[Aesaar]

There's plenty wrong with that statement.  The vast majority of the Middle-East's problems are political, and they wouldn't just disappear if everyone suddenly accepted that God wasn't real.  Religion is used by relatively intelligent people to get more simple-minded or desperate people to do as they say.   It's a tool, not the problem itself.

Hell, you only need to look at the Internet to see that extremism and douchebaggery doesn't need religion to exist.

I totally disagree with this sentiment. I cannot see something like ISIS existing without divine justification. People will cling to every single difference between "tribes" to justify any atrocity, but religion is a real show stopper here. If one had a magic wand and made it so that religion suddenly disappeared from that land, I ****ing would in a heartbeat, I think that would be the single greatest "divine intervention" that could happen there. The reason why this is silly is different. It's not atheism that is going to make this mess disappear, it's the exact other way, this mess will have to sort itself out through decades and then atheism will be able to prosper.

Except that things like ISIS have happened before without religious motivation.  Probably the single best example I can think of is the Russian revolution and civil war.  The way ISIS is fighting its war is very similar to the way the Bolsheviks fought theirs.  The biggest difference is that Lenin was really smart strategically, and al-Baghdadi... isn't.

ISIS is nothing new.

[Lorric]

...nothing abnormal or extreme. There is a picture of a gun.

:|
...you sure about that first part?

Are you talking about the gun? We were looking at the atheist stuff. But even so, that's American gun culture. Perfectly normal in America, though it still creeps me out even though I've become more desensitised to it since I come from a culture which basically wants nothing to do with guns and wholeheartedly agree with that. It's creepy to me to see a culture regard guns with fondness. As something to show off and be proud of.

[666maslo666]

...nothing abnormal or extreme. There is a picture of a gun.

:|
...you sure about that first part?

A picture of a gun, in a society with legal and socially accepted gun ownership, and it was a neutral picture of a gun being weighted, with no threatening message. So yeah, nothing abnormal or extreme.

[666maslo666]

Except that things like ISIS have happened before without religious motivation.  Probably the single best example I can think of is the Russian revolution and civil war.  The way ISIS is fighting its war is very similar to the way the Bolsheviks fought theirs.  The biggest difference is that Lenin was really smart strategically, and al-Baghdadi... isn't.

ISIS is nothing new.

Ideologies and beliefs are important. Be it communism or islam. Sometimes they are merely justifications for violence that would happen anyway, but sometimes they are the direct root cause of it. I disagree with this notion that somehow it is all political and religion has nothing to do with it.

If the middle east magically turned atheist by tomorrow, it would not be perfect but there would be a significant reduction in violence. For a region plagued by religious extremism, that much is clear.

[Luis Dias]

Except that things like ISIS have happened before without religious motivation.  Probably the single best example I can think of is the Russian revolution and civil war.  The way ISIS is fighting its war is very similar to the way the Bolsheviks fought theirs.  The biggest difference is that Lenin was really smart strategically, and al-Baghdadi... isn't.

ISIS is nothing new.

ISIS is "nothing new", but so isn't religion... No one is claiming that violence would suddenly disappear if religion disappeared. At least in this board. If your peeve is about saying that throwing out religion would not solve everything, well then I'll be by your side absolutely. However, to ignore the role of Wahhabism, its version that established current Saudi Arabia rule, its export to the rest of the Middle East, like a plague every time any region of it is in anarchic trouble. This radicalization is not new, but it has been steadily growing through the last 100 years in that area and is now being able to even start to create their own "state".

I don't think bolshevik communism as an ideology was that good for the russians, nor do I think that Wahabbism as understood by ISIS is going to be good for that ME region.

[Aesaar]

My point is that if you removed religion completely and everyone in the Middle-East was suddenly an atheist, you might get a temporary peace.  Until some other smart, educated person realizes that all these desperate people with nothing to lose and looking for revenge or a purpose or whatever presents a ripe opportunity to expand his power and finds an ideology that'll gain traction.  In the Middle-East right now, that's radical Islam.  In Russia, it was Marxism.  In a Middle-East without religion?  I don't know, but someone would find something. 

Radical Islam isn't the cause of the Middle-East going to ****, it's a result of it.

Poor people with nothing to lose are easily swayed by someone who can convince them he can lead them to something better.  You don't need divine justification for that.  Like I said, the Bolsheviks during the Russian Civil War are a perfect example of a similarly brutal secular movement (and it wasn't limited to just the Bolsheviks).

I don't think bolshevik communism as an ideology was that good for the russians, nor do I think that Wahabbism as understood by ISIS is going to be good for that ME region.

