[mikhael]

Originally posted by venom2506

Btw, the galactic black hole in the center of our galaxy ( the singularity itself I mean ), is supposedly 3 million kilometers  wide, which is, after all, really small (  less than 4 times the sun if I'm not mistaken )

Venom's right.

That's pretty damned huge for a singularity, though. When you consider that Sol could only create a singularity slightly smaller than Mercury, a singularity four times the size of the Sol's current size is GIGANTIC.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Carl
but how do you know it's wrong? have you ever been to a black hole? are a professional astronomer?

how? coz some people can read what real astronomers say about it maybe? And I think they know their job

[Cannikin]

Originally posted by  venom2506
 
Btw, the galactic black hole in the center of our galaxy ( the singularity itself I mean ), is supposedly 3 million kilometers wide, which is, after all, really small ( less than 4 times the sun if I'm not mistaken )

Er, singularities by definition are mere points in spacetime and have absolutely NO size at all, thus making any discussion of them having size is about as meaningless as it gets.

This pulled from http://www.dictionary.com
A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.

When you're speaking of black holes having size you can only refer to the mass of it or the size of the event horizon which is where nothing can escape from it.

[Styxx]

Disregarding any comments about scientific accuracy, the pic is pretty damn good! How did you do it?

[Nico]

Originally posted by Cannikin


Er, singularities by definition are mere points in spacetime and have absolutely NO size at all, thus making any discussion of them having size is about as meaningless as it gets.

This pulled from http://www.dictionary.com
A point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.

When you're speaking of black holes having size you can only refer to the mass of it or the size of the event horizon which is where nothing can escape from it.

they do have a size, and for informations about space stuff I sure don't look into the dictionary, mostly when datas about the subject change every month, so don't go at me.
and if you translate "a point" with "no size", well... I can't help you.

[Star Dragon]

     Anyway while searching for backgrounds I did come across many Astro sites that do say there is a Black Hole Super Cluster (meaning multiple) near the center of teh galaxy and that they range in sizes up to (and including) a solar system... Now I read this like 4 or 5 months ago but I'm sure I could find it again if you really want me to look (better yet look for your self and then tell us)

  I thought that was incredible, but also a bit scary... So the human race in say 4 billion years has to leave sol cause of our sun going nova, bu then has to find a place that hasn't gotten eaten by the BH's ? The're screwed... (Unless they time travel back and settle other galaxies)... Cuase we're all full chief!

[Cannikin]

Originally posted by venom2506


and if you translate "a point" with "no size", well... I can't help you.

Wow, you gotta show me how to measure the volume of a point sometime.

And no, I wasn't trying to insult you in my last post. That's just what I've always learned about black holes (in many books I've read) and that's what I'm sticking with.

Of course no one can really tell anyone that they're wrong about singularities until they've seen one (which will never happen).

[Cannikin]

Btw, am I the only person having problems seeing the pic? It refuses to show up for some reason.

[Reaper]

Originally posted by Cannikin
Btw, am I the only person having problems seeing the pic? It refuses to show up for some reason.

No, i'm having problems also

[Cannikin]

Oh and venom, allow me to point to some references here:

This one pretty much sums up the reason why it has no size:

From: http://image.gsfc.nasa.gov/poetry/ask/a11334.html

We are guided in our understanding of the interior of black holes by the theory of general relativity developed by Albert Einstein, and in particular, the mathematics of the complete, relativistic equation for gravity and space- time. General relativity predicts that once the surface of a body passes inside its event horizon, the nuclear forces that once held-up its compressed stellar matter as, for instance, a neutron star, are completely overwhelmed by the force of gravity which acts in only one direction..further compression. At the horizon, neutronized matter passes into a pure gas of individual quarks. As the quark gas continues to compress into smaller and smaller sub-horizon volumes, these zero-mass, point-like particles are crushed closer and closer together so that their inter-quark 'strong nuclear force' continues to plummet. Eventually near the singularity, you end up with a body where all of the constituent quarks and gluon fields occupy a vanishing volume, but since their total field energy remains non-zero, you end up with a classical 'infinite energy DENSITY' singularity. There are many complications to this, but thye bottom line is that neutron star matter is only a transition phase with a fleeting lifetime.

