Author Topic: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)  (Read 3038 times)

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Offline MP-Ryan

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I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
I just really want to comment on Tenebra.

This is part 1 of my commentary, part 2 will follow when I actually finish the thing.  I just want to get these comments out while I have a chance.  See posts below.
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Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
Part 1:  First impressions.

First off, before Tenebra's release the last time I opened FSO was for WiH Acts1/2 and Vassago's Dirge.  So it's been a long while.  I had to reconfigure my installation, setup the command lines again, and build a whole new pilot file with my keys rebound (because I play with a mouse and despise the defaults).  That took some doing, but its relevant to what I'm going to say.  For reference, I'm playing on medium difficulty.

Without a doubt, this campaign has the highest difficulty spike of any FSO mod I've played yet.  It didn't help that I was rusty, but the new gameplay mechanics weren't so much introduced as thrown in the player's lap with a "here, you'll figure it out eventually."  Now, I like games where you have to learn new skills over time, but some introduction would be nice.  I think the problem here is the development team played these missions so many times they didn't ever really get a feel for what it would be like for a player approaching them for the first time.  Replaying a mission once or twice after your first run through it is fairly common and expected.  Replaying a mission 5 or 6 or 7 times because it took you 3 tries to even figure out what was going on in the first place is highly frustrating.  FSO's lack of a quicksave makes this doubly irritating as a minor mistake late in a mission after doing everything else flawlessly leads to mission failed.  When you see that for the 6th time, it doesn't make you want to do better, it makes you want to quit.  And while I could have switched to very easy, the mission failed I was getting wasn't necessarily because I was getting blown to pieces, so it wouldn't have really helped.  I've put this point first because it's my greatest actual criticism and it's all better from here.

Next:  briefings.  These tie into difficulty because the briefings were - generally speaking - clear as mud.  It's a good thing you had the sense to summarize them all on the last pane, because that's the only place I got a real sense of what I was going to be doing in the mission.  Which brings me to the next point...

...the dreamscape.  What a fantastic idea and what a wasted opportunity.  I really enjoyed the concept, the map, the conversations, but every single time I got out of the dreamscape and went into one of the infernal actual mission briefings I thought:  why the hell didn't they model this complex mission briefing in the dreamscape?!  Part of the difficulty was the need to replay the mission multiple times to get a feel for the layout of the complexity of the engagement zone (more on this later), and the dreamscape would have been the perfect place to show the superior tactical origins of the Fedayeen by modelling those engagements zones in the dreamscape and giving you the briefing there.  Yes, it would have been a lot of work but the payoff would have been pretty frickin' awesome.  So yes, while I thought the dreamscape was a fantastic addition to the campaign, I also thought it was underutilized, especially given how dense the mission briefings were.

Now, onto the mission design.  I have to hand it to you folks, these missions are unique in FreeSpace because of their complexity, the complexity of the layout, and the immersiveness of the environments.  They were also OVERWHELMING, which is why I really wish you had used the dreamscape to better potential, because it would have let us appreciate the tactical puzzle of each mission without replaying it half-a-dozen times (frustration factor).  The missions were extremely well done, if difficult, but once you got the feel for being an operator instead of just a combat pilot, they get very interesting indeed.  The only problem is that it can be difficult to really explore your various options in the time sequences allotted.  I realize you don't want to hand-hold the player and reveal everything, but you've strayed too far into "figure it out!" mode.  Again, another reason why the dreamscape would have been such an ideal location for the briefings to occur.

Last:  keybinds.  For those of us with non-standard layouts and not all the keys bound, it is very irritating having to revert to a default layout and load the mission just to figure out what key I should be binding.  I would strongly suggest you either list the actual key commands we need in the mission briefing, or an "ensure these commands are bound before playing" in the readme/install instructions.  Also, instructions like "Alt-J To Jump" or "Alt-X" to change missiles are not helpful for rebound keys, unless you tell players to rebind them to certain commands.  It's a common annoyance of mine in some FSO mods that designers assume default binds when there are ways around it.

All in all I think Tenebra is a monumental achievement in modding for FSO, but I do feel like there were some missed opportunities here and the difficulty curve made it unnecessarily frustrating.  The story and gameplay complexity is second to none, however, and it brings new innovation and life to a canonical Freespace storyline.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:50:28 am by MP-Ryan »
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
Part 2:  Mission reviews. (reserved)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:51:06 am by MP-Ryan »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
I think the problem here is the development team played these missions so many times they didn't ever really get a feel for what it would be like for a player approaching them for the first time.

