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Offline Sandwich

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Re: I believe in God....
Reply #20 on: October 10, 2002, 08:39:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by Star Dragon
It's just that I'm glad he's not a modler...

God - "Hey guys I got these great models I've been working on... Real Planets!"

Community - "Great! when will we be able to download it?"

God - "Oh in a day or too..."

Community - "Awesome!"

wait a sec... that's like 8 billion years!!!
:(



:lol:
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill
 

Offline CP5670

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Reply #21 on: October 10, 2002, 08:41:00 am
Well, the thing is that these things mentioned in the Bible (or any other religious text) are so incredibly obscure that they could be interpreted as just about anything. (which is a lucky thing for the religious guys) Who knows, perhaps it is an account of how god created a computer game in that period. :D

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if scrawny nerds have the better survibility rate then scrawny nerds is what we'll get.


That's because they do! :p :D
 

Offline Sandwich

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Reply #22 on: October 10, 2002, 08:46:40 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Well, the thing is that these things mentioned in the Bible (or any other religious text) are so incredibly obscure that they could be interpreted as just about anything. (which is a lucky thing for the religious guys) Who knows, perhaps it is an account of how god created a computer game in that period. :D



That's because they do! :p :D


Meh, you wanna refute, then refute - don't just stand there and say that anything can be interpreted in any way you want - on an absolute sense, everything is obscure. :doubt:
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill
 

Offline CP5670

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Reply #23 on: October 10, 2002, 08:48:26 am
Hey, if you want to make this a religious debate, I will be happy to oblige. :D ;7

Quote
Meh, you wanna refute, then refute - don't just stand there and say that anything can be interpreted in any way you want - on an absolute sense, everything is obscure.


Not just anything; the religious texts in particular, and I think you know that well.
 

Offline Sandwich

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Reply #24 on: October 10, 2002, 08:52:10 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Not just anything; the religious texts in particular, and I think you know that well.


Ok then, how do you de-obscure something and discover what it truly means? You plug in a hypothesis, a set of datum, or whatever, and follow that until you can prove it wrong - or right.

So using the above hypothesis, let's start. :D
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill
 

Offline CP5670

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Reply #25 on: October 10, 2002, 08:53:43 am
The problem is, you have about a hundred other distinct hypotheses that work just as well. :p :D
 

Offline Kamikaze

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Reply #26 on: October 10, 2002, 09:00:32 am
Although I don't have time to read all of Knight Templar's stuff I can see that he seems to be making the same mistakes as my peers.

Firstly evolution is not caused by a need to adapt, it just ssems like it. THe word "adapt" and "evolve" are abused in modern culture. Anyway, instead of adapting evolutiong is when a little change here or there (random mutations) happen to make a species survive better.
These then mount to form a distinction we call "species", just a large set of differences. In fact you and me are different "species", but the difference is so miniscule we don't recognize it as a "species" difference.

btw: don't try to interpret the bible anyway.. if some cosmic being beyond our existence wrote it we won't understand it anyway :nod:

My religious friend/idiot/whatever thinks that evolution is "adapting" and also that species are things that can reproduce with each other and only each other ... odd
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman
 

Offline Sandwich

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Reply #27 on: October 10, 2002, 09:01:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
The problem is, you have about a hundred other distinct hypotheses that work just as well. :p :D


So why does the Bible correlate so well with the scientific facts, when the Bible came along a few thousand years before people knew the Earth was round?
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill
 

Offline CP5670

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Reply #28 on: October 10, 2002, 09:06:05 am
For every correlation with scientific facts, you also have ten things that are completely against science. :p

The simple fact is that people cling to religion not at all because it makes logical sense -  all attempts to rationally justify it understandably fail - but because of a general mental resistance to change, the temporary removal of uncertainty and of course the purposes of an ultimate government.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2002, 09:18:56 am by 296 »
 

Offline Sandwich

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Reply #29 on: October 10, 2002, 09:10:41 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
For every correlation with scientific facts, you also have ten things that are completely against science. :p


Trying to keep this centered around the whole creation/evolution/origin-of-the-universe debate, what in that framework doesn't correlate?
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill
 

Offline CP5670

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Reply #30 on: October 10, 2002, 09:12:14 am
uh...the concept of "creation," for one thing. :p (you cannot "create" something out of absolutely nothing)
 

Offline Sandwich

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Reply #31 on: October 10, 2002, 09:21:54 am
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
(you cannot "create" something out of absolutely nothing)


Agreed. Although I'm sure we differ in that I believe that God is certainly capable of such a feat, I also believe that God did not create the universe through what would be termed, no mater how far our knowledge goes, "magic" (remember _that_ discussion? :p) - I believe He followed the physical rules governing our space/time.