From: http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html

The Singularity: At the center of a black hole lies the singularity, where matter is crushed to infinite density, the pull of gravity is infinitely strong, and spacetime has infinite curvature. Here it's no longer meaningful to speak of space and time, much less spacetime. Jumbled up at the singularity, space and time cease to exist as we know them.

From: http://spaceboy.nasda.go.jp/note/kagaku/e/kag103_tokuiten_e.html

Black holes occur at the point where time and space become indefinable... But having bent space to a certain point it must inevitably reach a singular point (where time and space become indefinable). This is known as the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorem. It explains the destruction of space-time by gravity, and black holes are singular points enclosed by "event horizon"... At a central point, gravity becomes infinite, time and space are bent, and concepts of time and space, as we know them, become irrelevant

From: http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/010912a.html

This is indeed difficult to grasp. Actually at the center of a black hole spacetime has infinite curvature and matter is crushed to infinite density under the pull of infinite gravity. At a singularity, space and time cease to exist as we know them. The laws of physics as we know them break down at a singularity, so it's not really possible to envision something with infinite density and zero volume.

From:http://www.cakes.mcmail.com/StarTrek/singular.htm

1.7 Singularity.

An area of space so dense the degenerate neutronic forces/pressures can not withstand the combined force per unit area of the gravitons from the stellar mass. This creates an implosion whereby the collapse only stops when the body occupies a space of infinitesimal dimension.

From: http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/glossary/black_hole.html

The crushing weight of constituent matter falling in from all sides compresses the dying star to a point of zero volume and infinite density called the singularity.

Oh and last but not least:

From: any dictionary or math book

A Point: A dimensionless geometric object having no properties except location.

[Cannikin]

Sorry all for spamming the topic with all this technical stuff.

I finally saw the pic itself and it looks good! The accretion disk should appear like a big blurred mass near the event horizon, but towards the outside there should be a distinct stream(s) that indicate that the matter is being pulled in.

[Nico]

zll your exemples can be resumed in one little sentence that you find about each time: center of the black hole
when you talk about Earth you don't talk only about its center right? I've read many articles about the size of a black hole, and they all agreed to say they ranged from about 3 to 3 000 000 km wide ( guess the "3" part is just a coincidence ), and I believe them, so no need to argue furthermore

[Nobilis Draco]

Originally posted by Styxx
Disregarding any comments about scientific accuracy, the pic is pretty damn good! How did you do it?

Thanks! I used spline draw to model the cross-section of the disk then lathed it so the disk would have the proper shape it's hard to see it in that shot. the texture was 85% photoshop. I made a swirly map and applyed it planar.  the rest such as color and luminosity where done with procedural gradiants. the X- ray jets where Volumetric Lights.

[Bobboau]

so when you are talking about the "size" of a blak hole you're talking about the event horizon assosiated with it,

and the material just about to get sucked in should be glaringly bright, other than that it looks great

[Carl]

YEAH! WHO CARES IF IT LOOKS GOOD, IT'S ONLY GOOD ART IF IT MAKES SCIENTIFIC SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111111111111111

[Anaz]

Looks cool, nice to see ND on the HLPBB...

[Bobboau]

I think it would look better as well as being more acurate,
what am I a freak or something

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Bobboau
I think it would look better as well as being more acurate,
what am I a freak or something

No, you're not, Bob. I feel the same way.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Carl
YEAH! WHO CARES IF IT LOOKS GOOD, IT'S ONLY GOOD ART IF IT MAKES SCIENTIFIC SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111111111111111111

"remembers about a sentence - That ship makes no sense-"
Oh yeah! You really are one to talk, congrats, at least, you do have some nerves

[wEvil]

it looks nice although i doubt you'd be able to see the black speck in the middle before your optic nerves burnt out - and try to make the jets more fiery...imagine that matter getting blasted out of the poles by magnetic fields at a good fraction of the speed of light.