I think this assumption is a  little naive - anyone with the slightest iota of design experience is going to think about this 24/7. We have a pretty comprehensive beta team and the first run difficulty spike was a major focus. It may be that the team itself has become too good, but it's not a factor we ever stopped thinking about.

It was also really tricky because it hasn't been an issue for every player. Right now our post-release feedback, as unscientific as it has, has between a third to a half of players feeling overwhelmed at some point. That's a lot, but it's not so many that we could guarantee our beta team would have someone who felt that way. Fury would probably have been a good example of someone who'd have banged on that angle, but he left the team a while ago.  :(

Quote
...the dreamscape.  What a fantastic idea and what a wasted opportunity.  I really enjoyed the concept, the map, the conversations, but every single time I got out of the dreamscape and went into one of the infernal actual mission briefings I thought:  why the hell didn't they model this complex mission briefing in the dreamscape?!

This feature was in and prototyped but cut for time.

Quote
Last:  keybinds.  For those of us with non-standard layouts and not all the keys bound, it is very irritating having to revert to a default layout and load the mission just to figure out what key I should be binding.  I would strongly suggest you either list the actual key commands we need in the mission briefing, or an "ensure these commands are bound before playing" in the readme/install instructions.  Also, instructions like "Alt-J To Jump" or "Alt-X" to change missiles are not helpful for rebound keys, unless you tell players to rebind them to certain commands.  It's a common annoyance of mine in some FSO mods that designers assume default binds when there are ways around it.

Your frustrations might or might not be justified here. Generally every time a keybind goes in it's tagged in such a way that it will dynamically rebind to match the player's current setup. It's possible that didn't happen here or that it broke somehow. Was that your experience?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 11:56:41 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
This feature was in and prototyped but cut for time.

Just my $0.02, but in the future that might be something worth spending the time on.

Quote
Your frustrations might or might not be justified here. Generally every time a keybind goes in it's tagged in such a way that it will dynamically rebind to match the player's current setup. It's possible that didn't happen here or that it broke somehow. Was that your experience?

While in the convoy destruction and assassination missions, I just got the "None" key (which is an engine limitation because it can't announce what I needed to bind, hence my suggestion of a warning in the install instructions), during the Custos mission I saw ALT-J to jump (my jump is bound to Enter) and Alt-X to change missile type (despite the zoom to observer being bound  to ,).  So if those particular messages were supposed to by dynamic, they broke.

Y'know, FSO desperately needs a feature that allows keybinds to be saved to a file independent of the pilot file.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
This feature was in and prototyped but cut for time.

Just my $0.02, but in the future that might be something worth spending the time on.

When the tradeoff is the risk of never making release...

It's not like we were like 'oh we don't need that, let's cut it'. These things get discussed and weighed.

 

Offline Qent

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
the new gameplay mechanics weren't so much introduced as thrown in the player's lap with a "here, you'll figure it out eventually."

That's interesting. I felt like Act 3 (the gameplay) did hold your hand a lot, as if it's a tutorial for the acts to come. Like, "Learn this stuff now, because you'll have to do it while dogfighting next time."

 
Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
the new gameplay mechanics weren't so much introduced as thrown in the player's lap with a "here, you'll figure it out eventually."

That's interesting. I felt like Act 3 (the gameplay) did hold your hand a lot, as if it's a tutorial for the acts to come. Like, "Learn this stuff now, because you'll have to do it while dogfighting next time."
I found Tenebra to be quite a bit easier than the first two acts. Most missions took me one or two tries, one (One Future) took four (would have taken two, but I accidentally blew up my own transport while my guns were set to track ;p). I can beat Her Finest Hour pretty easily on Insane with a sound strategy. That's never going to happen with me and Delenda Est.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
You can *probably* complete Tenebra without being shot at once (okay, ignoring of One Future), if you play things carefully. It's actually not that hard - it's not about Piloting skill so much as, well, figuring out what you were supposed to do from the briefing, and in-mission prompts, which may take one or two tries., but were generally intuitive.
(´・ω・`)
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
Yeah, this is the funny thing. Not only do people disagree on whether it was hard, they disagree on which bits were hard!

e: not actually 'funny' pretty normal and expected, but still
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 02:04:39 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Fury

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
Fury would probably have been a good example of someone who'd have banged on that angle, but he left the team a while ago.  :(
Well, I did try. But someone got highly defensive when I did, so I gave up on it.

