Author Topic: Blockading a Node  (Read 8647 times)

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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Now there's a question. In Iwar2, popping out of a LaG into occupied realspace makes the new arrival go boom. That's the whole point of portcullis/spider devices.

Does FS allow for ships to know if there's mass on the other side of the subspace tunnel? How much do nodes really matter? Are they the ONLY possible jump, or are they the BEST possible jump? Does space around the node offer the same jump possibilities but with higher risks/lower efficiencies?

If its the only possible jump parking a cap in the node effectively locks the node and makes blockade running foolish at best. Not much of a mission to be had there. i'm I correct that the mission you want to do involves running the blockade? If so, bombed cargo containers, decommed cargo ships and englobing is probably your best option.
 


I always thought that there's some sort of gravitational wash in subspace that affects ships within the node... I think it;d be more likely that the arriving ship and the blocker would both be destroyed.

 

Offline diamondgeezer

Quote
Originally posted by nuclear1
Illegal civvie blockade?

Probably might have them hijack some GTVA cruisers (refers to Derelict mission "The Number of the Beast) such as a few Fenrises, Leviathans, or Aeoluses.


D'oh, you beat me to it :cool:

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14


I always thought that there's some sort of gravitational wash in subspace that affects ships within the node... I think it;d be more likely that the arriving ship and the blocker would both be destroyed.


Well yeah, unless the blocker was sufficiently massive or well shielded. In Iwar2, a portcullis puts an Linear Displacement Shield across the opening, while a spider physically "caps" it. I belive in the first IWar, COSA used Neutronium ore as a LAG blocker (high gravity neturonium adds gravitation shear to the LaG, keeping capsule ingress/egress from working).

That's why I said use hulks/decommed ships to block the node if its an incoming blockade, or "disabled" civilian ships with crew if its an outgoing blockade. Ideally, you'd blockade both ends of the tunnel, so that you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that NOTHING would be coming through from either direction.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Quote
Originally posted by nuclear1
Illegal civvie blockade?

Probably might have them hijack some GTVA cruisers (refers to Derelict mission "The Number of the Beast) such as a few Fenrises, Leviathans, or Aeoluses.

But that's just me:D


This could fit better into the current storyline than you realize...:nod:
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Offline Alikchi

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Originally posted by Stunaep
why not blockade a node by simply putting a capship inside it.


Why not just strap subspace engines on a bomb and send it through :p
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go HW style and make a big, disordered, glob of ships.  Then put the cargo mines in the middle of the node.
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Offline silverwolf

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Originally posted by Alikchi


Why not just strap subspace engines on a bomb and send it through :p


*flashes back to when the luci blew*
hehe you get the picture
quote derelict: I don't think subspace likes explosionsuin quote

If your sending a bomb if you mean helios size scr** that  go meson :devil:

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by nuclear1
Illegal civvie blockade?

Probably might have them hijack some GTVA cruisers (refers to Derelict mission "The Number of the Beast) such as a few Fenrises, Leviathans, or Aeoluses.

But that's just me:D


No disrespect to civilians, but um... they'd be hard pressed to get onboard a Navy vessel under any circumstances. Actually HIJACKING them is even less likely.
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Offline Black Wolf

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Well, it depends - if the cruisers had a few sympathetic crewers on board, they'd have a chance :).
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Offline mikhael

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I'm going to make a big assumption: GTVA ships are like modern US Navy ships.

Despite what the movies say, you'd have to have considerably more than "a few sympathetic crewers" on board to take the ship, neutralise the now-hostile crewers, and run the ship themselves until a properly trained civilian crew can come aboard.

Its just not going to happen on any sizeable sort of vessel.
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Offline diamondgeezer

Take a valuable hostage and order the crew of the ship to get off. Or, take the captain hostage when nobody's looking, and make him order the crew off the ship.

*taps side of head*

They all come from up here, my monkey pal!

 
Grab the ship while its in dry dock, thats how the civvies captured most of those cruisers in Derelict (the others were pirate vessels).  There'd be a skeleton, if any, crew aboard, and the place would be swarming with civilian mechanics and work crews.

