[Nuke]

If you've got an S/PDIF then a digital signal is sent to the amplifier.

Actually, you do raise a good point.

When using analog output, onboard sound card falls far behind a discrete card in number of concurrent sounds produced. In some games those sound quality settings affects exactly that in addition of increasing audio khz. Limits of concurrent sound effects produced can be (or at least should be) found in chipset technical specifications.

While you did mention S/PDIF, do remember that most home computer speaker setups still today use analog inputs. Only the surround sound setups generally use S/PDIF, but not 2.0 and 2.1 which are far more common. However, when using S/PDIF I actually do not know if those concurrent sound limits apply anymore. My knowledge of S/PDIFs and amplifiers is shaky at best because I've never owned a speaker setup with S/PDIF or any other kind of digital input. If when S/PDIF is used, all audio is processed by an amplifier, then I guess the concurrent sound limit doesn't apply. But if the onboard sound chip still does some of the processing, it just may apply. I have no interest in looking into the matter though because I do not own S/PDIF setup.

afaik, audio channels are mixed digitally on the sound card before being pumped out the dacs for pre-amplification and then piped to the outputs (there is probably some analog switching too because port configs vary). when a digital output is used the data which would normally have been fed to the dac is packetized and piped directly out the digital port. at the other end the data is de-packetized at the receiver and its dacs are used. the signal doesn't need any preamp (this is meant to make the signal strong enough to run along a long stretch of cable with minimal attenuation) and can be fed directly into the receiver's amplifier. you do get a quality improvement if you use a high end amplifier with higher end dacs (i think the s/pdif spec is 24 bit resolution, and the dac should also be 24 bit, so higher end == better signal-noise ratio) than your sound card. though this isnt always the case.

all the mixing should be done on the soundcard's electronics. the number of sound channels it can support are directly related to the chip specs. and yes on board probibly supports fewer channels than something high end, but i dont know how many more channels would be supported by my xfi over my onboard sound for example. sound channels ultimately determine game sound performance. like i said earlier it really doesnt matter that much to me.

[Redstreblo]

NOTE: No sound card takes more then a x1 slot. Do NOT waste a x8 on it as that will probably mean your vid card in the x16 will have to now become an x8 as well (unless you have a high end board).

The only slot I have available is the PCIe 8x slot at the bottom of my board - the PCIe 1x slot I have available is blocked by a motherboard cooler - see pics below:



[attachment deleted by a basterd]

[Bob-san]

So slot #1 is blocked--what's in slot #2? Just curious--because putting anything in slot #7 will kick slot #5 into x8 mode.

(I'd personally go out of my way to avoid doing that--to the point of at least considering a <$15 WiFi adapter for slot #1 so that I could use a sound card in slot #2.)

[Klaustrophobia]

i read an article about PCI-e lane width sometime a few months after 2.0 started being used, that basically discovered that GPUs don't get anywhere near the bandwith limit of PCI-E.  according to their graphs, performance didn't see a hit you could call non-trivial until they got to PCI-E 1.0 4x.  running 2.0 8x should be fine, especially considering nuke doesn't have a top-line card IIRC.

[Bob-san]

i read an article about PCI-e lane width sometime a few months after 2.0 started being used, that basically discovered that GPUs don't get anywhere near the bandwith limit of PCI-E.  according to their graphs, performance didn't see a hit you could call non-trivial until they got to PCI-E 1.0 4x.  running 2.0 8x should be fine, especially considering nuke doesn't have a top-line card IIRC.

I'm unfamiliar with what cards he's using. A pair of HD6990's or GTX590's would be more severely affected than lower-end cards. From the past round that I saw (PCI-E 2.0-based), you saw about a 1% hit from x16 to x8 and another 5% from x8 to x4. I've never seen such an assessment for multi-card benchmarks--how CrossFireX or SLI are affected by differing combinations of x16, x8, & x4 slots. It'd be an interesting benchmark to do--fairly cheap too.

[Klaustrophobia]

well unless you use the very highest-end motherboards, crossfire/SLI already knock you down to 8x.  sometimes you see a 16x/4x setup. 

[Redstreblo]

So slot #1 is blocked--what's in slot #2? Just curious--because putting anything in slot #7 will kick slot #5 into x8 mode.

