, not Reagan for simply allowing them a choice.  Oh, and Toyota and the like happen to be doing just fine with their non-union auto plants in places like Kentucky, which could be considered them outsourcing jobs from Japan and Korea to the United States.

[Liberator]

Sparda, the difference is that, culturally, it's difficult for them[the management] to treat they're workers poorly so long as the workers treat the management well.  It's a matter of honor that they all work together to make the company greater as whole, which is something that's been lost in American culture sadly.  If Joe Bob hurt his leg and couldn't work for a few months, you made sure he didn't lose his house and had food on his table, in return Joe Bob was happy and probably worked harder than he did before his accident.

[General Battuta]

That 'honor the company' attitude is very strong in Japan, and look how well that's working.

[NGTM-1R]

Sparda, the difference is that, culturally, it's difficult for them[the management] to treat they're workers poorly so long as the workers treat the management well.  It's a matter of honor that they all work together to make the company greater as whole, which is something that's been lost in American culture sadly.  If Joe Bob hurt his leg and couldn't work for a few months, you made sure he didn't lose his house and had food on his table, in return Joe Bob was happy and probably worked harder than he did before his accident.

This is absolute bullcrap. It has nothing to do with cultural Japanese restrictions; being a salaryman in Japan is many times more dangerous to your mental and physical health than it is to be a worker in a factory for Toyota in the United States. Even a cursory knowledge of Japanese work environments and societal pressures would teach you that.

[IceFire]

Sparda, the difference is that, culturally, it's difficult for them[the management] to treat they're workers poorly so long as the workers treat the management well.  It's a matter of honor that they all work together to make the company greater as whole, which is something that's been lost in American culture sadly.  If Joe Bob hurt his leg and couldn't work for a few months, you made sure he didn't lose his house and had food on his table, in return Joe Bob was happy and probably worked harder than he did before his accident.

This is absolute bullcrap. It has nothing to do with cultural Japanese restrictions; being a salaryman in Japan is many times more dangerous to your mental and physical health than it is to be a worker in a factory for Toyota in the United States. Even a cursory knowledge of Japanese work environments and societal pressures would teach you that.

He does have a point that there is still a certain honour system that is in place.  All too often it is abused and far too often Japanese workers have literally worked themselves to death. There is a certain collective spirit that ironically isn't being called communism here but you can bet that a few Right wing mouthpieces would call it that if anything like that were to take root in North America.

As usual we're both far on the extremes.  Working to death because the company said to style of worker loyalty versus I'm only in it for myself and screw everyone else.  There has to be a middle ground...

[vyper]

I find the notion that corporate exploitation didn't exist prior to the arrival of Milton Friedman laughable at best. Certainly the way both Regan and Thatcher embraced his economic philosophy created a much larger wealth gap in both America and the UK than was previously there, but it didn't suddenly change the relationship between corporate employer and employee. It changed who they were having the relationship with.