Author Topic: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch  (Read 3711 times)

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Offline Thaeris

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
Now, it may be a tad ignorant to say, because there's always a new innovation to be had...

But you're not getting anything off this rock without some form of propulsive force. And because your space elevator is generally inviable, the fact is that you need flight systems that can boost themselves into space at some level. The question then becomes, "how can one do this more efficiently?" Non-rocket spacelaunch as a thread title be damned. How do you make a better system?

Now, the tube launch isn't a bad concept, giving the flight vehicle that extra initial velocity, thus reducing a good fraction of the fuel wasted in the zero-speed phases of launch. BUT, the infrastructure would be difficult to maintain, and your lauch vehicles would be limited by the configuration of the launch system. In short, it's a short-term, novelty system with fairly limited application.

Actually, if you want to reduce the fuel consumption on the ground from a secondary catapult system, a steam catapult is interesting to at least consider. The technology is also very well vindicated. However, it should also be noted that the USN has been involved with the development of new electromagnetic launch systems, as seen here.

"Lightcraft," very UFO-ey looking ship concepts, using intense heat from a ground source to generate propulsive thrust, are most interesting. They combine my new love of aerospike nozzle shapes with... well, nerdy engineering stuff that I just cant put to words. And the list goes on.

The fact is simple, efficient space flight cannot be achieved until you have a space flight system which can easily tranist from the ground to orbit. That said, I'm quite certain that spaceplanes will be the future for SSTO flight, while true space ships have yet to evolve for deep space flight. I suppose Apollo was the closest we've seen of the latter thus far, if the space stations are not considered.
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
skyramp involves rockets.

No offense intended, but I feel that a 'your mom' joke would fit in perfectly here.

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
ANYWAY...... the title of the thread is non-rocket spacelaunch.

I was this close to abusing mod powers and making a liar out of you here. :p That said, this is HLP. We have heard of on-topic threads, but I don't think anyone's ever actually seen one, much less been in one.

Thaeris: I don't see how the skyramp/tunnel launch infrastructure would be harder to maintain than existing rocket launch infrastructure, especially given that, thanks to mining, we're actually pretty damned good with deep tunnel engineering these days. And while you do have a sort of a point about limited configurations, we're already dealing with that with the limitations imposed by rockets.

Noone's saying the ramp/tunnel is the best possible system, but it's important because it's significantly better than what we have now, imposes no new limitations, and it relies on zero new technology - it could literally be started tomorrow. I don't think there's a single alternative, except more and bigger inefficient rockets, that can claim those key factors.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 12:29:04 am by Black Wolf »
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Offline headdie

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
ANYWAY...... the title of the thread is non-rocket spacelaunch.

I was this close to abusing mod powers and making a liar out of you here. :p That said, this is HLP. We have heard of on-topic threads, but I don't think anyone's ever actually seen one, much less been in one.

Thaeris: I don't see how the skyramp/tunnel launch infrastructure would be harder to maintain than existing rocket launch infrastructure, especially given that, thanks to mining, we're actually pretty damned good with deep tunnel engineering these days. And while you do have a sort of a point about limited configurations, we're already dealing with that with the limitations imposed by rockets.

Noone's saying the ramp/tunnel is the best possible system, but it's important because it's significantly better than what we have now, imposes no new limitations, and it relies on zero new technology - it could literally be started tomorrow. I don't think there's a single alternative, except more and bigger inefficient rockets, that can claim those key factors.

A quick though on size limitation would it be better to use a form of linear induction, allowing for a launcher with no walls or roof that could launch a load of any shape or size so long as the device is able to overcome the weight/drag of the launch vehicle and payload?
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Offline newman

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
I say we break out the jet-powered rocket pants! This excellent and innovative plan only has two minor drawbacks..
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Offline headdie

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
I say we break out the jet-powered rocket pants! This excellent and innovative plan only has two minor drawbacks..
you got enough beans?
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Offline FlamingCobra

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
At current tech, we can't build a Space Elevator.

