Author Topic: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!  (Read 8819 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
How am I coming down one one side or the other? I have on numerous occasions said that both sides are so stupid that the best thing to do would be to kick both sides out and give the land to someone more reasonable. :p

Everyone knows that the Palestinian leaders are in general a bunch of wankers. What most people forget is that the Israelis leaders are ALSO a bunch of wankers who have done **** all to improve the situation and instead have done virtually everything in their power to make things worse. So I spend a lot of time pointing that fact out and probably comes across as being pro-Palestinian.

I'm most certainly not.

That's fairly evident, to me at least.

While I respect your assessment of the Six Day War in particular, I also disagree with it; having read a fair bit about the events leading up to it and afterward, I still think the case for a legitimate pre-emptive strike on the part of Israel is stronger than the evidence that points to an unprovoked and unjustifiable attack by Israel on its neighbours.

There's still the part that one always has to come back to when looking at Israel - despite the nonsense its politicians, security forces, and military perpetrate in the name of their country, at the end of the day they still were (and largely are) a country populated by fairly ordinary people trying to carve a place for themselves in the world, while many of their neighbours have (and still do) have the declared objective of their complete national destruction.  That's the recurring theme from 1948 to present:  Israeli's want a peaceful country, and a large number of surrounding Arabs (and as it happens, Persians) want them out of the picture entirely.  Their declared and pursued goal from 1948 to basically 1979 was to destroy Israel by force of arms; whether the Six Day War was also Israel capitalizing on that scenario to their own gain is irrelevant given the historical lead-up and follow-up to the events of 1967.

Given all the history involved, there is more than ample evidence to lead to the pre-emptive war conclusion, provided the reasonably objective person making that claim is aware of the controversies and nuance (which I am).
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
While I don't disagree with your assessment that the surrounding countries have been very antagonistic towards Israel, I do tend to feel that they weren't planning an attack. If they were, they must have been planning to lose it cause they were in no way ready for a war. It's especially worth remembering that the Arab nations had all signed mutual defence treaties with each other. As soon as Egypt was attacked it was pretty much a given conclusion that the others would join in.

As for them remaining hostile to Israel after the 6 Day War, wouldn't you? If it was an unprovoked attack followed by an unjustified landgrab, I mean.
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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
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Israeli's want a peaceful country, and a large number of surrounding Arabs (and as it happens, Persians) want them out of the picture entirely.  Their declared and pursued goal from 1948 to basically 1979 was to destroy Israel by force of arms;

The complete destruction of Israel also results in peace... Apperently the Arab and persian leaders consider Israel a constant threat to their sovereignty and peace or the peace of the people they rather like (the palestinians perhaps?). I do not know what happened exactly before 1948, but it must have something to do with it.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
I do not know what happened exactly before 1948, but it must have something to do with it.

*cackles* How much time do you have?  There are entire academic programs that focus on the history of the Holy Lands and the various quasi-religious conflicts that occur there.

Jews, Muslims, and Christians all claim the area.  Of those three religions, the Jews have the oldest historical claim (as compared with the other two).  Local conflicts, crusades, and a variety of quasi-religious wars were fought for literally thousands of years between those three religions over ownership of the area.  Prior to 1948, the most recent "owners" were Arab Muslims who resided in the British mandate of Palestine.

Following World War 2, the powers-that-be decided that Jews needed a nation-state of their own; they decided to create one in Palestine, with a separate state of Palestine alongside.  Negotiations broke down in the process, Israel declared itself a country and fought a very bloody conflict to make itself into one, the UN recognized it, and Palestine ceased to exist.  The neighboring Arab countries have been pissed off (and reasonably so, since Palestine was also supposed to become a country) ever since, but from 1948 to 1979 they sought a resolution through destruction of Israel rather than negotiation for a two-state solution.  Israel had no such counter-aim against its neighbors (in point of fact, they considered returning several of the areas captured during the Six Day War immediately after and only decided against it out of strategic interest - they provided useful buffer zones against impending future attacks).

While I don't disagree with your assessment that the surrounding countries have been very antagonistic towards Israel, I do tend to feel that they weren't planning an attack. If they were, they must have been planning to lose it cause they were in no way ready for a war. It's especially worth remembering that the Arab nations had all signed mutual defence treaties with each other. As soon as Egypt was attacked it was pretty much a given conclusion that the others would join in.

Depends on your context for the planning of the attack.  Most of the quibbling on the "pre-emptive war" debate is not IF Egypt was preparing to attack Israel, it's the WHEN.  I agree that Egypt was not ready to counter the Israeli thrust, but the main stack of retrospective evidence points not to an immediate (e.g. less than 48 hour strike), but one being planned several weeks/months in advance.