I have no idea why you think that's what I'm saying.  I made no moral judgments here.

[Luis Dias]

I didn't.

[FlamingCobra]

Holy **** this is practically in my back yard.

[Bobboau]

trying to separate Islam from politics in the mideast is like trying to separate wetness from water.

[Dragon]

Or Christianity from politics in the US (and in Poland, too), for that matter. That said, life in the Middle East sucks unless you're an oil sheik. That always leads to various nuts coming out of the woodwork and telling people that it would not suck, if it wasn't for something they just happen to detest. Extremism leads to immediate and tangible change (not necessarily for the better), so people tend to flock to such nuts, especially if their experiences with "moderates" were along the lines of "everything stays the same, no matter what we promise" (as it's often the case when corruption runs rampant). It could be about religion, race, ethnicity, social status, anything that allows one to single out a group and say "Your life sucks because of THEM!" prompting a crusade against that group. Taking away religion could, at most, lead to increased suicide rates, because the only hope the poorest people out there have in their lives might often be in religion. People need hope in their lives. It's understandable that they come towards those who offer it, especially if they have none by themselves. And life in the Middle East is pretty hopeless, with survival often hinging on the village well not running dry and harvest being good enough to survive for a little longer.

[MP-Ryan]

I have a few thoughts.

First, I'm not going to make this about religion or lack thereof until there is some actual evidence that suggests it is.  The fact that he is a "militant atheist" and the victims were all Muslims isn't a compelling reason to jump to hate crime.

I am also dismayed by the number of progressives harkening to the Charlie Hebdo reaction and calling on all atheists to denounce these as a parallel to the number of people who called on all Muslims to denounce the Charlie Hebdo massacre.  I realize they are doing this to illustrate a point, but why the hell are we lowering ourselves to the level of people who are willing to brand an entire religion with the brush to make this point?

Among all the politics, three innocent people are dead.  We should care because they were people and they were murdered.  All other concerns are playing politics at this point.  If it turns out that the religion of the victims was a motivating factor, then charges as a hate crime are appropriate.

[Mr. Vega]

We don't think they actually owe a group apology. It's their own hypocrisy that now compels them to make it.

Although they (by which I mean the NA's) might also want to think about randomly antagonizing the Islamophobes who are jumping on the atheist bandwagon due to their attacks on Islam. That might help. The accusations that the atheist movement is being hijacked by old colonial jingoism are only going to increase.

[Lorric]

Although they (by which I mean the NA's) might also want to think about randomly antagonizing the Islamophobes who are jumping on the atheist bandwagon due to their attacks on Islam. That might help.

What's an NA?

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying you think they should start antagonising, or they're already antagonising and should stop?

[Luis Dias]

We don't think they actually owe a group apology. It's their own hypocrisy that now compels them to make it.

Ridiculous. Here, have some Sam Harris telling you what's really going on regarding these shootings:https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/sam-harris-on-the-chapel-hill-murders/

Also, interesting to know that the murderer is actually someone who professed more respect towards Muslims than Christians, for he as someone belonging to a minority himself could relate to the persecution of them. Funny that isn't it. But lets not stop righteous campaigns against those bad atheists with things like facts or proper research into these matters, that would be a waste of a good time for slandering.

I won't forget the incredible rethoric advanced against atheists in this affair. The more I know the more disgusted I become.

[InsaneBaron]

We don't think they actually owe a group apology. It's their own hypocrisy that now compels them to make it.

Ridiculous. Here, have some Sam Harris telling you what's really going on regarding these shootings:https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2015/02/18/sam-harris-on-the-chapel-hill-murders/

Also, interesting to know that the murderer is actually someone who professed more respect towards Muslims than Christians, for he as someone belonging to a minority himself could relate to the persecution of them. Funny that isn't it. But lets not stop righteous campaigns against those bad atheists with things like facts or proper research into these matters, that would be a waste of a good time for slandering.

I won't forget the incredible rethoric advanced against atheists in this affair. The more I know the more disgusted I become.

I'm disgusted and I'm not even an atheist. It seems any group you name, there's a pack of enemies waiting for just one member to go off the rails so they can have a media feeding frenzy. Let no crisis go to waste, right?

[jr2]

Politics.  It's everywhere.  We need to get the politics out of everything not politics.  And then get the politics out of politics, as well. 

[An4ximandros]

Our enemies shall talk themselves to death, and we will bury them in their own confusion.

[InsaneBaron]

Politics.  It's everywhere.  We need to get the politics out of everything not politics.  And then get the politics out of politics, as well. 

2nded.