But this whole thing is not something I'm trying to shove down anyone's throat, forcing them to accept the statement or be burned at the stake - hardly. I am simply presenting an intruiging correlation of Science with the Bible concerning "the beginning". Take it as you will; personally I find it fascinating. :D
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill
 

Offline Levyathan

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Reply #32 on: October 10, 2002, 10:11:29 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze
These then mount to form a distinction we call "species", just a large set of differences. In fact you and me are different "species", but the difference is so miniscule we don't recognize it as a "species" difference.


Not really. A species is defined as a set of individuals which have the ability to reproduce creating a fertile offspring.
 

Offline Carl

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Reply #33 on: October 10, 2002, 10:23:42 am
it's amazing how often i hear of people coming up with this excact same "new" theory. it's nearly as old as darwin himself.
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Offline Galemp

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Reply #34 on: October 10, 2002, 01:19:10 pm
What I find amusing is that the entire branch of medical science is working against evolution. Doctors are giving all the people with diseases, genetic defects, bad genes etc. a chance to procreate and pass down genes which otherwise would have been lost in Natural Selection.

Oh, and by practicing abstinance, you are furthering the extinction of the human race. ;7
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Offline wEvil

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Reply #35 on: October 10, 2002, 01:28:03 pm
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Oh, and by practicing abstinance, you are furthering the extinction of the human race. ;7


Which is actually a good thing, everything considered.
 

Offline Bobboau

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Reply #36 on: October 10, 2002, 01:30:19 pm
no this is compasion, wich before we were so good at keeping people alive was one of our best surival instincts, enableing you to gain and retain allies, and/or mates, and  also good at giveing you're childeren a better chance at survival/reproducton.
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Offline CP5670

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Reply #37 on: October 10, 2002, 01:30:38 pm
Quote
But this whole thing is not something I'm trying to shove down anyone's throat, forcing them to accept the statement or be burned at the stake - hardly. I am simply presenting an intruiging correlation of Science with the Bible concerning "the beginning". Take it as you will; personally I find it fascinating.


That is perfectly fine. :D (it only annoys me when people start to claim that their religion is more rational than science :p; not talking about anyone here)

Quote
Not really. A species is defined as a set of individuals which have the ability to reproduce creating a fertile offspring.


That would include the whole universe, though. :D

Quote
Oh, and by practicing abstinance, you are furthering the extinction of the human race.


abstinence is good; it is the reasoning behind it that I do not like. :p We will have cloning soon enough, though. :D

Quote
no this is compasion, wich before we were so good at keeping people alive was one of our best surival instincts, enableing you to gain and retain allies, and/or mates, and also good at giveing you're childeren a better chance at survival/reproducton.


The children will eventually evolve into something else anyway though in most cases, so it would not really make a difference. :p :D
 

Offline Bobboau

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Reply #38 on: October 10, 2002, 01:37:35 pm
"That would include the whole universe, though. "
how so?

"The children will eventually evolve into something else anyway though in most cases, so it would not really make a difference. "
not if they get eaten by a saber tooth cat that you and you're tribe could have fought off but didn't becase you didn't care about them
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Offline CP5670

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Reply #39 on: October 10, 2002, 01:43:36 pm
Quote
how so?


The whole universe is made up for various parts that all reproduce over time. (even something like a rock breaking into pieces is reproduction) Actually, the universe is a large organism in itself as well. :D Basically, there are no discrete distinctions between the organisms in the universe.

Quote
though in most cases, so it would not really make a difference. "
not if they get eaten by a saber tooth cat that you and you're tribe could have fought off but didn't becase you didn't care about them


I didn't even know that such an animal exists/existed. :p Anyway, what I meant was that they will evolve into something new over some millions of years anyway; that cannot be stopped no matter what we do. (of course, that "something new" can be different from what you might be thinking of :D)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2002, 01:46:57 pm by 296 »
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