 

Offline mikhael

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Hrm... lets logic this out. One guy's life for the BIG HARDWARE WITH THE BEAM CANNONS. I'm betting the crew will cheerfully watch the captains brains get ventilated. If they did ANYTHING ELSE, it'd be courts-martial for every last one of them.

From my experience in the Navy, unless the ship is in dry-dock, they are very well secured against the civilian tech teams that repair them, and a full security contingent is still on board at all times. Even in dry dock (where, realistically, the ship isn't going anywhere) there's still a pretty decent security contingent about. Even so, ships are only docked/drydocked like that in secured ports, where you have the physical security of the installation to deal with on top of the ships security.

It just won't wash.
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Offline mikhael

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--dunno where this came from *SNIP*--
« Last Edit: December 13, 2002, 02:03:47 am by 440 »
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Well, it might happen on a really backwater system like Tau Sigma, where it obviously would be impossible in Vega or Beta Aquilae.  Since GTVA presence in remote systems is tiny, they might not have the personnel to safely guard their ships from civilian hijack while docked.  The military environment on the edges of the known frontier can't really compare to much in modern navies...unless they're based in Antarctica.

 

Offline diamondgeezer

What he said.

How about this scenario, mik: a remote outpost (such as TS), where the only military presence is the Lonewolf, her crew, and your four-man fighter wing (and maybe a few admins and techs, but not many). Are you gonna stop hundreds of determined civilians? Are you gonna take responsibility for killing said hundreds of civilians if that's what it takes to stop them? Perhaps you're under orders not to kill civvies - has been known to happen, you know. Perhaps you're sympathetic towards their cause. Perhaps they've slipped you a bundle of small, green pieces of paper and asked you to be looking out the porthole when they sneak past your guard post.

Want more? OK - perhaps they locked themselves in the engine room and bridge, and there's no other acess to the ships systems (on older ships, admitidly). Maybe they flooded the ship with knock-out gas? The list goes on...

And frankly, mik, you'd make one ****e police negotiator. You'd let the hostage get scrubbed, just like that? Can you really see U.S military personel (for the sake of argument) letting their c/o get killed, saying "sorry sir, I can't let you in there, even if you have the captain hostage..."?

OK, so this is probably not going to happen in the average GTVA millitary base, but for the Derelict campaign, set in a remote, relatively unsecured system, it was both plausible and a good bit of plot, so :p

 

Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
What he said.

How about this scenario, mik: a remote outpost (such as TS), where the only military presence is the Lonewolf, her crew, and your four-man fighter wing (and maybe a few admins and techs, but not many). Are you gonna stop hundreds of determined civilians?

Yes. LOCK THE DAMN AIRLOCKS. Then pop your umbilicals and go to a standoff distance. Start plinking NOW CONSIDERED HOSTILE civilian ships that decide to come after you.

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Are you gonna take responsibility for killing said hundreds of civilians if that's what it takes to stop them?

Lets see. courts martial for giving up my very expensive ship or board of inquiry for killing some pirates... hrm... I dunno.. oh yeah, KILL THE DAMN PIRATES.


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Perhaps you're under orders not to kill civvies - has been known to happen, you know.

Piracy is not legal. Attempting to hijack a military vessel makes you hostile. Kill, disable, disarm, or otherwise prevent the pirates from taking your vessel.

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 Perhaps you're sympathetic towards their cause. Perhaps they've slipped you a bundle of small, green pieces of paper and asked you to be looking out the porthole when they sneak past your guard post.

Did you miss the whole airlock concept: you have to get a whole crew of armed pirates past the locks on the ship, into the corridors and then they have to fight their way past the ships crew, though sealed/compartmentalised spaces DESIGNED TO STOP BOARDERS FROM HAVING EASY ACCESS TO THE SHIPS INTERIOR and then take over the ship FROM THE ARMED, TRAINED AND DETERMINED MILITARY PRESENCE.

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Want more? OK - perhaps they locked themselves in the engine room and bridge, and there's no other acess to the ships systems (on older ships, admitidly).

See previous note. They had to get aboard somehow.

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 Maybe they flooded the ship with knock-out gas? The list goes on...

This wouldn't work on a terrestrial naval vessel because of the way the ventilation system works. Why would they forget how to build compartmentalised ventilations systems in the future?

