Author Topic: Holy ****. True telepathy modeled in living humans?  (Read 9658 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Holy ****. True telepathy modeled in living humans?
I don't think their behavior supports that claim at all, though.

 

Offline Ravenholme

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Re: Holy ****. True telepathy modeled in living humans?
I don't think their behavior supports that claim at all, though.

It's a very odd area though - they have one brain, due to the shared parts of the Diencephalon, and their stable neuronal links, which allow for the comprehension of thoughts and visual data from parts of the brain belonging to the other half. It just happens that the presence of two distinct areas other than that is leading to the development of two personalities, backed by the fact that they (I assume) have control of mostly seperate bodies as well. Honestly? I'd love to be with the neurologists working on this case, because we're going to have to write up a few definitions and throw out a couple of books to describe this one.

(And I thought my HP was cool, a pioneering study that hopes to prove if there is adult neurogenesis [associated with seasonal rythmns] in the Hypothalamus, using sheep as a model. Neurogenesis has never been definitively proved in the Hypothalamus, though a few studies have hinted that it might be occurring)

Edit: I think the differences in opinion between the two of us (because for the most part we seem to be in agreement) is that I'm approaching this purely in terms of neurology/biology, and not factoring in Psychology. Mostly because doing psychology in my first and second years as an elective convinced me that the scientific method of that particular school is severely lacking, and that the only trustworthy part of the school was Biopsychology. Of course, I'm just stating my opinion (backed up by some education in the area), and I could be 100% wrong. I just find that being neurally joined makes it very, very hard for me to call them seperate organisms and I think we simply differ about the usage of telepathy to describe this. If they were neurally seperate, then I would be 100% behind calling this telepathy, I just think calling it so just now is rather sensationalist. If they manage to seperate their brains (Which I imagine will be impossible for the forseeable future), and perform the axon capping you just described, then it would be true telepathy, albeit technologically aided.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 12:41:43 pm by Ravenholme »
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Holy ****. True telepathy modeled in living humans?
I just find that being neurally joined makes it very, very hard for me to call them seperate organisms and I think we simply differ about the usage of telepathy to describe this.

They each appear to have independently-functioning nervous systems.  While the neurologist remarked that each girl has one hemisphere slightly smaller than the other, the only apparent neural connection documented in their brains appears to be what they're calling a thalamic bridge.  Indeed, the video and anecdotal evidence from the article points to two discrete personalities (and before we talk about MPD, in MPD the splits are not fully-functioning independent personalities).  The physical and neural connection does not negate their status as discrete organisms; they are more akin to symbiotes than a single organism.

Telepathy is loosely-defined as the transfer of thought from one discrete consciousness to another.  (Oxford English Dictionary:  "the supposed communication of thoughts or ideas by means other than the known senses. ")  Again, the video and article seem to point to the transfer of both sensory input and higher thought via a previously-undocumented neural connection through anecdotal accounts; that fits the definition, if it can be substantiated.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Holy ****. True telepathy modeled in living humans?
Yeah, what MP-Ryan said. And your experience with psychology does not match mine (though I had the benefit of one of the better/more rigorous psych departments in the country, and I think it perfectly believable that there's a lot of crap out there you might have run into).

I just don't see the argument that these are in any way one organism. They're connected by a wire, but severing that wire would probably leave them intact and independent were it feasible.

In particular I'd like to take issue with

Quote
If they were neurally seperate, then I would be 100% behind calling this telepathy, I just think calling it so just now is rather sensationalist. If they manage to seperate their brains (Which I imagine will be impossible for the forseeable future), and perform the axon capping you just described, then it would be true telepathy, albeit technologically aided.

this.

The distinction you're making doesn't seem functionally meaningful to me. In one case, they are connected by a neural bridge which transmits information through action potentials. In the other, they're connected by a neural bridge which transmits information through radio waves. Either way information is being passed; the medium just doesn't feel relevant.

I think of it as the difference between wired and wireless networking. Either way you've got two computers; plugging them in with an ethernet cord doesn't make them one.

 

Offline Ravenholme

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Re: Holy ****. True telepathy modeled in living humans?
Yeah, what MP-Ryan said. And your experience with psychology does not match mine (though I had the benefit of one of the better/more rigorous psych departments in the country, and I think it perfectly believable that there's a lot of crap out there you might have run into).

I just don't see the argument that these are in any way one organism. They're connected by a wire, but severing that wire would probably leave them intact and independent were it feasible.