(I'd personally go out of my way to avoid doing that--to the point of at least considering a <$15 WiFi adapter for slot #1 so that I could use a sound card in slot #2.)

i read an article about PCI-e lane width sometime a few months after 2.0 started being used, that basically discovered that GPUs don't get anywhere near the bandwith limit of PCI-E.  according to their graphs, performance didn't see a hit you could call non-trivial until they got to PCI-E 1.0 4x.  running 2.0 8x should be fine, especially considering nuke doesn't have a top-line card IIRC.

I'm unfamiliar with what cards he's using. A pair of HD6990's or GTX590's would be more severely affected than lower-end cards. From the past round that I saw (PCI-E 2.0-based), you saw about a 1% hit from x16 to x8 and another 5% from x8 to x4. I've never seen such an assessment for multi-card benchmarks--how CrossFireX or SLI are affected by differing combinations of x16, x8, & x4 slots. It'd be an interesting benchmark to do--fairly cheap too.

x1 slot number 2 has my WiFi adapter in it, and it doesn't fit in x1 slot number 1. (If anybody knows of a WiFi card that fits in a short x1 slot that has wireless N capabilities do tell. - I am currently using "D-Link DWA-556 Xtreme N PCIe Desktop Adapter"

I am using 2 GTX 560 Ti graphics cards in SLI btw bob-san. I also heard that having a graphics card in an 8x slot vs a 16x slot doesn't affect performance all that much, I'd be interested in hearing if that is true.

EDIT: Because it is getting relevant my board is GIGABYTE GA-X58A-UD3R, i7 960 (@3.2GHz) (Cooler Master V8 Cooler), 12GB RAM (1333Mhz), 2 GTX 560 Ti SLI, Corsair AX1200 Power supply and boot drive is Corsair Force 3 120 GB SSD

[KyadCK]

Right now you have x16/x16. When you add the sound card to the last pci-e slot, it'll become x16/x8. That shouldn't impact performance noticeably. Again, if you buy SoundBlaster, skip the Fatal1ty crap and just get the normal version of the X-Fi Titanium or Recon3D. All Fatal1ty is is a plastic cover and it being 'certified' by a popular gamer.

As for those who say 'its useless having better then x8/x8' cry me a river. A single card, no, x8 vs x16 isnt that big a hit till you get into the high end. But it does have an impact on SLI/Crossfire. It's performance that you don't have to lose in some cases. Here though, its inevitable.

From the past round that I saw (PCI-E 2.0-based), you saw about a 1% hit from x16 to x8 and another 5% from x8 to x4.

Is just flat wrong. x4 is a HUGE impact on today's cards. x8 is still a fair impact on higher end cards. Theres a reason they're getting PCI-e 3.0 out the door; 2.0 x8 isn't cutting it any more and MB manufacturers really don't want to lay in the extra lanes.

I would like to see where logic in cutting the data transfer rate the first time is a 1% hit, and then cutting it in half again is only 5%... when did -50% bandwith mean only -5% performance when the first cut is already eating into the cards ability?

running 2.0 8x should be fine, especially considering nuke doesn't have a top-line card IIRC.

This isn't for Nuke 

[Nuke]

i actually do have a mini pci-e wifi card i salvaged from an old laptop, turns out they sell an adapter card for 8 bucks. of course for 2 bucks more you can get a real pcie card. so much for putting salvaged junk into my computer.

running 2.0 8x should be fine, especially considering nuke doesn't have a top-line card IIRC.

This isn't for Nuke 

i think everyone is confused because we both have a similar problem more or less. i cant use my sound card cause its pci, but that slot is taken up by a pci wifi card. my solution is obvious, get a pci-e network card. but im a cheap bastard and can live with onboard audio.

If anybody knows of a WiFi card that fits in a short x1 slot that has wireless N capabilities do tell.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833320074
there are cheaper ones if you google around for it.

[pecenipicek]

NOTE: No sound card takes more then a x1 slot. Do NOT waste a x8 on it as that will probably mean your vid card in the x16 will have to now become an x8 as well (unless you have a high end board).

The only slot I have available is the PCIe 8x slot at the bottom of my board - the PCIe 1x slot I have available is blocked by a motherboard cooler - see pics below:

trust gigabyte to **** up with atrocious southbridge coolers. my old ma-78g-ds3h has the soutbridge smack dab above the GPU chip, also known as the hottest spot on the "underside" of the gpu. and the ****ty cooler cant remove the heat if you blast it with compressed air. -.- raaaargh!