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As for them remaining hostile to Israel after the 6 Day War, wouldn't you? If it was an unprovoked attack followed by an unjustified landgrab, I mean.

Sure - if it was an unjustified landgrab.  On the other hand, knowing Israel had already displayed an impressive ability to kick the **** out of my military, were I in Nasser's shoes I wouldn't have tried launching yet another offensive war six years later, on a national Israeli religious holiday, no less.

No matter how you look at it, you have to take into the previous and future actions of the combatants.  While Israel was without a doubt belligerent, they also maintained a goal of survival.  By contrast, its neighbours had no such defensive aims.  Taken in a context of a week or two in 1967, perhaps the Six Day War really doesn't look pre-emptive.  Taken in context of three decades of conflict, it's pretty difficult to draw any other conclusion.  maybe that's where we differ in our assessments.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 10:17:25 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
they provided useful buffer zones against impending future attacks

Until you start building settlements in them of course......


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Depends on your context for the planning of the attack.  Most of the quibbling on the "pre-emptive war" debate is not IF Egypt was preparing to attack Israel, it's the WHEN.  I agree that Egypt was not ready to counter the Israeli thrust, but the main stack of retrospective evidence points not to an immediate (e.g. less than 48 hour strike), but one being planned several weeks/months in advance.

Which gives plenty of time for diplomacy to have prevented it. I'm not sure what the terms were of the mutual defence pact were but it seems likely that Syria and Jordan might have sat out a war if Egypt were the ones who started it. Basically once we get past the fact that the war wasn't imminent we get into a historical guessing game about what might have happened if Israel had stayed its hand. Maybe the war would have happened, maybe not.

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Sure - if it was an unjustified landgrab.  On the other hand, knowing Israel had already displayed an impressive ability to kick the **** out of my military, were I in Nasser's shoes I wouldn't have tried launching yet another offensive war six years later, on a national Israeli religious holiday, no less.

No matter how you look at it, you have to take into the previous and future actions of the combatants.  While Israel was without a doubt belligerent, they also maintained a goal of survival.  By contrast, its neighbours had no such defensive aims.  Taken in a context of a week or two in 1967, perhaps the Six Day War really doesn't look pre-emptive.  Taken in context of three decades of conflict, it's pretty difficult to draw any other conclusion.  maybe that's where we differ in our assessments.

If you're doing that you have to go back and look at the way Israel's actions would have looked to the states that border them. And that's not going to present the picture of a trustworthy neighbour either. Hell, look at Israel's current rhetoric about Iran's nuclear program and then consider what the surrounding nations are going to have thought of Israel.

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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
Until you start building settlements in them of course......

No one is saying that the settlement-building isn't a douchebag move.

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Which gives plenty of time for diplomacy to have prevented it. I'm not sure what the terms were of the mutual defence pact were but it seems likely that Syria and Jordan might have sat out a war if Egypt were the ones who started it. Basically once we get past the fact that the war wasn't imminent we get into a historical guessing game about what might have happened if Israel had stayed its hand. Maybe the war would have happened, maybe not.

I'm not entirely sure if you can diplomatically resolve a sentiment that "We want to wipe your country from the face of the planet."  But as you said, it's a guessing game.

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If you're doing that you have to go back and look at the way Israel's actions would have looked to the states that border them. And that's not going to present the picture of a trustworthy neighbour either. Hell, look at Israel's current rhetoric about Iran's nuclear program and then consider what the surrounding nations are going to have thought of Israel.

Of course, nowhere am I saying that Israel is the unblemished good guy in all this.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
...aaaaaand, on the subject of douchebag moves that Israel makes, 1100 new houses were just approved in East Jerusalem.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/israel-approves-construction-of-1100-new-houses-in-east-jerusalem/article2181773/
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
Of course, nowhere am I saying that Israel is the unblemished good guy in all this.

I'm not saying you are, but a lot of people seemed to take your original post on the subject that way. I'm merely providing a counter-argument to that.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
I'll add a counter... counter... counter argument.

Pave Holy Land into the Sea, Get World Peace, Eliminate the Righties' wet dream off kicking off the Apocalypse by restoring the Temple Mount, Profit on new shipping route between the Gulf of Agaba and the Med. :P
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
I have on numerous occasions said that both sides are so stupid that the best thing to do would be to kick both sides out and give the land to someone more reasonable. :p

I've already made this argument. :p Unless you're his teenage mermaid daughter, Poseidon is pretty reasonable.
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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
But... who to give it to? The UN?

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
Well that worked really well last time. :p
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
Well that worked really well last time. :p

Well, that made me actually LOL.  =)
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Let the games, diplomacy, and accusations of anti-semitism begin!
Give it to China, save them the trouble... :nervous: ;)