In particular I'd like to take issue with

Quote
If they were neurally seperate, then I would be 100% behind calling this telepathy, I just think calling it so just now is rather sensationalist. If they manage to seperate their brains (Which I imagine will be impossible for the forseeable future), and perform the axon capping you just described, then it would be true telepathy, albeit technologically aided.

this.

The distinction you're making doesn't seem functionally meaningful to me. In one case, they are connected by a neural bridge which transmits information through action potentials. In the other, they're connected by a neural bridge which transmits information through radio waves. Either way information is being passed; the medium just doesn't feel relevant.

I think of it as the difference between wired and wireless networking. Either way you've got two computers; plugging them in with an ethernet cord doesn't make them one.

It's more like a dual core processor with each core controlling a different OS installed on a different hard drive at the same, you're still running them off the same neurological basing, because the Thalamus is so utterly critical to the proper neurological functioning of the brain and body. Calling the Thalamus/Hypothalamus (which they share) a "wire" is VASTLY underestimating what it actually is (More analogous to the motherboard or processor than a wire), and is probably why they have problems like the satiety signals of one girl affecting the other. If I were to call them seperate or to be able to call this Telepathy, there would have to be no neurological "cock ups" like that occurring, especially since that part of the article implies that they have seperate GIs, and therefore one girl could be detrimentally affected by feeling satisfied when she has not eaten but her conjoined twin has. This is not telepathy, because it goes beyond mere sharing of thought (into hormonal stuff) and relies on the fact that their brains are joined, not distinct.

It's exactly what it says on the tin, their brains are physically joined and they share the Thalamus, resulting in a thalamic bridge, which has allowed some crosswiring of their cerebellum and tectums. A step in the right direction for understanding how to create or form telepathic connections, yes, but with a lot of bugs and excess things that do not make it true telepathy in my point.

As stated before, my issue is concerned with biology and neurology of it. I'd also think that the sharing of thought and so on might end up reducing the distinctiveness between the twins, as they're going to be sharing their perspectives, and thoughts on situation, and god knows what their subconsciousnesses are doing whilst they're asleep.

Quote
“It’s like they are one and two people at the same time,” Todd Feinberg, a professor of psychiatry and neurology at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York City, told the Times

This is my stance, except that I lean towards calling them one person given how essential the shared part of the brain is - They've just got two hard drives running two different OSes at the same time.

Again, speaking as a biologist, I want to know what their neuronal structure radiating out of that shared thalamus is like, and how they conduct signals, especially given that they share their visual data. (One might assume they may be capable of sharing others, as the Thalamus routes a LOT of sensory data, but scent and sound would be harder to distinguish as coming from yourself or your conjoined twin, I imagine)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 03:32:14 pm by Ravenholme »
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Offline Mika

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Re: Holy ****. True telepathy modeled in living humans?
Quote
I'm not aware of any studies either, though I'm a little more open-minded than Battuta on the subject of what is essentially extrasensory perception because there are some cases of it in my own family   In one such instance, my grandfather met us at the hospital because he heard an ambulance in his own community (which was not where we lived) and knew something had happened to my mom.  Meanwhile, my mother had just been standing under an old pear tree when it fell on her, breaking her ankle.  My grandfather had no idea we were at my other relatives property picking pears that day, nor any way of knowing Mom had been hurt.  Even the ultra-skeptic scientist in me can't find a credible explanation in confirmation bias for that one (given that my grandfather had never exhibited the same drive-to-the-hospital-on-siren behaviour before or after).  This was not the first nor last instance my grandfather demonstrated strange quasi-senses, though.  Maybe it was coincidence, but it sure was bizarre.

I can understand it when for example bouncers or police feel that somebody shouldn't be let in and later on it is seen that the person was carrying a weapon. This I would understand as not so conscious level detection of some kind of anomaly (visual, aural, smell, attitude) in person's behavior pattern and manifest it as a feeling that something is wrong. I have participated in saving a person's life exactly because of this. But then I was pretty close and was able to see them all the time, and decided to stop for a while.

The incidents that I'm talking about are cases where there was absolutely not any sort of possibility of someone knowing about it at all. From what I understand, that kind of feeling is very sudden and unmistakable, and it doesn't happen often. It is these cases, I can't find a credible explanation from the confirmation bias either. One of my friends says that when she is sad and cries, her childhood friend calls and asks if something is wrong. Not even once has her friend called her when she hasn't been sad (and this has happened reliably over years). The problem? There's a 300 km distance between them...

So I don't know what gives, but confirmation bias as the simplest explanation seems inadequate to me.
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