[Redstreblo]

If anybody knows of a WiFi card that fits in a short x1 slot that has wireless N capabilities do tell.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833320074
there are cheaper ones if you google around for it.

Excellent, now I will buy a new WiFi card put that in PCIe 1x slot number one and put the sound card in PCIe 1x slot number 2 on my motherboard. Now I see a lot of votes for Asus D2X and a lot of people to go for the X-Fi cards (not the fatal1ty ones) - they are the exact same cards, just with no cover on them?

[Bob-san]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833180078

I'm looking at that one myself--my current wireless card is PCI and I'm in a similar boat--my Sabertooth X58's NB heatsink may block a longer PCI-E x1 card.

I'm still recommending the DX and a desk headphone amplifier (if you have half-decent cans).

[Klaustrophobia]

If anybody knows of a WiFi card that fits in a short x1 slot that has wireless N capabilities do tell.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833320074
there are cheaper ones if you google around for it.

Excellent, now I will buy a new WiFi card put that in PCIe 1x slot number one and put the sound card in PCIe 1x slot number 2 on my motherboard. Now I see a lot of votes for Asus D2X and a lot of people to go for the X-Fi cards (not the fatal1ty ones) - they are the exact same cards, just with no cover on them?

they might have an extra gimmick or two (like onboard RAM for supposedly increased gaming performance), but on the whole yes.  same chipset and an endorsement.

[KyadCK]

running 2.0 8x should be fine, especially considering nuke doesn't have a top-line card IIRC.

This isn't for Nuke 

i think everyone is confused because we both have a similar problem more or less. i cant use my sound card cause its pci, but that slot is taken up by a pci wifi card. my solution is obvious, get a pci-e network card. but im a cheap bastard and can live with onboard audio.

Oh, ya that does kinda suck. On the other hand, this is what you get for going mini-ATX 

trust gigabyte to **** up with atrocious southbridge coolers. my old ma-78g-ds3h has the soutbridge smack dab above the GPU chip, also known as the hottest spot on the "underside" of the gpu. and the ****ty cooler cant remove the heat if you blast it with compressed air. -.- raaaargh!

Northbridge in this case.  Both of mine (990FXA-UD3 and 890GPA-UD3H) were just out of the way for that top x1. I'm also pretty sure you're supposed to blast it with the stuff that comes out when you hold it upsidedown, not the air itself. It works a bit better considering it freezes that target in question.

Now I see a lot of votes for Asus D2X and a lot of people to go for the X-Fi cards (not the fatal1ty ones) - they are the exact same cards, just with no cover on them?

Well, the Fatal1ty ones also cost more. Use that money on the small x1 wireless card? Assuming you don't go Xonar that is which is a very viable choice. I'm just saying avoid the Fatal1ty brand.

[Nuke]

running 2.0 8x should be fine, especially considering nuke doesn't have a top-line card IIRC.

This isn't for Nuke 

i think everyone is confused because we both have a similar problem more or less. i cant use my sound card cause its pci, but that slot is taken up by a pci wifi card. my solution is obvious, get a pci-e network card. but im a cheap bastard and can live with onboard audio.

Oh, ya that does kinda suck. On the other hand, this is what you get for going mini-ATX 

this may be a shock to you but i prefer smaller cases for a number of reasons.

1. my last computer was way too big, you couldnt move it without breaking it. i did not want a repeat of that situation.
2. if i ever move, i dont want it to cost a fortune to ship the thing.
3. small cases have better airflow characteristics
4. lack of space. its now possible to get the damn thing off the floor so it collects less dust.

only time microatx really sucks is when your case manufacturer deviates from spec.

[KyadCK]

running 2.0 8x should be fine, especially considering nuke doesn't have a top-line card IIRC.

This isn't for Nuke 

i think everyone is confused because we both have a similar problem more or less. i cant use my sound card cause its pci, but that slot is taken up by a pci wifi card. my solution is obvious, get a pci-e network card. but im a cheap bastard and can live with onboard audio.

Oh, ya that does kinda suck. On the other hand, this is what you get for going mini-ATX 

this may be a shock to you but i prefer smaller cases for a number of reasons.