We can, however, build a Skyramp, which is where I personally think we should be focussing our efforts for Reusable Launch.

Actually, you are incorrect. We have the technological capability to build space elevators on Mars just fine.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
you probably dont need them on mars, just build a liner accelerator up the side of olympus mons. that would probibly be powerful enough and long enough (and the air is thin enough) to make escape velocity. on the other hand the fuel requirements to leave mars are not all that bad, provided you can make enough fuel with the resources on mars.
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Offline Iss Mneur

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch

Thaeris: I don't see how the skyramp/tunnel launch infrastructure would be harder to maintain than existing rocket launch infrastructure, especially given that, thanks to mining, we're actually pretty damned good with deep tunnel engineering these days. And while you do have a sort of a point about limited configurations, we're already dealing with that with the limitations imposed by rockets.

Noone's saying the ramp/tunnel is the best possible system, but it's important because it's significantly better than what we have now, imposes no new limitations, and it relies on zero new technology - it could literally be started tomorrow. I don't think there's a single alternative, except more and bigger inefficient rockets, that can claim those key factors.

A quick though on size limitation would it be better to use a form of linear induction, allowing for a launcher with no walls or roof that could launch a load of any shape or size so long as the device is able to overcome the weight/drag of the launch vehicle and payload?
I don't think so. Most (all?) rockets that we launch right now would fit inside the proposed tunnel, minus the first stage.  The other thing to consider is that the writer of the site that Black Wolf linked actually suggests that because a launch tunnel would be done long before any "space plane" design, it could initially be done with the current Atlas rockets minus the now unnecessary first stage.

Also keep in mind that a launch tunnel would use a sabot which would allow for any shape of craft to be launched so if we develop a better, more efficient shape after some practice at it well it just means that the system will be cheaper.  At that, we already live with the limitations of current launch technology to assemble things like the ISS.  The components of the ISS, if I am not mistaken, are all less than 5 meters in diameter (about the width of an average lane of a road).  We are currently able to construct tunnels almost four times that diameter (apparently the largest tunnel boring machine is 19.25m), so I really doubt having the free space for whatever design is going to be an major issue for the first few tunnel launchers.

To be honest, my primary concern with the launch tunnel is how often the lining is going to need to replaced, which I understood (I can't find reference to it on the wikipedia pages) to be an issue with Project Bablyon and Project HARP, though they were explosive based and not pneumatic.
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Offline Nuke

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
tbms lign the tunnel with prefab concrete sections as they progress. these sections would likely be easy to replace as they wear out. you could probibly manufacture the sections with a thick layer of plastic or other material that protects the concrete from damage. i also dont see why the piston needs to grind against the wall. you could attach guide wheels on a radial suspension around the sides of the piston to eliminate friction leaving a small gap between the piston and the wall. wheels could also be steered for roll control through the tunnel and be equipped with breaks to limit the acceleration to be safe for human launch (if neccisary). then use a heavy rubber (steel reinforced) seal to prevent pressure loss through this gap. id actually avoid a sabot, and integrate the rocket support structure into the piston itself. explosive bolts would then separate the piston from the rocket right after it clears the tube and just before the rocket engines fire. the piston would then fall harmlessly into the ground or into a body of water so that it can be recovered and reused. the piston would be a fairly beefy steel structure and could probably be parachuted down safely.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 12:31:53 am by Nuke »
I can no longer sit back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids.

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Offline newman

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Re: Non-Rocket Spacelaunch
Actually, you are incorrect. We have the technological capability to build space elevators on Mars just fine.

To realistically claim you have the capability of building something somewhere, you first have to demonstrate the ability to actually go to that place. As for Mars, sure in theory we have the technology to reach it with a manned mission. It provides a huge technical and engineering challenge and the mission would be pretty high risk. So we're not doing it.. yet.
In short, my point is, you're claiming that we can build something that's a huge engineering and logistical challenge on it's own, and you say we can do it on a place we can, in theory, barely reach? It's nice to dream every now and again, but it's been my honest observation that your theories need a reality check :)
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