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And frankly, mik, you'd make one ****e police negotiator. You'd let the hostage get scrubbed, just like that? Can you really see U.S military personel (for the sake of argument) letting their c/o get killed, saying "sorry sir, I can't let you in there, even if you have the captain hostage..."?

Billion dollar vessel armed with deadly weapons capable of killing thousands vs one man. The military is not run like the police. Try joining up, you'll find that out quite quickly.

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OK, so this is probably not going to happen in the average GTVA millitary base, but for the Derelict campaign, set in a remote, relatively unsecured system, it was both plausible and a good bit of plot, so :p

Civilians on a remote military base anywhere. They have to get aboard. They have to defeat the crew. They have to do all of this before the weapons, engines and computer systems are scuttled.

This might happen in some universe where militaries don't have the competency of the average minerally deficient rock. Its not plausible in the real world, and its not plausible in a future with a military organisation like the GTVA. What? they forgot how warfare, guerilla tactics, piracy, etc work over the next several hundred years? Maybe they forgot how to read? Perhaps they disbanded the military and put together a new fleet command and staff from a pool of people selected for their complete lack of knowledge of the military?

Come on. Its not impossible, but it isn't so easy that they're going to take "a few Fenrises, Leviathans, or Aeoluses". I'll grant you a transport or a freighter. Maybe even a science vessel. A warship? Not bloody likely.
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Offline diamondgeezer

Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
PIRATES... Piracy... pirates... pirates...

Quote
Originally posted by DG
Civilians


*points at difference*

In Derelict, the Lonewolf was taken over by civilian workers. To much time playing :V: games for you, mik - you're pirate obsessed :)

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This wouldn't work on a terrestrial naval vessel because of the way the ventilation system works. Why would they forget how to build compartmentalised ventilations systems in the future?


The Lonewolf was an old, worn-out Fenris. Perhaps it didn't have a properly working ventilation system... Also, a small crew (and since the ship was under repair at the time, probably not of them many onboard), maybe they'd notice until it's too late?

Also, remember the Derelict mission - you were not allowed to fire on the civilian vessels. The local millitary bosses didn't want a bloody riot on their hands. Presumably, the guys inside were under the same orders - or maybe the guy guarding the airlock just plain couldn't bring himself to massacre a gang of civs, if they gave him the choice to get out the way or open fire. In Derelict, they were basically on a knife edge - a civilian shot by a guard could have sparked off a system-wide riot. Thousands could have been killed, starting with the millitary presence.

Lastly,

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Try joining up, you'll find that out quite quickly


I fully intend to, and I may well. I'll let you know what happens.

 

Offline CP5670

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Also, remember the Derelict mission - you were not allowed to fire on the civilian vessels. The local millitary bosses didn't want a bloody riot on their hands. Presumably, the guys inside were under the same orders - or maybe the guy guarding the airlock just plain couldn't bring himself to massacre a gang of civs, if they gave him the choice to get out the way or open fire. In Derelict, they were basically on a knife edge - a civilian shot by a guard could have sparked off a system-wide riot. Thousands could have been killed, starting with the millitary presence.


That mission was kind of silly, since the "civilians" practically had a small fleet under their command; no amount of civilian fervor is going to let them seize what they had there. For example, a Fenris is supposed to have a crew of around 250; there could be a mutiny, but you would need many of the men on your side. If most of the ship's crew is loyal, it is essentially impossible for the civilians/pirates to do anything. (even if they somehow manage to get inside, they have no training, no organization and no equipment and will probably be rounded up without even a fight) Besides, it is unrealistic in the extreme; have you ever heard of any warship in real life taken over by some local mob of brigands? :D To have a revolt like this, you need the local military presence on your side.

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Come on. Its not impossible, but it isn't so easy that they're going to take "a few Fenrises, Leviathans, or Aeoluses". I'll grant you a transport or a freighter. Maybe even a science vessel. A warship? Not bloody likely.


Exactly. :yes:
« Last Edit: December 13, 2002, 03:08:36 am by 296 »

 

Offline Black Wolf

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DG, have you been reading my script? You've not only got the remote outpost, old ships, sympatetic crewers, delicate ploitical situation (system wide riot) all done, but you've also given me a few more ideas :). Thank you :yes:
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