1. my last computer was way too big, you couldnt move it without breaking it. i did not want a repeat of that situation.
2. if i ever move, i dont want it to cost a fortune to ship the thing.
3. small cases have better airflow characteristics
4. lack of space. its now possible to get the damn thing off the floor so it collects less dust.

only time microatx really sucks is when your case manufacturer deviates from spec.

And the lack of sockets on the board (what I was aiming at), but yes I get the logic behind it. I'll still argue that smaller cases have crap cooling capabilities (even with the theoretical better airflow) for a number of reasons though. The idea for why they should be better makes sense, but they arent. There's also no room for any good aftermarket air cooler and the odds of even fitting an H50 are small, but that's a different needs thing.

And if I were to move, theres no chance in hell I'd be shipping a computer... Thats begging for trouble.

[Bob-san]

NOTE: No sound card takes more then a x1 slot. Do NOT waste a x8 on it as that will probably mean your vid card in the x16 will have to now become an x8 as well (unless you have a high end board).

The only slot I have available is the PCIe 8x slot at the bottom of my board - the PCIe 1x slot I have available is blocked by a motherboard cooler - see pics below:

trust gigabyte to **** up with atrocious southbridge coolers. my old ma-78g-ds3h has the soutbridge smack dab above the GPU chip, also known as the hottest spot on the "underside" of the gpu. and the ****ty cooler cant remove the heat if you blast it with compressed air. -.- raaaargh!

That's actually the Northbridge heatsink. I agree that it can be a PITA but you make a decision on what board you buy based on your intended uses.

Anyways, same thing goes with your chassis. I like my Lian-Li K58W but I think it's a bit too big, actually. I should have bought a K56W. So long as your chassis has a 120mm fan on the back, you can probably fit a small water-cooling kit. If you don't have clearance, you can probably have the fan pull air instead and use the additional height to clear the expansion slots.

[Nuke]

And if I were to move, theres no chance in hell I'd be shipping a computer... Thats begging for trouble.

not if you pack it well and get the shipping insurance. last time they broke my rig they ended up buying me a whole new set of guts. of course i kept the drives with me so i didnt loose any data.

[Grizzly]

If you've got an S/PDIF then a digital signal is sent to the amplifier.

Actually, you do raise a good point.

When using analog output, onboard sound card falls far behind a discrete card in number of concurrent sounds produced. In some games those sound quality settings affects exactly that in addition of increasing audio khz. Limits of concurrent sound effects produced can be (or at least should be) found in chipset technical specifications.

While you did mention S/PDIF, do remember that most home computer speaker setups still today use analog inputs. Only the surround sound setups generally use S/PDIF, but not 2.0 and 2.1 which are far more common. However, when using S/PDIF I actually do not know if those concurrent sound limits apply anymore. My knowledge of S/PDIFs and amplifiers is shaky at best because I've never owned a speaker setup with S/PDIF or any other kind of digital input. If when S/PDIF is used, all audio is processed by an amplifier, then I guess the concurrent sound limit doesn't apply. But if the onboard sound chip still does some of the processing, it just may apply. I have no interest in looking into the matter though because I do not own S/PDIF setup.

afaik, audio channels are mixed digitally on the sound card before being pumped out the dacs for pre-amplification and then piped to the outputs (there is probably some analog switching too because port configs vary). when a digital output is used the data which would normally have been fed to the dac is packetized and piped directly out the digital port. at the other end the data is de-packetized at the receiver and its dacs are used. the signal doesn't need any preamp (this is meant to make the signal strong enough to run along a long stretch of cable with minimal attenuation) and can be fed directly into the receiver's amplifier. you do get a quality improvement if you use a high end amplifier with higher end dacs (i think the s/pdif spec is 24 bit resolution, and the dac should also be 24 bit, so higher end == better signal-noise ratio) than your sound card. though this isnt always the case.

all the mixing should be done on the soundcard's electronics. the number of sound channels it can support are directly related to the chip specs. and yes on board probibly supports fewer channels than something high end, but i dont know how many more channels would be supported by my xfi over my onboard sound for example. sound channels ultimately determine game sound performance. like i said earlier it really doesnt matter that much to me.

For reference: In Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead, you can set your audio channels. When using any value over 32 channels using my Realtek soundcard, any A-10 rocket barrage would crash my PC (whilst with 32 channels the sounds of my jet would cut off...) . My Soundblaster X-Fi is able to handle 128 channels.

[Nuke]

but 32 channels is more kvlt