[Unknown Target]

Suppose this has anything to do with the US recently putting the Vatican to it's money-laundering concerns list?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/08/us-vatican-laundering-idUSBRE82710J20120308

[Flipside]

I think it's probably more to do with the fact that the Vatican is an archaic institution that has failed to realize that the very core of humanity is change and adaption, and that clinging onto the 'old ways' is not only impossible, but certainly a case of looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses. About 100 years ago, beating your wife and children with a large wooden paddle was 'discipline', rather than assault. The world changes, and our perception of 'right' and 'wrong' is permanently changing with it, the whole idea of there being 'fixed' positions of right and wrong is a fallacy in the first place.

Basically, they realize that the only way to cling to power is to play on the lizard brain fears of people, because they promote a reaction without requiring input from the consciousness.

[stinkyFeet]

I think it's probably more to do with the fact that the Vatican is an archaic institution that has failed to realize that the very core of humanity is change and adaption, and that clinging onto the 'old ways' is not only impossible, but certainly a case of looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses. About 100 years ago, beating your wife and children with a large wooden paddle was 'discipline', rather than assault. The world changes, and our perception of 'right' and 'wrong' is permanently changing with it, the whole idea of there being 'fixed' positions of right and wrong is a fallacy in the first place.

That's actually a really good point against anyone who would stand by an issue because of what's in the bible, Koran, ect.

Thanks for that.

[FireSpawn]

I just reread the title of this thread and now I can't get the image of Vader in the Popemobile out of my head. 

 

[Nuke]

I'm Catholic, and I strongly disagree with this sentiment, because I fail to see how a civil definition of marriage affects the Catholic sacrament of matrimony either way.  Protip: it doesn't.

I actually agree with the church on this one in that government has no right to demand that the church allow same sex marriage.  The government offers a civil alternative meaning its a weak human rights argument vs the right of a recognised religion to practice their traditions and religious rights win that one for me.

this is an interesting argument, and for it to be valid in my book then it would have to go both ways. suppose there is a recognized religion who's tenants allow for gay marriage, then does the government have any rights to deny same sex marriage to members of that religion? this could not happen if the government gave 'right of a recognized religion to practice their traditions and religious rights'. im all for the idea that government has no buisness to dictate marriage at all, and that all marriages would be defined exclusively by the church to which the couple belongs. a gay couple wishing to get married would need to find a religious organization which would recognize their marriage.

really the biggest issue i have with gay marriage is that it is an issue at all. there are more important issues to address. its sad that politicians on both side spend so much time flipflopping the marriage laws when we have an entire world left to rape, pilliage, conquer and nuke.

[headdie]

I'm Catholic, and I strongly disagree with this sentiment, because I fail to see how a civil definition of marriage affects the Catholic sacrament of matrimony either way.  Protip: it doesn't.

I actually agree with the church on this one in that government has no right to demand that the church allow same sex marriage.  The government offers a civil alternative meaning its a weak human rights argument vs the right of a recognised religion to practice their traditions and religious rights win that one for me.

this is an interesting argument, and for it to be valid in my book then it would have to go both ways. suppose there is a recognized religion who's tenants allow for gay marriage, then does the government have any rights to deny same sex marriage to members of that religion? this could not happen if the government gave 'right of a recognized religion to practice their traditions and religious rights'.

What you would have is suppose is a marriage recognised in religion but not law.  On the other hand its an interesting scenario where a nation is intolerant to the practices of a religion but still recognises it, after all the national idea of morality is in the vast majority of cases dictated or at least informed by the majority religion or the religion of the ruling person(s) at the time the law was passed.  and while this is braking down in countries like the UK where the link between religion and the government is separating, the law is still founded on religious teachings.

[Stealth]

Generalization. I know plenty of Catholics who dislike the pope and its institution and think he is crazy. In fact most of the Catholics I know listen to what they think is right before listening to what the pope thinks is right. I also know plenty of Catholics who think gay's should be able to marry whomever they want. I also know some who think gay marriage should be illegal.

If there are "Cathloics" that hate the pope and its institution, then by definition they aren't Catholic are they

[NGTM-1R]

If there are "Cathloics" that hate the pope and its institution, then by definition they aren't Catholic are they

The layity has regarded the whole contraceptives thing as farcical pretty much since it happened. There are a lot of things that the lay Church doesn't agree with that the clerical Church does.

And the only permanent way out is excommunication, genius. Otherwise you can wander around claiming to be a member in good standing and nobody can say boo.

Facinating, thank you!

Also, the infallibility thing has actually been invoked...perhaps twice, perhaps once, depending on who you ask. None of which are actually relevant to the current issues.