 

Offline Crybertrance

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
the new gameplay mechanics weren't so much introduced as thrown in the player's lap with a "here, you'll figure it out eventually."

That's interesting. I felt like Act 3 (the gameplay) did hold your hand a lot, as if it's a tutorial for the acts to come. Like, "Learn this stuff now, because you'll have to do it while dogfighting next time."

I felt the same...As Act 3 was originally intended to be released alongside Acts 4 & 5, it would be logical to have Act 3 (where the player flies stealth, and isn't gunned down before he figures out what to do) as a tutorial for features to come, where you'd have to apply the same mechanics while actively engaging (and being engaged by) hostile forces.

Also, I don't know about you guys, but even though I felt overwhelmed by the stuff you had to do in some most missions; I never in the least felt frustrated! I just tried different approaches, tactics, etc...In-fact, the more I failed a particular mission, the more I wanted to play it! Something I've never experienced before in any FSO mission (Even WiH 1) But maybe that's just me  :warp:
<21:08:30>   Hartzaden fires a slammer at Cybertrance
<21:09:13>   Crybertrance pops flares, but wonders how Hartzaden acquired aspect lock on a stealth fighter... :\
<21:11:58>   *** The_E joined #bp [email protected]
21:11:58   +++ ChanServ has given op to The_E
<21:12:58>   Hartzaden continues to paint crybertrance and feeding the info to a wing of gunships
<21:14:07>   Crybertrance sends emergency "IM GETING MY ASS KICKED HERE!!!!eleventy NEED HELPZZZZ" to 3rd fleet command
<21:14:50>   Hartzaden jamms the transmission.
<21:14:51>   The_E explodes the sun

 

Offline CommanderDJ

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
Also, I don't know about you guys, but even though I felt overwhelmed by the stuff you had to do in some most missions; I never in the least felt frustrated! I just tried different approaches, tactics, etc...In-fact, the more I failed a particular mission, the more I wanted to play it! Something I've never experienced before in any FSO mission (Even WiH 1) But maybe that's just me  :warp:

I agree with you wholeheartedly on that paragraph. It was overwhelming, yes, and each mission took me a few restarts, but each time I died I simply said "Alright, now I know that doesn't work, let's try again." I think I only got frustrated in the first mission because I kept blowing myself up by staying too close to the tankers/miners when they exploded (that is the first mission, right?  :nervous:)
[16:57] <CommanderDJ> What prompted the decision to split WiH into acts?
[16:58] <battuta> it was long, we wanted to release something
[16:58] <battuta> it felt good to have a target to hit
[17:00] <RangerKarl> not sure if talking about strike mission, or jerking off
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> WUT
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> hahahahaha
[17:00] <battuta> hahahaha
[17:00] <RangerKarl> same thing really, if you think about it

 
Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
My take on it was a fair difficulty spike, but realistically to pas AoA and WiH Act 1 and 2, you needed to have a bit of skill already. I loved the challenge, although HFH was pretty overwhelming at first. May have been because I jumped in and saw the Serenity being torn to pieces, then Calder demand I save it with 7 % life left.

Once things like queueing artillery orders were discovered it became a breeze. I can't quite remember, but were the orders being queued mentioned in the briefing? May be worth chucking that in in a future patch (if any are planned) as it was completely accidental that I discovered it...

  

Offline Crybertrance

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Re: I normally don't do this sort of thing, but (Tenebra Review)
Once things like queueing artillery orders were discovered it became a breeze. I can't quite remember, but were the orders being queued mentioned in the briefing? May be worth chucking that in in a future patch (if any are planned) as it was completely accidental that I discovered it...

No, queueing artillery targets was not mentioned anywhere...It is my suggestion to add it to the briefing (one line like, "Hey bro, you can queue the Artillery too you know. Pretty cool isn't it?" would suffice!)
<21:08:30>   Hartzaden fires a slammer at Cybertrance
<21:09:13>   Crybertrance pops flares, but wonders how Hartzaden acquired aspect lock on a stealth fighter... :\
<21:11:58>   *** The_E joined #bp [email protected]
21:11:58   +++ ChanServ has given op to The_E
<21:12:58>   Hartzaden continues to paint crybertrance and feeding the info to a wing of gunships
<21:14:07>   Crybertrance sends emergency "IM GETING MY ASS KICKED HERE!!!!eleventy NEED HELPZZZZ" to 3rd fleet command
<21:14:50>   Hartzaden jamms the transmission.
<21:14:51>   The_E explodes the sun